this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. here in florida. where are my guest is 98 —year—old ben, he is the last surviving prosecutor at the nuremberg nazi trials. he helped liberate the death camps of europe while serving in the us army, does he believe that the nuremberg trials have made

genocide and other crimes against humanity most likely to be committed in the world today? ben ferencz, welcome to hardtalk. you were born in 1920 in transylvania and you moved to united states and when you are little baby. you really epitomise the american dream, the rags to riches story and it was discovered that you are highly intelligent and put on the fast track to harvard law school. ~ . ~ u, school. we arrived in america and my parents _

school. we arrived in america and my parents are _ school. we arrived in america and my parents are young - and my parents are young immigrants, fleeing persecution and poverty, no money, no skills, no language. and lucky to have some friendly new yorker offer us, my father who had been trained as a shoemaker but needed new boots, but there are no cowboys. the owner of the building and given the opportunity to sleep in the cellar and my father would be the janitor and that's where we began and that's where my memory begins and high crime density area known for good reason as hells kitchen. fix, density area known for good reason as hells kitchen. a lot of crime _ reason as hells kitchen. a lot of crime there, _ reason as hells kitchen. a lot of crime there, is _ reason as hells kitchen. a lot of crime there, is that - reason as hells kitchen. a lot of crime there, is that what l of crime there, is that what excited your interest in law? it made me not want to be on the criminal side. there was crime all around. and i made up my mind early that i didn't want to be a cowboy and i did not want to be a fireman, did not want to be a fireman, did not want to be a crook either.

that left me to go to the law and ifocused on that that left me to go to the law and i focused on that ever since. �* , ., and i focused on that ever since. �* ., ., ., since. after you graduated from harvard law _ since. after you graduated from harvard law school _ since. after you graduated from harvard law school in _ since. after you graduated from harvard law school in 1943, - since. after you graduated from harvard law school in 1943, you join the military and prepared for the invasion of france. what are your key recollections of that time? i what are your key recollections of that time?— of that time? i enlisted wherever _ of that time? i enlisted wherever he _ of that time? i enlisted wherever he could - of that time? i enlisted wherever he could get| of that time? i enlisted . wherever he could get into of that time? i enlisted - wherever he could get into the army. and also private, the low strength to get assigned to be in the artillery battalion. in that capacity, we landed on the beaches of normandy. france was occupied by the germans and the only way to get forward was to defeat the germans. and at the tip of england, 0maha beach, which was still, had been cleared by the time, there been

many soldiers still lying at the sea face down there are still many vehicles in the water and at the push on from there, enter france and defeat them, with the artillery all them, with the artillery all the way. many battles on the way and it was only when we got into the german occupied areas that we began to encounter possible war crimes.- possible war crimes. nazi atrocities _ possible war crimes. nazi atrocities were _ possible war crimes. nazi atrocities were uncovered and you transferred to gather evidence of nazi brutality and apprehend the war criminals. you entered the death camps, and you describe how you saw scenes from hell. just describe to us stop till i can describe it to you quite vividly because

my recollection is very firm in my recollection is very firm in my mind. br; my recollection is very firm in my mind-— my mind. by the same time, ou'll my mind. by the same time, you'll never _ my mind. by the same time, you'll never understand - my mind. by the same time, you'll never understand what my mind. by the same time, l you'll never understand what it was like because the rational human mind cannot quite grasp it. coming into the camp, for example, dead bodies lying all around the ground or you can tell the debtor -if — if they're dead or alive, part of their work uniform where they triangle indicated that they were jewish or homosexual or communist or whatever. and everyone is running in different areas. they tried to run out and is seen like a pile of rubbish the size of this room and in it are inmates grovelling like rats for a bite of food and just spitting out garbage and stick

it into their mouths. the smell of the file flesh burning, crematory atoms which has stacks of human bodies looking like bones stacked one on top of the other while theyjust shovelled them into the crematorium and turned them into ashes in the fat was used for making soap and ashes used for making soap and ashes used for fertiliser. for making soap and ashes used forfertiliser. the for making soap and ashes used for fertiliser. the ss for making soap and ashes used forfertiliser. the ss is running out, occasionally getting caught and beaten to death by the inmates were still able to do anything about it. and when i wrote somewhere that i had peered into hell, ithink hell would be paradise compared to what i saw. the hell would be paradise compared to what i saw.— to what i saw. the memories, there still— to what i saw. the memories, there still very _ to what i saw. the memories, there still very vivid _ to what i saw. the memories, there still very vivid for - to what i saw. the memories, there still very vivid for you? | there still very vivid for you? yes, do not like to talk about the most does have controlling my own emotions. in the most does have controlling my own emotions.— my own emotions. in 1945, he left the us _ my own emotions. in 1945, he left the us army _ my own emotions. in 1945, he left the us army can - my own emotions. in 1945, he left the us army can be - left the us army can be returned to new york and prepared to practise law but

you are recruited for the nuremberg war crimes trial. the tribunal against the likes of leading nazis were already in progress. what was your reaction when you are asked to be part of that process?- be part of that process? when the war was — be part of that process? when the war was over. _ be part of that process? when the war was over. i _ be part of that process? when the war was over. i came - be part of that process? when the war was over. i came backj the war was over. i came back along with 10,000,000 other soldiers looking for a job and i graduated from harvard law school passed the bar, but i had no clients of any kind and i was pleased to get it telegraphed from the pentagon inviting me to come to the pentagon and they wanted to talk to me. and they said dear sir, they never called me sir before, they wanted me to go back to germany to help with the war crime trials. i had done that during the war days

and the last several months of the war, portions of germany were occupied and we ran into examples of crimes of all kinds. the most obvious ones were the allied flyer cases very little is known about that. flyers have been shot down and german held territory and were beaten to death by the german mob. and that was part of ourfirst war crimes german mob. and that was part of our first war crimes cases. so i had that kind of experience is when i left the army. and i took the back to germany when i agreed with some hesitation to go back to germany and help with trials which were to follow the international military tribunal.— international military tribunal. , , ., tribunal. why did you hesitate? it's a horrible _ tribunal. why did you hesitate? it's a horrible experience - tribunal. why did you hesitate? it's a horrible experience for i it's a horrible experience for someone. germany was associated with atrocity and terrible crimes in my mind, i did not want to go back to germany.

this was horrible glorified. there was nothing heroic about it at all. it shows how human beings can be debased and time of war. ,, , ., ., beings can be debased and time of war. ,, ,, ., . ,, ., of war. see you did go back to germany _ of war. see you did go back to germany and _ of war. see you did go back to germany and discovered - of war. see you did go back to germany and discovered nazi | germany and discovered nazi offices in archives and tried to find evidence of the nazi atrocities by german doctors, officers, lawyers, judges and generals. it was quite all pervasive, the people were involved in the atrocities. the united states _ involved in the atrocities. tue: united states particularly involved in the atrocities. tte: united states particularly felt the international military tribunal trial was just a camera shot of tribunal trial wasjust a camera shot of a small sample and to really understand how a civilised country like germany could commit and tolerate the type of atrocities that were committed. you should understand the position that the doctors who performed the experiments, the lawyers and judges who perverted the law,

the murderers who did the actual killings. the industrialists who were working people to death. all of these were specific groups in the united states said let us take a sampling from each of these groups to help us understand this stop till i went to a team of 50 people, scoured through all the archives, miles of nazi documents together enough evidence to cover the broad spectrum of german society which was really, basically responsible for all the crimes. you described in gathering witness testimonies, you resorted to duress, learning of villagers and threatened to shoot them if they lied and such methods now would amount to witness harassment of the most extreme order. perhaps it would. most extreme order. perhaps it would- itut _ most extreme order. perhaps it would. but it's _ most extreme order. perhaps it would. but it's only _ most extreme order. perhaps it would. but it's only because - would. but it's only because the people who make the allegations do not understand

words about. if i bring in a room of 20 people and this is an actual case and i lined them up an actual case and i lined them up and say i want you all to write out exactly what happened, what your role was what others did, anyone who lies will be shot. 0h, what others did, anyone who lies will be shot. oh, how can you do thing like that, you're threatening them with torture is not what i might want to tell them? anyone who lies will get their patty cake tonight? please be honest? please confess that you're a murder? please do that? i don't want to threaten you with a? what you're talking about? there is a war going on? they will kill you if they could. they were killing some of your buddies before. so, what am i going to do? i didn't shoot them, but i threatened them and that's the only weapon i had. and if there would be torture, then call me a torturer. would be torture, then call me a torturer-_ a torturer. you became the chief prosecutor _ a torturer. you became the chief prosecutor for - a torturer. you became the chief prosecutor for the - a torturer. you became the . chief prosecutor for the united states, in one case at nuremberg. and described by the

associated press news agency as the biggest murder trial in history and 22 nazi war criminals who were a part of these death squads, shooting more than a million people. most of them civilians. it was quite a responsibility for a young man, you're only 27 to take and the factors to take, i just want to show you this is you at the nuremberg. meeting the 'udae, you at the nuremberg. meeting the judge, superior _ you at the nuremberg. meeting the judge, superior court - you at the nuremberg. meeting the judge, superior court of- the judge, superior court of pennsylvania. these are the defendants. 22 defendants, each one in charge of mass murder. all of them pleaded not guilty no one showed any sign of remorse whatsoever. and i remember very well, what i saw. may it please, it is with sorrow and with hope that we here disclose murder of over a million innocent and

defenceless men women and children, vengeance is notable nor do we seek merely adjust the rent. we ask this court to affirm by international communal actions man's rights to live in peace and dignity regardless of his race or creed. the case will present is a plea of humanity to wall. they wrote the darkest page in human history. people were murdered because they didn't share their race, the colour and the ideology of their executioners. i thought it was horrible then i think it's horrible then i think it's horrible now. and i appealfor rule of law which would in future protect people from that type of atrocity. when you look at that picture there. 2? type of atrocity. when you look at that picture there.— at that picture there. 27 years of a . e. at that picture there. 27 years of age- chief— at that picture there. 27 years of age. chief prosecutor - at that picture there. 27 years of age. chief prosecutor in - at that picture there. 27 years|

of age. chief prosecutor in the nuremberg process. that of age. chief prosecutor in the nuremberg process.— of age. chief prosecutor in the nuremberg process. that was a accident. but _ nuremberg process. that was a accident. but in _ nuremberg process. that was a accident. but in my _ nuremberg process. that was a accident. but in my research i accident. but in my research is, thereby 50 of them in berlin, came upon the deliref reports of the special extermination squads of his job was to kill without pity or remorse, every single jewish man, remorse, every singlejewish man, woman or child that they could put their hands on. including any perceived opponent of the third reich, no trial had been planned. iflew down from burlington nuremberg to the man in charge and he said, we cannot put on this trial now, because all the lawyers already assigned in the trials already and process, i doubt if they will approve it and i said, i have here in my hand that mass murder on a scale never before seen in human history, you cannot let these guys go. he said can you do it in addition to you're the work was mike and i said sure andi work was mike and i said sure and i did. in a rest my case in two days. t5

and i did. in a rest my case in two days-_ two days. is that you want to prosecute the _ two days. is that you want to prosecute the officers - two days. is that you want to prosecute the officers you i prosecute the officers you are not as interested in the foot soldiers, he wanted to get the educated. soldiers, he wanted to get the educated-— educated. the extermination su uads, educated. the extermination squads. they _ educated. the extermination squads, they said _ educated. the extermination squads, they said action - squads, they said action groups. and 3,000 men, 3,000, all of whom are complicit mass murder and i selected the mall based on several factors and the evidence, you haven't got the evidence, you haven't got the prisoners i want a list of every member from the prisoners i want a list of every memberfrom all of the prisoners i want a list of every member from all of our intelligence sources directly to nuremberg. i went over the list and i picked those of the highest rank, the nazi party records that we captured in berlin. those are a doctor

degrees and those were generals, they had priority and from these, i picked out 22 —28 was. is that absurd? 0f from these, i picked out 22 —28 was. is that absurd? of course. they're only 22 in the company. so we have a selection of the sampling and that's all it is. about a dozen were given death sentences and four were actually executed. the others remained in prison but only for a few years and between the americans and german governments and they were released. so, in orderto success? released. so, in order to success?— released. so, in order to success? ., , ., success? the atmosphere had changed- _ success? the atmosphere had changed. before _ success? the atmosphere had changed. before the - success? the atmosphere had changed. before the war - success? the atmosphere had changed. before the war was l changed. before the war was over, in which they said, we have fought the wrong enemy, we should not been fighting the germans of the russians. well,

the war was on. americans are being killed in battle and the russians are being slaughtered. and the changing political scene, the conservative group was saying but we, why are we getting involved in this. this is crimes against the germans, the british are particularly keen about not executing some of the german generals that the british army wanted. so the political pressure was such that together with some feeling of, amnesty for humanitarian considerations, they stopped the trials, they release the people who were there and began to rehire people who knew about rockets and deputies who came to the united states, rocket science. ., to the united states, rocket science. . , , science. the trial the presided over as chief _ science. the trial the presided over as chief prosecutor - science. the trial the presided over as chief prosecutor was l over as chief prosecutor was hailed as a success like some others that at the time. they

can really be described is that if some of those who were found guilty were subsequently released. t guilty were subsequently released.— guilty were subsequently released. i was of course disappointed, _ released. i was of course disappointed, but - released. i was of course disappointed, but i - released. i was of course j disappointed, but i never anticipated or tried to do justice in a broad sense of holding every criminal accountable. it would've been a practical impossibility and so, i was careful in the selection of having a man in custody, having a high rank, having good education proof of his guilt, i had his report top secret to his commanders saying how many people were executed and exaggerated the body count and it's baloney. it is absolute baloney. there were of course, trying to kill them. but they did with such enthusiasm that they tried to brag about how many the killed. the they tried to brag about how many the killed. the lessons of

nuremberg. — many the killed. the lessons of nuremberg. you _ many the killed. the lessons of nuremberg, you said _ many the killed. the lessons of nuremberg, you said i - many the killed. the lessons of nuremberg, you said i learned | nuremberg, you said i learned that if we did not devote ourselves to developing effective world law, the same mentality that made the holocaust possible might one day destroy the entire human race. so, so many years later, in your 90th year and the look of the conflicts that have happened in recent times, what is your assessment have we made progress? we is your assessment have we made rouress? ~ ., ., is your assessment have we made rouress? . ., , ., ,, progress? we have made progress but we have _ progress? we have made progress but we have not _ progress? we have made progress but we have not learned _ progress? we have made progress but we have not learned the - but we have not learned the lesson of nuremberg. but let me emphasise the fact, i learned that war makes murderers. mass murderers and of otherwise decent people. and applies to all wars and all nationalities and i have seen it and all wars and all nationalities and i have seen itand in all wars and all nationalities and i have seen it and in all the wars, these are not wild animals wore out for blood, these are patriots who were trying to do their duty to protect either their religion

or their nationality or the economic security. these are the three major causes. we have not learned that you cannot kill an ideology with the gun. we still go at it with the same stupid approach of spending all of your assets of building weapons and more weapons to kill more people and depriving people of the things they need to eliminate the fears which they have in their life. a man was desperate because he has no job and has no money. and the money spent on weapons could be spent on limiting the cause of this discontent, he's not going to go out and kill people the way they do today. you were very instrumental— way they do today. you were very instrumental in - way they do today. you were very instrumental in the - very instrumental in the setting up of the international criminal court which was established by the statute in 1998. do you think that has really helped prevent crimes

against humanity, war crimes two do you think it is stop these crimes being committed with impunity? it these crimes being committed with impunity?— with impunity? it has helped, but not enough. _ with impunity? it has helped, but not enough. certainly, . with impunity? it has helped, | but not enough. certainly, the existence of laws prohibiting certain behaviour has some deterrent effect. but for centuries, eversince deterrent effect. but for centuries, ever since david and goliath in the head with a rock. do you think that has really helped prevent crimes against humanity, war crimes? do you think it's stopped these crimes being committed with impunity? it has helped, but not enough. certainly, the existence of laws prohibiting certain behaviour has some deterrent effect, but we have to bear in mind that, for centuries, we have glorified war—making. ever since david hit goliath in the head with a rock, we have glorified, the parades, the marching. no politician appears without his flags flying on all sides, and the bands going, and marching. and i was a soldier, and they gave me all the battle stars, and they gave me

all the decorations and all that stuff. we've got to reverse those thousands of years of practice, because the world has changed. we're not throwing rocks any more. we're going to kill everybody. from cyberspace we can cut off the electrical grid of any city on the planet. are you all crazy?! you're standing here watching it happen. students don't have money to pay tuition. the refugees have no homes to go to. the old people are dying, because they can't afford the medical care, and you're pouring billions of dollars every day into killing machines?! what in your long life and career have you learned about the nature of evil, and humid beings's capacity to commit the most unspeakable, horrific acts against theirfellow humid beings? well, i've learned simply, as it's very obvious, that people in very high places, people of good education and high rain, are quite competent at becoming mass murderers againstany group that they think threatens either their nationality or their religion or their economic circumstance. i have seen that. and these are not crimes committed by devils with horns, these are committed by educated, well—intentioned, patriotic people. but we have to change the parts and minds of people, so that they recognise it's not cowardice to be

ready to compromise, and to be conciliatory and be compassionate in your dealing with people who have other points of view. and i know that it takes courage not to be discouraged, but we have got to have that kind of courage, because it's a tough job, and it will take a long time, and we've got to begin in the cradle. so, this re—education of the human spirit and the humid mind on a worldwide basis is the task before us, and we are doing it. look at the emancipation, with those limitations, on the black man. look at the emancipation of women. look at the change, the sex approach, a mild can marrya mild, a mild can become a woman. a man can marrya man, a man can become a woman. all of these unthinkable things are realities today. 25 years ago they would have said, "you are out of your mind". and i say don't give up.

law is always better than war, and that is my firm conviction. no matter if you get a bad decision, law will always be better than war, which is murderous and terrible. and there are three ways of preventing it, which is one, never give up, two never give up, three... and then i hear the echo from the audience, "never give up". ben ferencz, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. it's been a pleasure. i hope that you all, don't enjoy it, but think about it, and act on it. thank you. hello there. after a couple of days of sunshine and shadows were announcing an area of low pressure moving in from the southwest is mainly affecting england and wales. that's bringing with it some heavy rain, it's also strengthening the winds too.

we start with some heavy rain across east anglia in the southeast but that will soon move away. for northern england it's going to be wet through much of the day. that rain continues to push its way into the southeast of scotland. for wales, midlands in southern england may well brighten up. to be some sunshine but also some showers. around the area of low pressure we've got really strong winds particularly where it is wet. that's going to make it feel cold. some of the wet weather could push into the northeast of scotland later but we are missing the worst of the weather across western scotland and northern ireland. with no more than one or two showers and some sunshine. the air of low pressure that's bringing the wet when the weather is slowly going to move away during wednesday. the next weather system is going to be pushing in from the atlantic. we start windy on wednesday for eastern england. the winds will use some of the cloud and showers move away, sunshine comes out for many errors then we look to the west, it's going to be clouding over through the day and then the afternoon summer rain pushing it mainly for northern ireland. head of that it should be

a little bit warmer. temperatures of 60 or 70 . temperatures of 16 or 17. but there is warmer weather on the way it later on in the week. were going to find a weather front parking itself across scotland and northern ireland. high pressure the uk that we are drawing in a south westerly wind. all the way from the tropics. that's going to bring us in higher temperature, probably bring a lot of cloud on thursday. and some rain and drizzle at times across scotland and northern ireland. some dampness here and there across western parts of england and wales with brighter skies for the east was or even and wales with brighter skies for the east. but even with a lot of cloud temperatures could reach 19 in belfast and newcastle. could make 20 or so because of the parts of england and wales. we still got that weather front hanging around a bit across the northern part of the uk. the position of the rain keeps chopping and changing. still the threat of some rain for northern ireland perhaps the first thing in northern ireland as the rain moves northward to southern and central scotland. these areas not quite as warm

but with lighter winds and more sunshine breaking through across england and wales it's going to be very mild, temperatures in 20 or 21 c.

welcome to newsday on the bbc, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: facebook apologises as its platforms suffered their biggest ever outage. they say service on the social network, whatsapp and the gram is —— instagram is resuming full access may take some time stopping assigned to an end of us tariffs on imports from china as the top trade negotiator accuses beijing of failing to live up to its promises. the donor to britain's governing party involved in a russian corruption scandal. and we report from haiti, where busloads of migrants deported

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