the killer plotted the attack on sir david for over a week — that's according to the mail on sunday. the observer leads with the commons speaker sir lindsay hoyle calling for a kinderform of political discourse following the death of sir david amess. in the wake of the attack, the home secretary priti patel is devising a police protection plan for mps. that makes the front page of the independent. the telegraph say the murder suspect, ali harbi, was not known to mi5 despite being referred to the counter—terrorism prevent programme. and the sunday times reports that sir david amess�* last act was to help children understand democracy. the paper details the final phone conversation he had, moments before his death. so let's begin... nigel, do you want to kick us up with this review, with the sunday times, this is about a telephone

call. , , ., , times, this is about a telephone call. , , ., call. yes, indeed. this was from richard hill— call. yes, indeed. this was from richard hill groves _ call. yes, indeed. this was from richard hill groves who - call. yes, indeed. this was from richard hill groves who talked l call. yes, indeed. this was from | richard hill groves who talked to david amis only a couple of minutes before he was attacked. it shows the kind of person that david was. what they were talking about was rigid with my daughter going to the youth parliament, and so david was taking them through all the various things that you could do that, he was his usual enthusiastic self, obviously didn't train there was anything wrong or that i would end as tragically as it was too. but the whole thing was that he showed how much david both loved parliament, wanted to be cash wanted pollard to be for everybody, was very keen for children taking part in the children's parliament. and it was one of the many causes that he championed. but it showed the kind

of guy he was, and so richard hill groves decided to share that with the sunday times. it is groves decided to share that with the sunday times.— the sunday times. it is a story of two fathers. _ the sunday times. it is a story of two fathers, and _ the sunday times. it is a story of two fathers, and a _ the sunday times. it is a story of two fathers, and a sense, - the sunday times. it is a story of two fathers, and a sense, 10, - two fathers, and a sense, jo, because also we hear about is to help grave and his daughter lola who came back in tears from school on finding out about the mp that she had been paired with, that he had been killed. there are also quotes from the father of the man suspected of killing him. from the father of the man suspected of killing him-— of killing him. yes, indeed, this is new. we of killing him. yes, indeed, this is new- we now _ of killing him. yes, indeed, this is new. we now know _ of killing him. yes, indeed, this is new. we now know the _ of killing him. yes, indeed, this is new. we now know the name - of killing him. yes, indeed, this is new. we now know the name ali l of killing him. yes, indeed, this is - new. we now know the name ali harbi, the young _ new. we now know the name ali harbi, the young man who is still being held in— the young man who is still being held in police custody, and his father, — held in police custody, and his father, who was apparently a former adviser_ father, who was apparently a former adviser to _ father, who was apparently a former adviser to the prime minister of somalia — adviser to the prime minister of somalia so he confirmed to the paper that his _ somalia so he confirmed to the paper that his son, — somalia so he confirmed to the paper that his son, who was born in britain, — that his son, who was born in britain, ali _ that his son, who was born in britain, ali harbi, was in custody. the father— britain, ali harbi, was in custody. the father says he is absolutely

shocked, — the father says he is absolutely shocked, obviously had no sense that his son _ shocked, obviously had no sense that his son was _ shocked, obviously had no sense that his son was planning such an absolute _ his son was planning such an absolute outrageous act. it is, as you say, — absolute outrageous act. it is, as you say. the _ absolute outrageous act. it is, as you say, the story of two fathers, and both— you say, the story of two fathers, and both with terrible consequences. add another family pictured on the front of the people, jo,, the four daughters at the recent weddings, it is a photo we have seen, we have seen versions of this photo on the paper today but it brings home the impact it has beyond the victim. well, yes, of course, what it reminds— well, yes, of course, what it reminds us— well, yes, of course, what it reminds us of and what we need to be reminded _ reminds us of and what we need to be reminded of— reminds us of and what we need to be reminded of his that mps are human beings, _ reminded of his that mps are human beings, they have families. i mean, it was— beings, they have families. i mean, it was only— beings, they have families. i mean, it was only a — beings, they have families. i mean, it was only a few days ago, the sad death— it was only a few days ago, the sad death of— it was only a few days ago, the sad death ofjames brokenshire from cancer, _ death ofjames brokenshire from cancer, you know, far too young, leaving _ cancer, you know, far too young, leaving behind a wife and children.

we forget — leaving behind a wife and children. we forget sometimes, and our anger and willingness to be outraged at the first— and willingness to be outraged at the first opportunity, that these are real— the first opportunity, that these are real people and they have real families, — are real people and they have real families, and all of those people within— families, and all of those people within their families have needs and concerns— within their families have needs and concerns and demands, which often -et concerns and demands, which often get pushed — concerns and demands, which often get pushed to the sidelines because of a get pushed to the sidelines because ofa demanding get pushed to the sidelines because of a demanding work of mps, and mp5 are, you— of a demanding work of mps, and mp5 are, you know, routinely attacked and routinely abused. but most people — and routinely abused. but most people go into politics to try and do good, — people go into politics to try and do good, and it is high time that there _ do good, and it is high time that there was— do good, and it is high time that there was a _ do good, and it is high time that there was a bit of respect, notjust from _ there was a bit of respect, notjust from the _ there was a bit of respect, notjust from the public but from mps across parties _ from the public but from mps across parties to— from the public but from mps across parties to each other.— parties to each other. nigel, is there something _ parties to each other. nigel, is there something that - parties to each other. nigel, is there something that you - parties to each other. nigel, is there something that you havei parties to each other. nigel, is - there something that you have heard a lot over the years from mps when we have talked to them? you officially have to go and have lunch with mps, have drinks, have conversations, till that stuff beyond politics, and i wonder if it is something you get a lot of people agonising over, complaining about, worrying about?—

worrying about? yes, it is difficult- _ worrying about? yes, it is difficult. |_ worrying about? yes, it is difficult. i think _ worrying about? yes, it is difficult. i think that - worrying about? yes, it is difficult. i think that it - worrying about? yes, it is difficult. i think that it is | difficult. i think that it is particularly difficult for the families. i looked up ? an awful lot of mps live away, so they are spending the week in london, going home for the weekend but not getting a great deal of time with their families. and of course it is a sort of 24/7job, that families. and of course it is a sort of 24/7 job, that politics is all consuming, it consumes me and i am married to a politician. but, as a result, look for lot of mps have marital difficulties and, yes, we do talk about things like that, do we do to about the pressures on the effects on them. and unfortunately i thinkjo is absolutely right that the public often don't appreciate just how much these people put into it, and i wouldn't have been in this business for 35 years if i hadn't

liked mps. i think they are, for the most part, basically good people trying to do basically good things. yeah, i mean it is a point definitely worth repeating. best move on, nigel, to the front of the telegraph. murder suspect, although not known to mi5, has certainly been plucked up a few years earlier to the prevent programme. yes. plucked up a few years earlier to the prevent programme. yes, the programme _ the prevent programme. yes, the programme has — the prevent programme. yes, the programme has been _ the prevent programme. yes, the programme has been a _ the prevent programme. yes, the| programme has been a remarkable express ? success. it is to stop youngsters getting radicalised before they get out of hand. but we are not sure in this case what it actually means. it could be a teacher who decides that he or she is worried about something in a people and then send them off to prevent. it is interesting, i think, but as far as the sunday telegraph sources go, that this man was not known to mi5. one of the problems

about the mi5 watchlist is it is about the mi5 watchlist is it is about 3000 strong, and there are an awful lot more people who might be a danger out there but the weather works is that that 3000 is pretty static. so, what ends up happening is when one gets put on the list, somebody else., and too often, it is that person who falls off who turns out to be the one who has committed an atrocity. and these are the problem is that something like mi5 faces, there are an awful lot of people out there who would do us harm and theyjust do not have the resources to keep tabs on them all. jo, there has been a lot of criticism over the years about the prevent programme, but how effective it is and this debate will surface again in the case of this young man, andindeed again in the case of this young man, and indeed it is correct that he was flagged up but yet as is the suggestion perhaps carried on having the kind of use or developing the kind of use, and we don't know that

for certain yet, that caused such concern. ~ , . for certain yet, that caused such concern. ~ , , , concern. well, yes, exactly. nigel sa s it concern. well, yes, exactly. nigel says it has — concern. well, yes, exactly. nigel says it has been _ concern. well, yes, exactly. nigel says it has been a _ concern. well, yes, exactly. nigel says it has been a success, - concern. well, yes, exactly. nigel says it has been a success, there | says it has been a success, there are others— says it has been a success, there are others who would have a completely different view. it is very hard — completely different view. it is very hard to know, obviously, whether— very hard to know, obviously, whether it _ very hard to know, obviously, whether it has managed to prevent radicalisation or what that there needs— radicalisation or what that there needs to — radicalisation or what that there needs to. and of course it is very much _ needs to. and of course it is very much focused on the sort of islamic fundamentalist style of terrorism or extremism, and yet we know perfectly well, sadly. _ extremism, and yet we know perfectly well, sadly, thatjo cox was murdered by a white supremacist, who probably— murdered by a white supremacist, who probably wouldn't have been flagged up probably wouldn't have been flagged up to prevent in 2016. so, there are criticisms— up to prevent in 2016. so, there are criticisms of— up to prevent in 2016. so, there are criticisms of it and they have been some _ criticisms of it and they have been some appalling blunders of children being _ some appalling blunders of children being referred to prevent for completely wrong reasons and some

pretty— completely wrong reasons and some pretty daft things that, paramedics, for instance, are asked to report if someone — for instance, are asked to report if someone has recently grown a beard. unless _ someone has recently grown a beard. unless you _ someone has recently grown a beard. unless you are seeing that person on a regular— unless you are seeing that person on a regular basis, you wouldn't know, would _ a regular basis, you wouldn't know, would you? — a regular basis, you wouldn't know, would you? like a lot of things, the pea ruckus— would you? like a lot of things, the pea ruckus in— would you? like a lot of things, the pea ruckus in the wording and stuff probably— pea ruckus in the wording and stuff probably isn't as good as it might be. probably isn't as good as it might be 7 _ probably isn't as good as it might be ? hack— probably isn't as good as it might be. ? back the bureaucracy. if it stocks— be. ? back the bureaucracy. if it stocks one — be. ? back the bureaucracy. if it stocks one attack, it is worth it but we — stocks one attack, it is worth it but we still don't know what the reason — but we still don't know what the reason was and why this man attacked or allegedly attacked david amess. there _ or allegedly attacked david amess. there is— or allegedly attacked david amess. there is some concern, some contend that, _ there is some concern, some contend that, you _ there is some concern, some contend that, you know, he might have been radicalised _ that, you know, he might have been radicalised during lockdown. spending more time online, that sort of thing. _ spending more time online, that sort of thing, there is a somali connection, our shh baby's quite prevalent— connection, our shh baby's quite prevalent in somalia and kenny. dash—macro al—shabab is quite prevalent— dash—macro al—shabab is quite prevalent in somalia and kenya. how

do ou prevalent in somalia and kenya. how do you prove — prevalent in somalia and kenya. how do you prove the _ prevalent in somalia and kenya. firm-n" do you prove the number of people who as a result of going through prevent have not been ruggedised or have been stayed away from bad things they might otherwise have done. dash—mac radicalised. i do done. dash-mac radicalised. ido think it has— done. dash-mac radicalised. ido think it has been _ done. dash-mac radicalised. ido think it has been a _ done. dash—mac radicalised. i if think it has been a success but if something doesn't happen, you can't prove that person was stopped from doing it because they went on the macro one programme. ? the prevent programme. i think the important thing is people watching out for young people who might be radicalised. and there is right—wing extremism, too. they have been many youngsters who have been drifting towards the right who prevent have helped, and if that was able to make stop them joining a right—wing organisation, possibly a bad one, that must be a good thing. but you are absolutely right, there is no

way of absolutely proving that it works because the results are only coming from the failures. jo. works because the results are only coming from the failures.- coming from the failures. jo, also on the front _ coming from the failures. jo, also on the front of— coming from the failures. jo, also on the front of the _ coming from the failures. jo, also on the front of the sunday - on the front of the sunday telegraph, dominic raab to revamp the human rights act. if he does, he will succeed where his successes has failed. . . ~ will succeed where his successes has failed. , , ~ ., , will succeed where his successes has failed. , , ~ .,, , failed. this feels like it has been auoin on failed. this feels like it has been going on forever. _ failed. this feels like it has been going on forever. let's _ failed. this feels like it has been going on forever. let's get - failed. this feels like it has been going on forever. let's get rid i failed. this feels like it has been going on forever. let's get rid ofj going on forever. let's get rid of the human — going on forever. let's get rid of the human rights act, which of course — the human rights act, which of course we — the human rights act, which of course we have been party too and has been _ course we have been party too and has been as— course we have been party too and has been as an existence for now. dominic— has been as an existence for now. dominic raab is no fan of the human rights— dominic raab is no fan of the human rights act _ dominic raab is no fan of the human rights act and i in fact said ? he said he — rights act and i in fact said ? he said he didn't believe in it several years— said he didn't believe in it several years ago. — said he didn't believe in it several years ago, this is an interview with the sunday— years ago, this is an interview with the sunday telegraph, pretty much saying _ the sunday telegraph, pretty much saying the same but he said at the tory party— saying the same but he said at the tory party conference and using the sort of— tory party conference and using the sort of usual rare examples of people — sort of usual rare examples of people not being able to be

deported, criminals, because they have a— deported, criminals, because they have a right to family life. but, you know. _ have a right to family life. but, you know, very conveniently glossing over the _ you know, very conveniently glossing over the fact that the human right act 7 _ over the fact that the human right act 7 the — over the fact that the human right act ? the human rights act has brought— act ? the human rights act has broughtjustice to many, many people. — broughtjustice to many, many people, including the hillsborough families, _ people, including the hillsborough families, the mid staffs hospital deaths — families, the mid staffs hospital deaths families, the women involved in the _ deaths families, the women involved in the so—called spy cop undercover police _ in the so—called spy cop undercover police controversy. and many other things _ police controversy. and many other thins. ., ., i. ., ,, police controversy. and many other thins. ., ., .,~ ., things. nigel, what do you make of this dia ? things. nigel, what do you make of this diary? well, _ things. nigel, what do you make of this diary? well, i _ things. nigel, what do you make of this diary? well, i mean, _ things. nigel, what do you make of this diary? well, i mean, i - things. nigel, what do you make of this diary? well, i mean, i thought| this diary? well, i mean, i thought that dominic _ this diary? well, i mean, i thought that dominic raab _ this diary? well, i mean, i thought that dominic raab at _ this diary? well, i mean, i thought that dominic raab at the _ this diary? well, i mean, i thought that dominic raab at the tory - that dominic raab at the tory conference when he first mentioned this was just playing to the gallery and clearly from this interview, he wasn't, he is actually determined to do something about the human rights act. and that worries me, the idea that our supreme court will then overrulejudgments

that our supreme court will then overrule judgments coming from the european court, not part of the eu, i hasten to add, but the european court of human rights. it is really quite disturbing. i like the idea of having a dispassionate board of judges from several nations deciding on whether human rights have been breached. it seems the fairest way of doing it. and that is why i don't like the idea that it is being brought back in—house. like the idea that it is being brought back in-house. nigel, we are auoin to brought back in-house. nigel, we are going to end — brought back in-house. nigel, we are going to end in _ brought back in-house. nigel, we are going to end in the _ brought back in-house. nigel, we are going to end in the rishi _ brought back in-house. nigel, we are going to end in the rishi sunak- going to end in the rishi sunak being worried about the economic damage and potential loss to foreign countries of investment that might otherwise come to the uk if we pursue our zero carbon ambition too vigorously. pursue our zero carbon ambition too viaorousl . ~ . pursue our zero carbon ambition too viaorousl . ~ , ., vigorously. well, these are the -roblem vigorously. well, these are the problem is _ vigorously. well, these are the problem is that _ vigorously. well, these are the problem is that the _ vigorously. well, these are the problem is that the prime - vigorously. well, these are the . problem is that the prime minister and chancellor is constantly face. the prime minister wants to spend, the chancellor wants to save money. however, if we are going to be serious about climate change, it is going to cost. and estimates range

from something like we need to spend another £50 billion to £200 billion on making britain a greener place. so, the question comes down to rishi sunak is the one to answer it, does he believe in stopping climate change, or doesn't he? jo phillips, this is about _ change, or doesn't he? jo phillips, this is about zero _ change, or doesn't he? jo phillips, this is about zero carbon, - change, or doesn't he? jo phillips, this is about zero carbon, we - change, or doesn't he? jo phillips, this is about zero carbon, we are l this is about zero carbon, we are being told that is no longer even ambitious enough.— being told that is no longer even ambitious enough. well, exactly, and i think this week, _ ambitious enough. well, exactly, and i think this week, possibly _ ambitious enough. well, exactly, and i think this week, possibly even - ambitious enough. well, exactly, and i think this week, possibly even on i i think this week, possibly even on monday, _ i think this week, possibly even on monday, that government is due to publish _ monday, that government is due to publish its — monday, that government is due to publish its net zero strategy which will be _ publish its net zero strategy which will be about heating, housing, they have been— will be about heating, housing, they have been a few licks and a few briefings — have been a few licks and a few briefings talking about £5,000 grants— briefings talking about £5,000 grants for people to get different boilers. — grants for people to get different boilers, that sort of thing. it remains _ boilers, that sort of thing. it remains to be seen with the government strategy is because it doesn't _ government strategy is because it doesn't have a coherent strategy on public— doesn't have a coherent strategy on public transport, particularly outside _ public transport, particularly outside of big conurbations, you know, _ outside of big conurbations, you know, public transport outside of

bil know, public transport outside of big cities— know, public transport outside of big cities is pretty nonexistent, extremely expensive, so many people are dependent on cars. it doesn't have _ are dependent on cars. it doesn't have a _ are dependent on cars. it doesn't have a strategy that is stopping building — have a strategy that is stopping building homes in a ? that are badly needed, _ building homes in a ? that are badly needed, for— building homes in a ? that are badly needed, for sure, but carrying on building — needed, for sure, but carrying on building on— needed, for sure, but carrying on building on flood plains, every new planning _ building on flood plains, every new planning application should be solar powered _ planning application should be solar powered. there is an awful lot of stuff _ powered. there is an awful lot of stuff that — powered. there is an awful lot of stuff that could have been done for many, _ stuff that could have been done for many, many years, that hadn't been. what _ many, many years, that hadn't been. what is _ many, many years, that hadn't been. what is interesting that this rift between — what is interesting that this rift between the treasury and number ten, which is _ between the treasury and number ten, which is not _ between the treasury and number ten, which is not an unfamiliar story to many— which is not an unfamiliar story to many of— which is not an unfamiliar story to many of us, — which is not an unfamiliar story to many of us, it is also the treasury is at _ many of us, it is also the treasury is at odds — many of us, it is also the treasury is at odds with the business secretary, and the analysis of the office _ secretary, and the analysis of the office for— secretary, and the analysis of the office for budget responsibility, who are — office for budget responsibility, who are basically saying, yes, it may— who are basically saying, yes, it may be — who are basically saying, yes, it may be short—term, cost and things, but the _ may be short—term, cost and things, but the long—term gain is far too important — but the long—term gain is far too important.j but the long-term gain is far too important-— but the long-term gain is far too imortant, ,, ,., important. j phillips, nigel nelson, we have to end _ important. j phillips, nigel nelson, we have to end it. _ important. j phillips, nigel nelson, we have to end it. go _ important. j phillips, nigel nelson, we have to end it. go and - important. j phillips, nigel nelson, we have to end it. go and get -

important. j phillips, nigel nelson, we have to end it. go and get your|