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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  May 29, 2021 11:30am-12:01pm BST

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his extraordinary seven—hour testimony before parliamentarians on wednesday has the potential to be highly damaging, not least to his former boss. borisjohnson is, according to dominic cummings, unfit to lead the country. steve richards, there was huge build—up to this testimony. did it deliver in terms of an informed critique about how government functioned at one of the toughest times civilian governments have experienced 7 yes, i think it did. you say there was a huge build—up. you and i waited for many of these political dramas, and that were anti—climactic when they happened, so i assumed this was going to be one of those. it really wasn't, notjust because it went on for so long, i watched, like you did, the whole lot. but as you say, here was boris johnson's chosen senior adviser, who was on the inside during all of these key moments making a series of extraordinary assertions.
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now, some say with some credence, that here is a subjective, unreliable narrator, but that would only be true if what we all know and experience was with at odds with what he was saying. but we know they locked down late in the first lockdown, when football matches and rock concerts were taking place. we know was a dispute in autumn last year about whether to lockdown. there were remarkable moments, like when he said, this hasn't been reported much, when borisjohnson went on to him, when borisjohnson went on, as he put it, dominic cummings, for a two—week holiday in february 2020, they were almost relieved that he wasn't going to the cobra meetings, the emergency meetings, because they thought he would be almost unsafe for the country if he did attend. now, these things are astonishing, and even if they don't
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have an impact on voters, to be honest, they should do. it voters want to turn away, they have got every right to do so, but they are remarkable insights, albeit from a subjective perspective, into the chaos behind the scenes of the british government tackling what is unquestionably the biggest challenge since 1916. one of the specific allegations that was made against the government was over the decision to allow hospital patients who had been treated for covid to return to care homes, apparently having been tested first, but, of course, it turned out many of them hadn't been tested, and the consequence was a lot of people dying in care homes. you work in this sector, you understand a lot, you talk to a lot of people in this sector. can you help us with this? what did people think was going to happen, and is it fair of the government to say, "actually, everything was moving, the testing facilities were not there, and we did the best we could do
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in the circumstances." hindsight is a really wonderful thing, and i don't think it's fair of the government to take the stand that they did everything that they could. i live in an area of the uk, in sussex, where from brighton to hove to hastings to kent, dozens of care homes were experiencing what they didn't plan for, what they didn't have the guidance about. the government actually changed its mind about five times since january 2020 up toward april with different guidance. that was confusing for the hospitals, that was confusing for the care homes. i know for a fact because the care standards specifically says when you are leaving the hospital, you should have a discharge plan, therefore, if you go from hospital to home, it should be carefully planned by the hospital, and what we see by the hospital, and what we had was a panic reaction.
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a reaction that was almost without leadership in terms of the government response to that. people were actually sent back into these care homes without the testing, without the proper plan from the care homes. i think when the promised report into all this fiasco comes around in the future — 2022, i don't know why it will take so long, because dominic cummings has already revealed a lot of what went on — i think it will prove that a lot of mistakes were made because people just didn't know what they were doing in government. i think dominic cummings has got his finger on something really substantial. just didn't know — this is interesting, clive. you spent a lot of time visiting hospitals over the last year, reporting of the experiences on the front line. it's fair to say a lot of people in the medical profession just didn't know because they were dealing with an unknown illness. in that context, when the government says, "we acted on the scientific advice," they clearly did, but even the scientists weren't sure, and therefore, are we trying to load too much criticism onto government of handling something
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when it was kind of blindsided by the experience, as governments were elsewhere in the world? i mean, everyone was blindsided. this was a particularly difficult situation that i think it took. a long time for policymakers, governments, others in - the community, and in wider society, to fully understand. _ i know going into hospitals- and filming back in april, march, april, may of last year, anecdotally, certainly, i people were saying, "look, i if you end up in the hospital, you are going to get covid. it is the place where this thing is going to breed."j therefore, if you are sending people into hospitals - and you haven't tested them, you are going to get... - if you are sending people into care homes, rather, from hospitals, i having been in hospitals, you are going to set - a wildfire running. and as you say, you know, it is notjust england, - wales and scotland where this was a problem. _ the united states, the first case of a covid victim - in the united states was in a care home in seattle. _
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that is where the first big outbreak took place. - we know that people in france, the relatives of people in care l homes who have died as a result| of covid, they are going to court. they started legal action backl in march to try to get answers. half of all the covid deaths - in germany were in care homes. this isn'tjust a problem that britain had to deal with. - | it seems to have been a blind spotj for policymakers around the world. i i think it will be one of the mostl significant chapters of the inquiry, as bernard pointed out, - of the inquiry when it eventually comes sometime next year. i think the fascination for the public, also, i is the fact that we talking the mostl vulnerable members of our society, apart from children. people who perhaps have dementia, who are old and are frail, _ left potentially at the mercy of this killer. _ i think that has sort - of raised the stakes in terms of the debate about this, - particularly after what dominic cummings said in his testimony. before that commons committee. the broader political questions
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beyond just the pandemic. there is a lot of criticism from dominic cummings — some have dismissed a lot of it as personal enmity, as kind of revenge, bitterness for the way he left government. a couple of interesting aspects, one i guess you can criticise him for saying he was trying to control things, he says he was trying to change the structure around borisjohnson to try and stop what he thought were extremely bad decisions. one might wonder if that is really the role of an adviser. but he then quotes the prime minister, he says, "you are right, i am more frightened of you, dominic cummings, having the power to stop the chaos than i am of the chaos. chaos isn't that bad, chaos means that everyone has to look to me to see who is in charge." i wonder, assuming that that is a correct representation of what borisjohnson said to him, what that tells us, or might tell us, about
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the conduct of government — and what your views are on that? yes, and again, you could say, well, dominic cummings was out to get borisjohnson, and again, i would argue that that would be a perfectly valid thing to say if it was at odds with what we know. but all the evidence suggests he's a chaotic figure, borisjohnson. as a journalist, as a broadcaster, i used to do programmes with him sometimes, there was an air of chaos around. but does that matter? yes, it does matter in terms of clarity of policymaking, delivering policy, of being not only decisive, but it's about making the right calls based on the evidence in front of you, which could be complex, detailed, dull, technocratic. and, you know, what we see suggests that that isn't.
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borisjohnson is a great vote winner, let's be absolutely clear about that, but that side of it chimes with what dominic cummings said. and his appointments in cabinet are fairly mediocre, unthreatening figures wholly dependent on his patronage. it reinforces the sense that rather than allowing others, big figures to have space to impose order and control, he would prefer the chaos around him so he retains a degree of control. i think it really matters in terms of the conduct of government. in britain, we have a cabinet—based system in theory, although cummings made clear the cabinet was virtually wholly bypassed. but a kind of presidential culture, where prime ministers wield considerable power, especially in an emergency, and so it does matter when his most senior adviser says he prefers chaos
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to order so he has a kind of space to rule. bernard, last thought on this? yes, i do agree with what steve is saying, because i think the adviser should never become the news. and what happened throughout this pandemic is what i would call political domination by one individual. and the sad incident of this pandemic, where so many thousands of people have lost their lives, becomes a political, sort of, kicking ball, and hopefully when the report and the inquiry comes around, a lot of what he is saying, i repeat again, will not be news any more. thank you all very much. joe biden wanted to mark the first anniversary of the killing of george floyd — a black american murdered by a white american police officer — by signing into law a wide—ranging reform of the police. in washington, though, the most powerful political force is inertia. tuesday's commemorations came and went with the george floyd justice in policing act stranded in the senate. clive, you're just back
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from the united states, just a matter of days ago. you've been looking at this whole question of what, if anything, has changed since george floyd was murdered. what is your impression of biden's america and its first few months, in terms of how it's reacted to what has gone on, and reacted to that year of protest that has followed? to be honest with you, - it is notjust biden's america — it's macron's france, | it'sjohnson's britain. there is a real sense that societies have actually i moved backwards 12 months- on since george floyd was murdered. it's interesting to sort of see - this, i went to france and i went to the united states to look at this, the sort of- trauma of a year ago. the world has managed to move on, i and it always does after something i cataclysmic, as with what happened with george floyd. _ overtime, the urgency of that. moment just seems to dissipate. frankly, that seems to have been lwhat i've experienced as havingl
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happened, certainly in france and in the united states. - and you even get a backlash. you get a sense of why - are we penalising the whole of the police force in britain, - america, france, germany, wherever, for a few rotten apples? and that seems to be the attitude i i've discovered from the democracies of the west as a result of what happened. - you've got people who are sayingl that, actually, there isn't systemic racism in a lot of these societies, you know, while lots of people i are willing to claim that _ that was the case within the white heat of the moment. of george floyd dying. that white heat has gotten cooler and cooler and cooler. _ we had a commission. here that suggested that inequalities in pay, - jobs, you know, the lack of black representation _ at the highest levels of business, higher incarceration rates,
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stop and search rates — i which are the same in america and the uk and france — - nothing to do with systemic racism. it's somehow something to do with something else, - backgrounds, society in general, nothing to do with race. - i and it's been fascinating seeing i the energy and the electric sense of change, that many people felt had i to come, watching that slowly ebb. i away over 12 months to the point. where society has actually seemed, to me, to be going backwards. and it's a really weird i thing to watch, actually. really weird. bernard, to pick up on clive�*s analogy there — whether it is or isn't a few rotten apples, no—one seems to be still asking the question, what causes the apples to rot? i wouldn't call it a few rotten apples. clive has seen this during his work around different countries. i think it's more systematic, it's widespread, it's long—standing. you have to ask yourself,
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why have black lives matter become so popular in such a short time after what has been going going on for hundreds of years? it tells me there is some systematic practices that have been going on in these countries — in france, in britain, in the united kingdom — and we are talking about police actions now, and joe biden says he wants to be able to make that change in terms of policing, but look what has happened in the last week or so in the us congress. the proposal being put forward has been stalled. so that tells you people, as clive sad, are not really ready to actually move forward. it becomes something that everybody wants to be part of in terms of human empathy, but then people just go back to what they are used to. i think this is systematic of why many people, for example,
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we talked about the covid a while ago, why many people of asian, african, caribbean backgrounds are refusing to take the injections, because they see the injections as part of the old thing to do with black lives, policing, systematic structures of society, and we have a serious problem, but it demands serious solutions, and we are not getting it at all. clive is right, you know, it goes on in public news for a short time, and then it goes back to the old comfort zone. steve, if black people see a systemic problem, white people see no systemic problem. if we are looking in the states, how on earth does a white president or a black vice president overcome that in a political system where culture wars are almost starting to define the political parties themselves? well, they have got limited room for manoeuvre, but they have got some room. i don't overestimate the long—term
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potency of a tragedy. as clive suggests, i hadn't realised how things had gone back in such a short period of time, but to be honest, depressed but not totally surprised. but i wouldn't also underestimate the power of the political altar. it is different that joe biden is president, speaking and responding to these kinds of events compared, say, to donald trump. i mean, it's a statement of the obvious, but that is a big difference. but in terms of power, i mean, you know, i was talking earlier about britain having a sort of presidential culture in terms of domestic policy. quite often a prime minister has more control, albeit in a much smaller power, britain, than a president does in domestic policy in the united states. but i think he will use the altar to try and change the mood. he has already done so on several occasions.
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now, i'm not saying that makes a practical difference in the short—term, it doesn't, but i wouldn't understate that element which has changed in the united states. but to go back to my original point, these are appalling tragedies. if you look back, there are protests, there are ritualistic protests, they still go on, footballers in britain still take the knee and so on. but then, as clive has observed, it fades. it needs political will to bring about change, in the end. but i think the difference between biden and trump is profound, and that is a new element to the equation, a positive one. clive, one of the most memorable rows during the democratic presidential primaries was when kamala harris took onjoe biden over his previous record on race, talked about how the young congressman had been, in her view, too willing to compromise with some of the old racists who then used to operate in the senate
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and in the house of representatives, and in his own state of delaware, how he had been willing to support busing, the hugely controversial policy of taking people from areas where there was white resistance to schooling them, even if they lived in those areas, moving them miles and miles to go to a school where the authorities could get them into that school. is he making good use, enough use, of kamala harris in the circumstances, given that this is such a sensitive question? yes, it's a good question, - and he did deploy her, as it were, to sort of deal with the situation on the border, with migrants- flooding in from mexico. and from south america. it could be argued that perhaps he isn't deploying her- as well as perhaps he could, - and effectively enough in regards to the george floyd policing bill. but i think there is a sense that because joe biden knows - those good old boys, - he understands the mentality of some in the south, - he understands the mentality of a frame of reference in america that is built around a certain-
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degree of white supremacy. and he has apologised for those links to those, you know, - senators from the south who may have old—fashioned views, _ he has apologised for that. but there is a sense that if anyone can build a consensus, it's him. i it's precisely what steve - was suggesting, that the rhetoric from the top is what is important, and that, hopefully _ in the longer—term, could bring some kind of change. _ in the short term, it's difficult, it's rocky. i but if there is a sense, an overarching sense, i that we cannot as a nation, that is the united states, l continue the way we have in terms of the way we talk about race, - then perhaps that can filter down to those activists - who got out on the streets, many |of them white, it has to be said, | in the united kingdom, in france, in germany, | in australia, in cape town, south africa, all over- the world, in canada. if there is leadership from the top, |
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than that mentality can seep down, and it's those future leaders i and those future progressives who perhaps will be able to make things actually change. _ 0pportunity at the end of the programme when we get time to talk about things that perhaps the three of you think we haven't talked enough about or hasn't been enough reporting of. do you want to kick us off on this, bernard? what is the story that you have kind of spotted that you think perhaps we could do well to pay a bit more attention to or might have bigger consequences than the immediate story? one of the good things that has come out of the news this week is from germany, where they have decided to pay over 1 billion euros compensation to the herero and nama people in what is now known as namibia. for people who don't know, germany was once in charge of south—west africa, where they committed some of the most atrocious crimes against those people, you know, incarceration, all kinds of atrocities.
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of course, for a long time, germany refused to see this as genocide, and i think it was around 2015 when they decided, yes, and of course, now that they have made this 1 billion euro compensation, they don't want to call it that, they don't want to call it reparations, or anything of that nature, because according to them, they don't want to set a precedent. it is a step in the right direction, and i think a lot of countries around the world, in the caribbean, and africa, and asia, germany, around the world, in the caribbean, and africa, will say "germany, you've payed back the dues, america, you've payed back the japanese. now it's time for the namibians, we want our reparations," despite the fact that germany does not want to be seen as that. but i think it's a very positive step in the right direction. it's interesting, clive, putting in the context of britain and other colonial countries. germany has a record of apologising for terrible things it's done in the past. maybe other countries — france, britain — don't necessarily have that.
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president macron in rwanda saying you know, we should've listened to the warning. this isn't an apology, by the way, he said very specifically. absolutely, because that brings legaljeopardy, i and that brings having two hand—outs, you know, - reparations, whatever, so you try as a societyl or as a government to frame youri apology or your level of culpability in a way that will not leave . you open to having to fork out millions and millions. and it's tricky finding i the right form of words, to be honest with you, - but president chirac apologised for some of france's past colonial misdeeds in north africa, - which was interesting. yes, it's a difficult... i it's a difficult way of dealing i with the past, using an apology or suggesting that you are culpable.
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it is tricky, and some nations find it harder than most. _ steve, what has caught your eye? well, probably, viewers will think, "oh, no, not this again." go on, go on. the british government's brexit minister was in the house of lords this week and, again, blamed the european union for what is happening in northern ireland with the so—called protocol, which we haven't got time to discuss. now, the protocol is a consequence precisely of lord david frost and borisjohnson�*s negotiation. but i think the other interesting twist, as we have been talking a little bit aboutjoe biden, joe biden is watching this closely. i don't think he will buy a thing if this all goes badly wrong, the border between great britain and northern ireland, that it was the european union's fault. borisjohnson aches for a trade deal with the united states, as part of the post—brexit situation and wants a close
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relationship withjoe biden. sir david frost's machismo, if it does lead to trouble, i think could have consequences which borisjohnson wouldn't welcome in terms of his relationship withjoe biden. so, it is still going on, its subterranean, but it remains multilayered and its twists and turns. finally, clive? yes, bitcoin. i don't understand it in currencies, i do not understand it. _ but i am finding it really, really fascinating because the police i in the west midlands in england, |they were called to an industrial| estate on a tip—off that there was a cannabis producing - operation going on. loads of electricity being used. because the electricity had been spiked up. . they raid this place, - and they find it is actually of computers with cables everywhere, l mining for bitcoin around the world. i now, it is not illegal in thisi country to mine for bitcoin.
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itjust been made illegal in china. right. but it is obviously illegal to nick off with electricity that - you are not paying for. ijust find this _ a fascinating twist on the whole idea of this currency that lives in computers and you dig - for it around the world, - and it also actually has raised questions about the economic and environmental cost - on money itself, you know, . mining the metals, you know, forging the metals, paper- in making currency and so on. fascinating, fascinating society- issue that we've come across here. it is indeed. i guess if they get fines, they could always just pay the fine with bitcoin with any luck. that's it for dateline london this week. back same time next week. bye— bye.
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hello there. finally, we got there. it's been a miserable month of may, but we are closing out this bank holiday weekend or some dry, settled and sunny weather. this was dorset earlier this morning. that has been somewhat low cloud, mist and fog around. but we are optimistic that we'll thing and break. the morning satellite picture showing how extensive the cloud was. in some areas, airwas extensive the cloud was. in some areas, air was thick enough for morning drizzle. the sunshine nibbling away at it quite nicely now. more sunshine coming through in the afternoon, temperatures will start to climb. that they motive of the risk of an isolated shower, petition to the north and west. the best of the sunshine and warmth perhaps in east anglia, south—east england. if you are out with friends
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and family this afternoon, do not forget uv levels now that the sun is very strong. we are expecting to be high fairly widely across the country. the warmth continues into the early evening, so if you are planning a barbecue should be fine and dry. through the night, though cloud rolling in off the north sea. temperatures will hold up quite nicely, ranging from 6—10 , but it does mean a potential murky start once again a long exposed north sea coast. high pressure remains with us, slowly drifting eastwards, not much in the way of wind around on a sunday, a good deal of dry weather again in the forecast. the sunshine will nibble away at the cloud, a lovely afternoon in prospect for many. just the chance of an isolated shower, but you would be unlucky if you catch one of those. as we move
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out of sunday into monday, high—pressure continue to drift off into the north sea, the winds will pick up coming in off the near continent, a warmer source of air. bank holiday monday could be warmer still, temperatures could potentially peak at 2a celsius. that is above average for the time of year. it does look as though this trend will for our week ahead. it is getting a little bit fresher as we go through the week, but a lot of dry weather for go through the week, but a lot of dry weatherfor our go through the week, but a lot of dry weather for our first week of june.
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this is bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak with the latest headlines in the uk and around the world. thousands of manchester city and chelsea fans are in portugal where the teams meet for the champions league final. it will mean absolutely everything. we have been fantastic since 2008 and won every trophy available to as apart from this one. you and won every trophy available to as apart from this one.— apart from this one. you have to wear a mask— apart from this one. you have to wear a mask and _ apart from this one. you have to wear a mask and it _ apart from this one. you have to wear a mask and it is _ apart from this one. you have to wear a mask and it is quite - apart from this one. you have to wear a mask and it is quite hot l apart from this one. you have to i wear a mask and it is quite hot and sweatx _ wear a mask and it is quite hot and sweatx it— wear a mask and it is quite hot and sweatx it is— wear a mask and it is quite hot and sweaty. it is really inconvenient but it _ sweaty. it is really inconvenient but it is — sweaty. it is really inconvenient but it is worth it. it is really inconvenient but it is worth it. the us imposes sanctions on belarus — calling the forced diversion of a passenger plane �*an affront to international norms'. a teenager appears in court charged with conspiracy
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to murder over the shooting of the black lives matter activist, sasha johnson.

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