this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main story at the top of the hour as newsday continue straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the taliban now have the afghanistan they fought forfor two decades, a country rid of american and nato troops, theirs to bend to their will. or maybe it's not as simple as that. can the taliban afford to forego international aid and economic assistance? do they need to build

alliances both inside and outside the country? well, my guest is omar zakhilwal, former afghan finance minister and recent interlocutor with the taliban. does the future belong to the pragmatists or the zealots in afghanistan? omar zakhilwal in kabul, welcome to hardtalk. pleasure. you made a remarkable decision just a couple of weeks ago as thousands and thousands of afghans were trying to flee the country as the taliban fighters swept into kabul.

you decided to head back from safety in the united states. why did you do that? well, my country faced a sudden, unexpected, deep uncertainty. there were fears, as we saw at kabul airport, people even hanging to the planes to just escape. and ijust couldn't bear to see that, i needed to return. first of all, be with our people, calm them down, but secondly, wanted to engage with the taliban. they needed to assure the people that they should not be feared, the future should not look as bleak as people think, and that the taliban, no doubt, had taken over kabul

militarily, but if they were to govern, they will have to be accommodating, inclusive, and also give people the assurances that their new government, or the new government in which taliban definitely will play a significant part, will be a government that will have the space for rights and responsibilities and opportunities for the general public. so you've been... yes. you've been watching them for two weeks from your home in kabul. i dare say that's where you're talking to me from. now that you've had two weeks of observation and talking as best you can to senior figures in the taliban, are you convinced you made the right decision and that you should not have fear of the taliban? well, i have no fear. i didn't have any fear

from the...from the get go. i returned to kabul via land because the airports were... i couldn't. .. i couldn't fly in. the commercial flights were cancelled. my engagement with both the sort of military—level, soldier—level taliban and also with leaders, i've been met with respect, with respect to the future of this country and what needs to happen. and the good news is that at a minimum, they listened to it with respect and they're engaging. so, absolutely not. as a result of my return, of course, i do meet hundreds of ordinary people, including women, on a daily basis and my presence, in addition to that of former president hamid karzai and dr abdullah abdullah — they were here when kabul fell to them — i have been a bit reassuring. well, let's talk about the practicalities. as you speak to me, are there taliban guards outside your

home, your compound? i keep my own guards, and the taliban are ok with that. i don't have taliban guards. you see, that's interesting because hamid karzai, whom you just referenced, the former president of afghanistan, he also seemed confident that he would be talking to senior taliban, that he would be part of a political process. then it turned out, a few days later, the taliban guards moved into his house, and, as i understand it, he moved to another house that of abdullah abdullah, for safety. so you can't really be sure, can you? actually, that was not accurate. his family remained in the same compound from the very start and he moved into dr abdullah�*s compound so that they could closely co—ordinate, and it's been about four days or three days that the former president karzai has moved back to his own residence and his former guards are his current guards as well. so what you read in the paper was not entirely accurate.

see, ijust wonder whether you're being a little bit naive. when you gave an interview to tolonews tv just a few days ago and you said, "i've met key taliban leaders, i see "that they are in pursuit of peace. "there's a big difference between the current taliban "and those who governed 20 years ago. "their attitude has changed entirely. "now they are open—minded." are you really sure about that? well, it's a close translation of what you did, but not exactly what you translated, but it's not the past one, two weeks that i've been engaging with taliban, i've been interacting with the taliban for the past three years. i was instrumental in organising some intra—afghan meetings with the taliban, whether it will be in moscow and also in doha informally. i was not, of course, part of the formal structure. i know the taliban leadership in doha.

i know them personally, i've had many private and bigger meetings with them. they understand the afghanistan of today is not the afghanistan of the 1990s. even in the �*90s, when it was a much different afghanistan, if their system of governance was sustainable, it would still have been around. so they understand the need for... but the question is whether you can take them at their word. there is no doubt that starting with that very well covered press conference after they took kabul, when they made the promises that they would be an amnesty forall, including people who had served the previous government, they said that the rights of women would be respected under islamic law. we heard all of that. but in recent days, we've seen very credible reports of executions of directors of security from at least

a couple of provinces. we've heard from zarifa ghafari, a female mayor, the first in the whole of afghanistan, who had to flee the country because she knew that the taliban were searching for her. we've seen one of the country's folk musicians, a well—known musician, murdered by the taliban. we've seen a comedian in the south of the country, also well known, murdered by the taliban. i'm sure they didn't tell you they were going to do all of this. so what makes you believe that you can take them at their word? well, first of all, isolated incidences, as bad as they are, and they must stop and we've spoken out against them, there's also a bit of exaggeration, i would say. sorry, what's exaggerated about what i've just told you? well, some of the killings that we hear finally turns out not to be accurate. there are also personal animosities, so anybody killed in any part of the country is not necessarily a taliban killing. and secondly, even yesterday, i had former generals

or recently former generals, former governors, who'd fought the taliban, particularly in the south, and yet yesterday i hosted them in my house and i asked them if they were ok, if they were bothered. and they have not been. by and large, by and large, they've kept their word. and we hope that this continues, not only continues, but there is an improvement upon it, and that the word at the leadership level is respected down at the soldier level. sometimes it's not and we speak out against it. but by and large, i mean, you would agree with me that suddenly, the capital of the country, with seven million people, falls to them, and yet, by and large, it's quiet and it's peaceful. do you think... do you think if you were a woman or indeed if you were the father of daughters, you would feel quite so sanguine about the taliban ruling your country today? no, women...women...

are fearful. it's absolutely understandable. but we see women out there today. i've met many women. they came to my offices, they came alone and they went back alone. and i do ask them if they have been bothered on the road and they say they don't. three days, four days ago, i tweeted about a woman who was driving a car, in fact, not too far where there is a taliban vehicle. so that's encouraging. i go out, walk on the streets and i... initially, of course, i see fewer and fewer, now i see more and more women, and i encourage them to actually come out and make that the normal, so the taliban are also used to seeing women out there, going to their offices, going to their schools. and i know there are some restrictions imposed, and we do encourage the taliban to remove them. but, like i said, it's the engagement that i think...

well, you keep telling me... ..you keep telling me that you encourage the taliban to do this and that. i just wonder if there's a danger, maybe you would acknowledge it, that you might be being used as a useful stooge by the taliban. you and hamid karzai and abdullah abdullah all say, "we must engage. "we are involved in a national dialogue. "we hope to achieve a new political settlement "in which there is a sharing of power." well, you tell me, after two weeks, do you get any indication from the taliban at all that they are willing to share power? first of all, what is the alternative that we have? do we have to engage in war again, another cycle of violence, or should we give a chance to talking to them? and particularly, when you hear words of assurances that we need to hold them to, let's say hold them

to their words so that they're delivered upon. so it's not a stooge thing. it's a responsible thing which we are doing. and secondly...secondly, it's only been two weeks that kabul just as unexpectedly and suddenly fell and it was a shock to us. it's been a pleasant shock to the taliban as well. they did not expect that. they were not ready for that. we are ready to give them days so that they discuss things amongst themselves. we just saw a statement by the taliban spokesperson that the past three days, there was their leadership meeting in kandahar and they have discussed things. we hope that there has been some positive outcome out of that, that there is agreement on accommodating other political sides in an inclusive set—up, because there would be...that would be the only sustainable set—up that could, er, that could bring peace and stability to this country. i've been extremely vocal

that the attack of the taliban government off the back of the 1990s absolutely will not succeed in this country. and they...and many of those leaders agree, and that's encouraging. well, one of the key factors here may be the state of the afghan economy. in your experience, in your view as a former finance minister of longstanding in your country, how close is afghanistan's economy to collapse — complete collapse right now? i would say very close. we are in an economic crisis. we have an economy that's dependent on foreign aid. we have an economy that's also dependent on trade, in businesses. the businesses are depressed. foreign aid has stopped to, um, trickle in. and the taliban very well know that it depends on international recognition of the next government. and that is, again, a factor of hope for us,

that the taliban know the importance of it. the taliban have... with respect, mr zakhilwal, what we see right now is the united states has cut off all of afghanistan's dollar reserves. that's billions and billions of us dollars. we see the imf has also, for the moment, suspended all economic assistance to afghanistan. we see an economy that, until two weeks ago, was 40% reliant on international economic aid and assistance. that's all gone. you'd think if the taliban were serious about trying to get some of those economic lifelines restored, they might be doing more to reach out in terms of guaranteeing rights, guaranteeing political pluralism. we're not seeing it. yeah. and that's what we are trying to get them to understand, the severity of the economy of the country, the enormity of the responsibility on their shoulders,

and they must... time should be of the essence, enough urgency to them and that a political settlement, absolutely something that the economy of the future of this country will depend upon. and we hope they realise the enormity of the responsibility that they have on their shoulders now, and expedite the political talks that will hopefully lead to a political agreement in the political transition in this country. what's your feeling about what the donor nations, the western nations and others should do right now? of course, in the united states, the uk and many other countries, there's a focus on the military withdrawal and there's a degree of consternation about what happened in recent weeks. but should they be seeking,

in your view, right now, to be finding ways to send new economic help into afghanistan despite the fact that the taliban is in control and they clearly didn't want the taliban to be in control? yeah, well, first of all, humanitarian assistance is the responsibility of the international community. i have asked the officials who've contacted me from these western countries not to tie humanitarian assistance to political development because there are people out there in an extremely dire situation, millions of them, and they need immediate assistance. there are international mechanisms in place. the un in particular will have to be active on the ground in that assistance needed to be delivered on urgent basis,

not tied to any political developments, but at the same time engage with the taliban here for a political settlement. the taliban do understand the need for international recognition, for international support. of course, they say an independent afghanistan, and if they are dealing with an independent afghanistan, and that, every afghan would support, not only the taliban, but right now, what must be done immediately is, again, attention to humanitarian assistance in this country. right. when the us national security adviser, jake sullivan, was asked about what the us was prepared to do in everything from economic assistance to diplomatic recognition to working with the taliban, he said quite simply — quote — "it'll come down to the taliban actually following through." he meant on pledges, for example, on rights of women. before we can talk about things like embassies, recognition and stuff like that,

do you think that the us and others have got it right, that they are waiting to see before offering any new material assistance? first of all, we are disappointed at the us, to be very honest. if they had gotten it right, we would not be in this situation. there will have been the takeover in kabul, whether it be not based on a military takeover, but on a political transition in which the us could certainly play a more sort of effective role, which they didn't. now of any country, western country, it's been the us that has been in close interaction with the taliban. they have active discussions in doha where the taliban representative up there and the us representative are up there. we hope that those discussions continue instead of sort of demanding things in media, that they're... i hope there is back to discussions that would lead to the taliban responding constructively to those needs, and that the international community would remain engaged

in finding a political solution to this country and convincing taliban to agree to an inclusive afghan government, which they've indicated that they will. but again, the international community, particularly the us active participation in role would be required so that we get there sooner than later. mr zakhilwal, one reason the americans and indeed others feel so burned by the afghan experience is because they poured billions, let us say even a trillion and more dollars into afghanistan over the last 20 years, and they've seen a vast

proportion of that money siphoned off into corruption, fraud, embezzlement, misuse and abuse. you, as a seniorfigure in the government over many years, and many others, stand accused of misusing aid and assistance over many years. why would the americans and others believe that is going to change now? first of all, speaking for myself, accusation is one thing and making myself available to be ready to answer any accountability questions before and after. i've always been there. i've been an opposition figure for the past three years of the previous government, and i've personally asked the government that if they have any evidence against me, i would want to make myself an example and do that. but there's no doubt that the funds have been misused. they have been stolen. massive corruption has

happened, particularly a standing accusation against the recent former president that on the day that he was fleeing the country, even that day, he did not spare for stealing funds from... well, with respect, with respect, it's easy for you to point a finger at ashraf ghani because you were politically not so close to him, but you are very politically close to hamid karzai, and he and members of his family and close associates also stand accused of corruption — on a vast scale. you know it. you were finance minister when billions of dollars were taken away from aid and assistance, and misused. so, frankly, you are intimately involved with all of this, even if the allegations against you personally were not proven. i've responded to you on your show previously. i've been extremely sort of open and candid and forthcoming on that.

i would be an extremely happy person if one day... and i've been investigated, i should tell you, the former government thoroughly investigated me. not only investigated me here, investigated me...as well and i'm happy that i've come clean through all this. but i hope that the day comes. but i guess the point really is whether you acknowledge now, sitting here under taliban rule, that the political elite in afghanistan over the past two decades let the people of your country down, and that's one reason why the taliban are back in power. and so did the international community. the way assistance, international assistance in this country was delivered was corrupting. and that is something that even when i was the minister of finance, i was speaking up against it, and i was not able to even have a small dent in the way it was delivered. it continued to be delivered

the way it was, and so it's not just the afghan side. it's the international community as well that was part of it. a final thought. we began by talking about your pretty remarkable decision to come back to afghanistan despite these very difficult circumstances. you believe the taliban will make good on their promises to respect rights and to form a national government. but what if you're wrong? i remain optimistic. am i certain? absolutely not. and optimism is something that we need to create. if we abandon and run away from this country and not engage with the taliban, then we will leave it to the taliban's rule. that's why we need to return and engage with them, and play our role. and if at the end we do not succeed, then at least we will say we tried.

so, to tell me that i'm certain, i'm absolutely confident, no, i'm not, but i remain optimistic. i feel hope. i do talk to the ordinary taliban in whose eyes i see thirst for peace. i see the taliban commanders in whose eyes i see thirst for peace, stability, good life, and i see taliban leadership in whose eyes i see thirst for it. i see acknowledgement that, in the past a0 years, there's been mistakes made by different groups and all that, including by the taliban, and those mistakes should not be repeated. i see acknowledgement that afghanistan needs to be part of the rest of the world, connected to them, recognised by them, and these are the type of things that i take as positive. we have to end there, but, omarzakhilwal, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me from kabul. thank you.

hello there. the last day of august was rather cloudy and cool with spots of drizzle across eastern areas. best of any sunshine towards the west. indeed the next few days of september are looking pretty similar, often cloudy, occasional drizzle in the east. a little bit of sunshine at times, particularly across the more sheltered western parts. for wednesday it's a rather cloudy picture again. the thickest of the cloud against eastern coast where we will see light rain or drizzle. but through the afternoon we could see quite a bit of sunshine for scotland, maybe northern ireland for the western virginia and into the southwest. but it will be breezy across the channel.

certainly around the north sea coast. that will take at the edge of the temperature, highs here around the mid to upper teens. further inland a little bit warmer where you have the sunshine across central western scotland in particular we could see temperatures reaching around 21—22 degrees. as we head through wednesday night it stays mostly cloudy so for england and wales, a bit of cloud continuing for eastern scotland then it will trundle its way eastward although some western parts of scotland, northern ireland could stay clear. it will be fairly cool under clear skies where we have the cloud and the breeze 11—14 degrees. very little change for thursday and friday. an area of high pressure still sitting on top of us and bringing this north, north easterly airflow. it'll bring a lot of cloud again into northern and eastern areas in particular. further west that you are a better chance of seeing some sunny breaks of course, temperatures in the sunshine reaching the low 20s. otherwise it's mid to high teens in the cloudier spots. for the weekend, signs of change. an area of high pressure begins to break down

and moves eastward which allows this area of low pressure to slowly push in from the atlantic. that's going to bring in increasing breeze and also the chance of showers or even longer spells of rain particularly for part two of the weekend. saturday doesn't look too bad. looks like irt will stay mostly dry. variable cloud, light winds. light winds with some sunshine. the winds will start to pick up across southern and western areas as that area of low pressure arrives was up by the end of the day he could start to see showery burst of raisins arriving here. temperatures, low 20s in the brighter spots. mid to high teens across the far northeast. into sunday it looks like we will see a band of rain start spreading across the country that could be quite heavy. followed by sunshine and heavy showers.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines. the us president lays out a forceful defence of his nation's withdrawal from afghanistan — ending america's longest war. we succeeded in what we set out to do in afghanistan over a decade ago and we stayed for another decade. it was time to end this war. american uniforms, american weapons — but taliban fighters. these are the spoils of a war — that was america's longest military mission. now it is ended and the worst of ways.