this is bbc news. we will have the headline at all the main news stories at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. what do we go to the cinema for? well, for many, the answer seems to be escape. what other explanation could there be for the seemingly endless supply of franchise—friendly superhero films? my guest today makes films based on an entirely

different premise. forfive decades, acclaimed british director mike leigh has told stories about believable characters facing very human dilemmas. they are painstakingly put together and not always easy to watch. is the demand for his kind of artistic vision dwindling? mike leigh, welcome to hardtalk. it's very nice to be here. it is great to have you here. we've all lived through difficult times thanks to the covid pandemic. in these of all times, do you buy into this notion that escapism is a key

motivation that gets people to the cinema? well, people want to escape, but people also want to be stimulated. so, i think the force notion is that there is either escapist material or there's boring stuff that isn't escapist and therefore nobody wants to watch it. it's rubbish, basically. my experience over a long time is that people want to be stimulated. no film, no piece of entertainment is any use if it's not actually entertaining, as far as i'm concerned, and i make serious films that are also comic as well. imean... comedy is very much part of what it's all about. alfred hitchcock once said that a woman who spends all day washing and cleaning and ironing does not want to go to the movies and watch a film about a woman who spends all day washing and cleaning and ironing,

and i flatly disagree with alfred hitchcock. my experience is that people, for a good deal of the time, if that's what you give them, are stimulated by being able to relate to what's happening in a movie. but obviously, there are serious movies and there are trivial movies. there's good movies and bad movies. but there's always a case for a wide and varied diet, but there's absolutely no question in many people's view and certainly my experience, that films that are at heart serious and hold the mirror up to life are worth it. do you think it's harder to do it that way, to look deep within "ordinary life" to find the entertaining, the important, the funny, than it is to actually spend loads of money creating imaginary worlds? well, that's a slightly complicated and mixed—up question. the question as to whether it's harder — i mean, look, anybody that creates anything,

and that includes movies, is an artist of some sort, and what you're motivated to do comes from how you respond to the material. my natural instinct — and has been all my life, if you like — is to look at the real world and want to make stories out of it. now, of course there are people whose starting point isn't actually the real world as such, and there's some great work made. i think it's all in their heads or all in their imagination or all in their sense of fantasy or whatever that might be. the question of the amount of money that's thrown at things is a whole different matter. we'll go to that later. money is important — mechanics of making films. yeah. let's stick with just the pure idea of what works, what makes for interesting content. i'm just very interested to know, in this time of pandemic when social distancing has made your sort of work very difficult,

whether you've looked at how we've all lived and thought, "well, there's some fascinating. "i really want to make a film about something related to the pandemic." well, that's quite a difficult one. certainly, as the pandemic has progressed in the last 18 months, getting on for two years, certainly what's happened to me — and this has happened to everybody — my perception of the ordinary world, of the ordinary business of how we live, has started to shift, because how we live has changed. so, it's inevitable that one starts to think about pandemic—age material. you can't help it, basically. so, yes, that is a very strong possibility. people watching and listening to this around the world, some will be very familiar with your work, and i think we're talking about 1k

feature films — if i'm not wrong, but then a host of other tv dramas and of course, the plays that you've written as well — some will know the work, some will not. would it be fair, if we are generalising, would it be fair to say you have always been fascinated by a close focus look at the social and economic class complexities of this country that you were born in and live in? yes, absolutely. and apart from a film i made in northern ireland, which is a different culture, and a play that i made in australia at the end of the �*80s, all my work has been set in this country. and it's my natural habitat, and yes, absolutely. would you characterise this as political? you take on very political subjects, but i wonder if you're fuelled by... well, to be blunt, anger. a sort of political

form of anger. well, here's the thing. i don't make films that say, "think this." polemics. i don't. all my films, even my last film. which was the only obviously political film. peterloo? which to those who don't know, the peterloo title comes from this democratic movement in the early 19th century, which in the northern city of manchester led to thousands of people who wanted a greater voice in british society gathering in a public place and then being moaned down by essentially, by police on horseback. by government forces. down by essentially, by police on horseback. by government forces. yeah. but even that film, political though it obviously is, in the end leaves

the audience with things to consider, all my films do this, to consider, to ponder, to reflect on, to discuss. and all of my other films are in that sense political with a small p. they are implicitly political because i make films that look at how we live our lives. but they're not polemics. you asked me whether my films are motivated by angen to some degree, you could say that, but it's also motivated by compassion and by care about how we live, how we relate, how we survive and all of those things. you get inside, literally get inside people's lives, inside their houses, the secrets that lie behind front doors and suburban streets, and that does raise the question of how do you know that these are truly authentic? you are the son of a doctor,

a professional in manchester. yes. you portray lives that are much poorer than a life you've ever known. can you be truly authentic in your portrayal? well, i mean, first of all, across the span of films i've made, some of them are indeed about working—class life, some of about what we call posh people. people are people and that's the key to it. as to my knowledge or understanding, i think if you're any good at the job of an artist, you can and should empathise with and understand everything and everybody, and i try and do that. but there is something of a preoccupation today in our culture with "lived experience." and the special authenticity that comes with having lived the life that you then present in your art, whatever form it may take. do you have that? two things. three things, if you like. one is, i live

in the real world. i don't live in a vacuum. the second is, yes, my dad was a doctor in the very working—class area of north manchester and salford. i went to local schools and i know that world very well. and yes, we were middle class people in a working class area. i've been around, etc. the third thing is, the work that we do, no matter what the subject matter — and that includes films like mr turner — about turner the painter. yeah. or indeed a film we made, the first period film i made called topsy—turvy about the theatrical world in the 1880s of gilbert and sullivan. whatever we do, including the films about working—class life, we spend a very long time researching and understanding and know what we're dealing with. i want to talk about the way

you work with actors. seems to me, more than other directors, yourfilms are driven by the degree to which your actors can make believable their characters. how deep they can immerse themselves in character. how do you get them to that level of immersion? the first thing to be said about that is that i work with what we would call character actors, which is to say people that don'tjust play themselves, actors who not motivated by ego or narcissism. not hollywood stars? that's also true. no disrespect to all hollywood stars. but british character actors who really are good at, brilliant at, want to play and portray real people out there in the street. are you saying that the star names, the hollywood stars, aren't capable? no, i didn't say that. that's why i immediately, when

you introduced the subject, i put a slight motivation on it. i'm not really bothered about criticising... i don't want to criticise, i just wonder when actors reach that level, and maybe it's something to do with looks the degree they become a brand, and makes it impossible for them to do the sort of work you want. to some degree, that's true, but i would say that there are hollywood stars that are great character after his. i'm not in the business within one working with american hollywood stars because we have an incredible resource of brilliant british actors. but in this style of yours where you gather the core group together for weeks and weeks of rehearsals —— months of rehearsals, and without...

a plo,t you as a team work in the beginning, you don't have a script, a plot you as a team work through it over these many months. are there some actors who you take on who just aren't suitable? very very seldom. it happened a tiny handful of times over a large number of projects over decades. it's very rare. it's partly because i am rigorous and how i set out. sound kind of scary. well, people that do it and are good at it love it, and the more they love it, the better they are at it. but that's true of many skills.

there are some fantastic actors because there are actors who are fantastically good at being real and a heightened way. but doesn't always need to be actors? there are some directors that draw people from you talk about real life, but who have no acting experience at all because they want that extra level of authenticity. that's arriving by a different route. i work best with actual professional actors, who understand the processes of acting. because there's more to it than just being real in the moment and the drama. doing all sorts of work so when you get to that moment, it really is more than rock—solid. it's complicated, and from my sort of work, it demands sophisticated professional actors. i don't think there is any other director who works quite like you do, and it's worked.

you've won acclaim and awards all over the world, but particularly in europe. you've won baftas in the united kingdom, and yet it still seems you feel very much like an outsider in the film industry, and i'm wondering why after all that. to some degree, the notion that i'm an outsider in the film industry is more to do with whatjournalists have said. i mean, i am an outsider in the sense that... anybody with the money backing a film by me is more desperately threatening prospect than when you see a script and know where the cast is. there's a level of trust you're demanding. you are saying "give me a few million pounds, but i'm not going to tell you about my films." absolutely, and over the years, that's what happened.

only one of two things has happened. either they said go for it, here's the money, or they've told us to get lost. i don't wish to be rude, but what i appear to see right now is that more of the money men and women in the film business are telling you to get lost. correct. all right. good question. i'm here to ask them, you're here answer. i don't know. maybe someone should phone and. i don't mean to be brutal, is it because for example your last film, which i know proud of, it had a big cast. it cost the best part of 18 million us dollars and it took the box office less than 2 million. yes, that may have something to do with it, and that's the price we pay.

to be honest, i think it's more about the climate, the current climate, but i don't know. i would prefer to pass on that one. when you say the climate, i'm not entirely sure what you mean. in the film industry. there's a hunger... i mean, there's a hungerfor obviously commercial stuff, and in that sense, i don't qualify. thwn mike leigh has to ask himself a question. is he prepared to bend a little bit? are you prepared to perhaps tailor what you do a little more to what the commercial people in the film business want? i think the answer to that question is it's less a matter of... no, i'm not prepared to do that because i think audiences for my work like what that is. but they might like something that is different. yes, but here's the thing. i don't know how many of my

films you've actually seen. i'm an old geezer, so i've seen quite a few. we know that they vary considerably. they're not all the same. they all have siblings of characteristics. but they do vary considerably. at one end of the spectrum, you have comedy like abigail's party and stuff. at the other end, you've got things like naked. even that film, which is being released commercially, has got humour in it. it's about lots of things. so, no, in terms of what you're really asking in terms of what i want to make...

a space moive. either that or bend a little bit on what you said earlier about the kinds of actors you work with. you work with brilliant actors, there's no question that people like timothy spall, who you've made at least half a dozen movie with, our brilliant actors, but they are maybe not on the top of the to get the kinds of people who are into your movies that haven't traditionally seen a mike leigh movie. i've seen the logic, but it doesn't really wash. it's not really what it's about. how bleak are you? i just wonder if you're feeling particularly bleak to the point where you're close to giving up, because this is a quote from an updated version of a book leon lee, you are quoted as saying, "my unscripted films, just not commercial, fair enough."

it is just a shock after half a century to discover that the game is up, thejoke is over and the curtain is probably coming down. i think i should be allowed a little hyperbole. laughter i'm not bleak and i'm notl giving up. in fact, i don't remember saying that, but i know i did. it's in the book. i'm not at all pessimistic, to be honest. a broader question about the culture. there's a lot of discussion and i have it with different artists in different media at the moment about the culture we live in, the focus on identity, representation, offence causing and how to respond to that. whether the art needs to provide safe spaces to people.

rather than challenge and threaten them too much. rather than challenge and threaten them too much. do you feel our 21st century culture is somewhat confused about what art is for and how it should be seen? well, i certainly am extremely cautious about box ticking. what to you is box ticking? box ticking is... we all agree about diversity, there's no question about that, but if you do things for the wrong reasons — and that includes what we were talking about a few minutes ago, about putting in hollywood stars. who you put into movies. the important thing is that everything has to be done for the right reasons and with integrity, and in a serious way. it's very, very... it's very possible to get confused.. about...

it is about entertainment. all sorts of things to say on all sorts of different levels about lives and people and how we live and also is entertaining. but moore has changed in cultural attitudes, and you mentioned the film naked which is being released. there are scenes in that film that are very difficult to watch. there are rape scenes and there is a character who is clearly a rapist in the movie. some women have found that difficult to take and don't like that movie and say that it offends them. what is your response to that? do you look back at some of your movies and think you wouldn't have made that today? well, if i do feel that i wouldn't make naked today, it it was made nearly 30 years

ago. it was made nearly 30 years ago. isn't for that reason. it's merely that we move on anyway. to be honest, if i really felt that about naked, we wouldn't have done a restoration and it wouldn't be going out on the re—released right now. i don't think that. the important thing about the rapist, and there is one in naked, is he is not the central character. to offset the notion that the central character is a misogynist, which he isn't. it's a complex film, so i think these things... we have to be careful because not everything is black and white. final thought. you made it pretty clear to me that film—making for you is ongoing. there is no way, even if you struggle to get the money, you're packing it in. that the real point. struggling is struggling, but that doesn't mean the battle is over. simple as that.

filmmaking is an important part of our cultural. i've been involved with young film—makers and there's all sorts of things happening which are incredibly exciting and by no means is that in any shape or form obvious old —fashioned commercial stuff. people are doing all sorts of things with this magical medium. mike leigh, that's a lovely way to end. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. thanks a lot. hello. we have some pretty quiet

weather to come across the uk in the next few days. but the end of the week could definitely offer us something rather more dramatic. for now though, it's about light winds and those winds coming in from the southwest or the west will bring some relatively mild air. this amber colour behind me showing air that's been pulled in quite a long way south across the atlantic indicating quite a warm feel actually to tuesday across parts of england and wales. you may have noticed some colder air to the far north of the uk, temperatures will struggle to get the double figures across northern most scotland with some squaly showers here. elsewhere, we are looking at i think at the low to mid teens, there will be some rain to the day for northern england and wales. but we should see brighter skies north of the front for much of scotland and northern ireland and to the south across southern and eastern england. and in this front is set to stick around through wednesday and thursday,

slowly making its way south across the uk. turning things quite murky, i think, across southern and eastern england into the small hours of wednesday, but it will stay very mild here. whereas that slightly colder to sneaks further south into scotland into the small hours of wednesday, we could see a patchy frost inside some of the sheltered glens to the north. here's our front on wednesday, still lurking to the south of the uk. it's looking much clearer further north for scotland and northern ireland, there should be some sunshine, just the chance of a few scattered showers in the far north and west. some sunshine for northern england and wales and an improved picture on tuesday. whereas for southern and eastern counties of england, it will be much grayer, much gloomier and there's a chance of some patchy rain on and off. and then for thursday, still the remnants of that weather front close to the south of the uk could mean some thicker cloud around here for a time a little bit of rain and actually for thursday, we are largely focusing on a ridge of high pressure and a lot of fine weather and light winds. i think potentially some rain getting into northern ireland by the end of the day and the wind started to kick up and here's why.

this area of low pressure looks like it's really deep to the end of the week and come swinging our way from the atlantic. quite a bit of uncertainty as to when and where exactly on friday that low will move in, but do keep it in the back of your mind as the potential for strong winds on friday.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: after 600 days the united states finally reopens its borders too much of the world's population. borders too much of the world's inundation-— population. airlines are hoping for many more _ population. airlines are hoping for many more scenes - population. airlines are hoping for many more scenes like - population. airlines are hoping for many more scenes like this in the coming weeks. it is a major milestone for separated families and a life science for the tourism industry ahead of the tourism industry ahead of the winter holidays is an. barack obama urges young people of the world to stay angry over climate as he speaks at the un summit in glasgow. the us

rapper travis scott