government, ousting benjamin netanyahu as prime minister after 12 years in power. it will be led for two years by the right—wing nationalist politician naftali bennett. he will then hand over to yair lapid, of the centrist yesh atid, for two more years. the g7 summit in south west england, has ended with a final communique that included the promise of a billion covid vaccine doses to the poorer nations of the world — and more action on climate change. but the un secretary—general and aid agencies said more was needed. queen elizabeth has welcomed the us president and first lady for sunday afternoon tea at windsor castle. mr biden now moves on to brussels for meetings with nato and the eu before a summit with vladimir putin in geneva on wendesday. it will be their first in person meeting since mr biden took office. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. sport is a massive global business, and the best athletes in the most popular sports earn mind—boggling sums of money. but even they struggle to compete with the off—field earning power of the promoters and agents, who wield enormous power behind the scenes. my guest is the veteran promoter barry hearn, who made his name in snooker and boxing, and built a business worth hundreds of millions of dollars. has money spoiled sport?

barry hearn, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. it's a pleasure to be here. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. you have spent a life in sport. was it all about business for you? no, i mean, it started off and still remains to this day a question of passion. making money is, you know, not easy sometimes, but you have a chance to do whateverjob you want to do in life. i suppose with me, i started off wanting to be a great sportsman, but then found out i didn't really have the ability. so next best thing, let's get involved with the promotion of sport, and we did that by promoting sports that we have passion for and that doesn't seem to make it a job, really.

it's been nearly 50 years ofjust pleasure. promoting sport, of course, depends on having high—profile events and usually events with fans watching and creating an atmosphere. that hasn't been possible for the past year and more because of the pandemic. so before we get to your past, just talk to me about the present. how difficult has the last year been? i think in my nearly 50 years of involvement with sports promotions, the last 15 months have been, without doubt, the most difficult and most challenging that i've ever had to deal with. now, i've gone through three orfour recessions, enormous numbers of other problems around the world. nothing compares with covid because we found ourselves, when the pandemic began, as a company that promotes around 650 event days per year — and suddenly, we're promoting zero events. and not only do you have responsibilities to staff, but to the thousands of sportsmen and women who rely

on events to make their living. so, it was a huge time of pressure which, through a mixture of hard work and creativeness, we ended up getting through it quite well, in as far as behind—closed—doors events, more creative events, like darts at home, filmed on your iphone. broadcasters loved us because there wasn't very much else on — and we actually, dare i say it, we've actually done more sporting events and more hours of broadcast than we would do in a normal year. and we've learned a lot of lessons in that period. you were brought up a working class lad in the north—east fringes of london, and your genius in a way, was as a young man spotting the potential for some of the most unglamorous sports you can think of — and i'm thinking now of snooker and darts, as well. you saw the potential to turn those from, sort of, the indoor sports played in smoky clubs to something that could truly become mass—audience, television—based

sports. how and why did you see that potential? when i looked at it, ijust thought, you know, this is where i'd be on a normal night. i'd love to be here, because, you know, i like the action, i liked the fact that darts in particular was a party night. snooker was a bit more deeper, more cathedral silence, but you tailor—made each event for the target market you were trying to attract. it sounds easy, and it's not. i'm just wondering about your mentality at that time because you're in your 20s at this point, and we're talking about the 1970s, going into the 1980s. were you, in a way, trying to take on the snobbery maybe of some of the sporting establishment? because you were this working—class kid, and you were a tough... yeah, no, i know. ..aggressive young man at that point. i had a lot of issues to deal with personally. i think i grew up with a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. you know, we were one of the great have—nots

and i looked at the haves and said, why? and this extended not just to your own life. you know, my father died very young. he was a bus driver. my mother cleaned houses. so i grew up with a sense of feeling that we'd perhaps been the forgotten tribe. i think subsequent generations have had different feelings on the same subject — being forgotten. but in my mind, i had a... i think i decided once, it was almost like you against the world and we were going to show them that we could deliver, you know, great value, great entertainment at great value. that's was the key issue, at great value, because, frankly, in the early days, there wasn't an awful lot for the working class to have a smile on their face. but i could take them into this fantasy land, if you like, and let them leave with a smile on their face and something to talk about the following day. that was the plan. and what you also taught other people in sport was the importance of selling personalities, characters. and particularly in snooker, you did that. even with steve davis,

the young man who you worked with, and he became world champion, and you made a whole point of emphasising just how boring this guy was because his own boringness became his selling point, his unique selling point. and you did it with others. i mean, the whole snooker tour was yours, in a way, with alex "hurricane" higgins and all these other characters. what was it about the personalities that were so important? i learned early doors, looking outside of sport, that the biggest, the big audience earners were soap operas. whether it was eastenders, or coronation street, or bonanza or dallas. and it was all built around personalities. the storylines were not different, no different most of the time to other programmes, but we tuned on because we had favourites or we had people we didn't like. we became involved with the back stories of the key figures. so, my early ideas was,

let's adopt the same principle with sport, let's build... we're notjust in this to build a sport, we're in it to create opportunities — and by doing that, we need to create characters that people could either associate with, disassociate with, but certainly engage, certainly make them a focal point. and it worked because on snooker, as you said quite rightly, we didn't change anyone�*s personality, wejust enlarged it, you know? steve davis was quite quiet and shy, so we made him "the boring one", you know? jimmy white was a normal, very normal kid, but we made him the artful dodger, if you like. so, it wasn't a new idea. it was the first time it'd actually been brought into sport, where being good was important, but being famous was perhaps more so. so what do you make, barry hearn, of what's happening in sport today and in particular right now? cricket, for example, has this huge controversy because there's a young england cricketer, ollie robinson, who

has just been told he can no longer represent his country. he's been suspended because of tweets that were unearthed that he had put out there some 8—9 years ago, which were, some of them, racially offensive, and which the cricket board has decided to disqualify him from representing his country today. if sportsmen and women are going to bejudged on that basis — comments on social media going back years — where's the room for character, personality? i think you've got a very valid point there, and i'm not clever enough to give you the complete answer. i have some guiding principles. number one is, you cannot stop people working. you must never stop someone earning a living. of course, the overriding principle is there are rules in our world that must be followed. when something's as historic as that, it doesn't make it any better or worse, for being historic — it's still out there.

and in today's world, sportsmen and women have got to learn to govern themselves within fair and normal boundaries. i do feel, however, that the fact that social media has retained some rather — and i'm sure this is going to apply, by the way, if you went into many people's social media background, this is going to be a recurring theme. there's no doubt that this young man has done something wrong and he must, as he has, hold his hands up. number one is the apology. number two is the punishment, and you should bear in mind common sense. common sense says the views expressed were not acceptable — at any level — but i think the right of a man to work is equally important. i would've much preferred ollie robinson to have received a massive financial fine, with the proceeds of that fine being sent to a charitable base, that perhaps works

in the area of which he was decided... you know, which it was decided he had been inappropriate to. i mean, you're the guy who believes that sportspeople can be promoted, above all, as personalities. but do you now advise the sportsmen and women that you work with that you manage, do you tell them to be very careful about what they put out there on social media? and do you tell them to go back through their past, and delete anything that might be regarded as sensitive? no, i haven't gone to that level, probably because i haven't thought about it enough. but what we do do with our current crop of personalities that we're building on or working with, we have a section of people that will advise them on their social media, on what they can and can't say. and we're educating not just on social media, we're actually educating people to say, these comments are wrong and you shouldn't be making them, you should not have made them, and you shouldn't even want to

make them or even think of making them. but it doesn't stop the personality still coming through. you just have to do it in an educated, smart, savvy way, that puts across your personality, that makes your image more acceptable and brighter and inspires other people to follow your example. and making offensive tweets or whatever are not the way forward to make you more desirable as a personality. so, it's an educational process. we're on the way, and i'm sure there's a long journey ahead for a lot of people. in a way, we're talking here about the intersection of sport and ethics, and morality. i want to talk to you about boxing, one sport in which you have made shed—loads of money over many years. you have also said this about boxing. "it has always been," you've said, "a messy, horrible business. i've been in 12 sports, boxing has caused more heartbreak, more sleepless night,

more ulcers than any other." why are you in boxing if it is such a horrible, nasty business? because of two reasons. one, there's no question for the type of people that participate in that particular sport at a high level — it changes their lives and it changes their family's lives and, advised properly, can change generations within that family. i mean, at the end of the day, we cannot be too corinthian in our standards. we have to live in the real world, and the real world is governed by money — whether you're a footballer or a boxer, it doesn't make any difference. that is true. of course, we've seen boxers who have earned, literally earned vast fortunes. we've also seen boxers, and you've been involved in fights where life—threatening damage has been done to young men, mostly young men rather than young women. i'm thinking of one particular fight you were involved in, chris eubank... michael watson. ..against michael watson in 1991, where michael watson received such a pasting that

afterwards, he fell into a coma for a0 days. brain damage. he's never fully recovered. you are putting young men in the ring, knowing that their lives could be lost and you are making a tidy profit out of that. where is the morality in that? well, i mean, i could take instance with you on several... the michael watson fight, of course, michael was winning every round and didn't take any punishment until one punch, which shows you, you know, what the slight difference is between victory and defeat. and secondly, by the way, that show lost a fortune of money, never sold enough tickets and it's probably ended up being the worst day of my life. nothing to do with money, but purely because michael watson was injured. we all have to take responsibility for being involved in that, but it is a balancing act between the right of the individual to pursue the career they want, they want a career. you know, i could quote you thousands of instances

where far more people lose their lives each year mountaineering than even remotely gets close to boxing, for example. and there is no financial gain in mountaineering, you're certainly not changing your life. should we allow that sport? it's wrong to get into these sorts of semantics on different aspects. the bigger picture is, this is the freedom of the individual to pursue the career he or she wants to do. our responsibility, which the authorities failed on with the michael watson show, is to provide as safe an environment as possible, taking into account the risks that inevitably are out there. michael watson was actually, although he was very badly injured, as you know, but that fight changed boxing and made it a far safer sport. you can never make boxing... i've often said, boxing is a prehistoric sport and in today's world you question whether it should be allowed. yeah, but do you, barry, do you question? i do, i do. no, i do question it

all the time, because michael watson had a serious effect on my life, in terms of, to this day, i still recall those terrible moments and it's something that will never leave me, but, at the same time... interesting to hear the words of michael watson, he said, "i loved being a boxer. it changed my life. gave me a reason for being. it changed my family. and, yes, yes, i paid a terrible price." that is interesting, and it's important to know what michael watson thinks. i put to you in my opening introduction the thought about money in sport. do you think there's ever a time, particularly in boxing, where the sums of money can be so extreme that the public are turned off by the amounts of money that are talked about? for example, you and your team manage anthonyjoshua, arguably the world's best heavyweight boxer, for the time being. i say "arguably" because we need to see him fight the other top british heavyweight, tyson fury. but that fight, which is rumoured to be worth about,

well, at least $200 million us, it can't take place because of all sorts of shenanigans within the boxing business, which involve you and rival promoters like frank warren and then international courts of arbitration. do you think the public looks at all of this and the sums of money and gets completely turned off? i don't think the sums of money affects the public�*s attitude at all. in fact, i think exactly the opposite — the bigger the amount of money, the more likelihood there is of increased public interest in the fight because of the level of money — life—changing money — money off the scale. thatjust gives it more media, more exposure and... but, you know, the frustration for me always with boxing was exactly that. that, you know, months and months of work to get that far into pole position... i won't say it's 200 million, more or less, but it's not far away. and that went out the window

for a variety of reasons, where suddenly, my belief is that the other side of the promotional triangle, if you like, perhaps didn't really want the fight at all. if the fight does eventually take place and it is worth, let's say, roughly $200 million us, how much of a cut will you get of that? we've always worked on a different policy, probably why we're the most successful boxing promoters in the world by a country mile is we work as a service to the fighter. in the old days, the promoters owned the show. they paid the fighter the purse, negotiate the purse, and, win or lose, they picked up the rest. and those days don't happen any more. fighters today, i'm so proud to say, are properly represented. they have lawyers, they have accountants, they have managers, they negotiate their fee. in the case of anthonyjoshua, when we worked with anthony,

as we have done since he's won the olympic gold medal, once he became a champion, he owns the show and we take a percentage fee... yeah. ..which his actually quite modest. what is it? well, you don't expect me to reveal to you, and the intricacies of that in detail. what i would just tell you is, being a 73—year old, i always tell the truth — it's a very small fee. a lower figure than most people would think of because we like to keep clients happy and they stay for a long time. we make money out of anthonyjoshua but nowhere near what you might think because we are a service provider and the governor is the boxer, as they always should've been — weren't — but certainly are today. but again... the talent rules. but, barry, it is fascinating, this business of yours. because, again, it's about sport, but it's also about money. are there some

things you regret? i mean, for example, matchroom, your organisation, put on an anthonyjoshua fight in saudi arabia. and the reaction of amnesty international to that was extreme disappointment. the spokesman for amnesty back then, felix jakens, in 2019, said, "this fight is pure sports—washing. we should be challenging the saudi propaganda machine in the way it's using sport to gloss over an abysmal human rights record." did that give you pause for thought? absolutely, absolutely. but, at the end of the day, i go back to my basic philosophy, is that we work for the talents. myjob is to maximise the earnings of our clients. and when we come on to saudi, i don't think i'm capable of getting into the political arguments either way, about should we be working in saudi? should i have snooker

tournaments in china? er, i don't know, should i be in hong kong? but we go where we have to take the sport and we follow other people. this is not a unique — this wasn't a unique occasion. but you don't have to. you've had formula one... but you say, "we have to go." you don't have to take the sport. yeah, but we have to match them, though. we have a fiduciary duty to our client to maximise the return he makes, by dealing in a highly dangerous environment where he has a limited career span. in the same way as formula one will go to saudi, in the same way as ufc to saudi. in the same way as a whole host of golf events in saudi. so let's not pick out boxing or us. we're all doing the same. frankly, whether we people like it or not, we're going where the demand is, where the money is, and we're maximising the return for our clients. iget it... it's all about business, don't kid yourself it's anything else. sport is about money.

everywhere, and the day that we all get on our moral high ground and say, oh, it's a shame about that, is the day we take away life—changing opportunities to the people that dedicate their lives to entertain mere mortals such as us. here's one interesting aspect of your 50—year—long career in professional sports, barry. you have never really put a serious amount of commitment and resource into the world's most popular sport — football. you sort of edged into it with an ownership stake in orient, a very small, if i may say so, london team, but you never seemed to take football... i'm afraid so. ..very seriously as a business opportunity. why not? no, no, no. because it's not a business opportunity, it's a flawed business, in my view. i loved my time at leyton orient, i had 19 years at my childhood football club in charge. i lost a reasonable amount of money, not excessive

by today's standards. but when you look at the football model — football is a sport of passion. in other words, we used to say, when you're a chairman of a football club, you leave your brain in the car park when you park your car. we get involved, we wanted to win and the rules of normal business don't — no longer apply. then you have just recently handed over the reins of matchroom sports to your son, eddie. he's now the chairman, you're the sort of honorary president. eddie says that you've always had a huge sense of rivalry with him, that you are so competitive, so determined that he's always found it, you know, quite complicated, being your son in the business. are you really going to be able to let go and are you slightly fearful that eddie might be even better than you making money out of sports? i've no doubt he's going to be better than me. i mean, the cynics would say he's learned from the feet

of a master and then he took it to his own level. his level is far above my level. in today's digital world, with the changes that are happening within the sports industry, i think it's a young brain's required to understand the machinations of how our sport can be commercialised. is it difficult for me? i have to tell you, yes. after 45 years of being the man that makes all the decisions, to suddenly being the man that is occasionally talked to on business matters, it's difficult, initially — because i am a wholly competitive person. that's why business for me, whilst it does make money and it's a great way of making money, actually, business becomesjust a game, in the same way as you play sport. you play to win, you play to maximise and, most important of all, you play to be the best you can be. eddie follows in my footsteps, and i'm sure he'll take this great company further forward than i could have done.

barry hearn, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much. my pleasure. thank you for the time. hello there. it was a very warm day on sunday. and across northern ireland, it was the warmest day of the year so far before the rain arrived. it was also the warmest day of the year in wales, 27 degrees in the south of the country. but for many parts of the uk on monday, it will be much cooler. the cooler air is coming down from the northwest, arriving in scotland and northern ireland by morning, as the rain eases

off and trickles down into northern england. a very warm start to monday, though, across england and wales. what's left of any rain in northern england and north wales willjust peter out, and this band of cloud just wanders southwards, arriving in east anglia and the southeast in the afternoon. either side of that, some sunshine, increasing cloud, though, coming into northern ireland and scotland with some blustery showers in the northwest. and it will feel cooler for many parts of the country — except towards the southeast of england and east anglia, where we've got high temperatures and humidity before the cloud arrives during the afternoon. now on sunday, it was 28 celsius at wembley. it won't be anywhere near those sort of temperatures at hampden for the scotland game. it's much cooler and breezy, as well. the cooler air is behind that weather front they are, that's out of the way on tuesday. high pressure building in from the azores — this weather system, though, is arriving in from the atlantic, meaning that more of a breeze picking up in scotland and northern ireland, increasing cloud and some rain in the northwest, as well. but england and wales still dry and sunny, whilst not as hot in the southeast for many other

parts of the uk, temperatures may be a little bit higher on tuesday. moving into wednesday, this is where we find our band of cloud. there's not much rain on it by this stage. scotland and northern ireland cooler, largely dry. for england and wales — we've got quite a contrast, really, across the uk — for england and wales, that heat is building, and the humidity, too, especially towards the southeast, where temperatures won't be far away from 30 celsius. then it could all go bang — we've got the threat of some heavy rain, thunderstorms late wednesday through thursday and into friday, mainly across the midlands and eastern parts of england, where we will see that heavy rain overnight, still perhaps around during thursday. not quite as wet further north and west across england and wales, and drier and brighter for scotland and northern ireland. and it will be cooler. it's humid in the southeast, but with that thundery rain, temperatures won't be quite as high as wednesday.

this is bbc news, broadcasting to our viewers here in the uk and around the world. i'm david eades. our top stories: cheering a new government for israel. a coalition of eight parties is voted in as netanyahu is finally out. president biden arrives in brussels for the nato summit, promising to return the us to a leading role. denmark's team doctor confirms that christian eriksen did suffer a cardiac arrest during his team's euro match before being resuscitated. and novak djokovic clinches his 19th grand slam title