this is bbc news, this is a special hour—long programme about the conflict in afghanistan and the future of the country. the taliban takes another provincial capital and closes in on campbell. there are reports from the peace talks that the taliban have been offered a power—sharing deal. —— closes in on campbell. what is the end game? i've been talking exclusively to a taliban commander about the kind of law they would impose. —— closes in on kabul. if someone was to steal or commit adultery, what should happen to them? the commit adultery, what should happen to them? , , , . to them? the punishment is cutting off the hand — to them? the punishment is cutting off the hand and _ to them? the punishment is cutting off the hand and foot, _ to them? the punishment is cutting off the hand and foot, if— to them? the punishment is cutting off the hand and foot, if someone i off the hand and foot, if someone commits adultery the punishment is stoning. commits adultery the punishment is stoninu. ~ ., ., , commits adultery the punishment is stoninu. ., ., , g,

stoning. what does the future hold? i will be talking _ stoning. what does the future hold? i will be talking to _ stoning. what does the future hold? i will be talking to the _ stoning. what does the future hold? i will be talking to the afghan - i will be talking to the afghan ambassador to the us and will also get the view from pakistan. many blame a taliban's rapid advance on america's troop withdrawal. i'll be getting reaction from the man who served as us national security adviser under president trump. welcome to viewers in the uk and around the world to this bbc news special on afghanistan, and endless war. in the last hour reports of an offer of a power—sharing dealfrom the afghan government to the taliban in return foran the afghan government to the taliban in return for an end to fighting. if true, this would be a remarkable breakthrough made against a backdrop of growing caliban control of territory across afghanistan. ——

caliban control. thousands leave their homes to get away. —— taliban control. the militants have taken over the police headquarters in lashkar gar. the taliban advance has been incredibly fast, last month it only controlled these areas are shown in red but now following the withdrawal of western troops the red wave has spread to all of these areas. the afghan government is reportedly attempting to unite a host of fractured militias against a common enemy. it's also been holding peace talks with the taliban for a year in doha. untiltoday�*s talks with the taliban for a year in doha. until today's rumours of a deal no progress had been made. i will be asking for the reaction to this news from the afghan ambassador to the united states in a moment. first, i have interviewed two high—profile figures in the taliban

chain of command. i asked them what they want from the afghan government and how they would rule the country if they could return to power. afghanistan, 2021 — the taliban are back, taking city after city from government forces. the withdrawal of foreign troops has left a power vacuum the taliban are rushing to fill. if they take power, many people here fear a return to their brutal regime of the �*90s, characterised by public executions, stonings and girls being banned from school. despite the historic peace deal that was signed between the us and the taliban in february 2020, and the ongoing peace talks taking place in doha, qatar, between the afghan government and the taliban, no progress has been made. i travelled to doha to meet with suhail shahin, a member of the taliban peace negotiation team. if you were to return to kabul, how would you govern?

there was in the past some mistakes that we have learned from, because at that time you were new to the government to stop education of women and girls. that is not our goal. of course, education is their right and it is much needed. if they have education that they have a right to work. according to my knowledge, and i am not a religious scholar, it is very difficult to find proof to stone our women. it is not impossible but it is very, very difficult. while suhail shahin continues to talk about peace, it's clearly not a view shared by taliban commanders closing in on afghanistan's cities. back in kabul, taliban commander maulana from

helmand agreed to meet me. he was among 5000 taliban prisoners released by the government last year in the hope of furthering peace talks with the taliban. he is now leading 300 taliban fighters in his province. do you want the taliban regime to come back into power, or do you think there should be a power—sharing deal with the current government, like the discussions that are being had in doha? translation: we would be happy to have a joint government under. the umbrella of islamic sharia. a sharia—based system in afghanistan, like the system the taliban used to have. if we talk about law and order and justice, if someone were to steal or commit adultery, what should happen to them? translation: all this is clearly stated in the koran. _

if someone steals, there is a punishment, for example, for some thefts, the punishment is cutting off the hand and foot. and if someone commits adultery, then they should be stoned. what about girls going to school? can they go to school and if so up until what age? translation: iii until what age? translation: , ., , ., until what age? translation: , ., , translation: if she wants to she can but the school — translation: if she wants to she can but the school should _ translation: if she wants to she can but the school should be _ translation: if she wants to she can but the school should be girls - translation: if she wants to she can but the school should be girls only. i but the school should be girls only. also, the teachers should be women, she should be able to study up to the age of 12 or 13. and if there isn't a political resolution to this conflict, are you prepared to take kabul by force? translation: i'm trying to defeat the government and they're trying | to make me disappear. in the end, we will be compelled to kill one another.

increasingly, it appears there is a disconnect between what is being said by the political office in doha and what the taliban commanders and foot soldiers are doing on the ground in afghanistan. but the vice president of afghanistan remains defiant. this group in doha. they are a deceptive facade of a very dark reality called the taliban. so in your view, have they changed? no, not only they have not changed, they have become savvier in deceiving. are you willing to pick up arms again if you have two? i’m are you willing to pick up arms again if you have two? i'm already armed against _ again if you have two? i'm already armed against them. _ again if you have two? i'm already armed against them. -- _ again if you have two? i'm already armed against them. -- if- again if you have two? i'm already armed against them. -- if you - again if you have two? i'm already. armed against them. -- if you have armed against them. —— if you have to? armed against them. -- if you have to? ., �* ., ., , armed against them. -- if you have to? .,�* ., ._ ., armed against them. -- if you have to? ., ., ., , armed against them. -- if you have to? ., to? you've already got the army. but reall , if to? you've already got the army. but really. if you — to? you've already got the army. but really. if you had _ to? you've already got the army. but really, if you had to _ to? you've already got the army. but really, if you had to go _ really, if you had to go head—to—head? really, if you had to go head-to-head?- really, if you had to go head-to-head? , , , , ., head-to-head? yes, yes. there is no wa i can head-to-head? yes, yes. there is no way i can surrender _ head-to-head? yes, yes. there is no way i can surrender to _ head-to-head? yes, yes. there is no way i can surrender to the _ head-to-head? yes, yes. there is no way i can surrender to the taliban - way i can surrender to the taliban now. no way. with the government adamant to defy

a new era of sharia law, and the taliban making significant gains, afghans now seem to be caught up in a savage war that has taken on a life of its own. yalda hakim, bbc news, kabul. that is afg hanistan�*s that is afghanistan's vice president saying he would never surrender to the taliban but would the government to consider a power—sharing arrangement and have they offered one? i'mjoined by the arrangement and have they offered one? i'm joined by the afghan had mastered to the united states. thanks forjoining us. i interviewed the vice president and he said to me i'd rather sooner pick up arms and take on the taliban, you know, done battle with them, rather than surrender to them. now we are hearing these rumours there is a potential offer of a power—sharing agreement. potential offer of a power-sharing agreement-— potential offer of a power-sharing aareement. ., ~ ., ., agreement. thank you for having me on the programme. _ agreement. thank you for having me on the programme. there _ agreement. thank you for having me on the programme. there is - agreement. thank you for having me on the programme. there is a - agreement. thank you for having me

on the programme. there is a clear. on the programme. there is a clear distinction. that is the surrender. in terms of surrender the people have been there when taliban regime was in power. we have seen what it meant for women, young men, education, human rights, it was the continuation of atrocities. that wasn't even too long but we're still seeing the same evidence in certain provinces that they are taking control of. they are killing a woman because she was dressed inappropriately. they are killing a comedian, a historian, journalists, so we know that surrender means to surrender to atrocities and tyranny. in terms of political settlement, we have said from the first day that the government and the people of afghanistan are ready for a political settlement. 50. afghanistan are ready for a political settlement. so, "no deal" has been struck _ political settlement. so, "no deal" has been struck in _ political settlement. so, "no deal" has been struck in doha _ political settlement. so, "no deal" has been struck in doha at - political settlement. so, "no deal" has been struck in doha at the - has been struck in doha at the moment?— has been struck in doha at the moment? ., �* ,

has been struck in doha at the moment? . �* , , moment? true. that's true. there is not one yet- — moment? true. that's true. there is not one yet- we _ moment? true. that's true. there is not one yet. we aren't _ moment? true. that's true. there is not one yet. we aren't giving - moment? true. that's true. there is not one yet. we aren't giving up - not one yet. we aren't giving up hope. we are not giving up on hope, prosperity, and stability. you hope. we are not giving up on hope, prosperity, and stability.— prosperity, and stability. you have virtually no — prosperity, and stability. you have virtually no leather _ prosperity, and stability. you have virtually no leather ridge. - prosperity, and stability. you have virtually no leather ridge. also - virtually no leather ridge. also correct. virtually no leather ridge. also correct- we — virtually no leather ridge. also correct. we don't. _ virtually no leather ridge. also correct. we don't. -- - virtually no leather ridge. also correct. we don't. -- no - virtually no leather ridge. i"r correct. we don't. —— no leverage. we are going to the table with nothing on our hands. who we are going to the table with nothing on our hands.- we are going to the table with nothing on our hands. who do you blame for that? _ nothing on our hands. who do you blame for that? we _ nothing on our hands. who do you blame for that? we need - nothing on our hands. who do you blame for that? we need to - nothing on our hands. who do you blame for that? we need to bring | nothing on our hands. who do you i blame for that? we need to bring the rocess. blame for that? we need to bring the process- the — blame for that? we need to bring the process- the way _ blame for that? we need to bring the process. the way it _ blame for that? we need to bring the process. the way it was _ blame for that? we need to bring the process. the way it was carried - process. the way it was carried away. the whole good intention it was behind, having a peace deal. 0pening was behind, having a peace deal. opening a negotiation, a window for negotiation, but leverage is the us government had, the leverage the afghanistan government had, which was the release of 5000 revellers. we did release them. —— which was the release of 5000 prisoners. they are still under us sanction. they are still under us sanction. they are still under us sanction. they are still having strict restriction on when to travel and for what

purpose and that needs to be tighter now. is purpose and that needs to be tighter now. , ., ,., , ., now. is there a power-sharing agreement — now. is there a power-sharing agreement on _ now. is there a power-sharing agreement on the _ now. is there a power-sharing agreement on the table - now. is there a power-sharing agreement on the table at - now. is there a power-sharing agreement on the table at the i agreement on the table at the moment? we agreement on the table at the moment? ~ ., agreement on the table at the moment?— agreement on the table at the moment? ~ ., , , ., ,, moment? we need to speak with the team that are — moment? we need to speak with the team that are negotiating _ moment? we need to speak with the team that are negotiating right - moment? we need to speak with the team that are negotiating right now. team that are negotiating right now in doha. i spoke to them yesterday. some were optimistic, some still weren't optimistic. but we must be optimistic about the future of afghanistan.— optimistic about the future of afuhanistan. ., ., ,, ., afghanistan. you talk about the executions. _ afghanistan. you talk about the executions, the _ afghanistan. you talk about the executions, the stonings, - afghanistan. you talk about the executions, the stonings, the i executions, the stonings, the killing ofjournalists, activists. you said we've seen the kind of regime from the 90s. you have lived through it yourself. could you see them coming back to kabul and there being a power—sharing agreement? if they agree to the terms we proposed, and when we say we that's the people in the government of afghanistan and our allies and supporters. we have put a certain terms and forward. that's the most —— the most important thing for us is that there needs to be equal constitutional

rights for men and women and minorities in afghanistan. that must be accepted. there has to be no constitutional barriers for women in the future. these are specific terms. we also said there must be a representative of democracy in afghanistan. the people of afghanistan. the people of afghanistan must have the political freedom to choose who they wish to have as the leader, president, or whatever structure we define. we've seen from the first day that wasn't their intention. to change the way they think from the first day, however was negotiating, they said the taliban haven't changed at all. now you are in a desperate situation, do you think kabul is going to fall?— situation, do you think kabul is auoin to fall? �* , ., going to fall? look, i've been asked these questions _ going to fall? look, i've been asked these questions since _ going to fall? look, i've been asked these questions since yesterday - going to fall? look, i've been asked l these questions since yesterday many times, and my answer is i don't want to believe kabul is falling. if i

believe that it's the collapse of the government and i don't have any choice beyond survival. [30 the government and i don't have any choice beyond survival.— choice beyond survival. do you feel abandoned? _ choice beyond survival. do you feel abandoned? by _ choice beyond survival. do you feel abandoned? by the _ choice beyond survival. do you feel abandoned? by the united - choice beyond survival. do you feel abandoned? by the united states? i abandoned? by the united states? look... i have really good conversations with my counterparts here. i had a really good meeting with the dod here. there is a genuine commitment to help to support us but at the same time they are also struggling with the high—level political endorsement within their administration. sometimes we feel troubled with that but we are continuing to have very good conversations. there is a call thatis good conversations. there is a call that is scheduled... the good conversations. there is a call that is scheduled. . ._ that is scheduled... the president has said we _ that is scheduled... the president has said we are _ that is scheduled... the president has said we are doing _ that is scheduled... the president has said we are doing everything i has said we are doing everything possible to support the afghan people but at the end of the day this is their fight. people but at the end of the day this is theirfight. is people but at the end of the day this is their fight. is this an internal afghan matter? i this is their fight. is this an internal afghan matter? i wish it was. i internal afghan matter? i wish it was- i really _ internal afghan matter? i wish it was. i really wish _ internal afghan matter? i wish it was. i really wish it _ internal afghan matter? i wish it was. i really wish it was. - internal afghan matter? i wish it was. i really wish it was. i - internal afghan matter? i wish it was. i really wish it was. i wish l was. i really wish it was. i wish the taliban were local insurgents, that they were unhappy with the way

the government was governing the country, and theyjust wanted to be part of the government and take some part of the government and take some part of the government and take some part of control in the political structure. that solution, i wish that had arrived ten years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, but it hasn't. we know with strong evidence on the ground, and with the un sanctions, the reporting and monitoring team, they say the taliban have linkages to international terrorist groups, not only al-qaeda. it is a proxy war. it is a waragainst only al-qaeda. it is a proxy war. it is a war against international terrorist groups. it isn't a civil war, it isn't a local war, i wish it was. war, it isn't a localwar, iwish it was. ., ., ., ., . _ was. you also have an incredibly weak government. _ was. you also have an incredibly weak government. you - was. you also have an incredibly weak government. you have - was. you also have an incredibly i weak government. you have troops that are deserting their posts. they are retreating. we see carloads of soldiers leaving areas. what sort of message does that send to the

average afghan person who is looking to the afghan government for leadership? it’s to the afghan government for leadership?— to the afghan government for leadership? it's a very difficult time. leadership? it's a very difficult time- the _ leadership? it's a very difficult time. the presence _ leadership? it's a very difficult time. the presence of- leadership? it's a very difficult time. the presence of the - leadership? it's a very difficult l time. the presence of the most important strong countries of the world, their military presence was in afghanistan. it doesn't only come to one concern to blame that it is weak leadership, orthat to one concern to blame that it is weak leadership, or that it was the defence forces, that they don't have the courage or confidence. they do. look, our history is still in the living memories of afghans. it wasn't that long ago the collapse of the soviet regime. what happened last time? there were moments when promises were given. people do have that memory and they still think there might be an agreement between

may be the us government and the taliban. there is an agreement they might not be aware of. the president. _ might not be aware of. the president, for _ might not be aware of. the president, for example, is dismissing an sacking the chief of the army in the middle of this war. is this the time to be making this kind of reshuffling? l is this the time to be making this kind of reshuffling?— kind of reshuffling? i think so because we — kind of reshuffling? i think so because we do _ kind of reshuffling? i think so because we do need - kind of reshuffling? i think so because we do need to - kind of reshuffling? i think so because we do need to make| kind of reshuffling? i think so . because we do need to make the kind of reshuffling? i think so - because we do need to make the right changes. if you have seen, it was highly welcomed by security forces, this change. it doesn't mean the previous army chief didn't perform well, but we needed somebody with fresh blood and fresh energy to arrive and do the job. hf fresh blood and fresh energy to arrive and do the job.— arrive and do the 'ob. if the taliban arrive and do the 'ob. if the rauban do _ arrive and do the job. if the taliban do overrun - arrive and do the job. if the taliban do overrun the - arrive and do the job. if the - taliban do overrun the country, do you think you could ever return? look, i've been trying to answer this question. for me there is no choice of taliban over running the country. the alternative is worse.

i'm fighting. my country is fighting. 0ur i'm fighting. my country is fighting. our people are defending our rights and our living and life. so, no, idon't our rights and our living and life. so, no, i don't think i would be able to do that.— so, no, i don't think i would be able to do that. ., ,, , . able to do that. thank you very much for “oininr able to do that. thank you very much forjoining us— able to do that. thank you very much forjoining us here _ able to do that. thank you very much forjoining us here on _ able to do that. thank you very much forjoining us here on the _ forjoining us here on the programme. forjoining us here on the programme-— i'm joined now by the head of the tv news in kabul. we are seeing the situation unfold in afghanistan. do you have any hope? l situation unfold in afghanistan. do you have any hope?— you have any hope? i think it's a delicate situation. _ you have any hope? i think it's a delicate situation. kabul- you have any hope? i think it's a delicate situation. kabul can - you have any hope? i think it's a delicate situation. kabul can be | delicate situation. kabul can be protected, i think. delicate situation. kabul can be protected, ithink. i delicate situation. kabul can be protected, i think. i think some major cities can be protected. if we have some out solutions on the us side, on the afghan side, and also when it comes to countries in the region. these are very difficult

choices for all sides to make. the country has never been tested or challenged like today. this morning when i asked one of the big parks in kabul i could see thousands of homeless and displaced afghans who have come to kabul from homeless and displaced afghans who have come to kabulfrom neighbouring provinces. that's very difficult to see that afghans once again will lose so much.— see that afghans once again will lose so much. ~ ., ., , ., ., ., lose so much. what do you want from the government? _ lose so much. what do you want from the government? many _ lose so much. what do you want from the government? many of _ lose so much. what do you want from the government? many of the - lose so much. what do you want from the government? many of the people| the government? many of the people who are displaced say they've had nowhere to go and the government hasn't been helping them. l nowhere to go and the government hasn't been helping them.- hasn't been helping them. i think the government _ hasn't been helping them. i think the government is _ hasn't been helping them. i think the government is paying - hasn't been helping them. i think the government is paying a - hasn't been helping them. i think the government is paying a lump| hasn't been helping them. i think - the government is paying a lump sum price four years of mismanagement, four years of bad politics, for years of narrow—minded politics. ——

a lump sum for years of mismanagement, for years of bad politics. that is where we see a lot of soldiers not fighting. today we saw that a provincial governor who was very recently appointed, he came to kabul, they arrested him here. let's not forget that this was the same governor that a few months ago, the kabul government wanted to go to war against one of the provinces in the north. some of these bad decisions i think contributed to where we are today. also compounded by the departure and the way the us forces announced their departure. that has also destroyed morale. the two combined has left afghanistan where it is today. you two combined has left afghanistan where it is today.— where it is today. you represent everything _ where it is today. you represent everything the _ where it is today. you represent everything the taliban _ where it is today. you represent everything the taliban doesn't l where it is today. you represent. everything the taliban doesn't want in afghanistan. your news channel,

the way you operate, you've got female reporters on the ground, you've got newscasters who are women. you have been part of the gains of the last 20 years. the people who work for you, you yourself believe in the freedoms and opportunities that have come with the us led invasion of afghanistan. do you think your organisation will exist if the taliban overrun kabul? i think what we represent is what the majority of the afghan people want. it is such a young country, young population, a lot of afghans have managed to go to school. access to education has been unprecedented. io to education has been unprecedented. 10 million kids at school. historically speaking, the past 20 years has been a unique opportunity for afghanistan. a lot of people have embraced that. now i think we

are entering into this very unique military situation that is notjust putting risk or addressing risk to organisation like ours, but to so many afghans. and that's why i think it's very important for all the stakeholders to rethink. i don't think this is the end of the road, i think this is the end of the road, i think the next few weeks are very critical. the us has to revisit some of its decisions before it is too late. . ~' , ., , of its decisions before it is too late. ., ,, , . of its decisions before it is too late. . ~ , . ., late. thank you very much for “oininr late. thank you very much for joining us _ late. thank you very much for joining us on _ late. thank you very much for joining us on the _ late. thank you very much for joining us on the programme. late. thank you very much for - joining us on the programme. i'm joined now by general hr mcmaster who served as a security adviser under then president trump from 2017 to 2018. thank you forjoining us on the programme. we havejust heard from two afghan voices. you spent time in the country. i would like your reaction to what you have just heard. your reaction to what you have 'ust heard. ~ ., ., , ,

your reaction to what you have 'ust heard. . ., ., , , ., heard. what we are seeing is a disaster unfolding _ heard. what we are seeing is a disaster unfolding which - heard. what we are seeing is a disaster unfolding which was . disaster unfolding which was completely predictable. predictable because of our self defeat. i think what you are reporting today, but across your career, has exposed three elements of this. first, that the taliban is going to share power. they aren't going to do that. the second is they will impose a more benign form of sharia law. of course that's not the case. the third is there is this bold line between the taliban and otherjihadist terrorist organisations. what we are seeing now is the results of that, right? you have heard the mantra over the years, you know, there is no military solution to afghanistan. well, i mean, the taliban has one in mind. what we are seeing is the result of the abandonment of our sustained effort to support a security for the afghan people there and the reversal of the tremendous gains made since 2001. what breaks

my heart here is, you know, how after so many years and so much investment in blood and effort, people were willing to walk away because of this false narrative about the war. you know? nothing has been accomplished there, we've wasted trillions of dollars, and all of that was really false. afghanistan hadn't transformed into denmark. but afghanistan doesn't have to be denmark, just needs to be afghanistan. the taliban are exposing themselves again. president biden sa s exposing themselves again. president itiden says the — exposing themselves again. president biden says the afghans _ exposing themselves again. president biden says the afghans need - exposing themselves again. president biden says the afghans need to - exposing themselves again. president biden says the afghans need to fight i biden says the afghans need to fight this war themselves. that this is the problem of the afghans. is that fair? ., �* , ., the problem of the afghans. is that fair? ., �*, ., ., fair? no, it's not fair because these are _ fair? no, it's not fair because these are the _ fair? no, it's not fair because these are the enemies - fair? no, it's not fair because these are the enemies of- fair? no, it's not fair because these are the enemies of all. these are the enemies of all civilisation. you know? of all humanity that are fighting. the reason we went to afghanistan was

because nearly 3000 innocent people were murdered on september the 11th 2001. we have to recognise that this isn't an afghanistan problem. this isn't an afghanistan problem. this is a humanity problem. 0n isn't an afghanistan problem. this is a humanity problem. on a modern day frontier between barbarism and civilisation. what it required was a sustained effort. what is crazy about this is before the capitulated agreement of 2019 we had about 8500 troops there. if we were ecuador that might be a stretch, but we are not, we are the united states of america, and we actually had allied troops there are of equal number. this was a sustained and sustainable commitment. but the reporting about the war i think was underreported. i think it was skewed. i think there

was a strange dynamic of almost, you know, how victims identify with their abusers. there was some sort of crazy almost affinity for these brutal murder of a stellar band. now we are waking up to the reality. the question is, are we going to do anything about it? —— brutal murdering caliban. imilli anything about it? -- brutal murdering caliban.- anything about it? -- brutal murdering caliban. will be have a return to this? _ murdering caliban. will be have a return to this? absolutely. -- - return to this? absolutely. -- brutal murdering taliban. - return to this? absolutely. -- brutal murdering taliban. we | return to this? absolutely. -- - brutal murdering taliban. we know that wars do not end when one party disengages, right? paradoxically it was vice president biden in 2011 who called president 0bama on the phone from baghdad, iraq. he said, thank you for allowing me to end this god damn war. well, guess what? the war didn't end when the us disengaged.

al-qaeda in iraq didn't look around and say, hey, the americans are gone, let'sjust stop! so this and say, hey, the americans are gone, let's just stop! so this self referential mantra of ending endless wars doesn't recognise thatjihadist terrorists are waging against us. that demands us to be engaged for our own security for the future of all humanity. our own security for the future of all humanity-— our own security for the future of all humani . ~ ., , , ., all humanity. where does this leave america's standing _ all humanity. where does this leave america's standing in _ all humanity. where does this leave america's standing in the _ all humanity. where does this leave america's standing in the world? i america's standing in the world? america's standing in the world? america talks about great power competition. if vladimir putin sees this, doesn't this just embolden america's adversaries? then of course it does. but what our adversaries should recognise is that america, when it is threatened directly, will respond. but i think we're already seeing increasing aggression by russia, by china, by

iran, and i think it is worth noting that at the height of popular opposition to the war in 67 to 68, north korea said, america is weak and vulnerable. he launched a major insurgency against south korea. 0ver insurgency against south korea. over 300 attacks happened in that year. 15 americans were killed and 65 were wounded. many more americans, by the way, than were killed and wounded in recent years in afghanistan. it breaks my heart because what is occurring with the afghan people. where are the people now who came up with the doctrine for the right to protect? are they crying crocodile tears in the white house? where are the people, the humanitarians, right? the women's rights activists. why aren't they calling for the use

of military force against the taliban? what is crazy about this is you heard this was a futile endeavour, right? it you heard this was a futile endeavour, right?- you heard this was a futile endeavour, right? you heard this was a futile endeavour, riuht? . , . , , endeavour, right? it was an endless war. we endeavour, right? it was an endless war- we were _ endeavour, right? it was an endless war. we were fighting _ endeavour, right? it was an endless war. we were fighting with - endeavour, right? it was an endless war. we were fighting with a - endeavour, right? it was an endless war. we were fighting with a small. war. we were fighting with a small number of troops for the afghans to take the brunt of the fight to prevent what we are seeing right now. , �* _ , prevent what we are seeing right now. , �* , now. president biden says bad things ha en now. president biden says bad things happen everywhere- _ now. president biden says bad things happen everywhere. we _ now. president biden says bad things happen everywhere. we cannot - now. president biden says bad things happen everywhere. we cannot be i happen everywhere. we cannot be everywhere. brute happen everywhere. we cannot be everywhere-— everywhere. we can be in afghanistan. _ everywhere. we can be in afghanistan. we - everywhere. we can be in afghanistan. we were - everywhere. we can be in i afghanistan. we were there. everywhere. we can be in - afghanistan. we were there. with a very small commitment and an effective commitment. actually it was our disengagement, and as you alluded to already, it was actually, you know, this capitulation agreement where we made concession after concession, did not insist on after concession, did not insist on a ceasefire, forced the afghan government to release a 5000 of some of the most heinous people on earth, one of whom you interviewed at the outset of this programme, and so on

our way out we weakened the afghan government and bolstered the taliban. i could not believe that the us secretary of state wrote a letter to president ashraf ghani and said you need to do more for peace in the midst of the beginning of this massive assassination campaign did he write a letter? of course not. but i would say how many americans, how many citizens of the uk even though who that is, right? we are narcissistic in our approach to the war because we define the most consequential competitions abroad based on what we would prefer to do to —— we would prefer to do. you lead man in afghanistan and lost men in afghanistan. what do you say

to all of those american mothers, british mothers, mothers of people who send their sons there who would say now, what was all this for? they were engaged in a noble endeavour and what you see today is what they were preventing from happening, what they had revered —— reversed. people lived through hell of the taliban rule. you know it yourself, the civil war from 1992 to 1996. so i think what our soldiers were engaged in was a noble endeavour in the interest of all humanity, and they should be proud of that. but i think what's wrong with western society these days is that we have cheapened and coarsened the war ethos. some citizens think soldiers want pity. soldiers don't

want to be pitied, they have