three afghan cities fall to the taliban in just one day, including strategically important kunduz. the taliban have one of the us to get any further intervention. wildfires continue to on a greek island evia, with very is on standby to take people to safety. thick smoke has obscured the sun and greece has deployed the army. argentine football star lionel messi gave an emotional press conference following confirmation he will be leaving barcelona after 21 years at the club. but alone is facing serious financial problems and says it has to comply with the spanish league rules on

spending. —— barcelona. now on bbc news, the media show with clive myrie. hello. no, don't adjust your set — this is the media show on the bbc. but that theme tune to news at 10 and the famous bongs are part of our popular culture, along with the high angle sweep across london over the rooftops along the thames to meet the face of big ben. all that is part of the iconography of british television news, but who watches the big network bulletins these days? more and more gen z—ers and millennials are increasingly moving online to get their news and information. some older demographics, too, are attracted to more partisan, opinionated platforms. gb news, i'm looking at you. even some politicians

are openly disparaging of what they call the mainstream media. so, how can itv�*s news at 10 and channel 4 news, with a soon—to—be—departing john snow, win audiences back? is it a lost cause in this fractured multimedia age in which we live, or can trust be regained? well, if anyone's got an idea, it'd better be my next guest — deborah turness, the boss of itn, overseeing news on itv, channel 4 and channel five, reaching around 10 million people a day and, on top of all that, having to deal with a financial black hole that would give anyone nightmares. deborah turness, welcome to the media show. it's good to be here. thank you very much for inviting me to be on your show. let's begin with a quickfire round. where do you get your evening news? what do you watch? i watch, of course, the output of my own platforms because that's, of course, a critical part of myjob and i always did anyway. so, i watch itv news,

i watch news at 10 probably a bit more than evening news because i'm often still working for the evening news. i'll catch up on the itv hub for that. i watch channel 4 news, i watch channel 5 news, i also look at bbc news at 10 as well, and the next day, i will check in on the american bulletins as well because it's just a habit i've had over the last decade and it's hard to wean yourself away from it. you've got an impressive cv — the first woman editor of a network tv news show in the uk when you took the reins at itv news. you then moved to america to head up nbc news, and later become president of nbc, one of america's big three networks. what made you want to get into journalism in the first place? you know, when i was about 15, i started volunteering on a local newspaper site that was looking for a reporter in local schools to talk about what was going on in the school. it was the hitching and stevenage gazette, and i started really enjoying it. and then, i went from there

to start doing local music reviews of a local music venue that often attracted some quite good bands, and realised i could get good access behind the scenes and start doing exciting things, even at the age of 16, 17. by the time i was at college, i started making plans to launch a student radio station. i did some articles for the london student newspaper, and itjust grew from there, really. then i was given the opportunity for my year abroad, because i did part of my degree in french, to go and do a postgrad journalism course at bordeaux university. and i spent a year there, and i was completely smitten and i was completely focused on that as my career path. and from there, i was able to do my work experience, not for the french media, but i went to itn and worked for nothing in the paris bureau, as then was. and that was my kind of side door way into itn.

yeah, you helped john snow, i understand, cover a french presidential election. i did, you're very well informed. it was one of those moments, it was a sliding door moment. i was kind of working for nothing, making the tea, etc, and thenjohn snow's producerfell ill and he needed somebody to go to the south of france — we were in paris at the time — to go cover jacques chirac�*s rally. it was the eve of the election, and he was the prime minister and he was standing to be president against francois mitterrand, and hejust released the french hostages from beirut that day. he'd used his power as prime minister to potentially persuade the french electorate to vote for him. these french hostages were national services and they'd been incarcerated in beirut for a very long time. national news bulletins every night started with their faces and the number of days that they have been incarcerated. and i went down to

southern france to meet up with the crew. i was 21 at the time, 22, and managed to get an exclusive interview with jacques chirac in english. john snow made it his lead story, and he pledged to support me and help me get into itn, so he did. ok, so from blocking off corridors and getting exclusive interviews with french leading politicians, you worked your way up to become head of itv news in 200a. how different was the itv newsroom then, do you think, compared to now? that's a really great question. i think what's wonderful about the itv newsroom is that it continues to be a place of absolute commitment to finding out the truth, to digging up stories that others aren't digging up. there's a real sense of family in that newsroom, and i think if you just look

at robert moore, his exclusive on the steps of the capitol, in january this year, he was the onlyjournalist in the world who was actually with those capitol hill rioters as they went into the capitol building, and he told their story from the inside. having invested a great deal of time, energy and journalism, he got to know the movement, where they hung out and how they communicated, in a way even american media had not. i think that story alone tells us that the itv newsroom of today still embodies those values of really agile nimblejournalism. the greatest scoops comes free because they're about nous and knowing where the story is in following your gut instinct, and that's what robert did and that's what manyjournalists continue to do today.

that's a rich, deep heritage whether you are looking at penny marshall's exclusive at bosnian camps and many before her, that's what itv news does. i'm proud to say that robert moore is an old mate of mine, and we've spoken to him here on the media show about that scoop. it was incredible journalism. indeed, you had several scoops yourself. including the 2005 exclusive pictures of the capture of the 7/7 london bombers. i wonder how that story came to you. the best scoops you get are the ones that really give you the element of surprise, and i remember that day so vividly. so, obviously, just after the 7/7 horrendous attacks in london, where so many people lost their lives, that terrible terrorist attack

and everybody was on edge. then came this news that there was a raid happening in these flats in west london. we dispatch our crews and no one knew what was going on, because there was a cordon around the area, but we were hearing all sorts of sounds and stun grenades and military action going on. but nobody knew what was going on. then we got a call into the news desk from somebody who actually lives in the flats and had literally a front view of everything happening as the special forces came in and raided the flats and arrested the terrorists who had plans for follow—up attacks. and this guy has recorded everything. and i wanted footage,

i needed the footage, he wanted money for it, and it had value. so we got into negotiation, and then abc, the american broadcasters, came in and just blew my offer to this guy for his footage out of the water. they put so much money on the table. i basically cold called the daily mail. an acquaintance said he couldn't afford this, how can we do this together? let's mount a joint bid. you can have newspaper exclusive, i'll have tv. i think the tapes were thrown out of the back of the flat into a garden. my producer how to climb over walls to get the tapes and then we had to transfer them because it was the guy's home camera.

james mates, one of our amazing correspondents, turned around in time for the evening news this unbelievable scoop. no—one had a scrap of picture. it had dominated every media platform and around the world, all day and bang, evening news, headlines exclusive, there it is. you talked about robert moore saying the best scoops are free. you paid for this one. how much? they're not all free, i won't tell you how much i paid. more than i can afford. six figures? i'm not going to go there! i can't even remember. six figures if the daily mail were involved. you'd be surprise how low my budgets were. i won't talk about the money here. it was definitely worth it. when you ran itv news, and there is a school of thought that that's

the period — i'm not laying all of this at your door, absolutely not — but that's the period mainstream media lost touch with ordinary people. an estrangement that failed to predict the brexit vote ultimately, or borisjohnson�*s 80—seat majority in 2019. it was probably a long time coming, up to that decade, but do you think that's fair? do you think that's when the rubber did hit the road and many of the members of the public felt they wanted their news elsewhere? i think that itv news as a brand that has always been in touch with its audience and has been recognised for that connectivity. i think it comes up through its rich regional roots through the itv regional operation with really

considerable grassroots journalism across the country. i think that does feed up and into the kind of news that itv news is. while i do recognise that, overall, the media lost touch with some members of the audience, i think that impacted itv news a little less than others, if i'm honest. let's talk about the states. you leapt across the pond to america in 2013 on nbc news. much bigger market, bigger budgets, bigger headaches. for those tuning in who don't know their way around the american media landscape, where would you position nbc? nbc news is impartial. politically, it doesn't have a point of view. it's interesting because i know you've spoken about the fairness doctrine in the us, and i'm with you in terms of when ronald reagan did

away with the fairness doctrine to make way for right—wing talk radio. and this was the rule that meant that all broadcasters, in order to have a licence, they had to give all points of view on a particular issue. doing away with that changed the landscape and paved the way for fox news and msnbc and other news entities with an approach and a point of view. even though there isn't the kind of regulation we have in this country, nbc news invests very heavily to be impartial, to see all sides and does it because that's a point of pride. that's how they've always done it. and won't be leant upon and without fear or favour. but that's tricky in the age of donald trump. your time at nbc coincided

with the rise of the donald, as it were. that must have been a nightmare to comprehensively report on this man whom the washington post reckons lied or made misleading statements more than 30,000 times during his presidency. it was really hard. during the campaign, as he was becoming a force to be reckoned with, the challenge was not only how to not spend your entire programme fact—checking what he said, but an even greater danger i felt was how not to allow your programme to be consumed by the latest tweets. because there was news to carry, and important issues to cover, and the circus which is high—octane in any normal american election cycle, was off the charts. sorry to interrupt, on reflection, do you think you should have called him out earlier? that coincided with your time,

when he laid the foundation for this alternate reality of truth, should you and others in america have called him out earlier? look, i think his rhetoric became more complex and, if you like, darker, as he went on. did we call him out enough? you weren't the only ones. it's hard to be thejudge. but he was good for business as well. i think that was something... people tuned in. there are some famous quotes around others, not me, and i think it drove ratings up, for sure, on cable channels. not necessarily on the platforms i was driving, so i was never in a position where i felt i was trying to exploit the donald trump phenomenon for ratings gain, and we always tried to be balanced. but i will say i think

where we didn't get it right — and we talked about it at length after the election — was not only to not see him coming, but to have listened to the electorate and to respect them. and i think that problem is, clive, that that problem still prevails, because... if robert moore was the only correspondent to be with the rioters at the capitol that day, it's because nobody else was listening, nobody else was talking to those people, was visiting them in the towns where they live and where they come from, to understand, which is why that story was missed. and i think it's the exact same set of circumstances and so there's a sort of lack of learning, if you like, several years on. a point well put. we're going to shuttle back over to the uk now. you're the chief exec of itn, you're ultimately the boss of itv news, channel 4 news, channel five news. how much day to dayjournalism

do you get involved with? do you sign off controversial stories? i have to say, i'm almost not involved at all with journalism. i'm up here on the fifth floor, i've got thejeremy vine team behind me but other than that i'm running the business. i check in — there's a morning editorial briefing at 10:00—10:15 where each of the news services talks about what they've got on that day, any legal issues, any safety issues, any comms issues. so you just let them get on with it, by and large? yes, i really do. and you're saying that in a way as if you don't actually believe me! you ask the editors, go and do your research, phone them all up and they will say we can't believe how hands—off she is editorially, we thought she was going to come in and be interventionist, and actually, she's not. 0k, how much sharing of resources takes place? so, itn...i mean, nobody — nobody in the world does what itn does, to run three incredibly distinctive

news services, and yet, to do it with an economy of scale, at the back end, that makes it cost—effective so that you can really focus enough of your budget on covering the news, going the places you need to go, investing in investigations. so yes, there's the building, there's the massive engineering technical infrastructure of, you know, master control, studios and studio supports, edit vehicles, satellite feeds, travel — all that stuff that happens that is completely non—competitive that needs to be there. the pipes and the support mechanisms, the it and all of that. but the newsrooms themselves are completely independent, under separate editors, separate producers, separate news presenters, the teams in the field are separate. of course, when you're in the field, you'll

help each other out, you'll support each other as colleagues. but there is an emphasis on keeping the final product as distinct as possible? 1000%. 0k. absolutely. we're brothers and sisters but we're frenemies, you know? we talk about a lot of what we're doing in front of each other but we hold back obviously the critical information about exclusives because it's competitive. so — and for many, many years, we've actually managed to walk that tightrope and it works, it really, really works. yeah, i mean, how much of an overlap is there then with the audiences? so, forgive me on this, a crude summary might suggest that itv is for traditional viewers, perhaps older audiences. channel 4 is for younger, left—leaning audiences, perhaps more social media savvy. channel 5 viewers are those people who are really waiting for the next pop history documentary to start. well, that's quite stereotyping

of the audiences, i would say. not too bad, not too bad. itv news is massive reach, i think second only to bbc nationally in terms of how many consumers it reaches, both in tv and digital. serving up a broad agenda. channel 4 news, yes, it goes more in depth, it has more investigations, it focuses on issues around socialjustice and on foreign affairs, so if that's your cup of tea, you're going to go there. and five news has really carved out a niche for very much, you know, almost ahead of its time — a non—metropolitan view, serving a tea—time audience who are watching the news initially at 5:30, very interested in the news seen through the prism of ordinary people. currently they're running a really big series continually on long covid and how that's impacting people out there, doing more on that

than anybody else. so each has its own target audience, but i'm sure there are some people that watch all three. yeah, but what's distinctive about channel 4 news, for instance, certainly as far as the government is concerned, is the sense that it's a little bit left wing. why do you think they think that? look i think, channel 4 news, it must be noted, has never once been found against by 0fcom in impartiality ruling. that's an important point to make. it's a really important point to make. you know, it covers news with impartiality. is it robust? yes. is it uncompromising? yes. do they ask sometimes the toughest questions, yes, because that's what their brand is all about. and they have an hour to do it, which as you know, in a world of finite news durations, it's very hard when you have a half—hour to tell the world's story, you're always pressed for time, but when you have an hour, you just have that

extra beat to go deeper, to ask the second and third follow—up question. but i think you're talking about privatisation, i think, and the move currently is about economics. it's about the longer—term protection of channel 4 as the government sees it. and we... are you confident that you can keep that independence with all the talk of privatisation? look, we have to. we are...you know, impartial ourselves on the model for channel 4, but what we're not impartial about is channel 4 news. it is the most critical part of channel 4's remit, it is the most recognised and awarded news programme in britain. it goes out there and does more world changing impactful journalism than any other news

programme there is. it reaches more young people on social platforms than any other news programme. it's incredibly important to the plurality of this country. it's a very important piece of our media landscape. and if channel 4 is to be privatised, then we will fight for it to be protected. i have no reason to believe the government won't protect it. in fact, i do believe this government understands and recognises the importance of channel 4 news. is it sometimes a thorn in their side? yes, it is. but i do think they recognise it and i think ourjob is to make sure the journalism speaks for itself. that we continue to break exclusives and change the world, and i think we even look to see if we can enhance the remit in a future arrangement. i think there are models out there that point to how you can protect news. i was at comcast when comcast acquired sky, and comcast have

signed up to a ten—year guarantee of sky news's budget, with rpi, and an independent editorial board which protects sky's news editorial independence. and i think there are models there, if we're serious about it, so we're going to be obviously putting some of that into our submission for dcms consultation. so, how are you able, for instance, to deal with what the telegraph reported last month to be itn's £16a.6 million pension deficit? how do you deal with that? well, it's no secret that itn has a pension deficit, and in fact, the telegraph correspondent asked me about that and sort of just said, does it trouble me that ultimately, you know, profit that we will generate will mostly go into sort of filling the pension deficit.

and for me, i think it's a noble cause. people are motivated for different reasons. i sort of said to him, you know, do people at the guardian feel less motivated because it's a trust? so we must work very hard to make sure that the pension deficit is, you know, the pension is kept alive. finally, you've worked in mainstream tv news your whole career. and it is where most people get their news from, the television and programmes like news at ten and the bbc news at ten, and channel 4 news. how long do you think that can remain the case, that most people get their news from television and not migrate online or elsewhere? i think the death of television news has been oft predicted, but it hasn't happened yet. and i think what needs to happen is that great brands, whether it's the itv news brand or individual programme brands, like a channel 4 news or a news

and ten, will migrate with the audience, they will go where the audience goes, and they must do that, and that's one of the things that i hopefully am here to make happen. as we're seeing this accelerated migration. so, i wouldn't like to predict the final demise of the appointment to view broadcast television news bulletin, and the best of them will migrate in different formats — but with those brands and their brand values in tact, onto new platforms with their audiences. 0k, debra turness, thank you very much indeed for your time today. thank you very much, thank you, clive. thanks to nigel dix as well, today's sound engineer. the media show will be back same time next week. thanks for listening. bye—bye. hello.

dork clouds are banned. 0vernight rain, across southern areas, but practised that bite and blustery. more of you will stay dry to me nae with sunshine and brightening up in scotland and northern ireland after a cloudy and damp start. the worst storms in central and northern scotland, severe thunderstorms and risk of flooding. more parts of the country seeing temperatures of 20. 0vernight on monday storms will continue for a time, but most will fade away, with showers continuing across northern parts. it would be a cold night by any means, temperatures around 10—14. temperatures around 1044. tuesday, showers and thunderstorms are still there across northern scotland, most places will be dry on tuesday, only one or two isolated showers, some good sunny spells and temperatures continue to climb a little day by day.

this is bbc news. the top stories. three more afghan cities fall to the taliban as they dismiss international calls for a ceasefire. farewell to wall of the most challenging summer 0lympics of them all, tokyo closes the games, next stop, paris. the orange glow of wildfires burning out of control on the greek island, forcing holiday—makers and residents to flee. just a few miles from here, there are bright blue skies but here, the area is full of smoke and ash and it is making it harder for people to breathe. iran records its highest official death rate from covid—19 as it is hit by a fifth wave of the virus.

lionel messi bids an emotional