hello and welcome to dateline london. i am martine croxall. this week our discussion is all about money. here in the uk the government has announced the biggest set of tax rises since the second world war. the imf, the world bank and about banks everywhere are trying to decide whether they will release afghanistan's frozen assets and thereby avoid humanitarian

disaster. our guest this week... the guardian columnist polly toynbee, mina al oraibi, the national newspaper reporter and still in the distance here with me in the bbc is the bbc�*s business editor simon jack. welcome to all. so to begin with, borisjohnson's government has announced the largest tax increases in the uk for decades to try to fix the nhs and the social care sector. some say that the £36 billion it will raise over three years won't solve the crisis. other critics say that the tax rises are unfairly distributed. let's begin this conversation with polly. to what extent, polly toynbee, do you believe what the government is proposing will solve the problem with social care, which we have been discussing in this country for years? discussing in this country for ears? , ,., ., years? yes, government after government — years? yes, government after government has _ years? yes, government after government has failed - years? yes, government after government has failed to - years? yes, government after| government has failed to grasp years? yes, government after - government has failed to grasp it. at least this government has come up with something, but the something is nearly enough —— isn't nearly enough

and it doesn't begin to plan. most of the money it is using will go to compensating richerfamilies of the money it is using will go to compensating richer families who are paying at the moment so that they paying at the moment so that they pay a bit less. they will still be paying. i think a lot of people are quite shocked to find they are still paying up quite shocked to find they are still paying up to £86,000, but at least they get some compensation. lots of people will still have to sell their homes to pay for their care, but borisjohnson had promised nobody would. and they will be very little left over from what is really the most important question, which is a very low quality of care. nearly 2 million people who are not getting any care who would have qualified a decade ago, but the pressure and has been raised so they no longer qualify for any care at all and the care home owners and people who provide care are desperate. they cannot keep their staff, they cannot pay their staff enough. what the state pays for each person is much too little and i am afraid it does

not solve any of those. a little bit, but probably about the same little bit that has been given a three year as a thunder to keep going. three year as a thunder to keep anoin. �* ., , ., , going. and to begin with the money is auoin to going. and to begin with the money is going to go _ going. and to begin with the money is going to go to _ going. and to begin with the money is going to go to the _ going. and to begin with the money is going to go to the nhs _ going. and to begin with the money is going to go to the nhs anyway, l is going to go to the nhs anyway, rather than social care, because the government thinks there is catching up government thinks there is catching up to do because of the backlog of cases brought about by covid, where only covid patients were really being seen in hospital. simon, we have got this rather unusual situation where we have got a conservative government in favour of tax increases and a labour opposition who don't want to see them because, as polly alluded to in there, they don't regard them as being fair, they are being regressive, so what's the alternative?— regressive, so what's the alternative? ~ , ., , ., alternative? well, the phrase that is doinu alternative? well, the phrase that is doing the _ alternative? well, the phrase that is doing the rounds _ alternative? well, the phrase that is doing the rounds at _ alternative? well, the phrase that is doing the rounds at the - alternative? well, the phrase that| is doing the rounds at the moment is, good _ is doing the rounds at the moment is, good politics. _ is doing the rounds at the moment is, good politics, bad— is doing the rounds at the moment is, good politics, bad policy, - is doing the rounds at the moment is, good politics, bad policy, in- is, good politics, bad policy, in the sense _ is, good politics, bad policy, in the sense that _ is, good politics, bad policy, in the sense that the _ is, good politics, bad policy, in the sense that the politics - is, good politics, bad policy, in the sense that the politics of. is, good politics, bad policy, in the sense that the politics of iti is, good politics, bad policy, in. the sense that the politics of it is that by— the sense that the politics of it is that by increasing _ the sense that the politics of it is that by increasing national- that by increasing national insurance. _ that by increasing national insurance, which - that by increasing national insurance, which uk - that by increasing national. insurance, which uk viewers that by increasing national- insurance, which uk viewers will know _ insurance, which uk viewers will know has— insurance, which uk viewers will know has a — insurance, which uk viewers will know has a mythology— insurance, which uk viewers will know has a mythology about - insurance, which uk viewers will know has a mythology about it l insurance, which uk viewers will - know has a mythology about it which is that _ know has a mythology about it which is that it _ know has a mythology about it which is that it is _ know has a mythology about it which is that it is some _ know has a mythology about it which is that it is some kind of— know has a mythology about it which is that it is some kind of piggybankl is that it is some kind of piggybank you put— is that it is some kind of piggybank you put money— is that it is some kind of piggybank you put money in— is that it is some kind of piggybank you put money in and _ is that it is some kind of piggybank you put money in and that - is that it is some kind of piggybank you put money in and that means. is that it is some kind of piggybankl you put money in and that means it will he _ you put money in and that means it will he looked — you put money in and that means it

will be looked after _ you put money in and that means it will be looked after in _ you put money in and that means it will be looked after in your- will be looked after in your retirement— will be looked after in your retirement and _ will be looked after in your retirement and beyond. in| will be looked after in your- retirement and beyond. in fact it is 'ust retirement and beyond. in fact it is just another— retirement and beyond. in fact it is just another tax _ retirement and beyond. in fact it is just another tax and _ retirement and beyond. in fact it is just another tax and therefore - just another tax and therefore politically _ just another tax and therefore politically raising _ just another tax and therefore politically raising that - just another tax and therefore politically raising that is - just another tax and therefore politically raising that is muchj politically raising that is much easier, — politically raising that is much easier, less— politically raising that is much easier, less problematic- politically raising that is much easier, less problematic than| easier, less problematic than raising — easier, less problematic than raising income _ easier, less problematic than raising income tax. _ easier, less problematic than raising income tax. the - easier, less problematic than raising income tax. the other easier, less problematic than - raising income tax. the other part of the _ raising income tax. the other part of the problem _ raising income tax. the other part of the problem of _ raising income tax. the other part of the problem of the _ raising income tax. the other part of the problem of the policy - raising income tax. the other part of the problem of the policy is - raising income tax. the other part of the problem of the policy is it. of the problem of the policy is it is generally— of the problem of the policy is it is generally being _ of the problem of the policy is it is generally being seen - of the problem of the policy is it is generally being seen as- of the problem of the policy is it is generally being seen as a - of the problem of the policy is it is generally being seen as a tax| of the problem of the policy is it. is generally being seen as a tax on the young, — is generally being seen as a tax on the young, working _ is generally being seen as a tax on the young, working population- is generally being seen as a tax on the young, working population to. is generally being seen as a tax on. the young, working population to pay for an— the young, working population to pay for an elderly— the young, working population to pay for an elderly population _ the young, working population to pay for an elderly population closer- the young, working population to pay for an elderly population closer to - for an elderly population closer to needing _ for an elderly population closer to needing the — for an elderly population closer to needing the kind _ for an elderly population closer to needing the kind of— for an elderly population closer to needing the kind of services, - needing the kind of services, whether— needing the kind of services, whether it _ needing the kind of services, whether it is _ needing the kind of services, whether it is in _ needing the kind of services, whether it is in the _ needing the kind of services, whether it is in the nhs - needing the kind of services, whether it is in the nhs or. needing the kind of services, whether it is in the nhs or inj whether it is in the nhs or in social— whether it is in the nhs or in social care, _ whether it is in the nhs or in social care, then— whether it is in the nhs or in social care, then the - whether it is in the nhs or in social care, then the people i whether it is in the nhs or in- social care, then the people who are actually _ social care, then the people who are actually heing — social care, then the people who are actually being forced _ social care, then the people who are actually being forced to _ social care, then the people who are actually being forced to pay - social care, then the people who are actually being forced to pay for - social care, then the people who are actually being forced to pay for it, i actually being forced to pay for it, and therefore _ actually being forced to pay for it, and therefore it _ actually being forced to pay for it, and therefore it is— actually being forced to pay for it, and therefore it is being - actually being forced to pay for it, and therefore it is being seen - actually being forced to pay for it, and therefore it is being seen as. and therefore it is being seen as looking — and therefore it is being seen as looking after— and therefore it is being seen as looking after the _ and therefore it is being seen as looking after the grey _ and therefore it is being seen as looking after the grey vote, - and therefore it is being seen as. looking after the grey vote, which the tories — looking after the grey vote, which the tories have _ looking after the grey vote, which the tories have think _ looking after the grey vote, which the tories have think they- looking after the grey vote, which the tories have think they have i looking after the grey vote, which the tories have think they have a | the tories have think they have a strong _ the tories have think they have a strong hold — the tories have think they have a strong hold on. _ the tories have think they have a strong hold on, and _ the tories have think they have a strong hold on, and neglecting . strong hold on, and neglecting younger voters. _ strong hold on, and neglecting younger voters. that _ strong hold on, and neglecting younger voters. that is - strong hold on, and neglecting younger voters. that is why. strong hold on, and neglectingl younger voters. that is why the labour — younger voters. that is why the labour party— younger voters. that is why the labour party wasn't _ younger voters. that is why the labour party wasn't such - younger voters. that is why the labour party wasn't such a - younger voters. that is why the i labour party wasn't such a difficult position. _ labour party wasn't such a difficult position. anyway _ labour party wasn't such a difficult position. anyway a— labour party wasn't such a difficult position, anyway. a lot _ labour party wasn't such a difficult position, anyway. a lot of - labour party wasn't such a difficult position, anyway. a lot of people i position, anyway. a lot of people think— position, anyway. a lot of people think how— position, anyway. a lot of people think how can _ position, anyway. a lot of people think how can you _ position, anyway. a lot of people think how can you vote _ position, anyway. a lot of people think how can you vote against. position, anyway. a lot of people l think how can you vote against this when _ think how can you vote against this when basically— think how can you vote against this when basically government - think how can you vote against this when basically government after. when basically government after government. _ when basically government after government, and _ when basically government after government, and generation - when basically government after| government, and generation after generation— government, and generation after generation have _ government, and generation after generation have failed _ government, and generation after generation have failed to - government, and generation after generation have failed to grasp i government, and generation after| generation have failed to grasp this metal— generation have failed to grasp this metal and — generation have failed to grasp this metal and even— generation have failed to grasp this metal and even some _ generation have failed to grasp this metal and even some labour- generation have failed to grasp this . metal and even some labour leaders, like andy— metal and even some labour leaders, like andy the — metal and even some labour leaders, like andy the mayor _ metal and even some labour leaders, like andy the mayor of _ metal and even some labour leaders, like andy the mayor of manchester, . like andy the mayor of manchester, who spoke — like andy the mayor of manchester, who spoke to — like andy the mayor of manchester, who spoke to yesterday, _ like andy the mayor of manchester, who spoke to yesterday, said - like andy the mayor of manchester, who spoke to yesterday, said you i who spoke to yesterday, said you have _ who spoke to yesterday, said you have got — who spoke to yesterday, said you have got to — who spoke to yesterday, said you have got to have _ who spoke to yesterday, said you have got to have some _ who spoke to yesterday, said you have got to have some credit- who spoke to yesterday, said you have got to have some credit forl have got to have some credit for trying _ have got to have some credit for trying to — have got to have some credit for trying to take _ have got to have some credit for trying to take this _ have got to have some credit for trying to take this on, _ have got to have some credit for trying to take this on, but - have got to have some credit for trying to take this on, but the i trying to take this on, but the mechanism _

trying to take this on, but the mechanism through - trying to take this on, but the mechanism through which - trying to take this on, but the. mechanism through which they trying to take this on, but the - mechanism through which they have done it— mechanism through which they have done it is— mechanism through which they have done it is very— mechanism through which they have done it is very hard _ mechanism through which they have done it is very hard to— mechanism through which they have done it is very hard tojustify. - mechanism through which they have done it is very hard tojustify. the i done it is very hard tojustify. the other— done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing — done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing is— done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing is if— done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing is if there _ done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing is if there is _ done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing is if there is a - done it is very hard tojustify. the other thing is if there is a huge i other thing is if there is a huge political— other thing is if there is a huge political moment— other thing is if there is a huge political moment because - other thing is if there is a huge political moment because as l other thing is if there is a huge i political moment because as polly would _ political moment because as polly would probably— political moment because as polly would probably say— political moment because as polly would probably say more - political moment because as polly. would probably say more eloquently than i _ would probably say more eloquently than i will. — would probably say more eloquently than i will. the — would probably say more eloquently than i will, the tories _ would probably say more eloquently than i will, the tories have - would probably say more eloquently than i will, the tories have sold - than i will, the tories have sold themselves— than i will, the tories have sold themselves as _ than i will, the tories have sold themselves as the _ than i will, the tories have sold themselves as the business - than i will, the tories have sold - themselves as the business friendly, low tax _ themselves as the business friendly, low tax value — themselves as the business friendly, low tax value for— themselves as the business friendly, low tax value for money, _ themselves as the business friendly, low tax value for money, making - themselves as the business friendly, | low tax value for money, making sure you get— low tax value for money, making sure you get reforms — low tax value for money, making sure you get reforms along _ low tax value for money, making sure you get reforms along the _ low tax value for money, making sure you get reforms along the way - low tax value for money, making sure you get reforms along the way and i you get reforms along the way and many— you get reforms along the way and many of— you get reforms along the way and many of their— you get reforms along the way and many of their own _ you get reforms along the way and many of their own backbenchers i you get reforms along the way and i many of their own backbenchers are saying _ many of their own backbenchers are saying this — many of their own backbenchers are saying this marks _ many of their own backbenchers are saying this marks the _ many of their own backbenchers are saying this marks the end _ many of their own backbenchers are saying this marks the end of- many of their own backbenchers are saying this marks the end of that. saying this marks the end of that era. saying this marks the end of that era in— saying this marks the end of that era. in retrospect, _ saying this marks the end of that era. in retrospect, will— saying this marks the end of that era. in retrospect, will be - saying this marks the end of thatj era. in retrospect, will be looked back— era. in retrospect, will be looked back on— era. in retrospect, will be looked back on this _ era. in retrospect, will be looked back on this is _ era. in retrospect, will be looked back on this is a _ era. in retrospect, will be looked back on this is a very— era. in retrospect, will be looked back on this is a very significant i back on this is a very significant moment— back on this is a very significant moment in— back on this is a very significant moment in british _ back on this is a very significant moment in british politics? - back on this is a very significant moment in british politics? thej moment in british politics? the conservative _ moment in british politics? tip; conservative government, moment in british politics?- conservative government, rishi sunak, surprised a lot of people and how he approached the pandemic, didn't he? by spending huge amounts of money to keep people afloat who were furloughed on keep businesses alive who couldn't open. i keep businesses alive who couldn't 0 en. ., �* ~ . keep businesses alive who couldn't 0 en, ., �* 4' ., ., , open. i don't think there are many --eole open. i don't think there are many people out — open. i don't think there are many people out there _ open. i don't think there are many people out there who _ open. i don't think there are many people out there who would - open. i don't think there are many people out there who would say i open. i don't think there are many l people out there who would say that was a _ people out there who would say that was a waste — people out there who would say that was a waste of— people out there who would say that was a waste of money— people out there who would say that was a waste of money or _ people out there who would say that was a waste of money or he - people out there who would say that was a waste of money or he had - people out there who would say that i was a waste of money or he had much choice _ was a waste of money or he had much choice in _ was a waste of money or he had much choice in doing — was a waste of money or he had much choice in doing that. _ was a waste of money or he had much choice in doing that. interesting - was a waste of money or he had much choice in doing that. interesting i- choice in doing that. interesting i was speaking _ choice in doing that. interesting i was speaking to _ choice in doing that. interesting i was speaking to one _ choice in doing that. interesting i was speaking to one senior- choice in doing that. interesting i. was speaking to one senior business leader— was speaking to one senior business leader with — was speaking to one senior business leader with tory _ was speaking to one senior business leader with tory affiliations - was speaking to one senior business leader with tory affiliations who - leader with tory affiliations who affiliations _ leader with tory affiliations who affiliations who _ leader with tory affiliations who affiliations who said, _ leader with tory affiliations who affiliations who said, if - leader with tory affiliations who affiliations who said, if you - leader with tory affiliations who affiliations who said, if you hadl affiliations who said, if you had presented _ affiliations who said, if you had presented this _ affiliations who said, if you had presented this tax _ affiliations who said, if you had presented this tax rise - affiliations who said, if you had presented this tax rise as - affiliations who said, if you had presented this tax rise as a - affiliations who said, if you had l presented this tax rise as a covid and furlough _ presented this tax rise as a covid and furlough payback— presented this tax rise as a covid and furlough payback tax - presented this tax rise as a covid and furlough payback tax and - presented this tax rise as a covid and furlough payback tax and sol presented this tax rise as a covid . and furlough payback tax and so do the business — and furlough payback tax and so do the business community, _ and furlough payback tax and so do the business community, we - and furlough payback tax and so do the business community, we havel and furlough payback tax and so do i the business community, we have just spent _ the business community, we have just spent hundreds— the business community, we have just

spent hundreds of— the business community, we have just spent hundreds of billions _ the business community, we have just spent hundreds of billions of- the business community, we have just spent hundreds of billions of pounds l spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying _ spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying the _ spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying the wages _ spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying the wages of— spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying the wages of most _ spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying the wages of most of- spent hundreds of billions of pounds paying the wages of most of your. paying the wages of most of your staff and — paying the wages of most of your staff and keeping _ paying the wages of most of your staff and keeping businesses - paying the wages of most of your i staff and keeping businesses afloat. now we _ staff and keeping businesses afloat. now we need — staff and keeping businesses afloat. now we need some _ staff and keeping businesses afloat. now we need some of— staff and keeping businesses afloat. now we need some of that - staff and keeping businesses afloat. now we need some of that money. staff and keeping businesses afloat. - now we need some of that money back. it now we need some of that money back. it might— now we need some of that money back. it might have _ now we need some of that money back. it might have flown _ now we need some of that money back. it might have flown a _ now we need some of that money back. it might have flown a bit _ now we need some of that money back. it might have flown a bit better- it might have flown a bit better than _ it might have flown a bit better than the — it might have flown a bit better than the social— it might have flown a bit better than the social care _ it might have flown a bit better than the social care health - it might have flown a bit better. than the social care health service one _ than the social care health service one and — than the social care health service one and as — than the social care health service one and as you _ than the social care health service one. and as you pointed - than the social care health service one. and as you pointed out, - one. and as you pointed out, originally— one. and as you pointed out, originally it _ one. and as you pointed out, originally it was _ one. and as you pointed out, originally it was about - one. and as you pointed out, originally it was about sociall one. and as you pointed out, - originally it was about social care. most— originally it was about social care. most of— originally it was about social care. most of the — originally it was about social care. most of the money— originally it was about social care. most of the money is _ originally it was about social care. most of the money is going - originally it was about social care. most of the money is going to - originally it was about social care. most of the money is going to goi originally it was about social care. l most of the money is going to go to the nhs _ most of the money is going to go to the nhs and — most of the money is going to go to the nhs and some _ most of the money is going to go to the nhs and some people - most of the money is going to go to the nhs and some people in - most of the money is going to go to the nhs and some people in the - most of the money is going to go to. the nhs and some people in the tory hackhenches — the nhs and some people in the tory hackhenches say— the nhs and some people in the tory backbenches say the _ the nhs and some people in the tory backbenches say the nhs _ the nhs and some people in the tory backbenches say the nhs is - the nhs and some people in the tory backbenches say the nhs is a - the nhs and some people in the tory backbenches say the nhs is a very i backbenches say the nhs is a very effective _ backbenches say the nhs is a very effective sponge _ backbenches say the nhs is a very effective sponge to _ backbenches say the nhs is a very effective sponge to soak _ backbenches say the nhs is a very effective sponge to soak up - backbenches say the nhs is a very| effective sponge to soak up money and it— effective sponge to soak up money and it always — effective sponge to soak up money and it always does, _ effective sponge to soak up money and it always does, and _ effective sponge to soak up money and it always does, and if- effective sponge to soak up money and it always does, and if you - effective sponge to soak up money| and it always does, and if you don't do it with _ and it always does, and if you don't do it with reform _ and it always does, and if you don't do it with reform there _ and it always does, and if you don't do it with reform there might- and it always does, and if you don't do it with reform there might not. and it always does, and if you don'ti do it with reform there might not be much _ do it with reform there might not be much left _ do it with reform there might not be much left for — do it with reform there might not be much left for social— do it with reform there might not be much left for social care... - do it with reform there might not be much left for social care... hang - do it with reform there might not be much left for social care. . ._ much left for social care... hang on a minute. — much left for social care... hang on a minute. we _ much left for social care... hang on a minute, we are _ much left for social care... hang on a minute, we are in _ much left for social care... hang on a minute, we are in the _ much left for social care... hang on a minute, we are in the middle - much left for social care... hang on a minute, we are in the middle of. a minute, we are in the middle of one huge reform and we are about to do another reform. people who say that mostly people who don't like the nhs anyway, so they say it is a black hole, a sponge. those are people who are really anti—nhs. the truth about the tax situation is really interesting, people abroad might not realise this, but britain remains a low tax country compared to equivalent countries. also the amount of money that we spent on bellowing people in the coded

crisis, while every country had to reach deep into its pockets and spend a lot, we spent actually less, a lot less than america and germany and some other countries, per head. so the idea that we have become this wild spending country, as ever we are behind most of our equivalents. let's talk about the cultural aspects of this, mina al oraibi. what would your readers of the national make of this discussion that we have been having in this country for a long, long time about social care, which is what do we do with people who can't look after themselves, at any age, but we often think about all the people who would put into homes and care homes, where they are understaffed and under resourced. what with their reaction be to how we are dealing with this? it is a great question, martin, because — it is a great question, martin, because it _ it is a great question, martin, because it is about how do societies -- mike _ because it is about how do societies —— mike martine croxall, because it is about— —— mike martine croxall, because it is about how— —— mike martine croxall, because it is about how do societies take care of their— is about how do societies take care of their older citizens? it is interesting earlier on same and were

saying _ interesting earlier on same and were saying about this is about the grey vote are _ saying about this is about the grey vote are and what happens to the young _ vote are and what happens to the young voter, whereas i think you will find — young voter, whereas i think you will find that other societies would have a _ will find that other societies would have a sense of obligation to take care of— have a sense of obligation to take care of those who are older, would have _ care of those who are older, would have worked and paid taxes under different— have worked and paid taxes under different circumstances, and now need _ different circumstances, and now need to— different circumstances, and now need to he — different circumstances, and now need to be taken care of. i think the context— need to be taken care of. i think the context of social care is not always — the context of social care is not always understood outside the uk, but what _ always understood outside the uk, but what is understood as the nhs and that— but what is understood as the nhs and that idea of free health care and that idea of free health care and compared to other systems around the world _ and compared to other systems around the world there is a lot of respect for the _ the world there is a lot of respect for the nhs and that sense that yes, the nhs _ for the nhs and that sense that yes, the nhs should be protected. but i think the _ the nhs should be protected. but i think the point about if this is put within— think the point about if this is put within the — think the point about if this is put within the context of covid—19, the entire _ within the context of covid—19, the entire world is looking for ways of how to _ entire world is looking for ways of how to have their economies recover after covid—19. however, this is heing _ after covid—19. however, this is heing put— after covid—19. however, this is being put more in a political context— being put more in a political context very uk focused domestic politics— context very uk focused domestic politics and it is interesting to see the — politics and it is interesting to see the initial polling that has come — see the initial polling that has come out, the first polling after this. _ come out, the first polling after this. that — come out, the first polling after this, that the tories actually for the first— this, that the tories actually for the first time since january have taken _ the first time since january have taken a —

the first time since january have taken a hit — the first time since january have taken a bit of a hit on the 33% popularity— taken a bit of a hit on the 33% popularity compared to labour, which has gone _ popularity compared to labour, which has gone forward with 35%, again the first time _ has gone forward with 35%, again the first time leading since january. for outside voters and overseas observers — for outside voters and overseas observers of the uk that is really interesting because you would think that the _ interesting because you would think that the tories, saying that they would _ that the tories, saying that they would take care of others and the social— would take care of others and the social care — would take care of others and the social care aspect of this and the nhs aspect of it, you wouldn't ekpect— nhs aspect of it, you wouldn't expect labour would get a bit of a bumper— expect labour would get a bit of a bumper saying that this is not good enough. _ bumper saying that this is not good enough, more has to be done. but i do think— enough, more has to be done. but i do think that — enough, more has to be done. but i do think that ultimately the reference to grey voters often is seen _ reference to grey voters often is seen as — reference to grey voters often is seen as somewhat derogatory for people _ seen as somewhat derogatory for people who are older and actually do deserve _ people who are older and actually do deserve a _ people who are older and actually do deserve a little more care. and actually bother _ deserve a little more care. and actually bother to _ deserve a little more care. fific actually bother to turn out deserve a little more care. fific actually bother to turn out and vote with rather high numbers. how much of this though, polly, is down to us, the electorate? in that we need to be treated like adults, but the politicians are fearful of doing so and saying, look, if you want the services you're going to have to pay for them somehow. you can only make

the current amount of taxes stretch so far. ~ . . , the current amount of taxes stretch so far. ~ , ., , , the current amount of taxes stretch sofar. ~ ,., , , ., so far. well, it is a tiny bit of honesty _ so far. well, it is a tiny bit of honesty to — so far. well, it is a tiny bit of honesty to have _ so far. well, it is a tiny bit of honesty to have raised - so far. well, it is a tiny bit of honesty to have raised taxes| so far. well, it is a tiny bit of i honesty to have raised taxes at so far. well, it is a tiny bit of - honesty to have raised taxes at all, so give them a bit of credit for that, but as simon said, they have been absolutely dishonest as to what kind of tax it is. i mean, the national insurance is nothing like it says it is. it is the most unjust tax. but what they have ended up doing is getting young, low—paid workers to pay for preserving the wealth of richer, older people, so that they can keep their homes and pass on their inheritance, and that is mostly paid by people who are working age, a lot of whom has haven't got homes, haven't got assets and capital. this country is incredibly well heavy, particularly incredibly well heavy, particularly in the older generation and the obvious thing to do is go from the reform of wealth tax, which labour had proposed back in 2010. it wasn't popular then, had proposed back in 2010. it wasn't popularthen, might had proposed back in 2010. it wasn't popular then, might not be again, but i think people are coming round to the idea that actually where the wealthiest, the broadest shoulders is where the taxes fall and i

wouldn't be surprised within a short time if... labour has its annual party conference coming up. if we don't hear someone talk about labour putting forward some more taxes that will affect those who have the most assets. i will affect those who have the most assets. ., ., ., a , ., assets. i have got a quick question for poll , assets. i have got a quick question for polly. if — assets. i have got a quick question for polly. if a _ assets. i have got a quick question for polly, if a comic _ assets. i have got a quick question for polly, if a comic which - assets. i have got a quick question for polly, if a comic which is - assets. i have got a quick question for polly, if a comic which is do - for polly, if a comic which is do you think— for polly, if a comic which is do you think the _ for polly, if a comic which is do you think the conservatives - for polly, if a comic which is doj you think the conservatives are storing — you think the conservatives are storing up— you think the conservatives are storing up a _ you think the conservatives are storing up a problem _ you think the conservatives are storing up a problem and - you think the conservatives are j storing up a problem and wrote you think the conservatives are - storing up a problem and wrote for their own _ storing up a problem and wrote for their own back, _ storing up a problem and wrote for their own back, given _ storing up a problem and wrote for their own back, given what - storing up a problem and wrote for their own back, given what is - their own back, given what is happening _ their own back, given what is happening with _ their own back, given what is happening with education - their own back, given what is| happening with education and their own back, given what is - happening with education and the allocation — happening with education and the allocation of _ happening with education and the allocation of these _ happening with education and the allocation of these tax _ happening with education and the allocation of these tax rises - happening with education and the allocation of these tax rises for. allocation of these tax rises for the future? _ allocation of these tax rises for the future? l— allocation of these tax rises for the future?— allocation of these tax rises for the future? ~ , ., ., the future? i think they are going to be in a lot _ the future? i think they are going to be in a lot of— the future? i think they are going to be in a lot of trouble _ the future? i think they are going to be in a lot of trouble because i the future? i think they are going | to be in a lot of trouble because it is notjust... the money is going to cut the house and people really worried about how long the waiting times are to have an operation and this isn't really going to cover that, but they made it sound as if they will. they should perhaps have said, these are very hard times and this is going to be difficult, instead of which they have made rather wild promises. education is still 1% less than it was getting in 2010 and ideally all the other departments, apart from defence, are going to be hit very hard over the next few years and this government

is pretending to be a spendthrift father christmas kind of government, not backed austerity, but austerity is exactly what most government spending is going to feel like in the next few years. i spending is going to feel like in the next few years.— spending is going to feel like in the next few years. i 'ust wondered whether simon _ the next few years. i 'ust wondered whether simon and — the next few years. i just wondered whether simon and mina _ the next few years. i just wondered j whether simon and mina al-oraibi, whether simon and mina al—oraibi, you have come across many places in the world that would take out insurance policies. we can only do that for your social care if you have got the money. mina al—oraibi, do see that around the world? i do. do see that around the world? i do, and i do see that around the world? i do, and i think— do see that around the world? i do, and i think there _ do see that around the world? i do, and i think there is _ do see that around the world? i do, and i think there is also _ do see that around the world? i do, and i think there is also a _ do see that around the world? i do, and i think there is also a question about— and i think there is also a question about public debt. uk's public debt exceeded _ about public debt. uk's public debt exceeded 400% of gdp last year for the first— exceeded 400% of gdp last year for the first time since 1963, but there are many— the first time since 1963, but there are many countries around the world that are _ are many countries around the world that are having to deal with public debt. _ that are having to deal with public debt. but— that are having to deal with public debt, but not coming up with solutions— debt, but not coming up with solutions because two polly's point there _ solutions because two polly's point there are _ solutions because two polly's point there are tough political decisions to he _ there are tough political decisions to be made in the long term and unfortunately too much of politics in the _ unfortunately too much of politics in the uk — unfortunately too much of politics in the uk and into many countries are based — in the uk and into many countries are based on election cycles. people already— are based on election cycles. people already here are talking about the election. — already here are talking about the election, but it really isn't due

until— election, but it really isn't due until 2024, election, but it really isn't due until2024, but election, but it really isn't due until 2024, but people are thinking about— until 2024, but people are thinking about how— until 2024, but people are thinking about how will this reflect on the ballot _ about how will this reflect on the ballot boxes, rather than long—term reforms _ ballot boxes, rather than long—term reforms that will be tough politically. reforms that will be tough politically-— reforms that will be tough oliticall. ., , reforms that will be tough oliticall . ., ., . , ., politically. there are voices on the left, i politically. there are voices on the left. i would _ politically. there are voices on the left, i would say, _ politically. there are voices on the left, i would say, you _ politically. there are voices on the left, i would say, you say - politically. there are voices on the left, i would say, you say actually| left, i would say, you say actually this is— left, i would say, you say actually this is a _ left, i would say, you say actually this is a false _ left, i would say, you say actually this is a false debate _ left, i would say, you say actually this is a false debate and - left, i would say, you say actually this is a false debate and be - left, i would say, you say actually this is a false debate and be rishi sunak— this is a false debate and be rishi sunak position _ this is a false debate and be rishi sunak position that _ this is a false debate and be rishi sunak position that we _ this is a false debate and be rishi sunak position that we have - this is a false debate and be rishi sunak position that we have to i this is a false debate and be rishi . sunak position that we have to keep public— sunak position that we have to keep public debt— sunak position that we have to keep public debt within _ sunak position that we have to keep public debt within 100%, _ sunak position that we have to keep public debt within 100%, which - sunak position that we have to keep public debt within 100%, which is i public debt within 100%, which is the highest — public debt within 100%, which is the highest for— public debt within 100%, which is the highest for many _ public debt within 100%, which is the highest for many decades, i public debt within 100%, which isj the highest for many decades, as mina _ the highest for many decades, as mina al—oraibi — the highest for many decades, as mina al—oraibi has— the highest for many decades, as mina al—oraibi has pointed - the highest for many decades, as mina al—oraibi has pointed out, i the highest for many decades, as . mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually— mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually the — mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually the reality— mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually the reality is _ mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually the reality is we _ mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually the reality is we have - mina al—oraibi has pointed out, but actually the reality is we have got . actually the reality is we have got our own _ actually the reality is we have got our own currency _ actually the reality is we have got our own currency and _ actually the reality is we have got our own currency and can - actually the reality is we have got our own currency and can print. actually the reality is we have got our own currency and can print asj our own currency and can print as much _ our own currency and can print as much money— our own currency and can print as much money as— our own currency and can print as much money as we _ our own currency and can print as much money as we like _ our own currency and can print as much money as we like the - our own currency and can print as much money as we like the bankl our own currency and can print as l much money as we like the bank of england _ much money as we like the bank of england is— much money as we like the bank of england is actually— much money as we like the bank of england is actually tacitly— much money as we like the bank of england is actually tacitly funding l england is actually tacitly funding the government, _ england is actually tacitly funding the government, so— england is actually tacitly funding the government, so this - england is actually tacitly funding the government, so this is - england is actually tacitly funding the government, so this is a - england is actually tacitly funding | the government, so this is a false choice _ the government, so this is a false choice that— the government, so this is a false choice that is _ the government, so this is a false choice that is one _ the government, so this is a false choice that is one point _ the government, so this is a false choice that is one point of- the government, so this is a false choice that is one point of views l choice that is one point of views which _ choice that is one point of views which is — choice that is one point of views which is quite _ choice that is one point of views which is quite prevalent- choice that is one point of views which is quite prevalent at - choice that is one point of views which is quite prevalent at the l which is quite prevalent at the moment _ which is quite prevalent at the moment the _ which is quite prevalent at the moment. the treasury - which is quite prevalent at the moment. the treasury would i which is quite prevalent at the i moment. the treasury would say which is quite prevalent at the - moment. the treasury would say that is not _ moment. the treasury would say that is not the _ moment. the treasury would say that is not the case — moment. the treasury would say that is not the case in _ moment. the treasury would say that is not the case in difference _ moment. the treasury would say that is not the case in difference is - moment. the treasury would say that is not the case in difference is you - is not the case in difference is you have _ is not the case in difference is you have to _ is not the case in difference is you have to pretend _ is not the case in difference is you have to pretend you _ is not the case in difference is you have to pretend you have - is not the case in difference is you have to pretend you have a - is not the case in difference is you have to pretend you have a plan . is not the case in difference is you. have to pretend you have a plan for public _ have to pretend you have a plan for public finances _ have to pretend you have a plan for public finances just _ have to pretend you have a plan for public finances just to _ have to pretend you have a plan for public finances just to keep - public finances just to keep international— public finances just to keep international investors, - public finances just to keepl international investors, who public finances just to keep - international investors, who by the wavelength — international investors, who by the wavelength of— international investors, who by the wavelength of the _ international investors, who by the wavelength of the uk _ international investors, who by the wavelength of the uk governmentl international investors, who by the - wavelength of the uk government this money, _ wavelength of the uk government this money. you _ wavelength of the uk government this money. you have _ wavelength of the uk government this money. you have got _ wavelength of the uk government this money, you have got to— wavelength of the uk government this money, you have got to keep - wavelength of the uk government this money, you have got to keep on - money, you have got to keep on believing — money, you have got to keep on believing that _ money, you have got to keep on believing that you _ money, you have got to keep on believing that you still _ money, you have got to keep on believing that you still believe . money, you have got to keep onj believing that you still believe in fiscal— believing that you still believe in fiscal rectitude _ believing that you still believe in fiscal rectitude and _ believing that you still believe in fiscal rectitude and cutting - believing that you still believe ini fiscal rectitude and cutting across according — fiscal rectitude and cutting across according to _ fiscal rectitude and cutting across according to your— fiscal rectitude and cutting across according to your means. - fiscal rectitude and cutting across according to your means. the - fiscal rectitude and cutting across according to your means.- fiscal rectitude and cutting across according to your means. the c word arain according to your means. the c word again confidence... _ according to your means. the c word again confidence... today _ according to your means. the c word again confidence... today we - according to your means. the c word again confidence... today we have . again confidence... today we have 'ust had again confidence... today we have just had figures — again confidence... today we have just had figures showing _ again confidence... today we have just had figures showing that - again confidence... today we have i just had figures showing that growth is practically flatlining. the danger is that by tightening the

belt now, by the treasury winning out in his argument and cutting most of the spending most departments, you do great harm to the economy, is exactly what george osborne did after the great crash in 2010. we need the government to be spending until growth is really well established and then perhaps pulling back a bit then.— back a bit then. thank you. let's move on- _ afghanistan is, to use the expression, too big to fail. warnings abound about it being a safe haven for extremists. there are worries about human rights violations, and a deepening crisis of hunger and hardship will concentrate many minds on trying to find a way to work with the new government announced this week by the taliban. a government with no female representatives. and top of the list of those seeking to help are the world bank, the imf and banks across the globe planning to unlock afghanistan's frozen assets to avoid what the secretary general of the un has described as an impending humanitarian disaster. or perhaps they are thinking about

unlocking those assets. simon, just how much money belonging to afghanistan is locked away and where is it? ., ., ' is it? there are two different strands to — is it? there are two different strands to this _ is it? there are two different strands to this and _ is it? there are two different strands to this and one - is it? there are two different strands to this and one is - is it? there are two differentl strands to this and one is that is it? there are two different - strands to this and one is that the afghan— strands to this and one is that the afghan government _ strands to this and one is that the afghan government was - strands to this and one is that the i afghan government was dependent strands to this and one is that the - afghan government was dependent for 40% of— afghan government was dependent for 40% of its_ afghan government was dependent for 40% of its national— afghan government was dependent for 40% of its national income _ afghan government was dependent for 40% of its national income on - 40% of its national income on foreign — 40% of its national income on foreign aid, _ 40% of its national income on foreign aid, so _ 40% of its national income on foreign aid, so that _ 40% of its national income on foreign aid, so that is - 40% of its national income on - foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending — foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending 50— foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending 50 if— foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending. so if you _ foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending. so if you cut— foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending. so if you cut that - foreign aid, so that is day—to—day spending. so if you cut that off, l spending. so if you cut that off, you have — spending. so if you cut that off, you have got _ spending. so if you cut that off, you have got a _ spending. so if you cut that off, you have got a serious - spending. so if you cut that off, | you have got a serious problem. spending. so if you cut that off, - you have got a serious problem. the other— you have got a serious problem. the other one _ you have got a serious problem. the other one is — you have got a serious problem. the other one is that _ you have got a serious problem. the other one is that they _ you have got a serious problem. the other one is that they had _ you have got a serious problem. the other one is that they had about - you have got a serious problem. the other one is that they had about 9— i other one is that they had about 9— $10 billion — other one is that they had about 9— $10 billion of— other one is that they had about 9— $10 billion of foreign _ other one is that they had about 9— $10 billion of foreign currency - $10 billion of foreign currency reserves and _ $10 billion of foreign currency reserves and what _ $10 billion of foreign currency reserves and what they- $10 billion of foreign currency . reserves and what they generally $10 billion of foreign currency - reserves and what they generally do with that _ reserves and what they generally do with that is — reserves and what they generally do with that is they— reserves and what they generally do with that is they use _ reserves and what they generally do with that is they use it _ reserves and what they generally do with that is they use it to _ reserves and what they generally do with that is they use it to manage i with that is they use it to manage the value — with that is they use it to manage the value of— with that is they use it to manage the value of their— with that is they use it to manage the value of their own _ with that is they use it to manage the value of their own currency. with that is they use it to manage. the value of their own currency and international— the value of their own currency and international markets. _ the value of their own currency and international markets. that - the value of their own currency and international markets. that has - the value of their own currency and l international markets. that has been frozen _ international markets. that has been frozen and _ international markets. that has been frozen and what _ international markets. that has been frozen and what that _ international markets. that has been frozen and what that can _ international markets. that has been frozen and what that can do - international markets. that has been frozen and what that can do is - international markets. that has been frozen and what that can do is send i frozen and what that can do is send currencies — frozen and what that can do is send currencies into— frozen and what that can do is send currencies into three _ frozen and what that can do is send currencies into three full _ frozen and what that can do is send currencies into three full and - frozen and what that can do is send currencies into three full and you i currencies into three full and you -et currencies into three full and you get hyperinflation, _ currencies into three full and you get hyperinflation, now- currencies into three full and you get hyperinflation, now we - currencies into three full and you get hyperinflation, now we havel currencies into three full and you - get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of— get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of that, — get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit ofthat, but— get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of that, but not— get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of that, but not as _ get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of that, but not as much - get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of that, but not as much as- get hyperinflation, now we have seen a bit of that, but not as much as we i a bit of that, but not as much as we thought _ a bit of that, but not as much as we thought the — a bit of that, but not as much as we thought. the question— a bit of that, but not as much as we thought. the question of— a bit of that, but not as much as we thought. the question of the - thought. the question of the international— thought. the question of the international community - thought. the question of the| international community now thought. the question of the . international community now is exactty— international community now is exactly economically— international community now is exactly economically an - international community now is - exactly economically an economically do you _ exactly economically an economically do you approach _ exactly economically an economically do you approach the _ exactly economically an economically do you approach the new _ exactly economically an economically do you approach the new taliban - do you approach the new taliban locus— do you approach the new taliban locus government. _ do you approach the new taliban locus government. if _ do you approach the new taliban locus government. if you - do you approach the new taliban locus government. if you play. locus government. if you play hardball— locus government. if you play hardball and _ locus government. if you play hardball and threes— locus government. if you play hardball and threes this, - locus government. if you play hardball and threes this, youl locus government. if you play. hardball and threes this, you risk locus government. if you play- hardball and threes this, you risk a humanitarian — hardball and threes this, you risk a humanitarian crisis. _ hardball and threes this, you risk a humanitarian crisis. if _ hardball and threes this, you risk a humanitarian crisis. if you - hardball and threes this, you risk a humanitarian crisis. if you don't, . humanitarian crisis. if you don't, you rist— humanitarian crisis. if you don't, you risk anyway— humanitarian crisis. if you don't, you risk anyway economically- you risk anyway economically legitinrising _ you risk anyway economically legitimising and _ you risk anyway economically legitimising and recognising i

you risk anyway economically. legitimising and recognising the government— legitimising and recognising the government in— legitimising and recognising the government in place. _ legitimising and recognising the government in place. so - legitimising and recognising the government in place. so they. legitimising and recognising the | government in place. so they do legitimising and recognising the - government in place. so they do have some _ government in place. so they do have some h~ _ government in place. so they do have some h~ how— government in place. so they do have some h~ how you _ government in place. so they do have some h. how you play— government in place. so they do have some h. how you play it _ government in place. so they do have some h. how you play it is _ government in place. so they do have some h. how you play it is an- some h. how you play it is an incredibly— some h. how you play it is an incredibly difficult— some h. how you play it is an incredibly difficult diplomaticl incredibly difficult diplomatic position. _ incredibly difficult diplomatic position, which— incredibly difficult diplomatic position, which i— incredibly difficult diplomatic position, which i don't- incredibly difficult diplomatic position, which i don't thinkl position, which i don't think countries _ position, which i don't think countries around _ position, which i don't think countries around the - position, which i don't think countries around the world, j position, which i don't think- countries around the world, there is any consensus — countries around the world, there is any consensus about _ countries around the world, there is any consensus about that _ countries around the world, there is any consensus about that yet. - any consensus about that yet. indeed. — any consensus about that yet. indeed. and _ any consensus about that yet. indeed, and what— any consensus about that yet. indeed, and what are - any consensus about that yet. indeed, and what are you - any consensus about that yet. - indeed, and what are you hearing about this, mina al—oraibi? because if you don't release these assets, it is the general population that will suffer, they are going hungry and many people have tried to leave the country because they don't want to live in that regime. simon says he leverages there, but it is not obvious how you use it.- he leverages there, but it is not obvious how you use it. well, what are the levers _ obvious how you use it. well, what are the levers that _ obvious how you use it. well, what are the levers that are _ obvious how you use it. well, what are the levers that are there? - obvious how you use it. well, what are the levers that are there? part | are the levers that are there? part of it is— are the levers that are there? part of it is this — are the levers that are there? part of it is this recognition element and if— of it is this recognition element and if the — of it is this recognition element and if the assets are released it is and if the assets are released it is a recognition of the government implicitly. but also there is the language — implicitly. but also there is the language of age and where aid is being _ language of age and where aid is being sent and actually the one point _ being sent and actually the one point that the taliban should be hearing — point that the taliban should be hearing that aid is going directly to afghans, who need it most. half of the _ to afghans, who need it most. half of the afghan population relies on aid from _ of the afghan population relies on aid from abroad and 75% of that population are women and children.

and frankly, there are ngos, local afghan— and frankly, there are ngos, local afghan ngos, that have been working for over— afghan ngos, that have been working for over the _ afghan ngos, that have been working for over the last 18—19 years and they— for over the last 18—19 years and they should be the ones that are enabled — they should be the ones that are enabled. if the international community want to think that a way to get— community want to think that a way to get those afghans needed, they should _ to get those afghans needed, they should say that those ngos... what remains _ should say that those ngos... what remains of— should say that those ngos... what remains of them, of course some of them _ remains of them, of course some of them are _ remains of them, of course some of them are in— remains of them, of course some of them are in hiding, some of them for their members have fled because they are concerned, but many are still on the ground, — are concerned, but many are still on the ground, so they should be enabled — the ground, so they should be enabled via the uk and others who work— enabled via the uk and others who work with— enabled via the uk and others who work with these entities, they can turn around — work with these entities, they can turn around and use that h and turn to the _ turn around and use that h and turn to the taliban and say, we want to work— to the taliban and say, we want to work with— to the taliban and say, we want to work with those partners who we have trusted _ work with those partners who we have trusted who _ work with those partners who we have trusted who we know where any funding — trusted who we know where any funding and money comes will go directly— funding and money comes will go directly to— funding and money comes will go directly to those people. so i think it could _ directly to those people. so i think it could actually be quite a healthy channel _ it could actually be quite a healthy channel to — it could actually be quite a healthy channel to try to establish, not to leave _ channel to try to establish, not to leave afghanistan behind and one of the biggest concerns, of course, to your point— the biggest concerns, of course, to your point about refugees, is that now that — your point about refugees, is that now that the evacuation have really ended _ now that the evacuation have really ended people will stop paying

attention. some countries have already— attention. some countries have already started an air corridor, an air bridge — already started an air corridor, an air bridge of— already started an air corridor, an air bridge of age. the uae has for example — air bridge of age. the uae has for example already announced it will send seven flights with medical aid and humanitarian assistance and said they will— and humanitarian assistance and said they will continue in their other regional— they will continue in their other regional countries. they are saying they will— regional countries. they are saying they will continue with humanitarian aid until— they will continue with humanitarian aid until there is a clear international position. polly, a lot was talked _ international position. polly, a lot was talked about _ international position. polly, a lot was talked about hopes _ international position. polly, a lot was talked about hopes of - international position. polly, a lot was talked about hopes of a - was talked about hopes of a different type of taliban. we have seen journalists beating up different type of taliban. we have seenjournalists beating up for trying to report about these peaceful protests, where women have bravely gone onto the streets to say, what about us and our position in society? how realistic is it, though, attach good governance, human rights principles central to the taliban receiving help from the international community? fries. international community? yes, goodness. _ international community? yes, goodness, aren't _ international community? yes, goodness, aren't those - international community? 13:3 goodness, aren't those women astoundingly brave? you look at them with such admiration, but they will be intimidated and sent home. for the time being, we don't really know

and i think the evidence from the reporters on the ground is that the taliban itself isn't one thing. there are those who want to be taliban... more moderate and there are quite a lot of people who have just been fighters all their life and have very sort of primitive views, really, about revenge and and also a very austere and puritanical kind of government. certainly no women visible. so we don't know. but what really matters at this moment is that we don't let there be a humanitarian catastrophe. if there was a mighty famine now, it would be very hard to heal anything in afghanistan or to, you know, try to help the people there, to whom we do have a strong moral obligation. i think that in britain one of the things we can offer is some of their experience of making peace in northern ireland, where you have entirely opposed groups and bringing

them round the table and eventually coming to some kind of power—sharing agreement. some kind of modus vivendi. it would be satisfactory, it won't be everything we would want, butjust about enough so that they can get the aid, they can have they can get the aid, they can have the money released. there will be some reckoning of that, you know, a more widely acknowledged, broad—based government, notjust a taliban government. i think that is within the realms of possibility, but only if we act very fast help now. if we are vengeful and allow a terrible famine to happen, they will be no inference less, it will be too late. i be no inference less, it will be too late. ., �* ~' , late. i don't think it is in the taliban's — late. i don't think it is in the taliban's interest _ late. i don't think it is in the taliban's interest to - late. i don't think it is in the taliban's interest to have i late. i don't think it is in the taliban's interest to have a l late. i don't think it is in the - taliban's interest to have a famine or a massive — taliban's interest to have a famine or a massive food _ taliban's interest to have a famine or a massive food shortage. - taliban's interest to have a famine or a massive food shortage. they. or a massive food shortage. they want _ or a massive food shortage. they want to— or a massive food shortage. they want to be — or a massive food shortage. they want to be seen— or a massive food shortage. they want to be seen as _ or a massive food shortage. they want to be seen as confident - or a massive food shortage. they want to be seen as confident and| want to be seen as confident and competent— want to be seen as confident and competent government - want to be seen as confident and competent government and - want to be seen as confident and competent government and at i want to be seen as confident and. competent government and at the want to be seen as confident and - competent government and at the top level, _ competent government and at the top level. as _ competent government and at the top level. as our— competent government and at the top level, as our colleague _ competent government and at the top level, as our colleague lyse _ competent government and at the top level, as our colleague lyse doucet. level, as our colleague lyse doucet put it. _ level, as our colleague lyse doucet put it. they— level, as our colleague lyse doucet put it. they want _ level, as our colleague lyse doucet put it, they want to _ level, as our colleague lyse doucet put it, they want to move - level, as our colleague lyse doucet put it, they want to move from - level, as our colleague lyse doucetl put it, they want to move from guns to government _ put it, they want to move from guns to government. they _ put it, they want to move from guns to government. they have _ put it, they want to move from guns

to government. they have some - to government. they have some sources — to government. they have some sources of— to government. they have some sources of revenue, _ to government. they have some sources of revenue, obviously. to government. they have some - sources of revenue, obviously opium trader _ sources of revenue, obviously opium trade. potentially— sources of revenue, obviously opium trade, potentially selling _ sources of revenue, obviously opium trade, potentially selling mining - trade, potentially selling mining rights _ trade, potentially selling mining rights to— trade, potentially selling mining rights to china _ trade, potentially selling mining rights to china and _ trade, potentially selling mining rights to china and some - trade, potentially selling mining rights to china and some of- trade, potentially selling mining rights to china and some of thatl trade, potentially selling mining - rights to china and some of that has been _ rights to china and some of that has been done _ rights to china and some of that has been done in — rights to china and some of that has been done in the _ rights to china and some of that has been done in the past. _ rights to china and some of that has been done in the past. that - rights to china and some of that has been done in the past. that was - been done in the past. that was enough — been done in the past. that was enough to— been done in the past. that was enough to run— been done in the past. that was enough to run an _ been done in the past. that was enough to run an insurgency, i enough to run an insurgency, possibly _ enough to run an insurgency, possibly. it _ enough to run an insurgency, possibly. it is _ enough to run an insurgency, possibly. it is certainly - enough to run an insurgency, possibly. it is certainly not i enough to run an insurgency, - possibly. it is certainly not enough to run _ possibly. it is certainly not enough to run a _ possibly. it is certainly not enough to run a government. _ possibly. it is certainly not enough to run a government. but- possibly. it is certainly not enough to run a government. but the - possibly. it is certainly not enough to run a government. but the idea| to run a government. but the idea that i_ to run a government. but the idea that i think— to run a government. but the idea that i think the _ to run a government. but the idea that i think the taliban _ to run a government. but the idea that i think the taliban might - to run a government. but the idea that i think the taliban might be l that i think the taliban might be very sympathetic— that i think the taliban might be very sympathetic to _ that i think the taliban might be very sympathetic to the - that i think the taliban might be very sympathetic to the idea - that i think the taliban might be very sympathetic to the idea of. that i think the taliban might be| very sympathetic to the idea of a multi—international_ very sympathetic to the idea of a l multi—international humanitarian assistance — multi—international humanitarian assistance programme _ multi—international humanitarian assistance programme because i multi—international humanitarian . assistance programme because they multi—international humanitarian - assistance programme because they do not want _ assistance programme because they do not want to— assistance programme because they do not want to be — assistance programme because they do not want to be seen _ assistance programme because they do not want to be seen to _ assistance programme because they do not want to be seen to be _ assistance programme because they do not want to be seen to be running - assistance programme because they do not want to be seen to be running a - not want to be seen to be running a government— not want to be seen to be running a government that _ not want to be seen to be running a government that is _ not want to be seen to be running a government that is failing _ government that is failing catastrophically_ government that is failing catastrophically to- government that is failing catastrophically to the - government that is failing - catastrophically to the detriment of his own _ catastrophically to the detriment of his own people _ catastrophically to the detriment of his own peeple-_ catastrophically to the detriment of his own people. immediately as soon as the taliban — his own people. immediately as soon as the taliban took _ his own people. immediately as soon as the taliban took over, _ his own people. immediately as soon as the taliban took over, it _ his own people. immediately as soon as the taliban took over, it was - as the taliban took over, it was pointed out by a load of commentators that china and russia see opportunity in afghanistan? there are huge mineral resources, bil there are huge mineral resources, big marble — there are huge mineral resources, big marble deposits, _ there are huge mineral resources, big marble deposits, there - there are huge mineral resources, big marble deposits, there will- there are huge mineral resources, big marble deposits, there will be| big marble deposits, there will be no shortage — big marble deposits, there will be no shortage of— big marble deposits, there will be no shortage of people _ big marble deposits, there will be no shortage of people queueing . big marble deposits, there will bel no shortage of people queueing up big marble deposits, there will be - no shortage of people queueing up to examine _ no shortage of people queueing up to examine the — no shortage of people queueing up to examine the opportunities _ no shortage of people queueing up to examine the opportunities there. - no shortage of people queueing up to examine the opportunities there. i. examine the opportunities there. i think— examine the opportunities there. i think one — examine the opportunities there. i think one at — examine the opportunities there. i think one at the _ examine the opportunities there. i think one at the other— examine the opportunities there. i think one at the other problems i think one at the other problems ism _ think one at the other problems ism i_ think one at the other problems ism i am — think one at the other problems ism i am no— think one at the other problems is... i am no afghan _ think one at the other problems is... i am no afghan expert, i think one at the other problems i is... i am no afghan expert, believe me, is... i am no afghan expert, believe me. but— is... i am no afghan expert, believe me. but one — is... i am no afghan expert, believe me. but one of— is... i am no afghan expert, believe me, but one of the _ is... i am no afghan expert, believe me, but one of the things— is... i am no afghan expert, believe me, but one of the things we - is... i am no afghan expert, believe me, but one of the things we have i me, but one of the things we have seen _ me, but one of the things we have seen in _ me, but one of the things we have seen in terms _ me, but one of the things we have seen in terms of— me, but one of the things we have seen in terms of the _ me, but one of the things we have seen in terms of the conflicts i me, but one of the things we have seen in terms of the conflicts we l seen in terms of the conflicts we have _ seen in terms of the conflicts we have seen— seen in terms of the conflicts we have seen over— seen in terms of the conflicts we have seen over the _ seen in terms of the conflicts we have seen over the past - seen in terms of the conflicts we have seen over the past few- seen in terms of the conflicts we i have seen over the past few decades, the idea _ have seen over the past few decades, the idea of— have seen over the past few decades, the idea of a — have seen over the past few decades, the idea of a centralised _ have seen over the past few decades, the idea of a centralised governmentl the idea of a centralised government that knows— the idea of a centralised government that knows exactly— the idea of a centralised government that knows exactly which _ the idea of a centralised government that knows exactly which bits, - the idea of a centralised government that knows exactly which bits, whatl that knows exactly which bits, what they are _ that knows exactly which bits, what they are doing _ that knows exactly which bits, what they are doing in— that knows exactly which bits, what they are doing in the _ that knows exactly which bits, what they are doing in the extremities... some _

they are doing in the extremities... some people — they are doing in the extremities... some people have _ they are doing in the extremities... some people have compared - they are doing in the extremities... some people have compared it i they are doing in the extremities... some people have compared it to. they are doing in the extremities... some people have compared it to aj some people have compared it to a kind of— some people have compared it to a kind of narco— some people have compared it to a kind of narco gangster _ some people have compared it to a kind of narco gangster state, - some people have compared it to a kind of narco gangster state, whati kind of narco gangster state, what have you. — kind of narco gangster state, what have you. and _ kind of narco gangster state, what have you, and certainly _ kind of narco gangster state, what have you, and certainly it - kind of narco gangster state, what have you, and certainly it is- have you, and certainly it is different _ have you, and certainly it is different regional— have you, and certainly it is different regional people i have you, and certainly it is. different regional people who have you, and certainly it is- different regional people who often have different _ different regional people who often have different agendas _ different regional people who often have different agendas to - different regional people who often have different agendas to anyone . have different agendas to anyone talking _ have different agendas to anyone talking to — have different agendas to anyone talking to the _ have different agendas to anyone talking to the international- have different agendas to anyone talking to the international press| talking to the international press at the _ talking to the international press at the centre _ talking to the international press at the centre. so _ talking to the international press at the centre. so the _ talking to the international press at the centre. so the idea - talking to the international press at the centre. so the idea that i talking to the international press i at the centre. so the idea that you can reason— at the centre. so the idea that you can reason with _ at the centre. so the idea that you can reason with one _ at the centre. so the idea that you can reason with one entity- at the centre. so the idea that you can reason with one entity that i at the centre. so the idea that youl can reason with one entity that has control— can reason with one entity that has control over — can reason with one entity that has control over the _ can reason with one entity that has control over the whole _ can reason with one entity that has control over the whole country i i control over the whole country i think— control over the whole country i think is— control over the whole country i think is a — control over the whole country i think is a bit— control over the whole country i think is a bit naive. _ control over the whole country i think is a bit naive.— think is a bit naive. mina al-oraibi. _ think is a bit naive. mina al-oraibi, how- think is a bit naive. mina| al-oraibi, how concerned think is a bit naive. mina - al-oraibi, how concerned are... think is a bit naive. mina _ al-oraibi, how concerned are... can i 'ust sa al-oraibi, how concerned are... can liust say this _ al—oraibi, how concerned are... cari ijust say this one quick thought? i just say this one quick thought? you said the marco gangster state we could deal with that very quickly, but if you had a simple non—prohibition attitude towards... in the west, you could cut that immediately... inaudible we are struggling to hear you a little bit. i am hoping the picture and sound were settled down, so we can hear from you and sound were settled down, so we can hearfrom you again in a moment. mina al—oraibi, in terms of the concerns about proxy conflicts within afghanistan, regional powers, neighbours looking into the country and thinking that they could use the chaos to their own advantage, how

big a concern is that? it is chaos to their own advantage, how big a concern is that?— big a concern is that? it is a very big a concern is that? it is a very big concern. _ big a concern is that? it is a very big concern, but _ big a concern is that? it is a very big concern, but i _ big a concern is that? it is a very big concern, but ijust _ big a concern is that? it is a very big concern, but i just want i big a concern is that? it is a very big concern, but i just want to i big a concern is that? it is a very| big concern, but ijust want to go back— big concern, but ijust want to go back to _ big concern, but ijust want to go back to the — big concern, but ijust want to go back to the point about russia and china _ back to the point about russia and china. russia and china decided to keep— china. russia and china decided to keep their— china. russia and china decided to keep their embassies open. russia and china — keep their embassies open. russia and china have already continued talks— and china have already continued talks with — and china have already continued talks with the taliban, but so has the united states in terms of continuing talks with the taliban. they— continuing talks with the taliban. they were — continuing talks with the taliban. they were the ones, let's not forget, — they were the ones, let's not forget, who started talks with the taliban _ forget, who started talks with the taliban without any of these assumptions about human rights are what sort _ assumptions about human rights are what sort of representation, so i'm afraid _ what sort of representation, so i'm afraid it _ what sort of representation, so i'm afraid it is — what sort of representation, so i'm afraid it is a — what sort of representation, so i'm afraid it is a little late to be talking _ afraid it is a little late to be talking about some of these points. the british— talking about some of these points. the british government and other governments could have chosen from western _ governments could have chosen from western europe and of course the us, could have _ western europe and of course the us, could have chosen to at least have kept some — could have chosen to at least have kept some diplomatic representation in kabul~ _ kept some diplomatic representation in kabul. instead they all left and so if the — in kabul. instead they all left and so if the chinese and russians are going _ so if the chinese and russians are going to _ so if the chinese and russians are going to take advantage of that, i really— going to take advantage of that, i really think we have to pause before we blame _ really think we have to pause before we blame them, where on the contrary we blame them, where on the contrary we have _ we blame them, where on the contrary we have countries like the united states _ we have countries like the united states thatjust decided we have countries like the united states that just decided it was time to leave, _ states that just decided it was time to leave, regardless of what the consequences would be on the ground.

as for— consequences would be on the ground. as for the _ consequences would be on the ground. as for the regional powers, of course — as for the regional powers, of course not _ as for the regional powers, of course not only is everyone going to seek their— course not only is everyone going to seek their own interest, but they are also— seek their own interest, but they are also concerned about security development is on the ground. there are reports— development is on the ground. there are reports already of different foreign — are reports already of different foreign fighters possibly heading towards afghanistan, but at the same time those _ towards afghanistan, but at the same time those regional entities who are already— time those regional entities who are already wreaking havoc inside afghanistan for the past two decades and even _ afghanistan for the past two decades and even before that, so it is not something — and even before that, so it is not something new, so to speak. what is new is, _ something new, so to speak. what is new is, as _ something new, so to speak. what is new is, as was saying, is the taliban— new is, as was saying, is the taliban are _ new is, as was saying, is the taliban are going to try to prove they— taliban are going to try to prove they can — taliban are going to try to prove they can govern and they are going to have _ they can govern and they are going to have a _ they can govern and they are going to have a very difficult time doing that _ to have a very difficult time doing that they— to have a very difficult time doing that. they could have shown a bit more _ that. they could have shown a bit more goodwill with the cabinet they uncovered. it seems that no, the cabinet _ uncovered. it seems that no, the cabinet is — uncovered. it seems that no, the cabinet is going to be filled with hardliners and people who don't really— hardliners and people who don't really seem to believe in power—sharing at this point, but also _ power—sharing at this point, but also because they feel they have one _ also because they feel they have one you — also because they feel they have one. you waive the united states conducted — one. you waive the united states conducted its patrol and its talks with the — conducted its patrol and its talks with the cabinet allowed them to have that — with the cabinet allowed them to have that sense of success, but also not really _ have that sense of success, but also not really feel that there is a need to negotiate, at least at this point — to negotiate, at least at this point so— to negotiate, at least at this

point. so again when we look at the aid issue _ point. so again when we look at the aid issue this is the time to say, local— aid issue this is the time to say, local entities on the ground, the regional, — local entities on the ground, the regional, domestic different governance, give them a bit more autonomy— governance, give them a bit more autonomy by having aid delivered there _ autonomy by having aid delivered there if— autonomy by having aid delivered there. if that is possible, that could — there. if that is possible, that could be — there. if that is possible, that could be a _ there. if that is possible, that could be a way to get back to some sort of— could be a way to get back to some sort of negotiation process, but also enable some of the local actors there _ also enable some of the local actors there and _ also enable some of the local actors there and give them a bit more agency~ — there and give them a bit more auen . ,, ., there and give them a bit more aten . ,, ., , , , agency. simon, very briefly, if the h would be _ agency. simon, very briefly, if the h would be assets _ agency. simon, very briefly, if the h would be assets doesn't - agency. simon, very briefly, if the h would be assets doesn't work, i agency. simon, very briefly, if the i h would be assets doesn't work, the americans are already talking about drone strikes if terrorism starts to flare up again?— drone strikes if terrorism starts to flare up again? that is the unknown cuestion. flare up again? that is the unknown question- the _ flare up again? that is the unknown question. the taliban _ flare up again? that is the unknown question. the taliban have - flare up again? that is the unknown question. the taliban have said i question. the taliban have said there _ question. the taliban have said there are — question. the taliban have said there are not _ question. the taliban have said there are not going _ question. the taliban have said there are not going to - question. the taliban have said there are not going to be - question. the taliban have said there are not going to be a i question. the taliban have said . there are not going to be a place, question. the taliban have said i there are not going to be a place, a tent and _ there are not going to be a place, a tent and which _ there are not going to be a place, a tent and which terrorist _ tent and which terrorist organisations— tent and which terrorist organisations can - tent and which terrorist l organisations can gather. tent and which terrorist _ organisations can gather. obviously the invasion— organisations can gather. obviously the invasion in— organisations can gather. obviously the invasion in the _ organisations can gather. obviously the invasion in the first _ organisations can gather. obviously the invasion in the first place - organisations can gather. obviously the invasion in the first place was . the invasion in the first place was because — the invasion in the first place was because al-qaeda _ the invasion in the first place was because al-qaeda found - the invasion in the first place was because al-qaeda found succourl the invasion in the first place was i because al-qaeda found succour and shelter— because al-qaeda found succour and shelter within— because al-qaeda found succour and shelter within taliban _ because al-qaeda found succour and shelter within taliban —controlled i shelter within taliban —controlled afghanistan _ shelter within taliban —controlled afghanistan. we _ shelter within taliban —controlled afghanistan. we just _ shelter within taliban —controlled afghanistan. we just don't - shelter within taliban —controlled afghanistan. we just don't know. j afghanistan. we just don't know. that is— afghanistan. we just don't know. that is all— afghanistan. we just don't know. that is all we _ afghanistan. we just don't know. that is all we have _ afghanistan. we just don't know. that is all we have time - afghanistan. we just don't know. that is all we have time for- afghanistan. we just don't know. that is all we have time for this. that is all we have time for this week. our thanks to polly toynbee, mina al—oraibi and simonjack. do join us again next week same time same place. it will be me again, i think. thank you for watching and goodbye.

good evening. with low pressure sitting across the uk today, it has been a showery picture. there have been sunny spells between the showers, as we saw in suffolk earlier in the day, but we've also seen a lot of lively showers through the second half of the afternoon across the eastern half of england. the weekend, though, will bring fewer showers for many of us with some sunny spells, but it'll feel fresher. and the reason? the low pressure that's been bringing those showers yesterday and today that's sitting across us is moving out into the north sea, so bringing wet and windy weather to scandinavia. we've still got the remnants of that weather front sitting in the north, but the other change i talked about is the wind direction.

so, as we go around to the north and the northwest, it's a fresher feel. you can see the heat gradually ebbing away through the day on saturday. so, still a few thunderstorms around this evening — northeast parts of england, lincolnshire, east anglia, possibly one or two in northern ireland — but they fade away as we go through the night. the wet areas really dominated by the area of low pressure and its trailing weather front across north scotland. notjust tonight but tomorrow as well, we could see some very significant rainfall totals building up here. it's one to watch. for most of us as showers fade away, it's misty and grey and quite warm again. we haven't lost that humidity yet. it's quite a warm start to the day, but also quite grey and misty, particularly over the hills in north and west areas, but there could be some fog just about anywhere. it does take a little longer to kick in this time of year. once it does so, some brighter spells coming through and very few showers for england and wales. still a scattering for northern ireland, but not as many as today. south and eastern scotland faring quite well with some drier weather, but it is really looking quite wet across northern scotland. temperatures are, as i say, starting to drop away, a fresher feel and a generally quite

fairly brisk breeze blowing. that weather front weekends as it heads south on sunday, but there is the fly in the ointment — this area of low pressure and how far north and east it will spread its influence, spread its rains by the time we get to sunday. cloudier for the eastern side of england and scotland on that weakening weather front, but drier further north and brighter. it'll be a little bit fresher. fewer showers for northern ireland, we feel, and further east across england as well, some drier weather. and it could be that that weather front gets stuck across western areas, so even by monday, most of the rain is in the west. as i say, there's quite a lot next area of low pressure at this stage. so, as ever, there's more on the website, including the warnings, and we'll keep you up—to—date.

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