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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  August 28, 2021 5:30pm-6:01pm BST

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those winds will drag in a lot of cloud around on monday. there may not be too much in the way of sunshine. the best of the sunshine will be towards the western side of the uk where we're more sheltered from what's likely to be a stronger wind in many areas on monday, and that wind off the north sea will make it feel cold around some of those north sea coasts, the best temperatures out towards the west, again 20, possibly pushing 21. tuesday looks fairly similar. if there is any sunshine first thing, it may fill up with cloud a bit more, a lot of cloud on the scene again on tuesday and again a fairly brisk wind coming in too. those temperatures are not going to change very much. near some eastern parts of the uk, temperatures only 16 or 17. with high pressure in charge throughout the week, it's going to be dry, quite breezy, some sunshine and again, the best of the sunshine in the west.
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hello, this is bbc news with martine croxall. the headlines... the final uk flight to evacuate civilians from afghanistan has left kabul. the ministry of defence says further flights will bring home uk diplomatic staff and military personnel. the us military says one of its drones has taken out an islamic state group planner, following thursday's attack which killed as many as 170 people at kabul airport. concerns about rising covid infection rates as large crowds are expected to flock to beaches and festivals over the bank holiday weekend. members of the scottish greens have backed a deal that will the see the party enter government in the uk the first time. two world records for the british cycling couple — husband and wife, lora and neil fachie — who are amongst seven gb paralympians to win gold today. now on bbc news, hardtalk.
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welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. months of conflict in northern ethiopia have cost thousands of lives and brought hunger and fear to millions. late last year, prime minister abiy ahmed's government seemed confident of crushing tigrayan rebel forces. that confidence was misplaced — the war has spread. both the addis government and the rebels stand accused of horrifying war crimes. my guest is ethiopia's attorney—general, gedion timothewos. is his government leading the country to disaster?
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gedion timothewos in addis ababa, welcome to hardtalk. thanks for having me. it's a pleasure to have you, mr attorney—general. when we last spoke to each other, nearly nine months ago, you seemed very confident that your government was about to crush the forces of the tigray people's liberation front. are you now prepared to say that your government strategy has gone disastrously wrong? mr sackur, as i stated back then, we're in a position to retake mekele, and we're able to finalise the initial phase of the operation within a matter of three weeks. we took over mekele, we established an interim administration, we invested in rehabilitating tigray. and remember, it was a conflict
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that was forced upon us. it was not a conflict that we got into by our own volition and willingness, so that's how we see the situation. well, you haven't answered my question, because since then — and of course your forces did take mekele — since then things have gone very wrong. your forces left mekele injune, and since then the tplf — the tigrayan rebel forces — have retaken much of tigray from your national army, but they've also moved into the neighbouring regions of amhara and afar. they hold much more territory now, so what's gone wrong? when we're holding mekele and when our forces were in tigray, there were constant issues that were being raised about humanitarian access, the humanitarian situation. we wanted to improve the humanitarian situation, and we were also concerned
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by the fact that the tplf was sending wave after wave of civilians against our troops. there was an extensive use of child soldiers by the tplf. so, under these circumstances, to mitigate and minimise the humanitarian cost and suffering, we did the responsible thing — we declared a unilateral ceasefire and we withdraw our troops from mekele. unfortunately, the tplf continued with its aggression and belligerence and escalated the conflict. it expanded it into afar and amhara regional state, committing gross atrocities against civilians. well, we'll get to the allegations of gross atrocities in a minute, but you tell me that you are concerned about the humanitarian situation. it's very hard for me to understand then why, to this very day, you and your government are maintaining a siege,
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a blockade of tigray, which involves cutting off electricity, telecommunications, banking and financial services? something which the un and other aid agencies say is materially affecting hundreds of thousands — millions of people. when we declared the humanitarian unilateral ceasefire, we established a humanitarian corridor through afar. it was the tplf, the tplf that expanded the conflict and turned this corridor into a conflict zone. but why don't you... why don't you end the blockade, mr attorney—general? as i said, we had facilitated humanitarian access and corridor through afar. now, as far as electricity and other essential services are concerned, the utility companies, the corporations that provide these services, they had several of the personnel killed in tigray while they were trying to repair basic infrastructure.
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they have been subject to attacks, so under the existing insecurity, the continued aggression of the tplf, it could have been difficult for these corporations to send their personnel, their employees, in tigray. so, had the tplf reciprocated the unilateral ceasefire, then it would have been a different circumstance but... as far as the tigrayans are concerned — and i did speak to a tigrayan spokesman very recently — you will know that they believe that there is no way they can end their armed struggle until you end the blockade, and there's no sign of it ending. there are also worrying signs that your government seized the international aid agencies, the ngos that are trying to deliver help to hundreds of thousands of people who are facing famine in tigray. you appear to see them as part of the problem. one government spokesman,
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redwan hussein, recently referred to aid groups as "playing a destructive role" — what's that supposed to mean? that's only a reference to a very small minority of organisations. the overwhelming majority of aid organisations are providing assistance to those in need. we're cooperating with them, we facilitate their work, so we don't have a problem with that. and as i have noted earlier, when we declared the unilateral ceasefire, our objective, our intent was for humanitarian aid to reach the people in tigray without any hindrance. that's why we established the corridors through afar. we allowed humanitarian flights to take off from addis and fly to mekele, but the continued aggression from the side of the tplf has created a situation on the ground that is making things more and more complicated.
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i think people watching and listening to this conversation are going to find it hard to understand that while hundreds of thousands of people in the north of your country are facing the imminent threat of famine, hundreds of thousands have been displaced — are currently living in camps — you in your government have suspended the operations of various aid organisations, including medecins sans frontieres�* holland branch, and also the norwegian refugee council. why on earth have you done that? uh, you have to understand that all organisations that provide assistance and aid that operate in our territory have to respect our rules and regulations. as i have mentioned earlier, the overwhelming majority of humanitarian organisations have no problem with this and they continue to provide assistance and aid. these organisations are trying
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to keep people alive and you're stopping them operating. uh, that's not the case. there has been administrative measures but these measures are to ensure compliance with appropriate regulations. as i have stated earlier, several organisations, numbering in the hundreds, are operating all over the country, providing assistance for those in need. we don't have a problem with them, we're working with them. we have a very constructive relationship. and we're also in consultation, in dialogue with these entities you mentioned, and we believe that they will be able to rectify the violations very soon, and we'll be able to reinstate their licenses. you are ethiopia's attorney—general. have you read the report from the university of ghent in belgium that went forensically
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through lists of people — named individuals who have been killed — civilians who have been killed in the fighting and it tigray? killed in the fighting in tigray? they have come up with 2,562 civilians who died in 232 incidents, which the university of ghent researchers are calling massacres in tigray, over the last several months. have you read that report and what have you done about it? we take all such allegations, all such reports seriously, and we look into it. we conduct investigations, we are committed to ensuring accountability. the government of ethiopia does not condone any such violations and, as we have tried to communicate to the public at large previously, we have conducted several investigations. there are additional investigations that are under way —
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both through the civilian and military tracks — and whenever we identify perpetrators, to the extent we find these kinds of reports credible, we take measures to ensure accountability. amnesty international have released a report this month, again using more than 60 testimonies from eyewitnesses, which they say provides overwhelming evidence of systematic sexual abuse, rape and other terrible forms of sexual abuse carried out by ethiopian army forces in tigray since the beginning of this conflict. when you talk aboutjustice and accountability, what have you done about that? we are conducting and we have conducted investigations. we have several of our own soldiers responsible. many have been court—martialed. there are ongoing investigations. these are things we take seriously. we don't condone this
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type of behaviour, tolerate these kind of human rights violations. but i should point out that some of these reports you have mentioned, there is a tendency to sensationalise, there is a tendency to draw very sweeping conclusions that are not supported by the extent and scope of the investigation. some of them have also adapted methodologies that we think are rather flawed. be that as it may, as i have said earlier, both through a civilian track and the military track — we have conducted investigations. i find it hard to believe your government is taking these allegations seriously when one of your own spokespeople described the amnesty international report as nothing more than "sensationalised attacks and smears." if you were serious about these terrible allegations,
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which involve accusations of victims being held in captivity for days and being systematically raped — some being handed overfor sexual slavery, some being raped in front of their children. if you took these accusations seriously, you would have dozens and dozens of members of your armed forces behind bars right now. as i've said, these kinds of matters are matters we take seriously. yes, there could be sensationalised reports and there are sensationalised reports drawing very exaggerated and unsubstantiated conclusions, but we take the victims seriously. we have conducted investigations and more than dozens of our own soldiers have been sentenced to serious, serious penalties — some including life in prison. how many? more than 30. so our actions speaks for itself.
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and in addition to this, i want to point out that the ethiopian armed forces are — the ethiopean national defence force — is a disciplined fighting force. it is a force that has a long track record of serving within the un framework, going back as far as the korean war and in several parts of the continent. its reputation for discipline, for integrity, is there for all to see. i'm sorry, mr attorney—general, but if you are telling me more than 30 soldiers have been convicted of the most serious sexual crimes in the course of this conflict over the last few months, there is clearly something much deeper going on. how many senior commanders of the ethiopian military have been fired and held to account for what their men are doing? because this isn'tjust a one—off, this is systematic. if you read the amnesty international report,
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that is quite plain. we don't agree with their conclusion that this was systematic. they have conducted their report, their investigation remotely. they have relied on what they call "community workers". we are very sceptical of who those community workers might be. we conduct our investigations on the ground. and as far as accountability is concerned, our commitment, our seriousness has also been demonstrated by the fact that we have allowed the un high commission for human rights to conduct a joint investigation with the ethiopian human rights commission. only a government that is transparent, that is committed to the highest standards and values would permit this kind of scrutiny.
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you are right to point to the joint investigation and the un human rights commissioner is involved and she says she takes the amnesty international report very seriously. but there is another profound problem here. you are the attorney general of ethiopia and some of these allegations of the most extreme sexual violence come as allegations directed to eritrean troops operating at the invitation of your government on your territory. you have no ability to deliver justice and accountability for the crimes committed by eritrean troops, do you? regardless of who the perpetrators might be, our responsibility and our position is that we conduct investigations, we establish the facts. if there are individuals who are beyond ourjurisdiction, there are established protocols to seek international legal cooperation in collaboration with authorities that have jurisdiction in their countries.
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so it is a process that is under way and we work with neighbouring countries on these issues so i think it is too early to jump to conclusions and i say that based on our actions and our conduct so far, our commitment to accountability is very clear. and i must also point out that we are rather disappointed and a bit dismayed by the fact that several atrocities that are being perpetrated by the terrorists against people, including children, is not being denounced, not being looked into by international humanitarian and human rights organisations. if you had watched my interview with the spokesman for the tplf, you would know that i went into great detail. i would like to acknowledge that and i do recognise that.
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thank you. it's important we challenge both sides in this conflict. let's get back to your side, let's get back to the language being used by your own prime minister who just last month used these words to describe the tigray people's liberation front. he called them a cancer, he described them as weeds, a disease and said that "these weeds will be removed from our country." as attorney general in a climate where there are accusations of ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity, what do you think of the language being used by your own prime minister? the statement issued by the office of the prime minister was referring to a terrorist organisation. there have been circumstances in the past in which war leaders have used similar language to refer to terrorist organisations such
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as isis so, you know, given the pain and agony that the tplf is causing to the people of ethiopia, notjust the recent massacres and atrocities it has committed but what has transpired over the past three decades, that is a sentiment that most ethiopians share. the problem is that what we see happening in the country is that, for example, in addis ababa it is plain over the last few months that hundreds of ethnic tigray people have been rounded up and detained by your security forces. we see in reaction, the american, samantha powell saying that dehumanising rhetoric can historically accompany atrocities. do you understand why
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the international community the tplf happens to be an organisation organised along ethnic lines, so supporters, most of its operatives or finances happen to be from one ethnic group. not all of them but most of them. so sometimes some outsiders may not understand this context, this situation and the challenge we face. so i understand where they are coming from but they also
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have to understand the environment within which we are operating. what do you think are the prospects for the continued unity of your country? the leader of the tplf said not long ago that trust has broken completely and they don't want to, referring to you in the government, if they don't want us why should we stay? there is a real risk of your country falling apart, isn't there? it is not falling apart. you must remember ethiopia is a resilient state, a resilient nation. we have overcome all sorts of challenge in our long history when we come united and i believe there is a determination and resolve to neutralise the threat we face from the tplf, we can overcome this challenge.
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it does not seem to be willing to tolerate an ethiopian that it cannot dominate, that it cannot... cannot rule and its objective... these are not objectives acceptable to the people of ethiopia, there really does not seem to be a unified position now among all of the people of all of ethiopian. i am just mindful of what abiy ahmed said when he won a nobel peace prize in 2019. he said that before we can harvest peace dividends, we must plant seeds of love, forgiveness and reconciliation in the hearts and minds of our citizens. very far from love, forgiveness and reconciliation. your government right now seems intent on crushing the tigray
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rebels, eliminating the so—called cancer — and that does not sound like love, reconciliation and forgiveness. we have practised forgiveness, what we have is reconciliation. when the administration came to power, the transgressions of the tplf were forgiven and they were given an opportunity to be part of the body politic of the ethiopian state, despite the gross and systematic human rights violations and misrule. there are repeated efforts on the part of this government to find amicable solution for the differences we had. it is the tplf who triggered the conflict. the tplf who dragged us into this conflict. you must remember that. this is not a conflict that we chose, it is a conflict that has been imposed upon us when the tplf attacked the northern command.
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but there is no military solution, is there? in the end this will have to be resolved through dialogue and compromise and, right now, your government is not talking the language of dialogue and compromise. when we declared a unilateral ceasefire, we are giving peace a chance. i'm sorry, the prime ministerjust told the nation that all able—bodied civilians should join the fight to crush the rebels. it is not a ceasefire. when we declared a ceasefire, the tplf expanded the conflict, went on the offensive into the regions and displaced hundreds of thousands, it killed hundreds of civilian and under these circumstances what we expected to do? the tplf are a terrorist organisation and they made the ceasefire untenable and under these circumstances
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we have a right and responsibility to defend our population and that is what we are doing. gedion timothewos, we have to end there, but i thank you very much forjoining me from addis ababa. hello there. as far as bank holiday weekends go, this is one of the better ones and it was a good start to the weekend for england's cricketers. for anybody hoping to see a full day's play at headingley, such as yorkshire lad here, it was a bit disappointing. we've had a day of sunshine at headingley, had a day of sunshine in central scotland where we have seen the highest temperatures today.
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you can see from the fields it's very dry. it's been a very dry summer for scotland. it has not been the case elsewhere across the uk and in europe, there has been a lot of heavy showers today. one or two light showers clipped the south—east early on, those are pretty much gone now. with high pressure in charge, it should be dry overnight. clear skies for many areas to start with but more cloud will come down from the north into scotland, northern ireland and the far north of england, so these areas won't be as chilly as they were last night. further south with clear skies, temperatures in rural areas could easily get down to six or seven. heading into sunday and much cloudier day than today, across scotland, northern ireland and northern england. it could be quite grey across much of the scotland, north—east england, one or two spots of drizzle. elsewhere, it should tend to brighten up a little. sunnier skies further south. some patchy fairweather cloud developing through the day and still quite breezy in east anglia and the south—east of england and our top temperature probably be 20—21. cooler than that for eastern scotland and the north—east of england under the cloud. we've got high pressure
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in charge this weekend, it's still there into next week. the centre of the highs to the north—west of the uk and it means the winds around it are feeding in off the north sea. those winds will drag in a lot of cloud around on monday. there may not be too much in the way of sunshine. the best of the sunshine will be towards the western side of the uk where we are more sheltered from what's likely to be a stronger wind in many areas on monday, and that wind off the north sea will make it feel cold around some of those north sea coasts, the best temperatures out towards the west, again 20, possibly pushing 21. tuesday looks fairly similar. if there is any sunshine first thing, it may fill up with cloud a bit more — a lot of cloud on the scene again on tuesday and again a fairly brisk wind coming in too. those temperatures are not going to change very much. near some eastern parts of the uk, temperatures only 16 or 17. with high pressure in charge throughout the week, it's going to be dry, quite breezy, some sunshine and again, the best
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of the sunshine in the west.
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this is bbc news. these are the latest headlines in the uk and around the world. the final uk flight to evacuate civilians from afghanistan has left kabul. the ministry of defence says further flights will bring home uk diplomatic staff and military personnel. the us military says one of its drones has taken out an islamic state group planner following thursday's attack, which killed as many as 170 people at kabul airport. concerns about rising covid infection rates as large crowds are expected to flock to beaches and festivals over the bank holiday weekend. members of the scottish greens have backed a deal that could see its leaders in government for the first time. two world records for the british cycling couple, husband and wife lora and neil fachie, who are amongst seven gb paralympians to win gold today.
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and in half an hour, a round—up of the day's sport.

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