political dramas, and that these political dramas, and that were anti—climactic when they happen. so i assumed this was going to be one of those. it really wasn't, notjust because it went on for so long, i watched, like you did, the whole lot, but as you say, here it was borisjohnson�*s chosen senior adviser who was on the inside during all of these key moments, making a series of extraordinary assertions. now, some say with some credence that here is a subjective, unreliable narrator, but that would only be true if what we all know and experience was with at odds with what he was saying. but we know they locked down late in the first lockdown when all those football matches and rock concerts were taking place was stopping other was a dispute in automotive glass or about whether to lockdown. so, etc, etc, and there were remarkable moments, like when he said this hasn't been reported much that when

borisjohnson went on to him as he put it, dominic cummings, for a two—week holiday in february 2020, they were almost relieved that he wasn't going to the cobra meetings, the emergency meetings, because they thought he would be almost unsafe for the country if he did attend. now, these things are astonishing, and even if they don't have an impact on voters, to be honest, they should do. it voters want to turn away, they have got every right to do so, but they are remarkable insights, albeit from a subjective perspective into the chaos behind the scenes of a british government tackling what is unquestionably the biggest challenge since i9li5. fine tackling what is unquestionably the biggest challenge since 1945. one of the secific biggest challenge since 1945. one of the specific allegations _ biggest challenge since 1945. one of the specific allegations that - biggest challenge since 1945. one of the specific allegations that was - the specific allegations that was made about the government was over the decision to allow hospital patients who had been treated for covid to return to care homes. a purely having been tested first, but, of course, it turned out many

of them hadn't been tested, and the consequence was a lot of people dying in care homes. you work in this sector, you understand a lot from you talk to a lot of people in this sector. can you help us with this? what did people think was going to happen, and is it fair of the government to say, actually, everything was moving, the testing facilities were not there, and we did the best we could do in the circumstances.— did the best we could do in the circumstances. , , ., ., , circumstances. hindsight is a really wonderful thing, _ circumstances. hindsight is a really wonderful thing, and _ circumstances. hindsight is a really wonderfulthing, and i— circumstances. hindsight is a really wonderfulthing, and i don't- circumstances. hindsight is a really wonderful thing, and i don't think l wonderful thing, and i don't think it's fair_ wonderful thing, and i don't think it's fair of— wonderful thing, and i don't think it's fair of the government to take the stand — it's fair of the government to take the stand that they did everything that they— the stand that they did everything that they could. i live in an area of the _ that they could. i live in an area of the uk — that they could. i live in an area of the uk in _ that they could. i live in an area of the uk in sussex where from brighton — of the uk in sussex where from brighton to hold to hastings to kent, — brighton to hold to hastings to kent, dozens of care homes were experiencing what they didn't plan through. _ experiencing what they didn't plan through, they didn't have the guidance _ through, they didn't have the guidance around, the government actually— guidance around, the government actually changed its mind about five times— actually changed its mind about five times since january 2020 up toward april with _

times since january 2020 up toward april with different guidance. that was confusing for the hospitals. that— was confusing for the hospitals. that was— was confusing for the hospitals. that was confusing for the care homes — that was confusing for the care homes i— that was confusing for the care homes. i know for a fact because the care standards specifically says when _ care standards specifically says when you — care standards specifically says when you are leaving the hospital, you should — when you are leaving the hospital, you should have a discharge plan, so if you _ you should have a discharge plan, so if you go— you should have a discharge plan, so if you go from hospital to home, it should _ if you go from hospital to home, it should he — if you go from hospital to home, it should be clear fairly planned by the hospital, and what we have was a panic— the hospital, and what we have was a panic reaction. , an action that was a most _ panic reaction. , an action that was a most without leadership in terms of the _ a most without leadership in terms of the government response to that. so people _ of the government response to that. so people were actually sent back into these — so people were actually sent back into these care homes without the testing. _ into these care homes without the testing, the proper plan from the care homes, and when they promised a report— care homes, and when they promised a report into _ care homes, and when they promised a report into office of fiasco comes around _ report into office of fiasco comes around in — report into office of fiasco comes around in the future of 20/20 to come _ around in the future of 20/20 to come i— around in the future of 20/20 to come i don't know why it will take so long. _ come i don't know why it will take so long, because dominic cummings has already— so long, because dominic cummings has already reviewed about —— a lot of what _ has already reviewed about —— a lot of what went — has already reviewed about —— a lot of what went on. it think it prove that a _ of what went on. it think it prove that a lot — of what went on. it think it prove that a lot of— of what went on. it think it prove that a lot of mistakes were made because — that a lot of mistakes were made because people just didn't know what they were _ because people just didn't know what they were doing in government. i think— they were doing in government. i think dominic cummings is onto something really substantial stop at 'ust something really substantial stop at just didn't _ something really substantial stop at just didn't really know, this is interesting, clive, because this

take-up— interesting, clive, because this take-u . ,, . , interesting, clive, because this take-u_,,, . , ., interesting, clive, because this take-u_ . ,., interesting, clive, because this take-u_,,, . ,., ,, ., interesting, clive, because this take-u_,,, . ,, ., ., take-up aspects of you spent a lot of time visiting _ take-up aspects of you spent a lot of time visiting hospitals - take-up aspects of you spent a lot of time visiting hospitals over - take-up aspects of you spent a lot of time visiting hospitals over the | of time visiting hospitals over the last year reporting of the experience is on the front line. it's fair to say a lot of people in the metal profession just didn't know because they were dealing with an unknown illness. in that context, when the government says, we acted on the scientific and vice, they clearly did, but even the scientists weren't sure, and therefore, are we trying to load too much criticism onto government of handling something when it was kind of blindsided by governments elsewhere in the world? , ., blindsided by governments elsewhere in the world?— in the world? everyone was blindsided. _ in the world? everyone was blindsided. this _ in the world? everyone was blindsided. this was - in the world? everyone was blindsided. this was a - in the world? everyone was - blindsided. this was a particularly difficult _ blindsided. this was a particularly difficult situation _ blindsided. this was a particularly difficult situation that _ blindsided. this was a particularly difficult situation that i— blindsided. this was a particularly difficult situation that i think - blindsided. this was a particularly difficult situation that i think it. difficult situation that i think it took— difficult situation that i think it took a — difficult situation that i think it took a long _ difficult situation that i think it took a long time _ difficult situation that i think it took a long time for— difficult situation that i think it - took a long time for policymakers, governments. _ took a long time for policymakers, governments, others _ took a long time for policymakers, governments, others in _ took a long time for policymakers, governments, others in the - governments, others in the community, _ governments, others in the community, and _ governments, others in the community, and in- governments, others in the community, and in wider. governments, others in the - community, and in wider society to fully understand, _ community, and in wider society to fully understand, and _ community, and in wider society to fully understand, and i— community, and in wider society to fully understand, and i know- community, and in wider society to fully understand, and i know going| fully understand, and i know going into hospitals— fully understand, and i know going into hospitals and _ fully understand, and i know going into hospitals and filming - fully understand, and i know going into hospitals and filming back- fully understand, and i know going into hospitals and filming back in l into hospitals and filming back in april. _ into hospitals and filming back in april. march, _ into hospitals and filming back in april, march, april, _ into hospitals and filming back in april, march, april, may- into hospitals and filming back in april, march, april, may of- into hospitals and filming back in april, march, april, may of last. april, march, april, may of last year. _ april, march, april, may of last year. irut— april, march, april, may of last year, but anecdotally, - april, march, april, may of lastl year, but anecdotally, certainly, people _ year, but anecdotally, certainly, people were _ year, but anecdotally, certainly, people were saying, _ year, but anecdotally, certainly, people were saying, look, - year, but anecdotally, certainly, people were saying, look, if- year, but anecdotally, certainly, people were saying, look, if you year, but anecdotally, certainly, - people were saying, look, if you end ”p people were saying, look, if you end up in _ people were saying, look, if you end up in the _ people were saying, look, if you end up in the hospital, _ people were saying, look, if you end up in the hospital, you _ people were saying, look, if you end up in the hospital, you are _ people were saying, look, if you end up in the hospital, you are going - people were saying, look, if you end up in the hospital, you are going to. up in the hospital, you are going to -et up in the hospital, you are going to get covid — up in the hospital, you are going to get covid it— up in the hospital, you are going to get covid it is— up in the hospital, you are going to get covid. it is the _ up in the hospital, you are going to get covid. it is the place _ up in the hospital, you are going to get covid. it is the place where - get covid. it is the place where this thing — get covid. it is the place where this thing is— get covid. it is the place where this thing is going _ get covid. it is the place where

this thing is going to— get covid. it is the place where this thing is going to breed. i this thing is going to breed. therefore. _ this thing is going to breed. therefore, if— this thing is going to breed. therefore, if you _ this thing is going to breed. therefore, if you are - this thing is going to breed. i therefore, if you are sending this thing is going to breed. - therefore, if you are sending people into hospitals — therefore, if you are sending people into hospitals and _ therefore, if you are sending people into hospitals and you _ therefore, if you are sending people into hospitals and you haven't - into hospitals and you haven't tested — into hospitals and you haven't tested thenr, _ into hospitals and you haven't tested them, you _ into hospitals and you haven't tested them, you are - into hospitals and you haven't tested them, you are going. into hospitals and you haven'tj tested them, you are going to into hospitals and you haven't - tested them, you are going to get... ifyou _ tested them, you are going to get... ifyou are _ tested them, you are going to get... ifyou are sending _ tested them, you are going to get... if you are sending people _ tested them, you are going to get... if you are sending people into - tested them, you are going to get... if you are sending people into care . if you are sending people into care honres, _ if you are sending people into care honres, rather— if you are sending people into care homes, rather from _ if you are sending people into care homes, rather from hospitals, - if you are sending people into care i homes, ratherfrom hospitals, having been in— homes, ratherfrom hospitals, having been in hospitals, _ homes, ratherfrom hospitals, having been in hospitals, you _ homes, ratherfrom hospitals, having been in hospitals, you are _ homes, ratherfrom hospitals, having been in hospitals, you are going - homes, ratherfrom hospitals, having been in hospitals, you are going to i been in hospitals, you are going to set a _ been in hospitals, you are going to set a wildfire — been in hospitals, you are going to set a wildfire running. _ been in hospitals, you are going to set a wildfire running. and - been in hospitals, you are going to set a wildfire running. and as- been in hospitals, you are going to set a wildfire running. and as you i set a wildfire running. and as you say, _ set a wildfire running. and as you say, you — set a wildfire running. and as you say. you know. _ set a wildfire running. and as you say. you know. it— set a wildfire running. and as you say, you know, it is— set a wildfire running. and as you say, you know, it is not— set a wildfire running. and as you say, you know, it is notjust - say, you know, it is notjust england. _ say, you know, it is notjust england, wales _ say, you know, it is notjust england, wales and - say, you know, it is notjustl england, wales and scotland say, you know, it is notjust - england, wales and scotland where this was— england, wales and scotland where this was a _ england, wales and scotland where this was a problem. _ england, wales and scotland where this was a problem. the _ england, wales and scotland where this was a problem. the united - this was a problem. the united states. — this was a problem. the united states. the _ this was a problem. the united states, the first _ this was a problem. the united states, the first case _ this was a problem. the united states, the first case of - this was a problem. the united states, the first case of a - this was a problem. the united states, the first case of a covid victim — states, the first case of a covid victim in— states, the first case of a covid victim in the _ states, the first case of a covid victim in the united _ states, the first case of a covid victim in the united states - states, the first case of a covid victim in the united states was| states, the first case of a covid . victim in the united states was in states, the first case of a covid - victim in the united states was in a care home — victim in the united states was in a care home in — victim in the united states was in a care home in seattle. _ victim in the united states was in a care home in seattle. that- victim in the united states was in a care home in seattle. that is- victim in the united states was in a| care home in seattle. that is where the first— care home in seattle. that is where the first irig — care home in seattle. that is where the first big outbreak— care home in seattle. that is where the first big outbreak took - care home in seattle. that is where the first big outbreak took place. i the first big outbreak took place. we know— the first big outbreak took place. we know that _ the first big outbreak took place. we know that people _ the first big outbreak took place. we know that people in- the first big outbreak took place. we know that people in france, i the first big outbreak took place. i we know that people in france, the relatives— we know that people in france, the relatives of— we know that people in france, the relatives of people _ we know that people in france, the relatives of people in _ we know that people in france, the relatives of people in care - we know that people in france, the relatives of people in care homes . relatives of people in care homes who have — relatives of people in care homes who have died _ relatives of people in care homes who have died as— relatives of people in care homes who have died as a _ relatives of people in care homes who have died as a result - relatives of people in care homes who have died as a result of- relatives of people in care homes i who have died as a result of covid, they are _ who have died as a result of covid, they are going _ who have died as a result of covid, they are going to _ who have died as a result of covid, they are going to court. _ who have died as a result of covid, they are going to court. i— who have died as a result of covid, they are going to court. i started . they are going to court. i started legal— they are going to court. i started legal action— they are going to court. i started legal action back— they are going to court. i started legal action back in _ they are going to court. i started legal action back in march - they are going to court. i started legal action back in march to - they are going to court. i started legal action back in march to tryl they are going to court. i started i legal action back in march to try to -et legal action back in march to try to get answers — legal action back in march to try to get answers. half— legal action back in march to try to get answers. half of— legal action back in march to try to get answers. half of all— legal action back in march to try to get answers. half of all the - legal action back in march to try to get answers. half of all the covid i get answers. half of all the covid deaths _ get answers. half of all the covid deaths in — get answers. half of all the covid deaths in germany— get answers. half of all the covid deaths in germany where - get answers. half of all the covid deaths in germany where in - get answers. half of all the covid deaths in germany where in care| deaths in germany where in care homes — deaths in germany where in care homes this _ deaths in germany where in care homes. this isn't _ deaths in germany where in care homes. this isn'tjust_ deaths in germany where in care homes. this isn't just a - deaths in germany where in care homes. this isn'tjust a problemj homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain— homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain had _ homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain had to _ homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain had to deal- homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain had to deal with. - homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain had to deal with. it. that britain had to deal with. it seems — that britain had to deal with. it seems to— that britain had to deal with. it seems to have _ that britain had to deal with. it seems to have been _ that britain had to deal with. it seems to have been a - that britain had to deal with. it seems to have been a blind - that britain had to deal with. it. seems to have been a blind spot that britain had to deal with. it - seems to have been a blind spot for policymakers — seems to have been a blind spot for policymakers around _ seems to have been a blind spot for policymakers around the _ seems to have been a blind spot for policymakers around the world. - policymakers around the world. anything — policymakers around the world. anything it _ policymakers around the world. anything it will _ policymakers around the world. anything it will be _ policymakers around the world. anything it will be one - policymakers around the world. anything it will be one of- policymakers around the world. anything it will be one of the i policymakers around the world. i anything it will be one of the most significant — anything it will be one of the most significant chapters _ anything it will be one of the most significant chapters of _ anything it will be one of the most significant chapters of the - anything it will be one of the most significant chapters of the inquiry. significant chapters of the inquiry as renard — significant chapters of the inquiry as renard pointed _ significant chapters of the inquiry as renard pointed out, _ significant chapters of the inquiry as renard pointed out, of- significant chapters of the inquiry as renard pointed out, of the - as renard pointed out, of the inquiry, — as renard pointed out, of the inquiry, when— as renard pointed out, of the inquiry, when it— as renard pointed out, of the inquiry, when it eventually. as renard pointed out, of the - inquiry, when it eventually comes

sometime — inquiry, when it eventually comes sometime next— inquiry, when it eventually comes sometime next year. _ inquiry, when it eventually comes sometime next year. it _ inquiry, when it eventually comes sometime next year. it think- inquiry, when it eventually comes sometime next year. it think the i sometime next year. it think the fascination— sometime next year. it think the fascination for— sometime next year. it think the fascination for the _ sometime next year. it think the fascination for the public- sometime next year. it think the fascination for the public also . sometime next year. it think the fascination for the public also isi fascination for the public also is the fact— fascination for the public also is the fact that _ fascination for the public also is the fact that we _ fascination for the public also is the fact that we talking - fascination for the public also is the fact that we talking the - fascination for the public also isi the fact that we talking the most vulnerable — the fact that we talking the most vulnerable members _ the fact that we talking the most vulnerable members of - the fact that we talking the most vulnerable members of our- the fact that we talking the most i vulnerable members of our society, apart— vulnerable members of our society, apart from — vulnerable members of our society, apart from children. _ vulnerable members of our society, apart from children. people - vulnerable members of our society, apart from children. people who - apart from children. people who perhaps— apart from children. people who perhaps have _ apart from children. people who perhaps have dementia - apart from children. people who perhaps have dementia who - apart from children. people who perhaps have dementia who are| apart from children. people who i perhaps have dementia who are old and are _ perhaps have dementia who are old and are frait. — perhaps have dementia who are old and are frail, left— perhaps have dementia who are old and are frail, left potentially- perhaps have dementia who are old and are frail, left potentially at - and are frail, left potentially at the mercy— and are frail, left potentially at the mercy of— and are frail, left potentially at the mercy of this _ and are frail, left potentially at the mercy of this killer. - and are frail, left potentially at the mercy of this killer. i- and are frail, left potentially at the mercy of this killer. i think| the mercy of this killer. i think that's— the mercy of this killer. i think that's has— the mercy of this killer. i think that's has sort _ the mercy of this killer. i think that's has sort of— the mercy of this killer. i think that's has sort of raised - the mercy of this killer. i think that's has sort of raised the i the mercy of this killer. i think- that's has sort of raised the stakes in terms _ that's has sort of raised the stakes in terms of— that's has sort of raised the stakes in terms of the _ that's has sort of raised the stakes in terms of the debate _ that's has sort of raised the stakes in terms of the debate about - that's has sort of raised the stakes in terms of the debate about this, | in terms of the debate about this, pa rticuta rty — in terms of the debate about this, particularly after— in terms of the debate about this, particularly after what _ in terms of the debate about this, particularly after what dominic- particularly after what dominic cummings— particularly after what dominic cummings said _ particularly after what dominic cummings said in _ particularly after what dominic cummings said in his- particularly after what dominicl cummings said in his testimony before — cummings said in his testimony before that _ cummings said in his testimony before that.— cummings said in his testimony before that. , ,., .., before that. the broader political ruestions before that. the broader political questions beyond _ before that. the broader political questions beyond just _ before that. the broader political questions beyond just the - before that. the broader political- questions beyond just the pandemic, there is a lot of criticism from dominic cummings, some have to miss —— dismissed a lot of it as personal as kind of revenge, bitterness for the way he left government. couple of interesting aspects, one for my guess you can criticise as saying he was on the strength to control things, he says he was trained to change a structure around boris johnson to stop what i thought were extremely bad decisions. one might wonder if that is really their role of the adviser, but he then quotes the prime minister he says, "you are

right, i am the prime minister he says, "you are right, iam more the prime minister he says, "you are right, i am more frightened of you, dominic cummings, having the power to stop the chaos than i am of the chaos." chaos isn't that bad, chaos means that everyone has to look to means that everyone has to look to me to see who is in charge." i wonder, assuming that that is a correct representation of what boris johnson said to him, what that tells us or might tell us about the conduct of government and what your views are on that.— views are on that. yes, and again, ou views are on that. yes, and again, you could — views are on that. yes, and again, you could say. _ views are on that. yes, and again, you could say, well, _ views are on that. yes, and again, you could say, well, dominic- you could say, well, dominic cummings was out to get boris johnson, and again, i would argue that that would be a perfectly valid thing to say. if it was at odds with what we know will stop at all the evidence suggests he's a chaotic figure, borisjohnson. as a journalist, is a broadcaster, used to do programmes with him sometimes. there was an air of chaos around. but does that matter?— there was an air of chaos around. but does that matter? yes, it does

matter in terms _ but does that matter? yes, it does matter in terms of— but does that matter? yes, it does matter in terms of clarity _ but does that matter? yes, it does matter in terms of clarity of - matter in terms of clarity of policymaking, delivering policy, of being not only decisive, but about making the right calls based on the evidence in front of you, which could be complex, detailed, dull, technocratic. and, you know, what we see suggests that that isn't. boris johnson is a great vote winner to be absolutely clear about that, but that side effect chimes with what dominic cummings said. and his appointments in cabinet are fairly mediocre unthreatening figures, wholly dependent on his patronage. it reinforces the sense that rather than allowing others, big figures, to have space to impose order and control, he would prefer the chaos around him. so he retains a degree of control. so i do think it really

matters in terms of the conduct of government. in britain, we have a cabinet base system in theory, although, cummings made clear cabinet was virtually wholly bypassed. a kind of presidential culture where prime ministers wield considerable power, especially in an emergency, and so it does matter what his —— when his most senior adviser says he prefers chaos to order so he has a kind of space to rule. �* ., ., , order so he has a kind of space to rule. �* . .,, ., ., order so he has a kind of space to rule. �* . ., ., rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes, i do rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes. i do agree _ rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes, i do agree with _ rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes, i do agree with what _ rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes, i do agree with what he - rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes, i do agree with what he is - yes, i do agree with what he is saying. — yes, i do agree with what he is saying, because i think the adviser should _ saying, because i think the adviser should never become the news. and tapping _ should never become the news. and tapping throughout pandemic is what i tapping throughout pandemic is what i would _ tapping throughout pandemic is what i would call a political domination try i would call a political domination by one _ i would call a political domination by one individual and the sad incident _ by one individual and the sad incident of this pandemic where so many— incident of this pandemic where so many thousands of people have lost their lives, — many thousands of people have lost their lives, become a political, sort _ their lives, become a political, sort of. — their lives, become a political, sort of, kicking ball, and hopefully when _ sort of, kicking ball, and hopefully when the — sort of, kicking ball, and hopefully when the report in the inquiry comes around, _ when the report in the inquiry comes around, a _ when the report in the inquiry comes around, a lot— when the report in the inquiry comes around, a lot of what he is saying i

will repeat — around, a lot of what he is saying i will repeat again, will not be used any more — will repeat again, will not be used an more. ., ~' will repeat again, will not be used an more. . ~ ,, will repeat again, will not be used an more. . ~ ., , will repeat again, will not be used an more. ., . y . joe biden wanted to mark the first anniversary of the killing of george floyd — a black american killed by a white american police officer — by signing into law a wide ranging reform of the police. in washington, though, the most powerful political force is inertia. tuesday's commemorations came and went, with the george floyd justice in policing act stranded in the senate. clive, you are just back from the united states, just a matter of days ago. you have been looking at this whole question of what, if anything, has changed since george floyd was murdered. what is your impression of biden's america and its first few months in terms of how it's reacted to what has gone on, and reacted to that your protest that has followed? to be honest with you, it is not 'ust to be honest with you, it is not just biden's _ to be honest with you, it is not just biden's america, - to be honest with you, it is not just biden's america, it's - to be honest with you, it is not- just biden's america, it's emmanuel macron's_ just biden's america, it's emmanuel macron's france, _ just biden's america, it's emmanuel macron's france, johnson's - just biden's america, it's emmanuel macron's france, johnson's britain, i macron's france, johnson's britain, there _ macron's france, johnson's britain, there is— macron's france, johnson's britain, there is a _ macron's france, johnson's britain, there is a real— macron's france, johnson's britain, there is a real sense _ macron's france, johnson's britain, there is a real sense that _ macron's france, johnson's britain, there is a real sense that societiesl there is a real sense that societies have _ there is a real sense that societies have actually— there is a real sense that societies

have actually moved _ there is a real sense that societies have actually moved backwards i there is a real sense that societies have actually moved backwards 12| have actually moved backwards 12 months _ have actually moved backwards 12 months on — have actually moved backwards 12 months on since _ have actually moved backwards 12 months on since george - have actually moved backwards 12 months on since george floyd - have actually moved backwards 12| months on since george floyd was murdered — months on since george floyd was murdered all— months on since george floyd was murdered all stop _ months on since george floyd was murdered all stop and _ months on since george floyd was murdered all stop and it's - murdered all stop and it's interesting _ murdered all stop and it's interesting to— murdered all stop and it's interesting to sort - murdered all stop and it's interesting to sort of- murdered all stop and it's interesting to sort of see i murdered all stop and it's . interesting to sort of see this murdered all stop and it's - interesting to sort of see this come iwent— interesting to sort of see this come i went to _ interesting to sort of see this come i went to france _ interesting to sort of see this come i went to france and _ interesting to sort of see this come i went to france and i— interesting to sort of see this come i went to france and i went- interesting to sort of see this come i went to france and i went to - interesting to sort of see this come i went to france and i went to the i i went to france and i went to the united _ i went to france and i went to the united states— i went to france and i went to the united states to _ i went to france and i went to the united states to look _ i went to france and i went to the united states to look at _ i went to france and i went to the united states to look at this, - i went to france and i went to the united states to look at this, that the sort _ united states to look at this, that the sort of— united states to look at this, that the sort of trauma _ united states to look at this, that the sort of trauma of— united states to look at this, that the sort of trauma of a _ united states to look at this, that the sort of trauma of a year- united states to look at this, that the sort of trauma of a year ago, i the sort of trauma of a year ago, the sort of trauma of a year ago, the world — the sort of trauma of a year ago, the world has— the sort of trauma of a year ago, the world has managed - the sort of trauma of a year ago, the world has managed to - the sort of trauma of a year ago, the world has managed to movel the sort of trauma of a year ago, . the world has managed to move on. the sort of trauma of a year ago, - the world has managed to move on. it always— the world has managed to move on. it always does— the world has managed to move on. it always does after— the world has managed to move on. it always does after something - always does after something cataclysmic— always does after something cataclysmic as _ always does after something cataclysmic as what - always does after something i cataclysmic as what happened always does after something - cataclysmic as what happened with george _ cataclysmic as what happened with george floyd _ cataclysmic as what happened with george floyd. overtime, _ cataclysmic as what happened with george floyd. overtime, the - cataclysmic as what happened with . george floyd. overtime, the urgency of that— george floyd. overtime, the urgency of that moment — george floyd. overtime, the urgency of that moment just _ george floyd. overtime, the urgency of that moment just seems _ george floyd. overtime, the urgency of that moment just seems to - of that moment just seems to dissipate _ of that moment just seems to dissipate. wrinkly, _ of that moment just seems to dissipate. wrinkly, that- of that moment just seems to| dissipate. wrinkly, that seems of that moment just seems to . dissipate. wrinkly, that seems to have _ dissipate. wrinkly, that seems to have been. — dissipate. wrinkly, that seems to have been, what— dissipate. wrinkly, that seems to have been, what i've _ dissipate. wrinkly, that seems toj have been, what i've experienced dissipate. wrinkly, that seems to i have been, what i've experienced as having happened _ have been, what i've experienced as having happened certainly— have been, what i've experienced as having happened certainly in - have been, what i've experienced as having happened certainly in francel having happened certainly in france here and _ having happened certainly in france here and in— having happened certainly in france here and in the— having happened certainly in france here and in the united _ having happened certainly in france here and in the united states, - having happened certainly in france here and in the united states, andl here and in the united states, and you even— here and in the united states, and you even get— here and in the united states, and you even get a _ here and in the united states, and you even get a backlash. - here and in the united states, and you even get a backlash. you - here and in the united states, and you even get a backlash. you get. here and in the united states, and| you even get a backlash. you get a sense _ you even get a backlash. you get a sense that — you even get a backlash. you get a sense that why— you even get a backlash. you get a sense that why are _ you even get a backlash. you get a sense that why are we _ you even get a backlash. you get a sense that why are we penalising l you even get a backlash. you get a . sense that why are we penalising the whole _ sense that why are we penalising the whole of _ sense that why are we penalising the whole of the — sense that why are we penalising the whole of the police _ sense that why are we penalising the whole of the police force _ sense that why are we penalising the whole of the police force in _ whole of the police force in britain, _ whole of the police force in britain, america, - whole of the police force in britain, america, france, i whole of the police force in - britain, america, france, germany, wherever— britain, america, france, germany, wherever for — britain, america, france, germany, wherever for a — britain, america, france, germany, wherever for a few— britain, america, france, germany, wherever for a few rotten _ britain, america, france, germany, wherever for a few rotten apples? l wherever for a few rotten apples? and that _ wherever for a few rotten apples? and that seems _ wherever for a few rotten apples? and that seems to _ wherever for a few rotten apples? and that seems to be _ wherever for a few rotten apples? and that seems to be the - wherever for a few rotten apples? and that seems to be the attitudej and that seems to be the attitude i've discovered _ and that seems to be the attitude i've discovered from _ and that seems to be the attitude i've discovered from the - and that seems to be the attitude i i've discovered from the democracies of the _ i've discovered from the democracies of the west— i've discovered from the democracies of the west as — i've discovered from the democracies of the west as a _ i've discovered from the democracies of the west as a result _ i've discovered from the democracies of the west as a result of— i've discovered from the democracies of the west as a result of what - of the west as a result of what happened _ of the west as a result of what happened. you've _ of the west as a result of what happened. you've got- of the west as a result of what happened. you've got people. of the west as a result of what i happened. you've got people who of the west as a result of what - happened. you've got people who are saying _ happened. you've got people who are saying that, _ happened. you've got people who are saying that, actually, _ happened. you've got people who are saying that, actually, there _ happened. you've got people who are saying that, actually, there isn't- saying that, actually, there isn't systemic— saying that, actually, there isn't systemic racism _ saying that, actually, there isn't

systemic racism in— saying that, actually, there isn't systemic racism in a _ saying that, actually, there isn't systemic racism in a lot - saying that, actually, there isn't systemic racism in a lot of- saying that, actually, there isn't| systemic racism in a lot of these societies, — systemic racism in a lot of these societies, you _ systemic racism in a lot of these societies, you know, _ systemic racism in a lot of these societies, you know, while - systemic racism in a lot of these societies, you know, while lots. systemic racism in a lot of these i societies, you know, while lots of people _ societies, you know, while lots of people are — societies, you know, while lots of people are willing _ societies, you know, while lots of people are willing to _ societies, you know, while lots of people are willing to claim - societies, you know, while lots of people are willing to claim that. people are willing to claim that that was— people are willing to claim that that was the _ people are willing to claim that that was the case _ people are willing to claim that that was the case within - people are willing to claim that that was the case within the i people are willing to claim that i that was the case within the white heat of— that was the case within the white heat of the — that was the case within the white heat of the moment _ that was the case within the white heat of the moment of— that was the case within the white heat of the moment of george - that was the case within the white . heat of the moment of george floyd dyin- heat of the moment of george floyd dying but— heat of the moment of george floyd dying but white _ heat of the moment of george floyd dying but white heat _ heat of the moment of george floyd dying but white heat has— heat of the moment of george floyd dying but white heat has gotten - dying but white heat has gotten cooler— dying but white heat has gotten cooler and _ dying but white heat has gotten cooler and cooler _ dying but white heat has gotten cooler and cooler and _ dying but white heat has gotten cooler and cooler and cooler. . dying but white heat has gotten. cooler and cooler and cooler. we dying but white heat has gotten - cooler and cooler and cooler. we had a commission— cooler and cooler and cooler. we had a commission here _ cooler and cooler and cooler. we had a commission here that— cooler and cooler and cooler. we had a commission here that suggested i a commission here that suggested that inequalities _ a commission here that suggested that inequalities in _ a commission here that suggested that inequalities in pay, _ a commission here that suggested that inequalities in pay, jobs, - a commission here that suggested that inequalities in pay, jobs, youi that inequalities in pay, jobs, you know, _ that inequalities in pay, jobs, you know. the — that inequalities in pay, jobs, you know. the lack— that inequalities in pay, jobs, you know, the lack of— that inequalities in pay, jobs, you know, the lack of black _ know, the lack of black representation- know, the lack of black representation of- know, the lack of black representation of the l know, the lack of black - representation of the highest know, the lack of black _ representation of the highest levels of business. — representation of the highest levels of business, higher— representation of the highest levels of business, higher incarceration. of business, higher incarceration rates. _ of business, higher incarceration rates. stop— of business, higher incarceration rates. stop and _ of business, higher incarceration rates, stop and search _ of business, higher incarceration rates, stop and search rates, - of business, higher incarceration. rates, stop and search rates, which are the _ rates, stop and search rates, which are the same — rates, stop and search rates, which are the same in— rates, stop and search rates, which are the same in america _ rates, stop and search rates, which are the same in america and - rates, stop and search rates, which are the same in america and the i rates, stop and search rates, which| are the same in america and the uk and france — are the same in america and the uk and france. nothing— are the same in america and the uk and france. nothing to _ are the same in america and the uk and france. nothing to do _ are the same in america and the uk and france. nothing to do with- and france. nothing to do with systemic— and france. nothing to do with systemic racism, _ and france. nothing to do with systemic racism, it _ and france. nothing to do with systemic racism, it is - and france. nothing to do with| systemic racism, it is somehow something _ systemic racism, it is somehow something to _ systemic racism, it is somehow something to do _ systemic racism, it is somehow something to do with _ systemic racism, it is somehowl something to do with something systemic racism, it is somehow- something to do with something else, backgrounds. — something to do with something else, backgrounds, society— something to do with something else, backgrounds, society in _ something to do with something else, backgrounds, society in general, - backgrounds, society in general, nothing — backgrounds, society in general, nothing to— backgrounds, society in general, nothing to do _ backgrounds, society in general, nothing to do with _ backgrounds, society in general, nothing to do with race. - backgrounds, society in general, nothing to do with race. and - backgrounds, society in general, nothing to do with race. and it's| nothing to do with race. and it's been _ nothing to do with race. and it's been fascinating _ nothing to do with race. and it's been fascinating seeing - nothing to do with race. and it's been fascinating seeing the - nothing to do with race. and it's i been fascinating seeing the energy and the _ been fascinating seeing the energy and the electric— been fascinating seeing the energy and the electric sense _ been fascinating seeing the energy and the electric sense of _ been fascinating seeing the energy and the electric sense of change i and the electric sense of change that's— and the electric sense of change that's many— and the electric sense of change that's many people _ and the electric sense of change that's many people felt - and the electric sense of change that's many people felt had - and the electric sense of change that's many people felt had to l and the electric sense of change - that's many people felt had to come watching _ that's many people felt had to come watching that — that's many people felt had to come watching that slowly _ that's many people felt had to come watching that slowly ebb _ that's many people felt had to come watching that slowly ebb away- that's many people felt had to come watching that slowly ebb away overl watching that slowly ebb away over 12 months — watching that slowly ebb away over 12 months to — watching that slowly ebb away over 12 months to the _ watching that slowly ebb away over 12 months to the point _ watching that slowly ebb away over 12 months to the point that - watching that slowly ebb away over 12 months to the point that society| 12 months to the point that society has actually — 12 months to the point that society has actually seemed _ 12 months to the point that society has actually seemed to _ 12 months to the point that society has actually seemed to me - 12 months to the point that society has actually seemed to me to - 12 months to the point that society has actually seemed to me to be l has actually seemed to me to be going _ has actually seemed to me to be going backwards. _ has actually seemed to me to be going backwards. and _ has actually seemed to me to be going backwards. and it's - has actually seemed to me to be going backwards. and it's a - has actually seemed to me to be i going backwards. and it's a really weird _ going backwards. and it's a really weird thing — going backwards. and it's a really weird thing to— going backwards. and it's a really weird thing to watch _ going backwards. and it's a really weird thing to watch can - going backwards. and it's a really weird thing to watch can actually. j

weird thing to watch can actually. really— weird thing to watch can actually. really weird _ weird thing to watch can actually. really weird-— weird thing to watch can actually. really weird. bernard to pick up on clive's analogy _ really weird. bernard to pick up on clive's analogy there, _ really weird. bernard to pick up on clive's analogy there, whether - really weird. bernard to pick up on clive's analogy there, whether it i really weird. bernard to pick up on clive's analogy there, whether it is | clive's analogy there, whether it is or isn't a few rotten apples, no one seems to be still asking the question, "what causes the apples to rot? " ~.. ., �* question, "what causes the apples to rot?" ., �* question, "what causes the apples to rot?" ., m question, "what causes the apples to rot?" . m. . rot? " the mac i wouldn't call it a few rotten _ rot? " the mac i wouldn't call it a few rotten apples, _ rot? " the mac i wouldn't call it a few rotten apples, this _ rot? " the mac i wouldn't call it a few rotten apples, this he - rot? " the mac i wouldn't call it a few rotten apples, this he has . rot? " the mac i wouldn't call it a l few rotten apples, this he has seen this durin: few rotten apples, this he has seen this during his _ few rotten apples, this he has seen this during his work— few rotten apples, this he has seen this during his work around - this during his work around different countries. i different countries. lthink— different countries. i think it's more systematic, it's widespread, it's long—standing. you have to _ widespread, it's long—standing. you have to ask— widespread, it's long—standing. you have to ask yourself, why have like lives _ have to ask yourself, why have like lives matter become so popular in such a _ lives matter become so popular in such a short time? —— black lives matter— such a short time? —— black lives matter to — such a short time? —— black lives matter to me after what we have seen --oin matter to me after what we have seen going on— matter to me after what we have seen going on for— matter to me after what we have seen going on for hundreds of years. there _ going on for hundreds of years. there is— going on for hundreds of years. there is some systematic practices that have _ there is some systematic practices that have been going on in these countries — that have been going on in these countries in france, in britain, in the united — countries in france, in britain, in the united kingdom, and we are talking _ the united kingdom, and we are talking about police actions now, and what — talking about police actions now, and what joe talking about police actions now, and whatjoe biden says he talking about police actions now, and what joe biden says he wants to be able _ and what joe biden says he wants to be able to— and what joe biden says he wants to be able to make that change in terms of policing. _ be able to make that change in terms of policing, but look what has happened in the last week or so in

us congress. the proposal being put forward _ us congress. the proposal being put forward has been sold. so that tells you people — forward has been sold. so that tells you people come as clive set or not really _ you people come as clive set or not really ready— you people come as clive set or not really ready to actually move forward _ really ready to actually move forward. it becomes something that everybody— forward. it becomes something that everybody wants to be part of in terms _ everybody wants to be part of in terms of — everybody wants to be part of in terms of human empathy, and this is systematic— terms of human empathy, and this is systematic of why many people, for example. _ systematic of why many people, for example, we talk about the covid a while _ example, we talk about the covid a while ago. — example, we talk about the covid a while ago, while many people of asian. _ while ago, while many people of asian, african, caribbean backgrounds are refusing to take the injections _ backgrounds are refusing to take the injections because they see the injections because they see the injections as part of the old thing to do— injections as part of the old thing to do with — injections as part of the old thing to do with black lives, policing, systematic and structures of society, _ systematic and structures of society, and we have a serious problem. _ society, and we have a serious problem, but it demands serious solutions. — problem, but it demands serious solutions, and we are not getting it at all. _ solutions, and we are not getting it at all. and — solutions, and we are not getting it at all, and clive is right, you know. — at all, and clive is right, you know. it _ at all, and clive is right, you know, it goes on in public for a short— know, it goes on in public for a short time _ know, it goes on in public for a short time and then it goes back to the old _ short time and then it goes back to the old comfort zone.— the old comfort zone. steve, if black people — the old comfort zone. steve, if black people see a _ the old comfort zone. steve, if black people see a systemic i

the old comfort zone. steve, if- black people see a systemic problem, white people see no systemic problem. if we are looking in the state, how on earth does a white president or a black vice president overcome that? in a political system where culture wars are almost starting to define the blood of the party themselves?— starting to define the blood of the party themselves? well, they have not limited party themselves? well, they have got limited room _ party themselves? well, they have got limited room for _ party themselves? well, they have got limited room for manoeuvre, l party themselves? well, they have l got limited room for manoeuvre, but they have got some room. i don't overestimate the long—term potency of a tragedy, as clive suggests, i hadn't realised how things had gone backin hadn't realised how things had gone back in such a short period of time, but to be honest, depressed but not totally surprised. but i wouldn't also underestimate the power of the political altar. also underestimate the power of the politicalaltar. it also underestimate the power of the political altar. it is different thatjoe biden is president, speaking and responding to these kinds of events, compared, say, to donald trump, i mean, it's a statement of the obvious, but that is a big difference. but in terms of power, i mean, you know, iwas talking earlier about britain having

a sort of presidential culture in terms of domestic policy, quite often a prime minister has more control, albeit in a much smaller power, britain, than a president doesin power, britain, than a president does in domestic policy in the united states. so, i think he will use the altar to try and change the mood. he has already done so, and on several occasions. now, i'm not saying that makes a practical difference in the short—term, it doesn't. but i wouldn't understate that which has changed in the united states, but as a signature go back to my original point, these appalling tragedies, if you look back, there are protests, there are ritualistic protests, they still go on, footballers in britain still take the knee and so on, but then as clive has observed, it fades. it needs political will to bring about change in the end, but i think the difference between biden and

trump is profound, and that is a new to the equation, a positive one. clive, one of the most memorable rows during the democratic presidential primaries was when, let harris took onjoe biden over his previous record on race, talked about how the young congressman had beenin about how the young congressman had been in her view to willing to compromise with some of the old racists to then use to operate in the senates and in the house of representatives, and it is on state of delaware how he had been willing to support busing, hugely controversial policy taking people from areas where there was white resistance to schooling, even if they lived in those areas, moving they lived in those areas, moving the miles and miles to go to a school where you could get some of the authorities could get them into that school. is he making good use, enough use of kamala harris in the circumstances, given that this is such a sensitive question? fries. circumstances, given that this is such a sensitive question? yes, it's a aood such a sensitive question? yes, it's a good question. — such a sensitive question? yes, it's a good question, and _ such a sensitive question? yes, it's a good question, and he _ such a sensitive question? yes, it's a good question, and he did - such a sensitive question? yes, it's a good question, and he did deployj a good question, and he did deploy her, a good question, and he did deploy her. as— a good question, and he did deploy her. as it _ a good question, and he did deploy her. as it were. _ a good question, and he did deploy her, as it were, to _ a good question, and he did deploy her, as it were, to sort _ a good question, and he did deploy her, as it were, to sort of- a good question, and he did deploy her, as it were, to sort of deal- her, as it were, to sort of deal with— her, as it were, to sort of deal with the — her, as it were, to sort of deal with the situation _ her, as it were, to sort of deal with the situation on _ her, as it were, to sort of deal with the situation on the - her, as it were, to sort of deal. with the situation on the border. with— with the situation on the border.

with migrants— with the situation on the border. with migrants flooding - with the situation on the border. with migrants flooding in - with the situation on the border. with migrants flooding in from l with migrants flooding in from mexico — with migrants flooding in from mexico and _ with migrants flooding in from mexico and from _ with migrants flooding in from mexico and from south - with migrants flooding in from . mexico and from south america. with migrants flooding in from - mexico and from south america. it could _ mexico and from south america. it could be _ mexico and from south america. it could be argued _ mexico and from south america. it could be argued that _ mexico and from south america. it could be argued that perhaps - mexico and from south america. it could be argued that perhaps he i could be argued that perhaps he isn't deploying _ could be argued that perhaps he isn't deploying her— could be argued that perhaps he isn't deploying her as— could be argued that perhaps he isn't deploying her as well- could be argued that perhaps he isn't deploying her as well as . isn't deploying her as well as perhaps— isn't deploying her as well as perhaps he _ isn't deploying her as well as perhaps he could _ isn't deploying her as well as perhaps he could come - isn't deploying her as well as perhaps he could come and i perhaps he could come and effectively _ perhaps he could come and effectively enough - perhaps he could come and effectively enough in - perhaps he could come and i effectively enough in regards perhaps he could come and - effectively enough in regards to the george _ effectively enough in regards to the george floyd — effectively enough in regards to the george floyd policing _ effectively enough in regards to the george floyd policing bell. - effectively enough in regards to the george floyd policing bell. but- effectively enough in regards to the george floyd policing bell. but i- george floyd policing bell. but i think— george floyd policing bell. but i think there _ george floyd policing bell. but i think there is _ george floyd policing bell. but i think there is a _ george floyd policing bell. but i think there is a sense _ george floyd policing bell. but i think there is a sense that - george floyd policing bell. but i. think there is a sense that because joe biden— think there is a sense that because joe biden knows— think there is a sense that because joe biden knows those _ think there is a sense that because joe biden knows those good - think there is a sense that because joe biden knows those good old i think there is a sense that because i joe biden knows those good old boys, he understands — joe biden knows those good old boys, he understands the _ joe biden knows those good old boys, he understands the mentality - joe biden knows those good old boys, he understands the mentality of - joe biden knows those good old boys, j he understands the mentality of some in the _ he understands the mentality of some in the south. — he understands the mentality of some in the south. he — he understands the mentality of some in the south, he understands - he understands the mentality of some in the south, he understands the - in the south, he understands the mentality— in the south, he understands the mentality of _ in the south, he understands the mentality of a _ in the south, he understands the mentality of a frame _ in the south, he understands the mentality of a frame of - in the south, he understands the| mentality of a frame of reference in the south, he understands the i mentality of a frame of reference in america _ mentality of a frame of reference in america that's _ mentality of a frame of reference in america that's is _ mentality of a frame of reference in america that's is built— mentality of a frame of reference in america that's is built around - mentality of a frame of reference in america that's is built around a - america that's is built around a certain— america that's is built around a certain degree _ america that's is built around a certain degree of— america that's is built around a certain degree of white - america that's is built around a - certain degree of white supremacy, and he _ certain degree of white supremacy, and he has — certain degree of white supremacy, and he has apologised _ certain degree of white supremacy, and he has apologised for- certain degree of white supremacy, and he has apologised for that, - and he has apologised for that, those _ and he has apologised for that, those links_ and he has apologised for that, those links to _ and he has apologised for that, those links to those, _ and he has apologised for that, those links to those, you - and he has apologised for that, | those links to those, you know, senators — those links to those, you know, senators from _ those links to those, you know, senators from the _ those links to those, you know, senators from the south - those links to those, you know, senators from the south who i those links to those, you know, . senators from the south who may those links to those, you know, - senators from the south who may have old-fashioned — senators from the south who may have old—fashioned views, _ senators from the south who may have old—fashioned views, and _ senators from the south who may have old—fashioned views, and he _ senators from the south who may have old—fashioned views, and he has - old—fashioned views, and he has apologised — old—fashioned views, and he has apologised for _ old—fashioned views, and he has apologised for that, _ old—fashioned views, and he has apologised for that, but - old—fashioned views, and he has apologised for that, but there i old—fashioned views, and he has apologised for that, but there is| old—fashioned views, and he has. apologised for that, but there is a sense _ apologised for that, but there is a sense that — apologised for that, but there is a sense that if — apologised for that, but there is a sense that if anyone _ apologised for that, but there is a sense that if anyone can - apologised for that, but there is a sense that if anyone can build - apologised for that, but there is a sense that if anyone can build a l sense that if anyone can build a consensus, _ sense that if anyone can build a consensus, it's— sense that if anyone can build a consensus, it's him. _ sense that if anyone can build a consensus, it's him. it's- sense that if anyone can build a l consensus, it's him. it's precisely what _ consensus, it's him. it's precisely what steve — consensus, it's him. it's precisely what steve was _ consensus, it's him. it's precisely what steve was suggesting - consensus, it's him. it's precisely what steve was suggesting some | consensus, it's him. it's precisely. what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric— what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric from _ what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric from the _ what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric from the top _ what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric from the top is - what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric from the top is what i what steve was suggesting some of the rhetoric from the top is what is| the rhetoric from the top is what is important. — the rhetoric from the top is what is important. and _ the rhetoric from the top is what is important, and that, _ the rhetoric from the top is what is important, and that, hopefully- the rhetoric from the top is what is important, and that, hopefully in l important, and that, hopefully in the longer—term, _ important, and that, hopefully in the longer—term, could - important, and that, hopefully in the longer—term, could bring - important, and that, hopefully in l the longer—term, could bring some kind of— the longer—term, could bring some kind of change _ the longer—term, could bring some kind of change in— the longer—term, could bring some kind of change in the _ the longer—term, could bring some kind of change in the short - the longer—term, could bring some kind of change in the short term, . kind of change in the short term, it's difficult, _ kind of change in the short term, it's difficult, it's _ kind of change in the short term, it's difficult, it's rocky. - kind of change in the short term, it's difficult, it's rocky. but -

kind of change in the short term, it's difficult, it's rocky. but if- it's difficult, it's rocky. but if there — it's difficult, it's rocky. but if there is— it's difficult, it's rocky. but if there is a _ it's difficult, it's rocky. but if there is a sense, _ it's difficult, it's rocky. but if there is a sense, an- it's difficult, it's rocky. but if. there is a sense, an overarching sense, _ there is a sense, an overarching sense, that _ there is a sense, an overarching sense, that we _ there is a sense, an overarching sense, that we cannot _ there is a sense, an overarching sense, that we cannot as - there is a sense, an overarching sense, that we cannot as a - there is a sense, an overarching. sense, that we cannot as a nation, that is— sense, that we cannot as a nation, that is the — sense, that we cannot as a nation, that is the united _ sense, that we cannot as a nation, that is the united states, - sense, that we cannot as a nation, that is the united states, continuei that is the united states, continue the way— that is the united states, continue the way we — that is the united states, continue the way we have _ that is the united states, continue the way we have in _ that is the united states, continue the way we have in terms - that is the united states, continue the way we have in terms of- that is the united states, continue the way we have in terms of the i that is the united states, continue i the way we have in terms of the way we talk— the way we have in terms of the way we talk about — the way we have in terms of the way we talk about race. _ the way we have in terms of the way we talk about race. then _ the way we have in terms of the way we talk about race. then perhaps i we talk about race. then perhaps that can — we talk about race. then perhaps that can filter— we talk about race. then perhaps that can filter down _ we talk about race. then perhaps that can filter down to _ we talk about race. then perhaps that can filter down to those - that can filter down to those activists _ that can filter down to those activists who _ that can filter down to those activists who are _ that can filter down to those activists who are out - that can filter down to those activists who are out on - that can filter down to those activists who are out on the| activists who are out on the streets. _ activists who are out on the streets, many— activists who are out on the streets, many of _ activists who are out on the streets, many of them - activists who are out on the . streets, many of them whites activists who are out on the _ streets, many of them whites commit has to— streets, many of them whites commit has to be said. — streets, many of them whites commit has to be said, in _ streets, many of them whites commit has to be said, in the _ streets, many of them whites commit has to be said, in the united - has to be said, in the united kingdom, _ has to be said, in the united kingdom, in— has to be said, in the united kingdom, in france, - has to be said, in the united kingdom, in france, in- has to be said, in the united - kingdom, in france, in germany, in australia, _ kingdom, in france, in germany, in australia, in— kingdom, in france, in germany, in australia, in cape _ kingdom, in france, in germany, in australia, in cape town, _ kingdom, in france, in germany, in australia, in cape town, south- australia, in cape town, south africa, — australia, in cape town, south africa, att— australia, in cape town, south africa, all over— australia, in cape town, south africa, all over the _ australia, in cape town, south africa, all over the world - australia, in cape town, south africa, all over the world in- africa, all over the world in canada _ africa, all over the world in canada it— africa, all over the world in canada. if there _ africa, all over the world in canada. if there is - africa, all over the world in. canada. if there is leadership africa, all over the world in- canada. if there is leadership from the top, _ canada. if there is leadership from the top, than — canada. if there is leadership from the top, than that _ canada. if there is leadership from the top, than that mentality- canada. if there is leadership from the top, than that mentality can i the top, than that mentality can steep _ the top, than that mentality can steep down, _ the top, than that mentality can sleep down, and _ the top, than that mentality can sleep down, and it's— the top, than that mentality can sleep down, and it's those - the top, than that mentality canl sleep down, and it's those future leaders _ sleep down, and it's those future leaders in — sleep down, and it's those future leaders in those _ sleep down, and it's those future leaders in those future _ sleep down, and it's those future i leaders in those future progressives who witt— leaders in those future progressives who will be — leaders in those future progressives who will be able _ leaders in those future progressives who will be able to _ leaders in those future progressives who will be able to make _ leaders in those future progressives who will be able to make things - who will be able to make things actually— who will be able to make things actually change. _ who will be able to make things actually change. —— _ who will be able to make things actually change. —— seep - who will be able to make things actually change. —— seep down. i actually change. —— seep down. the opportunity— actually change. —— seep down. the opportunity at _ actually change. —— seep down. the opportunity at the - actually change. —— seep down. the opportunity at the end - actually change. —— seep down. the opportunity at the end of. actually change. —— seep down. i the opportunity at the end of the programme, often when we get time to talk about things that perhaps the three of you think we haven't talked enough about or hasn't been enough reporting of, do you want to take us off on this, bernard? what is the story that you have kind of spotted that you think perhaps we could do well to pay a bit more attention to or might have bigger consequences than the immediate story? {line or might have bigger consequences than the immediate story?- or might have bigger consequences than the immediate story? one of the aood takes than the immediate story? one of the good takes status _ than the immediate story? one of the good takes status come _ than the immediate story? one of the good takes status come out _ than the immediate story? one of the good takes status come out of-

than the immediate story? one of the good takes status come out of the - good takes status come out of the news _ good takes status come out of the news this— good takes status come out of the news this is from germany, where they have — news this is from germany, where they have decided to pay over1 bittion— they have decided to pay over1 billion euros to the people in what is now— billion euros to the people in what is now known as the marriott. for people _ is now known as the marriott. for peopte who — is now known as the marriott. for people who don't know, germany was once in— people who don't know, germany was once in charge of southwest africa where _ once in charge of southwest africa where they committed some of the most _ where they committed some of the most atrocious crimes against those people. _ most atrocious crimes against those people. you — most atrocious crimes against those people, you know, incarceration, all kinds _ people, you know, incarceration, all kinds of— people, you know, incarceration, all kinds of atrocities, and of course, for a _ kinds of atrocities, and of course, for a tong — kinds of atrocities, and of course, for a long time, germany refused to see this _ for a long time, germany refused to see this as— for a long time, germany refused to see this as genocide, and i think it was around — see this as genocide, and i think it was around 2015 when they decided, yes, and _ was around 2015 when they decided, yes, and of course, now that they have _ yes, and of course, now that they have made — yes, and of course, now that they have made this1 billion euros compensation from don't want to call it that, _ compensation from don't want to call it that, they— compensation from don't want to call it that, they don't want to call it reparations or anything of that nature, — reparations or anything of that nature, because according to them, they don't— nature, because according to them, they don't want to set a precedent. it is they don't want to set a precedent. it is a _ they don't want to set a precedent. it is a step— they don't want to set a precedent. it is a step in the right direction, and i_ it is a step in the right direction, and i think— it is a step in the right direction, and i thinka— it is a step in the right direction, and i think a lot of countries around _ and i think a lot of countries around the world and the caribbean, and africa, _ around the world and the caribbean, and africa, and asia, germany, you pay track—

and africa, and asia, germany, you pay back the — and africa, and asia, germany, you pay back the dues, america you pay back the _ pay back the dues, america you pay back the japanese coming back to to do what _ back the japanese coming back to to do what to— back the japanese coming back to to do what to us, we want our reparations, despite the fact that germany— reparations, despite the fact that germany does not want to be seen as that. germany does not want to be seen as that but _ germany does not want to be seen as that but i _ germany does not want to be seen as that. but i think it's a positive step— that. but i think it's a positive step in— that. but i think it's a positive step in the _ that. but i think it's a positive step in the right direction. it�*s step in the right direction. it's interesting — step in the right direction. it�*s interesting clive, putting in the context of britain and other colonial countries, germany has a record of apologising for terrible things it's done in the past. maybe other countries don't, france, britain, don't necessarily have that. president mack run in rwanda saying this we can you know, we should've listened —— president akron. assistant and apology, by the become he said very specifically. absolutely, because that brings tegat— absolutely, because that brings tegatieopardy, _ absolutely, because that brings legaljeopardy, and _ absolutely, because that brings legaljeopardy, and that - absolutely, because that brings legaljeopardy, and that bringsi legaljeopardy, and that brings having — legaljeopardy, and that brings having two— legaljeopardy, and that brings having two hand—outs, - legaljeopardy, and that brings having two hand—outs, you - legaljeopardy, and that brings i having two hand—outs, you know, reparations, — having two hand—outs, you know, reparations, whatever, _ having two hand—outs, you know, reparations, whatever, so- having two hand—outs, you know, reparations, whatever, so you - having two hand—outs, you know, reparations, whatever, so you try| having two hand—outs, you know, . reparations, whatever, so you try as a society— reparations, whatever, so you try as a society or— reparations, whatever, so you try as a society or as— reparations, whatever, so you try as a society or as a _ reparations, whatever, so you try as a society or as a government - reparations, whatever, so you try as a society or as a government to - a society or as a government to frame _ a society or as a government to frame your— a society or as a government to frame your apology— a society or as a government to frame your apology or- a society or as a government to frame your apology or your - a society or as a government tol frame your apology or your level a society or as a government to - frame your apology or your level of culpability — frame your apology or your level of culpability in — frame your apology or your level of culpability in a _ frame your apology or your level of culpability in a way _ frame your apology or your level of culpability in a way that _ frame your apology or your level of culpability in a way that will- frame your apology or your level of culpability in a way that will not - culpability in a way that will not leave _ culpability in a way that will not leave you — culpability in a way that will not leave you open _ culpability in a way that will not leave you open to _ culpability in a way that will not leave you open to having - culpability in a way that will not leave you open to having to - culpability in a way that will not| leave you open to having to fork culpability in a way that will not - leave you open to having to fork out millions _ leave you open to having to fork out millions and — leave you open to having to fork out millions and millions. _ leave you open to having to fork out millions and millions. and - leave you open to having to fork out millions and millions. and it's- millions and millions. and it's tricky— millions and millions. and it's tricky finding _ millions and millions. and it's tricky finding the _ millions and millions. and it's tricky finding the right - millions and millions. and it's tricky finding the right form . millions and millions. and it's| tricky finding the right form of

words. — tricky finding the right form of words. to— tricky finding the right form of words. to be _ tricky finding the right form of words, to be honest _ tricky finding the right form of words, to be honest with- tricky finding the right form of words, to be honest with you, tricky finding the right form of - words, to be honest with you, but president — words, to be honest with you, but president she _ words, to be honest with you, but president she racked _ words, to be honest with you, but president she racked apologised l words, to be honest with you, but i president she racked apologised for some _ president she racked apologised for some of— president she racked apologised for some of france's— president she racked apologised for some of france's past— president she racked apologised for some of france's past colonial- some of france's past colonial misdeeds— some of france's past colonial misdeeds in— some of france's past colonial misdeeds in north _ some of france's past colonial misdeeds in north africa, - some of france's past colonial. misdeeds in north africa, which some of france's past colonial- misdeeds in north africa, which was interesting — misdeeds in north africa, which was interesting it's, _ misdeeds in north africa, which was interesting. it's, yes, _ misdeeds in north africa, which was interesting. it's, yes, it's— misdeeds in north africa, which was interesting. it's, yes, it's a- interesting. it's, yes, it's a difficult~~~ _ interesting. it's, yes, it's a difficult... it's— interesting. it's, yes, it's a difficult... it's a _ interesting. it's, yes, it's a difficult... it's a difficult i interesting. it's, yes, it's a. difficult... it's a difficult way interesting. it's, yes, it's a- difficult... it's a difficult way of dealing — difficult... it's a difficult way of dealing with _ difficult... it's a difficult way of dealing with the _ difficult... it's a difficult way of dealing with the past _ difficult... it's a difficult way of dealing with the past using - difficult... it's a difficult way of dealing with the past using ani dealing with the past using an apology— dealing with the past using an apology or— dealing with the past using an apology or suggesting - dealing with the past using an apology or suggesting that. dealing with the past using ani apology or suggesting that you dealing with the past using an - apology or suggesting that you are culpable~ _ apology or suggesting that you are culpable~ it— apology or suggesting that you are culpable~ it is— apology or suggesting that you are culpable. it is tricky, _ apology or suggesting that you are culpable. it is tricky, and - apology or suggesting that you are culpable. it is tricky, and some - culpable. it is tricky, and some nations— culpable. it is tricky, and some nations find _ culpable. it is tricky, and some nations find it _ culpable. it is tricky, and some nations find it harder— culpable. it is tricky, and some nations find it harder than - culpable. it is tricky, and some. nations find it harder than most. steve, _ nations find it harder than most. steve, what _ nations find it harder than most. steve, what has _ nations find it harder than most. steve, what has caught - nations find it harder than most. steve, what has caught your - nations find it harder than most. i steve, what has caught your eye? well, probably viewers will think, oh, not this again. {30 well, probably viewers will think, oh, not this again.— oh, not this again. go on, go on. the british _ oh, not this again. go on, go on. the british government - oh, not this again. go on, go on. the british government 's - oh, not this again. go on, go on. the british government 's brexit| the british government 's brexit minister, i was in the house of lords this and, again, blamed the european union for what is happening in northern ireland with the so—called protocol. we haven't got time to discuss. now, the protocol is a consequence precisely of lord david frost and borisjohnson's

negotiation. but i think the other interesting twist as we have been talking a little bit aboutjoe biden, joe biden is watching this closely. i don't think he will buy a thing if this all goes badly wrong, the border between great britain and northern ireland, that it was the european union's faults. boris johnson aches for a trade deal with the united states, as part of the post—brexit situation, and wants a close relationship withjoe biden. so david frost, if it does lead to trouble, i think could have consequences with —— which boris johnson wouldn't welcome in terms of his relationship withjoe biden. so it is still going on from its subterranean, but it remains multilayered and its twists and turns. . , multilayered and its twists and turns-_ yes. - multilayered and its twists and - turns._ yes, bitcoin. turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. it's turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. its clean- — turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. its clean- l _ turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. it's clean. i don't _ turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. it's clean. i don't understand - turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. it's clean. i don't understand it - turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. it's clean. i don't understand it in| it's clean. i don't understand it in currencies. — it's clean. i don't understand it in currencies. i_ it's clean. i don't understand it in currencies, i do _ it's clean. i don't understand it in currencies, i do not _ it's clean. i don't understand it in currencies, i do not understand l it's clean. i don't understand it inl currencies, i do not understand it. but i _ currencies, i do not understand it. but i am _ currencies, i do not understand it. but i am finding _ currencies, i do not understand it. but i am finding it _ currencies, i do not understand it. but i am finding it really, - currencies, i do not understand it. but i am finding it really, really. but i am finding it really, really fascinating _ but i am finding it really, really fascinating because _ but i am finding it really, really fascinating because the - but i am finding it really, really fascinating because the police i but i am finding it really, reallyl fascinating because the police in the west— fascinating because the police in the west midlands _ fascinating because the police in the west midlands in— fascinating because the police in the west midlands in england, l fascinating because the police in i the west midlands in england, they were called — the west midlands in england, they were called to — the west midlands in england, they were called to an _ the west midlands in england, they were called to an industrial- the west midlands in england, they were called to an industrial estate i were called to an industrial estate on a tip-off— were called to an industrial estate on a tip-off that _ were called to an industrial estate on a tip—off that there _

were called to an industrial estate on a tip—off that there was - were called to an industrial estate on a tip—off that there was a - on a tip—off that there was a cannabis— on a tip—off that there was a cannabis producing - on a tip—off that there was a i cannabis producing operation on a tip—off that there was a - cannabis producing operation going on. cannabis producing operation going on, , ., cannabis producing operation going on. . . , cannabis producing operation going on. . m, , on. loads of electricity being used. because the _ on. loads of electricity being used. because the electricity _ on. loads of electricity being used. because the electricity had - on. loads of electricity being used. because the electricity had been i because the electricity had been spiked _ because the electricity had been spiked up~ — because the electricity had been spiked up. they— because the electricity had been spiked up. they raid _ because the electricity had been spiked up. they raid this - because the electricity had been spiked up. they raid this place l because the electricity had been . spiked up. they raid this place and they find _ spiked up. they raid this place and they find it — spiked up. they raid this place and they find it is — spiked up. they raid this place and they find it is actually _ spiked up. they raid this place and they find it is actually a _ spiked up. they raid this place and they find it is actually a bunch - spiked up. they raid this place and they find it is actually a bunch of l they find it is actually a bunch of computers — they find it is actually a bunch of computers with _ they find it is actually a bunch of computers with cables _ they find it is actually a bunch of l computers with cables everywhere mining _ computers with cables everywhere mining for— computers with cables everywhere mining for bitcoin _ computers with cables everywhere mining for bitcoin around - computers with cables everywhere mining for bitcoin around the - computers with cables everywhere i mining for bitcoin around the world. now, _ mining for bitcoin around the world. now. it _ mining for bitcoin around the world. now. it is _ mining for bitcoin around the world. now. it is not — mining for bitcoin around the world. now, it is not illegal— mining for bitcoin around the world. now, it is not illegal in— mining for bitcoin around the world. now, it is not illegal in this - now, it is not illegal in this country— now, it is not illegal in this country to— now, it is not illegal in this country to mine _ now, it is not illegal in this country to mine for- now, it is not illegal in this country to mine for bitcoini now, it is not illegal in this - country to mine for bitcoin from all the permits — country to mine for bitcoin from all the permitsiust_ country to mine for bitcoin from all the permitsjust been— country to mine for bitcoin from all the permitsjust been made - country to mine for bitcoin from all the permitsjust been made illegal| the permitsjust been made illegal in china _ the permits 'ust been made illegal in china. the permits 'ust been made illegal in chinafi sut— the permits 'ust been made illegal in china.�* but it _ the permits 'ust been made illegal in china.�* but it is _ the permitsjust been made illegal in china. right. but it is obviously| in china. right. but it is obviously illeual in china. right. but it is obviously illeaalto in china. right. but it is obviously illegal to nick _ in china. right. but it is obviously illegal to nick off— in china. right. but it is obviously illegal to nick off with _ in china.- but it is obviously illegal to nick off with electricity. illegal to nick off with electricity that you — illegal to nick off with electricity that you are _ illegal to nick off with electricity that you are not _ illegal to nick off with electricity that you are not paying - illegal to nick off with electricity that you are not paying for. - illegal to nick off with electricity that you are not paying for. i- illegal to nick off with electricityi that you are not paying for. ijust find this~~~ — that you are not paying for. ijust find this... what _ that you are not paying for. ijust find this... what a _ that you are not paying for. ijust find this... what a fascinating - find this... what a fascinating twist— find this... what a fascinating twist on— find this... what a fascinating twist on the _ find this... what a fascinating twist on the whole _ find this... what a fascinating twist on the whole idea - find this... what a fascinating twist on the whole idea of - find this... what a fascinating| twist on the whole idea of this currency— twist on the whole idea of this currency that _ twist on the whole idea of this currency that lives _ twist on the whole idea of this currency that lives in - twist on the whole idea of this i currency that lives in computers twist on the whole idea of this - currency that lives in computers and you did _ currency that lives in computers and you did for— currency that lives in computers and you did for it— currency that lives in computers and you did for it around _ currency that lives in computers and you did for it around the _ currency that lives in computers and you did for it around the world, - currency that lives in computers and you did for it around the world, and | you did for it around the world, and it also— you did for it around the world, and it also actually _ you did for it around the world, and it also actually has _ you did for it around the world, and it also actually has raised _ it also actually has raised questions _ it also actually has raised questions about- it also actually has raised questions about the - it also actually has raised - questions about the economic and environmental— questions about the economic and environmental cost _ questions about the economic and environmental cost on _ questions about the economic and environmental cost on money - questions about the economic and . environmental cost on money itself, you know. _ environmental cost on money itself, you know. mining _ environmental cost on money itself, you know, mining the _ environmental cost on money itself, you know, mining the metals, - environmental cost on money itself, you know, mining the metals, you l you know, mining the metals, you know, _ you know, mining the metals, you know. forging _ you know, mining the metals, you know, forging the _ you know, mining the metals, you know, forging the metals, - you know, mining the metals, you know, forging the metals, paper. you know, mining the metals, you| know, forging the metals, paper in making _ know, forging the metals, paper in making currency— know, forging the metals, paper in making currency and _ know, forging the metals, paper in making currency and so _ know, forging the metals, paper in making currency and so on. - making currency and so on. fascinating, _ making currency and so on. fascinating, fascinating - making currency and so on. - fascinating, fascinating society issue _ fascinating, fascinating society issue that _ fascinating, fascinating society issue that we've _ fascinating, fascinating society issue that we've come - fascinating, fascinating society issue that we've come across l fascinating, fascinating society- issue that we've come across here. it is. _

issue that we've come across here. it is. indeed — issue that we've come across here. it is. indeed i_ issue that we've come across here. it is, indeed. i guess _ issue that we've come across here. it is, indeed. i guess if— issue that we've come across here. it is, indeed. i guess if they- issue that we've come across here. it is, indeed. i guess if they get- it is, indeed. i guess if they get fines, they could all do not always just pay the fine with bitcoin with any luck. that's it for dateline london this week. back next week. bye—bye. well, some of us probably looked at the sky today wondering where's all this fantastic weather we're promising. just a little while longer. it is going to improve. it was a temporary blip on friday. it is going to turn increasingly sunny and warmer as we go through the bank holiday weekend into next week. but here's the cloud from friday, you can see a little hit and miss. there were some showers around. the best of the weather was across northern scotland

and closer to the north sea coast, and that's because high pressure's building here. the weather fronts which are trying to get in are stopped by this area of high pressure — think of the high pressure as a mountain — and it stops the weather fronts coming off the atlantic. so, the weather front that's been here across the west is in the process of disintegrating, so it's raining itself out. the clouds are starting to break up, but it does mean that saturday morning is going to be pretty overcast, murky and even drizzly in some areas, so we will have to wait a little while longer. we'll call it a cloudy morning on saturday, but then brightening up as we go through the course of the afternoon. i think second half of the afternoon should be absolutely fine for most of us. so, here's the forecast for saturday. starts off a little grey, the best of the sunshine probably across eastern areas of the country. could be a few local brief showers here and there. look at the temperatures — 21 in london, 19 in liverpool, we're expecting around 20 or so in glasgow. and high pressure is firmly

in charge of our weather on sunday. light winds, strong sunshine, don't forget that. we've not been used to the sun so far this spring, so slap on the sunscreen if you're out for any lengthy period of time. temperatures up to 23 degrees around merseyside on sunday. after that, the high pressure really does become quite dominant across the northwest of europe, so notjust here in the uk but scandinavia, parts of central europe as well. the high pressure is a vortex in itself, so it's actually going to be drawing in warmth from the southern climes and spreading it across the uk and keeping the weather fronts at bay out in the atlantic. so, our temperatures on monday easily getting up into the low 20s throughout the country. that's it from me. enjoy the bank holiday weekend. bye.

this is bbc news. the headlines... a string of failings by police, probation workers and mi5 contributed to the killing of two people by a convicted terrorist — an inquest finds. jack merritt and saskia jones were "unlawfully killed" by usman khan in 2019. their families say the authorities let them down. they had this hugely dangerous person— they had this hugely dangerous person and they lost sight of him being _ person and they lost sight of him being dangerous, really, from the beginning — being dangerous, really, from the beaainnin. ~ ., being dangerous, really, from the beaainnin. ~ . ., beginning. with all that information, _ beginning. with all that information, you - beginning. with all that information, you would | beginning. with all that - information, you would have beginning. with all that _ information, you would have thought that the authorities would have put in place a system to monitor and manage them effectively and keep the public safe, and they fail to do that. as the number of new uk coronavirus

cases rises to more than 4,000, there's growing concern over whether restrictions can