they haven't been able to testing. they haven't been able to get the money, they haven't get their manufacturing and distribution set up that this could be esh huge game changer while we wait for the vaccines. we at number ten got to grips with it. i organised a meeting with patrick vallance, oxford and they said straightaway, yes, we should be doing this. yes it could be a game changer. yes, we have dropped another massive ball by not working on this for the past three months. essentially, it should all happen from january. but once we made the decision in late march to go with plan b and c plan b involves testing and all these different things, testing. at that point we should have been putting money into this whole lateral flow and lamp stuff in march, april. if we had done than, then we would have had,

then september would have been completely different because we would have had literally millions of tests and fast results. ten, 20 minute results. because we only realised that dh and other parts of the system had dropped the ball again in latejuly, essentially, and i only had the first meeting on that roughly speaking on the 25th of july, all of that time again was wasted. so then you have been playing catch up in august, september and october to build all these things that should have been in place before september. one of the reasons the english death figures _ one of the reasons the english death figures were — one of the reasons the english death figures were very _ one of the reasons the english death figures were very high _ one of the reasons the english death figures were very high at _ one of the reasons the english death figures were very high at the - one of the reasons the english death figures were very high at the start. figures were very high at the start of this— figures were very high at the start of this is— figures were very high at the start of this is the — figures were very high at the start of this is the fact _ figures were very high at the start of this is the fact that _ figures were very high at the start of this is the fact that untested i of this is the fact that untested people — of this is the fact that untested peogte were _ of this is the fact that untested people were sent _ of this is the fact that untested people were sent back- of this is the fact that untested people were sent back into -

of this is the fact that untestedl people were sent back into care homes — people were sent back into care homes and _ people were sent back into care homes and they— people were sent back into care homes and they themselves - people were sent back into care | homes and they themselves got people were sent back into care - homes and they themselves got poorly and infected _ homes and they themselves got poorly and infected other— homes and they themselves got poorly and infected other people _ homes and they themselves got poorly and infected other people in _ homes and they themselves got poorly and infected other people in those - and infected other people in those care homes— and infected other people in those care homes and _ and infected other people in those care homes and a _ and infected other people in those care homes and a very— and infected other people in those care homes and a very large - and infected other people in those i care homes and a very large numbers of people _ care homes and a very large numbers of peogte dying — care homes and a very large numbers of peogte dying t0~ _ care homes and a very large numbers of people dying to. do _ care homes and a very large numbers of people dying to. do you _ care homes and a very large numbers of people dying to. do you have - care homes and a very large numbers of people dying to. do you have any i of people dying to. do you have any insight _ of people dying to. do you have any insight into— of people dying to. do you have any insight into how— of people dying to. do you have any insight into how that _ of people dying to. do you have any insight into how that decision - of people dying to. do you have any insight into how that decision was . insight into how that decision was taken? _ insight into how that decision was taken? was — insight into how that decision was taken? was number— insight into how that decision was taken? was number 10 _ insight into how that decision was taken? was number 10 and - insight into how that decision was taken? was number 10 and votel insight into how that decision was. taken? was number 10 and vote in that decision — taken? was number 10 and vote in that decision or— taken? was number 10 and vote in that decision or was _ taken? was number 10 and vote in that decision or was it _ taken? was number 10 and vote in that decision or was it entirely- taken? was number 10 and vote in that decision or was it entirely a i that decision or was it entirely a health— that decision or was it entirely a health department _ that decision or was it entirely a health department decision? i that decision or was it entirely ai health department decision? —— number— health department decision? —— number 10 _ health department decision? —— number 10 involved _ health department decision? —— numberio involved in- health department decision? —— number 10 involved in that- health department decision? —— - number 10 involved in that decision. that is— number 10 involved in that decision. that is one _ number 10 involved in that decision. that is one of— number 10 involved in that decision. that is one of the _ number 10 involved in that decision. that is one of the things— number 10 involved in that decision. that is one of the things i— number 10 involved in that decision. that is one of the things i find - that is one of the things i find shocking. when we found out, the prime minister saint a less polite version of, what on earth are you telling me? he came back after being ill, what on earth has happened with all these people in care homes? hancock told us in the cabinet room that people are going to be tested before they went back to care homes. what the hell happened? so before they went back to care homes. what the hell happened? 50 he what the hell happened? so he actually said — what the hell happened? so he actually said in _ what the hell happened? so he actually said in cabinet? - what the hell happened? so he actually said in cabinet? not i what the hell happened? so he actually said in cabinet? not in| actually said in cabinet? not in cabinet, in _ actually said in cabinet? not in cabinet, in the _ actually said in cabinet? not in cabinet, in the cabinet - actually said in cabinet? not in

cabinet, in the cabinet room. i actually said in cabinet? not in i cabinet, in the cabinet room. we were told categorically in march that people would be tested before they went back to care homes. we only subsequently found out that that hadn't happened. the government rhetoric was, it was complete nonsense. ratherthan rhetoric was, it was complete nonsense. rather than putting a shield around them, we sent them back to care homes.— back to care homes. thank you. that's extraordinary. _ back to care homes. thank you. that's extraordinary. we - back to care homes. thank you. that's extraordinary. we now. back to care homes. thank you. i that's extraordinary. we now have back to care homes. thank you. - that's extraordinary. we now have an mp had made — that's extraordinary. we now have an mp had made her— that's extraordinary. we now have an mp had made her maiden _ that's extraordinary. we now have an mp had made her maiden speech - that's extraordinary. we now have an mp had made her maiden speech last week and this is herfirst mp had made her maiden speech last week and this is her first select committee, so welcome to you. i week and this is her first select committee, so welcome to you. i hope the are committee, so welcome to you. i hope they are all _ committee, so welcome to you. i hope they are all as — committee, so welcome to you. i hope they are all as exciting _ committee, so welcome to you. i hope they are all as exciting and _ they are all as exciting and engaging as best. thank you for joining — engaging as best. thank you for joining us, — engaging as best. thank you for joining us, mr cummings. referred to failures— joining us, mr cummings. referred to failures and _ joining us, mr cummings. referred to failures and made apologies. is at a fair assessment however to say that there _ fair assessment however to say that there has— fair assessment however to say that there has been a wealth of expert

knowledge, even from university papers _ knowledge, even from university papers that have researched covid? there _ papers that have researched covid? there is _ papers that have researched covid? there is a _ papers that have researched covid? there is a wealth of expert knowledge and in sage themselves, they have _ knowledge and in sage themselves, they have discussed... they have said that — they have discussed... they have said that flights from china were not the — said that flights from china were not the only road for infected individuals to enter the uk. we now know— individuals to enter the uk. we now know that _ individuals to enter the uk. we now know that many cases were in fact from _ know that many cases were in fact from europe. sol know that many cases were in fact from europe. so i have this expert advice _ from europe. so i have this expert advice. quarantine measures weren't introduced _ advice. quarantine measures weren't introduced untiljune the 10th, and of course, — introduced untiljune the 10th, and of course, there was exempted countries — of course, there was exempted countries and people as well. it was advising _ countries and people as well. it was advising the prime minister and government to not hold the borders and on _ government to not hold the borders and on what basis?— and on what basis? there are essentially — and on what basis? there are essentially two _ and on what basis? there are essentially two phases. -

and on what basis? there are l essentially two phases. before and on what basis? there are - essentially two phases. before april and then from april. before april, the advice was completely... and i hope this discussed several times with the prime minister in number 10, he was told, we were all told repeatedly, the advice is not to close the borders, that essentially, it would have no effect. at this time, i think another kind of groupthink thing was basically racist towards closing the borders and blaming china and everything else, and i think that in retrospect was completely wrong. in the same way that in lots of things, you can't blame the prime minister directly, that was the official advice. the official advice was, categorically, closing the borders will have no effect. i inquired into

it, i said explicitly, will have no effect. i inquired into it, isaid explicitly, if will have no effect. i inquired into it, i said explicitly, if she'd log consider it like singapore and taiwan, we will need to have a good explanation to the public because they will be asking why on earth are we under these restrictions but the borders are open? after april, it's completely different story. once we switched to plan b, we were going to do test and trace, vaccines, whatever, fundamentally, there was no proper border policy because the prime minister never wanted a border policy. repeatedly, in meeting after meeting, i and others said, all we have to do is download the singapore or taiwan documents in english and post them here. we are imposing all these restrictions on people domestically, but everyone can see that people is coming in from infected areas, it is madness, where it is undermining the message we

should take this seriously. at that point, he was back to, lockdown was all a terrible mistake, i should have been the mayor in chores, the travel industry will be destroyed if we bring in a border policy. we said, there won't be a tourism industry in the autumn if there is a second wave, the logic is wrong. if we don't bring in a proper border policy now, we will have a second wave in the autumn and everything will be shot, forgetjust tourism. but he had the daily telegraph with their stupid campaign but he had the daily telegraph with theirstupid campaign in but he had the daily telegraph with their stupid campaign in the whole subject, he had tory mps going crackers about it at the same time. and essentially, at that point, he was in, we should never done lockdown, now i'm going to be, let's

open everything up. and we could never win that argument. is at open everything up. and we could never win that argument.- never win that argument. is at a fair assessment _ never win that argument. is at a fair assessment to _ never win that argument. is at a fair assessment to say - never win that argument. is at a fair assessment to say that - never win that argument. is at a i fair assessment to say that finance was prioritised over lives to encourage people to travel into this country— encourage people to travel into this country to— encourage people to travel into this country to rejuvenate the economy? was at _ country to rejuvenate the economy? was at prioritised?— was at prioritised? again, i would sa ou was at prioritised? again, i would say you have _ was at prioritised? again, i would say you have to — was at prioritised? again, i would say you have to distinguish. - was at prioritised? again, i would say you have to distinguish. it - say you have to distinguish. it would not be fair to blame the prime ministerfor would not be fair to blame the prime minister for what happened before march, because all the advice from sage was to do that. he definitely was not prioritising tourism over the economy injanuary was not prioritising tourism over the economy in january and was not prioritising tourism over the economy injanuary and february. i can say expressly myself, with the advice from the department of health, people will say, we are in not closing the borders by six of the prime minister did push on that injanuary and february, and it

would be wrong and unfair to say he prioritised the economy at that point. however, afterapril, it's a different story, and at that point, yes, he was prioritising the economy. i yes, he was prioritising the economy-— yes, he was prioritising the econom . , , economy. ifind this interesting, i was a schoolteacher _ economy. ifind this interesting, i was a schoolteacher and - economy. ifind this interesting, i was a schoolteacher and i - economy. ifind this interesting, i. was a schoolteacher and i remember in early— was a schoolteacher and i remember in earlyjanuary was a schoolteacher and i remember in early january 2020, was a schoolteacher and i remember in earlyjanuary 2020, when the first outbreak happens, we were discussing this in class and was explaining to people that there is an area _ explaining to people that there is an area called wuhan in china, this is happening here, and linking it to what _ is happening here, and linking it to what i _ is happening here, and linking it to what i teach, we spoke about if you are a _ what i teach, we spoke about if you are a prime — what i teach, we spoke about if you are a prime minister or government adviser, _ are a prime minister or government adviser, what steps would you be doing. _ adviser, what steps would you be doing. to — adviser, what steps would you be doing, to devote this kind of thinking _ doing, to devote this kind of thinking skills. my 13—year—old children— thinking skills. my 13—year—old children understood the concept of closing _ children understood the concept of closing the borders or stopping people — closing the borders or stopping people from entering the country. if that class _

people from entering the country. if that class of kids from edinburgh could _ that class of kids from edinburgh could understand that, is it a fair assessment to say that 13 euros kids were thinking more clearly than the government? my were thinking more clearly than the government?— were thinking more clearly than the government? my perspective on it is that hue government? my perspective on it is that huge parts _ government? my perspective on it is that huge parts of— government? my perspective on it is that huge parts of public— government? my perspective on it is that huge parts of public health... i that huge parts of public health... if you look at this as part of a general issue, huge parts of the public health in administrations in britain and america were captured by memes which were obviously ludicrous. they said, don't wear masks, mass could be dangerous, it turned out to be complete nonsense. for said don't close the borders. it is, as you say, common sense, nonsense. my opinion is, it's inarguable, obviously, we should have shut the borders injanuary, we should have done exactly what i

wanted on new year's eve, we should have said, that's it. yes, that has some disruption but the cost benefit ratio is just massively, some disruption but the cost benefit ratio isjust massively, massively out of whack. and at least it's worth a try, at least you tried it. what's the worst that's going to happen? if it doesn't work, you still have a pandemic to deal with, but we were dealing with a lockdown anyway. there was no fundamental good logic to not shutting the borders injanuary, in my opinion, and there was never any logic to it after april. to begin with, advice was confused, everything was a nightmare, but from the summer, fundamentally, the view was, we're pass it now, covid's history, which was obviously a terrible mistake. so to lead on from that, during this,

there _ to lead on from that, during this, there is— to lead on from that, during this, there is a — to lead on from that, during this, there is a call for tighter restrictions in devolved nations in terms _ restrictions in devolved nations in terms of— restrictions in devolved nations in terms of border who in the government had had that responsibility of achieving a four nations— responsibility of achieving a four nations agreement on this? essentially, the prime minister had responsibility for it, and there were numerous meetings in the cabinet room where we percolated up through the system. department for transport was not keen on doing it either because they were worried about tourism. fundamentally, that decision was made repeatedly in the cabinet, at number 10. and decision was made repeatedly in the cabinet, at number10._ cabinet, at number 10. and are you ofthe cabinet, at number 10. and are you of the opinion _ cabinet, at number 10. and are you of the opinion that _ cabinet, at number 10. and are you of the opinion that the _ cabinet, at number 10. and are you of the opinion that the views - cabinet, at number 10. and are you of the opinion that the views of - cabinet, at number 10. and are you of the opinion that the views of the | of the opinion that the views of the leaders _ of the opinion that the views of the leaders of— of the opinion that the views of the leaders of the devolved nations were listened _ leaders of the devolved nations were listened to— leaders of the devolved nations were listened to in respect of border policy? — listened to in respect of border policy? |— listened to in respect of border oli ? .., �* listened to in respect of border oli ? �* ., , listened to in respect of border oli ? ., , , policy? i can't really say if they were well _

policy? i can't really say if they were well listen _ policy? i can't really say if they were well listen to _ policy? i can't really say if they were well listen to or- policy? i can't really say if they were well listen to or not, - policy? i can't really say if they were well listen to or not, to i policy? i can't really say if they| were well listen to or not, to be honest. i don't recall directly what they were saying and i can't really remember much of the discussion around that question, i'm afraid. one last question, as i said, i am a teacher— one last question, as i said, i am a teacher and — one last question, as i said, i am a teacher and you have inspections that happen and you have four grades of kids— that happen and you have four grades of kids from _ that happen and you have four grades of kids from outstanding down to in need _ of kids from outstanding down to in need of— of kids from outstanding down to in need of help, how would you rate the government— need of help, how would you rate the government response on those four grades? _ government response on those four grades? i_ government response on those four arades? ., _ ,., ., grades? i would say some individual brilliance performances, _ grades? i would say some individual brilliance performances, overall- brilliance performances, overall system, total failure. brilliance performances, overall system, totalfailure. {lilia brilliance performances, overall system, total failure.— brilliance performances, overall system, total failure. system, totalfailure. 0k, a great four. system, totalfailure. 0k, a great four- 0k- — system, totalfailure. 0k, a great four. 0k. thank _ system, totalfailure. 0k, a great four. 0k. thank you. _ system, totalfailure. 0k, a great four. 0k. thank you. mr- system, totalfailure. 0k, a great. four. 0k. thank you. mr cummings, what ou four. 0k. thank you. mr cummings, what you told _ four. 0k. thank you. mr cummings, what you told us _ four. 0k. thank you. mr cummings, what you told us about _ four. 0k. thank you. mr cummings, what you told us about social- four. 0k. thank you. mr cummings, what you told us about social care i what you told us about social care is astonishing, you have said that

hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people in care homes, 1.5 million care staff, particular in february and march time, into april, where without ppe and testing. you sit on social media one of the worst feelings was the almost total absence of a serious plan for shielding or social care last march and there was a widespread solution we had a great plan, it turned out to not exist. why didn't number 10 move quickly to protect caravans, which everyone knew would be vulnerable? —— protect care homes spoke to? it vulnerable? -- protect care homes soke to? ., , vulnerable? -- protect care homes soketo? ,. ,, ., spoke to? it was discussed and we were told that _ spoke to? it was discussed and we were told that people _ spoke to? it was discussed and we were told that people would - spoke to? it was discussed and we were told that people would be - spoke to? it was discussed and we i were told that people would be sent back to care homes and we were told there was a plan for shooting. it turned out that none of those things were correct. we didn't really understand the catastrophe around people being sent back to care homes

who were already covid infected until april. we realise the lack of a shielding plan in roughly speaking the week of the ninth, i organised a meeting in downing street on thursday the 19th. we looked at it then and essentially we realise that, yet again, as soon as you poked holes in things, there was nothing there. what essentially happened then was that some officials said there's basically nothing we can do, we haven't got the tools, we can't get all of these databases to communicate. and there was this ludicrous situation of we're in to shielding letters without putting in the helpline number because the helpline number was basically not set up, they hadn't a call centre to answer anything. iand hadn't a call centre to answer anything. i and others said, then

what are these people going to do we are telling them to stay home and someone will help them, and they have to stay at home otherwise they will die, but should i'm not even giving them a number to call to say, we need food, medicine and other help. what will happen to these people? essentially, there was a lot of shrugging. thank goodness, a group of officials, led by this great woman who worked in the government digital service, she got a team together between the cabinet office and the digital service and clg, and there was an adviser in clg, and there was an adviser in clg, they got together and got together a team, and then they got a company involved and said, can you

make all these databases talk to each other so we can put the helpline out, and people can call it, we take details and get food delivered to them? it was a similar kind of thing to the data between faculty and the nhs, similarly another company worked with the team and they figured out a way to forge together these databases so you get started early. but when it was all done, in literally all nighters over the night of thursday the 19th, over the night of thursday the 19th, over the next few days, to try and get this ready. that is shielding. the comment i made _ that is shielding. the comment i made was — that is shielding. the comment i made was about social care as well. there _ made was about social care as well. there was— made was about social care as well. there was no— made was about social care as well. there was no plan for shielding or plan for— there was no plan for shielding or plan for social care. it was reported _ plan for social care. it was reported in the media in march and it was— reported in the media in march and

it was said — reported in the media in march and it was said to be heard immunity, protect— it was said to be heard immunity, protect the — it was said to be heard immunity, protect the economy and if that means— protect the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad. was that— means some pensioners die, too bad. was that the — means some pensioners die, too bad. was that the view held in government about— was that the view held in government about the _ was that the view held in government about the deaths of people from covid? _ about the deaths of people from covid? ., ,., ., ., covid? no. i never said that. that sto in covid? no. i never said that. that story in the _ covid? no. i never said that. that story in the sunday _ covid? no. i never said that. that story in the sunday times - covid? no. i never said that. that story in the sunday times had - story in the sunday times had invented meetings on the 12th, invented meetings on the 12th, invented a meeting on the 12th of march, which never occurred which you can see from the siege documents. it had an invented story about me in general and why i change my mind. it had this fake caught it actually caused huge trouble. i had people in my house threatening to kill me as a consequence of it. the journalist involved said it was the worst professional mistake of his career and the damage was done and it created this terrible impression that... you know, essentially we

don't care about people. but it was not, it wasn't true. taste don't care about people. but it was not, it wasn't true.— not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enou:h not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enough to — not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enough to have — not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enough to have a _ not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enough to have a plan _ not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enough to have a plan for - not, it wasn't true. we didn't care enough to have a plan for all - not, it wasn't true. we didn't care | enough to have a plan for all those people. _ enough to have a plan for all those people, four people in care homes or those _ people, four people in care homes or those receiving care at home. which are not— those receiving care at home. which are not generally suited for infection control. this is an infectious _ infection control. this is an infectious outbreak in care homes, people _ infectious outbreak in care homes, people come in and out, there are people _ people come in and out, there are people working there and there are visitors _ people working there and there are visitors i_ people working there and there are visitors. ., , people working there and there are visitors. . , , , ., ~ people working there and there are visitors. . , , , ., ,, , visitors. i literally speak up -- mike spoke — visitors. i literally speak up -- mike spoke to _ visitors. i literally speak up -- mike spoke to people - visitors. i literally speak up -- mike spoke to people who - visitors. i literally speak up -- | mike spoke to people who work visitors. i literally speak up -- - mike spoke to people who work in the cabinet office today said, when i look back, one of the biggest, biggest things that was terrible was that lack of a plan for that.- that lack of a plan for that. yeah. you talked _ that lack of a plan for that. yeah. you talked about _ that lack of a plan for that. yeah. you talked about what _ that lack of a plan for that. yeah. you talked about what happened | that lack of a plan for that. yeah. i you talked about what happened on march _

you talked about what happened on march the _ you talked about what happened on march the 17th last year, they could maximise _ march the 17th last year, they could maximise bed capacity by discharging every patient they could safely discharge. there was hardly any testing — discharge. there was hardly any testing of— discharge. there was hardly any testing of those people at that point — testing of those people at that point. there was an intention to test our— point. there was an intention to test our said there was an intention to test— test our said there was an intention to test trut— test our said there was an intention to test but it was not possible to test _ to test but it was not possible to test 0n — to test but it was not possible to test. on that major policy change of discharge, _ test. on that major policy change of discharge, was that change discussed between _ discharge, was that change discussed between ministers and advisers and nhs england? surely someone weighed the risks? _ nhs england? surely someone weighed the risks? it nhs england? surely someone weighed the risks? ., , nhs england? surely someone weighed the risks? . , ,. , , the risks? it was discussed in the cabinet room _ the risks? it was discussed in the cabinet room in _ the risks? it was discussed in the cabinet room in front _ the risks? it was discussed in the cabinet room in front of- the risks? it was discussed in the cabinet room in front of me - the risks? it was discussed in the cabinet room in front of me and l the risks? it was discussed in the i cabinet room in front of me and the prime minister. and the secretary of state, matt hancock and other officials. ~ ., , state, matt hancock and other officials. ~ . , ., officials. what were the views of the risks of _ officials. what were the views of the risks of doing _ officials. what were the views of the risks of doing this? - officials. what were the views of the risks of doing this? we - officials. what were the views of the risks of doing this? we were told they people _ the risks of doing this? we were told they people are _ the risks of doing this? we were told they people are going - the risks of doing this? we were told they people are going to - the risks of doing this? we were told they people are going to be| told they people are going to be tested. we thought, this sounds dangerous, are we sure? there was, eh, there is no alternative. because the whole original plan had gone so

wrong, we have got to try and free up wrong, we have got to try and free up beds in the nhs to deal with the wave that was coming. so the view was there is no alternative, but secondly we were assured that the people who are being sent out were being tested. it was only in april after the prime minister and i both ourselves had been ill, that we realise that what we were told would happen did not happen. i am sure some people were tested, but obviously many, many people who should have been tested were not tested and when back into care homes and infected people and it spread like wildfire in care homes. and also the care homes did not have the ppe they needed to deal with it and they did not have the testing for they did not have the testing for the stuff. so you had this cascading series of crises, domino effect rippling out from the system. that was not rippling out from the system. that was rrot seen _ rippling out from the system. that was not seen until—

rippling out from the system. that was not seen until september, in those _ was not seen until september, in those discussions between nhs england and ministers and advisers, what estimates were made of the impact _ what estimates were made of the impact of— what estimates were made of the impact of discharging positive cases? — impact of discharging positive cases? there must have been some estimates— cases? there must have been some estimates given. in a hospital setting, — estimates given. in a hospital setting, it is understood that nhs stuff were infecting each other. so there _ stuff were infecting each other. so there is— stuff were infecting each other. so there is going to be a level of infection _ there is going to be a level of infection. what levels of estimates were given about that? i infection. what levels of estimates were given about that?— were given about that? i was not liven an were given about that? i was not given any estimates _ were given about that? i was not given any estimates about - were given about that? i was not given any estimates about it. - were given about that? i was not given any estimates about it. in | were given about that? i was not i given any estimates about it. in the conversations i saw, the issue was never properly analysed or discussed in front of the prime minister, me and the cabinet secretary. that ma'or and the cabinet secretary. that major charge — and the cabinet secretary. that major charge on _ and the cabinet secretary. that major charge on discharge was made without— major charge on discharge was made without that information.— without that information. without a -lan without that information. without a [an to without that information. without a plan to deal— without that information. without a plan to deal with _ without that information. without a plan to deal with the _ without that information. without a plan to deal with the consequencesj plan to deal with the consequences for sure. ~ , ., i. ~' plan to deal with the consequences for sure. ~ , ., ,, ., , for sure. why do you think nobody commissioned _ for sure. why do you think nobody commissioned evidence _ for sure. why do you think nobody commissioned evidence on - for sure. why do you think nobody commissioned evidence on that i for sure. why do you think nobody i commissioned evidence on that topic? you have _

commissioned evidence on that topic? you have said, the secretary of state _ you have said, the secretary of state and — you have said, the secretary of state and the state of the department, is that the cause? that is my— department, is that the cause? that is my assumption. would you have expected _ is my assumption. would you have expected them to commission evidence on that— expected them to commission evidence on that before they put that decision— on that before they put that decision out there?- on that before they put that decision out there? . ,, ., decision out there? yeah. it kind of noes. .. decision out there? yeah. it kind of goes- -- everything _ decision out there? yeah. it kind of goes... everything is _ decision out there? yeah. it kind of goes... everything is connected. it| goes... everything is connected. it goes... everything is connected. it goes back to the whole disaster of testing. we did not have enough testing. we did not have enough testing and ppe. then it wasn't provided to care homes. my impression looking back was, that in the same way no one thought about how to produce the details of what to do on shielding and therefore i had this terrible meeting on the 19th on shielding, i think the whole thing around care homes was the same. it had fundamentally never been properly dug into. what happened was in the crisis environment of complete chaos of that week in the 16th, as we head it was locked down, people said we have no alternative than to do this. why

on earth hancock told us that everyone is going to be tested, i have absolutely no idea. but we all now know that it definitely did not happen. now know that it definitely did not ha en. ~ ., now know that it definitely did not ha en, . ., now know that it definitely did not hauen. ~ ., ., happen. who was there when you told ou that? i happen. who was there when you told you that? i cannot _ happen. who was there when you told you that? i cannot remember- you that? i cannot remember everyone- — you that? i cannot remember everyone- we _ you that? i cannot remember everyone. we stopped i you that? i cannot remember everyone. we stopped doing| you that? i cannot remember. everyone. we stopped doing the meetings in cobra and from kind of the week of the ninth, the daily covid meetings were all in the cabinet room. the cabinet was essentially not really relevant to any of these things in the march period. when i say the cabinet room, not referring to cabinet meetings at all. often the only people there where the prime minister, hancock and occasional other ministers that were relevant to that specific thing. this meeting was the prime minister, hancock, cabinet secretary, me, bunch of number ten stuff, some dh stuff, as on zoom.

possibly simon stephens there, possibly not i cannot remember. looking back at the whole thing after _ looking back at the whole thing after covid got into care homes, tooking — after covid got into care homes, looking back now on what we are discussing — looking back now on what we are discussing after covid receded into care homes, do you think the government including sage was taking that risk— government including sage was taking that risk of— government including sage was taking that risk of infection in care home seriously? — that risk of infection in care home seriously? i— that risk of infection in care home seriously? i want to take this into the context— seriously? i want to take this into the context of what you have said since. _ the context of what you have said since. is — the context of what you have said since. is it — the context of what you have said since, is it there was a sense that it did _ since, is it there was a sense that it did not — since, is it there was a sense that it did not matter because it was people — it did not matter because it was people at— it did not matter because it was people at the end of their lives and it did _ people at the end of their lives and it did not _ people at the end of their lives and it did not matter? two people at the end of their lives and it did not matter?— it did not matter? two different ruestions it did not matter? two different questions there. _ it did not matter? two different questions there. your _ it did not matter? two different questions there. your first i it did not matter? two different i questions there. your first question i think was essentially, was this taken seriously properly and everything else by number ten? the answer is obviously no. it was not

thought through properly, there was no proper plan. it is clear in retrospect that it was completely catastrophic as a situation with these people being sent home and tested and seeding in care homes. there is no other way to describe it than that. like all of these things, it wasn't deliberate, it was a function of the overall fact that the system was completely overwhelmed. the prime minister's views on covid and who it had killed was relevant but that was relevant in september, october. it was not relevant to this point, no.- relevant to this point, no. thank ou. it relevant to this point, no. thank you- it is — relevant to this point, no. thank you. it is luke _ relevant to this point, no. thank you. it is luke evans— relevant to this point, no. thank you. it is luke evans next. i relevant to this point, no. thank you. it is luke evans next. onel you. it is luke evans next. one thing we _ you. it is luke evans next. one thing we do — you. it is luke evans next. one thing we do have _ you. it is luke evans next. one thing we do have control i you. it is luke evans next. one thing we do have control over. you. it is luke evans next. one| thing we do have control over n you. it is luke evans next. one i thing we do have control over n and emergency— thing we do have control over n and emergency is — thing we do have control over n and emergency is in _ thing we do have control over n and emergency is in the _ thing we do have control over n and emergency is in the way— thing we do have control over n and emergency is in the way we - emergency is in the way we communicate. _ emergency is in the way we communicate. arguably- emergency is in the way we i communicate. arguably that is

emergency is in the way we - communicate. arguably that is your strongest _ communicate. arguably that is your strongest suit — communicate. arguably that is your strongest suit given _ communicate. arguably that is your strongest suit given your— communicate. arguably that is your strongest suit given your track- strongest suit given your track crooked — strongest suit given your track crooked with _ strongest suit given your track crooked with brexit. _ strongest suit given your track crooked with brexit. what i strongest suit given your track. crooked with brexit. what would strongest suit given your track- crooked with brexit. what would you score _ crooked with brexit. what would you score the _ crooked with brexit. what would you score the government _ crooked with brexit. what would you score the government out _ crooked with brexit. what would you score the government out of - crooked with brexit. what would you score the government out of ten - crooked with brexit. what would you score the government out of ten in l score the government out of ten in its communication— score the government out of ten in its communication to _ score the government out of ten in its communication to the _ score the government out of ten in its communication to the nhs - score the government out of ten in its communication to the nhs and i its communication to the nhs and publit _ its communication to the nhs and publit [_ its communication to the nhs and ublic. ~ l, its communication to the nhs and ublic. ~ t, h, h, its communication to the nhs and ublic. ~ t, t, public. i think that, so some of the --eole public. i think that, so some of the peeple working _ public. i think that, so some of the people working on _ public. i think that, so some of the people working on the _ public. i think that, so some of the - people working on the communications were some of the best people in the world. one of the great myths about the whole thing is that the reason for all of these problems was bad communications. fundamentally, the reason for all these problems was bad policy, had reason for all these problems was bad policy, bad decisions, bad planning, bad operational capability. it doesn't matter if you've got great people doing communications if the prime minister changes his mind ten times a day and then calls up the medium and contradicts his own policy day after day after day. you're going to have

a communications disaster zone. a few things to discuss more inaccurately than communications. inevitably, there were certainly mistakes on medications. but all the big things that people think, why did that wrong and why did that go wrong? like for example the whole thing with ashford, their director of communications led to the prime minister twice, of communications led to the prime ministertwice, do of communications led to the prime minister twice, do not pick a fight with marcus rashford. obviously we should do this instead. the prime minister decided to pick a fight and surrendered twice. everyone then says your communications is stupid. no, what is stupid was picking a fight with marcus ashford. it is easy to blame communications for bad policy and bad communications. ihla policy and bad communications. no plant stands the test of time when it hits _ plant stands the test of time when it hits the — plant stands the test of time when it hits the enemy. _ plant stands the test of time when it hits the enemy. the _ plant stands the test of time when it hits the enemy. the benefit- plant stands the test of time when it hits the enemy. the benefit you| it hits the enemy. the benefit you have _ it hits the enemy. the benefit you have with — it hits the enemy. the benefit you have with communications - it hits the enemy. the benefit you have with communications as -

it hits the enemy. the benefit you have with communications as we i it hits the enemy. the benefit you - have with communications as we went into a _ have with communications as we went into a second — have with communications as we went into a second lockdown. _ have with communications as we went into a second lockdown. what - have with communications as we went into a second lockdown. what where i into a second lockdown. what where their lessons — into a second lockdown. what where their lessons learned _ into a second lockdown. what where their lessons learned with _ their lessons learned with communicating _ their lessons learned with communicating in- their lessons learned with communicating in the - their lessons learned with| communicating in the first their lessons learned with - communicating in the first lockdown that came _ communicating in the first lockdown that came out — communicating in the first lockdown that came out to _ communicating in the first lockdown that came out to play— communicating in the first lockdown that came out to play in _ communicating in the first lockdown that came out to play in the - communicating in the first lockdown that came out to play in the second | that came out to play in the second lockdown? — that came out to play in the second lockdown? there _ that came out to play in the second lockdown? there was _ that came out to play in the second lockdown? there was a _ that came out to play in the second lockdown? there was a third - that came out to play in the second lockdown? there was a third one i that came out to play in the second . lockdown? there was a third one that you are _ lockdown? there was a third one that you are hot _ lockdown? there was a third one that you are not involved _ lockdown? there was a third one that you are not involved in. _ lockdown? there was a third one that you are not involved in. that- lockdown? there was a third one that you are not involved in. that is- you are not involved in. that is what _ you are not involved in. that is what the — you are not involved in. that is what the essence _ you are not involved in. that is what the essence of _ you are not involved in. that is what the essence of this - you are not involved in. that is. what the essence of this enquiry you are not involved in. that is- what the essence of this enquiry is about, _ what the essence of this enquiry is about, the — what the essence of this enquiry is about, the lessons— what the essence of this enquiry is about, the lessons you _ what the essence of this enquiry is about, the lessons you learned? l what the essence of this enquiry is about, the lessons you learned? i| about, the lessons you learned? i think about, the lessons you learned? think the same thing happened about, the lessons you learned?“ think the same thing happened in about, the lessons you learned?_ think the same thing happened in the autumn that as happened injanuary. it was bad policy and bad decisions. the problems in the autumn were not fundamentally communications problems. they wear that the prime minister made some terrible decisions and got things wrong and then constantly you turned on everything. it that is not a communications failure. you see it, everyone in the outside world sees it as a communications failure but the reality is it is much more fundamental than that. the autumn disaster were fundamentally not

communications problems. the communications problems. the communication problems were a consequence of bad decisions and bad management. consequence of bad decisions and bad management-— consequence of bad decisions and bad management. where you are in charge ofthe management. where you are in charge of the communications _ management. where you are in charge of the communications at _ management. where you are in charge of the communications at this - management. where you are in charge of the communications at this point? l of the communications at this point? you are _ of the communications at this point? you are saying. _ of the communications at this point? you are saying. it— of the communications at this point? you are saying, it is— of the communications at this point? you are saying, it is not— of the communications at this point? you are saying, it is not my- you are saying, it is not my problem. _ you are saying, it is not my problem. it— you are saying, it is not my problem, it is— you are saying, it is not my problem, it is what - you are saying, it is not my problem, it is what i- you are saying, it is not my problem, it is what i was. you are saying, it is not my- problem, it is what i was given? h0. problem, it is what i was given? no. as i said earlier _ problem, it is what i was given? as i said earlier on, the only time of the election and leaving number ten in where i was engaged in communications was the period of late february until may and the prime minister becoming ill, or testing positive, on the friday. that kind of three, four week period. before that and after that, i was very little involved with communications because i fundamentally disagreed with the prime minister and what is good communications, how to do communications, how to do communications, how to do communications, how it should structured, how we approach the media on every single major thing we disagreed. i tried to use my time where i thought it could be better spent. for example in the autumn, i

spent... i