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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  July 18, 2021 2:30am-3:01am BST

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at least 170 people are known to have died, most of them in western germany. two days before a widescale lifting of coronavirus restrictions in england, britain's health minister has announced he's tested positive for the virus. sajid javid said he had mild symptoms, having been vaccinated. he also recently said cases of coronavirus could reach 100,000 a day, later in the summer. afghan government sources have expressed optimism after the start of renewed peace negotiations with the taliban in qatar. the long—stalled talks come as the resurgent taliban continue to overrun many afghan districts, with concerns about the country's future following the withdrawal of us and other foreign troops. now on bbc news: dateline london.
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hello and welcome to the programme which brings together bbc specialists with foreign correspondents who write, blog and broadcast to audiences back home from the dateline london. this week — england gets back its freedom from covid restrictions. but how long will it last? in cuba and south africa, thousands have taken to the the streets protesting at their respective plight. two popular revolutions betrayed? with me this week are stephanie bolzen of germany's die welt, michael goldfarb, whose blog aims to be the first rough draught of history, hence its title. and here in the studio with me, the bbc�*s diplomatic correspondent, james landale. welcome, james. welcome to both of you, lovely to see you both again, albeit at a distance for now. now, monday, will be what borisjohnson once liked to call "freedom day" — the one on which all the legal restrictions imposed on people in this pandemic will be lifted. the prime minister,
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borisjohnson, used to say this final stage of unlocking would be irreversible, but now he's not so sure. globally, covid appears to be on the march again. cases are rising in france, germany, the netherlands and spain. in indonesia, japan and vietnam, it seems rampant. stephanie, first, the dutch government under mark rutte, the prime minister, announced three weeks ago or so that restrictions were being lifted and he's now had to reimpose some of them and has even apologised, saying it was a mistake. how worrying a precedent is that for the uk, do you think? i think this is — i am afraid — a very much a precedent for the uk. he had to apologise, or politically it has been very difficult for him and i wonder what is next for borisjohnson in that sense. if you look at the netherlands and, of course, the reason for this is the delta mutation because the delta mutation is far more infectious than the variant we had before. so, in the netherlands and there is a 500% rise in infections and there were a lot of mass gatherings
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so there was a music festival allowed again and of course we are all fed up with it, we understand, some want to go outside, but there were one not too big musical festivals and 500 new infections. i was covering the euros in wembley in the last weeks and thinking of a 65,000 people in wembley and former people around, people celebrating all over the country. we do not know yet how many infections that will have caused, but this is one thing. on monday, opening the floodgates, so to say. i think people are looking to quite a leak infection scenario in the next weeks in the uk. michael, the british are fortunate in they have not only been able to afford and source quite sufficient numbers of vaccine doses, in fact more than enough over the coming few months and every year we have already seen, but they have a population that, on the whole, has impressed vaccination. that is the argument downing street would doubtless use as to why we are different than the netherlands
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and elsewhere, but is there a potential risk it has created a false sense of security in the uk? i think it has created a false sense of security in the government and are certainly amongst conservative backbenchers who would probably describe themselves as libertarian. it really is false. i saw some polling in the last 48 hours at 57% of the british population were thinking about carrying on with precautions anyway. because they are aware that yes, we have a high vaccination rate and that is good, but the younger people, people under 30 have not really been vaccinated and this is in distinction to a lot of our allies. and if you're just going to end up with this delta variation running rampant. i mean, what stephanie was talking about, 65,000 people
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at wembley, you know, you're also talking about tens of thousand in leicester square and downtown manchester. not really observing much social distancing because they're a little too drunk to do so and we'll see, i expect, in 10—14 days, there's going to be an incredible spike. i'm not the only one, sajid javid, the secretary of health, says so as well. but what is really interesting is we are talking about a mere ally and competitor in the netherlands, but a look at israel. israel had pretty much stuffed this thing down, normal life had pretty much resumed in the middle ofjune, in tel aviv, and now they are having, because of the virulence of the variation, they are starting to reimpose. it has been clear since january 2020 that some kind of herd immunity, let thing go viral
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through the population, was a point of view within the cabinet and they are doing it now, but doing it on the backs of children. schoolkids, you know, we are coming to the end of term and many schools have already shutdown. if not officially, it cleared here or a year here, because kids have it and it will continue to flow through them throughout the summer and it would not be the first time in history that borisjohnson had to backtrack or wiffle and waffle as some people call it and say, we have to change again. james, prior to doing the diplomatic bit, you spent some years at westminster, so you have a sense of the political background to this and the kind of thinking. do you think the government is making this move notwithstanding what has happened, because in some ways because at least cannot be blamed for the choices people have to make and they would argue, actually, in the end,
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the pandemic, to some extent, has infantilised people, �*we willjust do what the government tells us?�* and they want people to take ownership of their own health and their own risk factors? yes, they do, but voters - throughout the world tend not to respond very well - if they are forced to take responsibility for theirl actions and they do not necessarily work, they quite - often blame their governments. so they will still get the blame anyway? they still get- the blame later on. the government is acting i because it is under pressure from its own backbenchers - and under pressure economically from businesses. they have got to relax it. they had allowed the narrative to become this extraordinary l phrase, "freedom day". to be fair, this is a word of the prime minister used, it's not something journalists made up. it was a phrase that
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the prime minister was using. the point is that the lesson is a clearly obvious - to everyone around the world this pandemic is something l we are going to have to get- used to and we are going to be rolling with it and we will have to change l because sometimes we're going to have our foot - on the pedal and sometimes we will be to take it off. - and a new variant will come up and a particular vaccination - will not deal with it - as effectively as others. it is about governments. learning to balance those competing pressures of health and economy and politics. - i think at the risk is that by sort of allowing - the impression to get - there that somehow monday clears the decks and it's i a freedom from there on, in makes it politically harder- for the government to reimpose some restrictions on the future if that is what was required. i let me just bring in both your direct experiences in your home countries, stephanie and michael. stephanie first, we obviously heard angela merkel say she did not want brits coming to the uk, she wanted them all to go to quarantine and that didn't work and is not happening now in germany either. what is at the situation
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in germany in terms of domestic side, how are the restrictions being eased? there has been a fair media resistance and protests? and how are they looking now in the run—up to this forthcoming general election? well, as you say, there are still some restrictions in place, but they are very few because the cases have gone down dramatically. they were very, very low for quite a long time, but because of the delta mutation, it is also now dominant in germany, the cases are rising as well. so when angela merkel said she did not want any brits to come to the continent, there are many countries have resisted that because of the tourism. portugal and spain, for example. but any german chancellor also had to understand it did not make much sense because at the delta variant was already
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prevalent in germany, so there wasn't much reason for brits to not come into the country. of course, there is a very delicate situation because at the end of september there is a federal election and the government will be in the same situation like the british government, which way do you choose now? it has a real dilemma and compared with the uk, i think germans were far more feisty, in a way. there were a lot of protests and they did not follow the rules and it's also a federal country so the regions were on their own side. so it is a hard task for her, although she is not standing any more. it be for her successor, maybe armin laschet. michael, in the states, joe biden was talking a lot about the importance of the 4th ofjuly. of course, american independence day. the 4th ofjuly has been and gone and the impression from outside is america is a lot more open than it was
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even a matter of months ago. well, it is open to foreign tourists if you have tests and so on. you can fly in from britain, but you have to fly from written to italy, show recent tests and show you have it. the problem joe biden faces is like everything in america, except for what time of day it is, and even there it is probably a partisan argument, you have large swathes of the south and middle of country where there is such resistance to vaccination and you have at these holidays and then memorial day as well. people get together in large bunches, and then two weeks later, there is a spike in a given state. so he has his work cut out for him. there are some very good graphics that people can find this out there with the new york times and just on google that shows state by state how many people have had double—vaccination or at least a single vaccination, and where there's very low take—up. so, joe biden's work is actually convincing a significant chunk
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of the population to get at least one shot. so, it's a slightly different situation than here in britain where we were all rushing, waiting for our phones to ping, going back to january, and saying, oh, it's your turn. in america, it is entirely different. thank you all very much. we will see. only a few days to go. and it will be interesting to see what the reaction is over a few days, when we are back with dateline, same time next week. in one country and saw peaceful change, the other it was by force of arms. cuba and south africa have something in common. the political organisation that brought the changes still in charge. let's talk about south africa first.
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president zuma, who had been convicted of contempt of court. but there are clearly bigger forces at work here. what is your sense of what is driving these protests? an extraordinary confluence of events, a power strugglej within the ruling anc with all the latent dissatisfaction - of a really bad economic experience, massive - unemployment, huge inequality, poverty, l plus, the ever—presence of covid _ shocking rates of cases - and very low vaccination rates. let's be clear, the reports. coming out of south africa, it is very clear now that there | was an attempt by supporters ofjacob zuma, in various ways, to try and destabilise _ the government. so, some of it was organised? no, no, a lot- of it was organised. it hasn'tjust been shopping - centres that have been attacked and looted, it's also been specific oil refineries, - hospitals, specific economic routes where lorries - have been torched.
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so, in other words, - at best it was an attempt to destabilise cyril- ramaphosa's government and maybe force him to release mr zuma, and at worst. i read people were talking about attempted coups. it spiralled out of control - and an order of violence that has led to extraordinary economicl hit on south africa's economy. huge uncertainty, queues for basic foodstuffs, - vaccination centres have been ripped apart, ambulances- have been targeted. the economy and the battle - against covid had been damaged by what's happened there. in terms of the situation in south africa, stephanie, we think of it as the great success story in a lot of ways of african politics. here was a minority, white, racist regime that defined people purely by the colour of their skin, whether they
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were black, coloured, white, and everything about their lives determined at that point. and was still in existence up until the late 20th century. a relatively peaceful transition. that confidence any constitution that saw one of the mandela team right, it looks as though it has not delivered to enough people the quality of life that is even the most basic quality of life and all those promises. it will come, you just have to be patient, all the rest of it — outpatient seems to have an advance absolutely. ramaphosa was a figure of hope and if you remember the desmond tutu term of rainbow nation, bringing people together, and especially talking about, and james talked about that before, social and equality. one is poverty and the other is inequality.
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it drives into the anger and that has been shown. i have been reading what colleagues are writing from durban. it is shocking the kind of dimension of looting, the violence there. and the fear. and for the government it is now to prove that he has a figure of hope and will maintain the rule of law and he will not give in to the protests and the pressure from a wing from the anc. but as james explains, is it more, is it a hidden coup? how can he get control back? it is a big country. there are a lot of layers of crime and history and as you say, it has been exacerbated by the pandemic which is not in many places of the world, is bad as it in south africa.
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michael, some cynics, the very least the sceptics, will say revelations concern themselves. yes, they usually do. maybe not in america. not yet! 250 yea rs 250 years leads to the bath a table — what was interesting about the situation in cuba and in south africa, the simultaneity of something. covid has obviously sparked, you can see pictures from cuba's hospitals. their revolutionary success was training a generation of doctors who go all over the world, poor countries and in their own country they have excellent health care and to see the condition of the hospitals and covid patients on awful, filthy trolleys in havana hospitals, you begin to understand why this broke out. this is kind of a bigger theme. it is notjust cuba.
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cuba is a political football in america, you have the miami cubans on the right and the american left who want to support the revolution, which is a totally corrupted one party, one family rule. there is nothing to support there. what is interesting to me is when you think back to when south africa threw off apartheid in the early 905, when you think of iraq today, there is a generation of people who are 30 years old and they probably have started families of their own, who have known nothing but post—dictatorship, pre—democratic, grotesquely corrupt societies. we don't talk enough about iraq, and there are demonstrations all the time. you know what kind of repression is needed to keep the lid on in egypt. we see what is happening in south africa, in cuba.
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and i think it is the long—noted demographic bulge, there are so many people, young people who want more, who, through the internet, through intervention by the united states and the g7 powers have been opened up to the idea of democracy, but their daily lives are ground down. by horrendous corruption and covid has given them a spark to come into the streets and say, no, we will not live like this any more. it is sweeping these parts of the world where we have had a great deal of influence since i would say the early 19905. and yet another reason why this whole question of global vaccination matters in our own self interest as well. stephanie, you used to go to cuba relatively regularly. what was your impression of the country then? oh, it was a completely oppressive regime. i used to travel when i was
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a little bit younger to cuba and actually help dissidents, and it felt like... you know many people have been to cuba, it is a beautiful place, and by the way, this is also one of the problems why the protests have started, because the tourists are not coming any more, and tourism is one of the main income sources for cubans, but it was shocking to meet people who have been fighting, just standing up in cuba for the most basic rights, just to express their political opinion and have fair elections and how they were treated and how they were disappeared and how they were killed at times. that was something, a memory that will always stay with me, especially coming from germany. james, finally on this, the relationship between the united states and cuba is a fascinating one. and not least in its peculiarity. joe biden has stuck with the trump sanctions.
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he has not lifted them and the cubans have used as an excuse to say, it is a billy the american�*s fault, if only they lifted the embargo, we could feed you, everything would be right again. is it a diplomatic mistake, do you think, to keep a country like cuba under this embargo and give them this excuse? there are a lot of people - who say mr biden should see if he cannot be adopted - what mr 0bama did, particularly by opening up and relaxing sanctions, allowing - the remittances, all of thati money to go from cubans in america... i am not an expert inl the politics of florida, but i am told that it is a key part of it. l the democratic party are trying to defend themselves - in key races there, they do not want to pick a fight _ with the powerful cuban - republicans at the moment, etc, etc. so there is a little bit of politics in this. - at the moment, joe biden is being very specific. - yesterday, himself at the press conferencel with angela merkel, he referred to cuba as a failed state -
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and said we are not going to move on remittances. i fascinating. and it is one to watch, including the situation in south africa. let me ask each of you to tell us about some other things you think we should be watching that have not had enough attention so far. michael first. there is something going on in america. there is always something going on in america. this is vocal politics, a lot of us here in britain and around the world think joe biden's president and donald trump is making noise down in a maralargo but he is done. democracy is not done. and earlier this week the democrats in the texas state legislature fled, a loaded word, but they flew to washington so there would not be a quorum, so no business could
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be enacted in the texas state legislature. it is because the republican majority wanted to change rules on voting and to sharply curtail the ability of people to vote, particularly african americans and people from poorer communities. a voting day is usually tuesday, but a lot of people have jobs where they actually cannot take the deal. have jobs where they actually cannot take the day off. so there were all kinds of ways that you can vote and any texas legislature is trying to cut them all back. it is voter suppression. the democrats are in the minority, they could not hope to stop this bill, so they simply remove themselves so that there would not be a quorum and no business could be conducted. that is where politics is that in america. joe biden is trying to pass a $3 trillion infrastructure bill, a bailout bill, all of these things, people should really be paying attention to what is happening in the state houses, particularly the ones controlled by the republican party, which seems to be really making a strong effort to turn
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america into a one—party state, even though they are not any majority nationally. stephanie, talking of elections, mentioned the reaction in germany already and we had a terrible flooding this week. of course, and while that is, by the time being, very much in the news everywhere, it is also very political because it is now a challenge for the likely successor in the job of angela merkel. and at the prime minister of the land where they were damages are found, he is competing very much with the green party and the green party now has a kind of advantage because they are saying, well, the flooding is a consequence of climate change and the cdu, angela merkel�*s party, they always say they have to think of the economy. so it is interesting to hear the candidates from the green and the conservatives are showing up at the floods
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and how they are bringing over their message and this might be a decisive message for who wins the election. james? afghanistan. the media in the world is good at things like being pulled - down, but then - we forget about them. the spread of the taliban across afghanistan, - the capturing of border posts, the besieging of provincial- capitals. we are seeing in some of these areas all of the stuff we saw - before, women being forced to not go - to schools, all of that - happening again and yes, there are taking place at doha
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and the afghan president- was in uzbekistan today, reality is that there is a real human - cost of this was a very brief last word. - really brief. 0n afghanistan, the concern is there are several thousand people, contractors, translators have been working primarily for the americans. they cannot be left behind. there is a real body that this is not an active plan to get them out. michael, stephanie and james, thank you very much. thank you very much for your company. dateline london back the same time next week. hello there. saturday saw the warmest weather of the year so far in all four nations of the uk. and in northern ireland, whereas you can see it was beach weather
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in county down, temperatures actually broke the all—time record. the highest temperature since records began in northern ireland, ballywatticock 31.2 degrees. but in england, in wales and in scotland, we saw some pretty hot temperatures. however, the far north of scotland was much, much cooler, just 13 degrees for parts of shetland, whereas you can see we had a lot of cloud. you can pick that out on the satellite picture through saturday afternoon. and that cloud has been pushing a little further south—westwards, so starting off sunday morning, rather cloudy and murky for parts of northern ireland. quite a lot of cloud for scotland, too, with some patchy rain in the far north. the cloud should tend to break up to give some spells of sunshine, although it will stay quite murky for some northern coasts of northern ireland. i think england and wales will see the lion's share of the sunshine, and that's where we'll have the highest temperatures as well. slightly cooler day for scotland and northern ireland. for england and wales, particularly down towards the south, we're looking at highs of 30, possibly 31 degrees in the london area. and the sun very, very strong at the moment, very high uv levels in southern
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england, parts of wales. the lower levels further north only because we'll have more in the way of cloud. so, as we head through sunday evening and into the early hours of monday, we keep clear spells, especially across england and wales. still more cloud at times across scotland and northern ireland, some mist and murk. and it will be another very warm and muggy night. 0vernight lows between 12—17 degrees. so, we start monday with high pressure still in charge, but notice the centre of the high is slipping a little further westwards. that will allow a very gentle north or north—westerly flow of air across the country. and that'll bring just a subtle change in the temperatures, a slightly cooler day for many, a bit more cloud working into north sea coasts as well. some cloud for north west scotland, parts of northern ireland, and you'll see maybe just the odd shower, the odd sharp shower breaking out across southern areas. those temperatures a little down, still quite warm in the south. a little bit cooler further north. as we look further ahead, there is a lot of dry weather
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on offer this week. still some relatively high temperatures. it mayjust start to turn a bit more unsettled by friday.
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hello and welcome to bbc news. rescue workers searching for victims of the devastating floods across western europe have warned that more bodies may be found in submerged cars, cellars and collapsed buildings. at least 170 people are known have died, most of them in western germany. chancellor angela merkel is due to visit affected areas on sunday. with more, here's our berlin correspondent, jenny hill. in ahrweiler, everything, everyone, is covered in a thick, sticky mud.
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there's no power, nowhere to buy food,

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