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tv   The Interview  BBC News  December 12, 2021 11:30am-12:00pm GMT

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uk prime minister borisjohson faces fresh questions about christmas gatherings at downing street a year ago — after a photo emerges of him taking part in a quiz. emergency teams search for survivors in six us states after more than 70 people die in the largest outbreaks of tornadoes in us history. g7 foreign ministers warn iran time is running out to rescue the nuclear deal. afghanistan's drug trade is booming in the wake of the economic collapse, with the country now a major manufacturer of crystal meth. the nhs is extending its vaccination programme as it tries to get on top of the omicron variant — 30 to 39 year olds in england can book a coronavirus booster jab from tomorrow. people in the french pacific territory of new caledonia vote in a third and final referendum on independence from france.
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now on bbc news it's time for the interview. aghanistan�*s former president hamid karzai speaks exclusively to the bbc�*s yalda hakim. hamid karzai's ill—year presidency of afghanistan was dominated by fighting with the taliban. when i sat down with him at his fortified home in central kabul, it was clear he was trying to make the best of a situation he spent years trying to avoid. we spoke at length about relations with united states, the role of women in government and access to education. hamid karzai describes his former foes as his brothers and is calling on the international community to continue to engage with the new taliban government. he fears, he tells me, the country becoming the world's worst humanitarian crisis. mr president, it has been over 100
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days now that the taliban have swept to power across this country. your assessment. well, our country has gone through a lot, sudden and massive changes, the country still needs to be sure of permanent peace and we are busy working in that direction. when you say busy working in that direction, what do you mean? meaning that the afghan people need to unite, need to work together. from the very beginning, from rather the third day of the arrival of the taliban and the establishment of new order in afghanistan, we have been speaking to many of the leaders with a common objective of making sure that the country stays peaceful, but it does not go back to any form of conflict.
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tell me about those early moments, because there was chaos, confusion, fear in this city, across the country. about what a taliban takeover would mean. we saw the leadership of this country fully, —flea... we saw officials leave, we saw the army fall apart. what were you doing in those moments? there were moments of uncertainty. there were some extremely sad developments, the collapse of some of the institutions of the country. i wish the army was still there. and the police was still there and the infrastructure that we had built was still there and that that infrastructure, the state, the state infrastructure, the institutions were then as afghans meet with and work together and assemble together with the taliban movement
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who are now in charge of power. so the taliban and the national institutions would work together, the taliban as the government and the institutions of the state as the service of the state of government would work together towards a secure and moving forward of afghanistan. the regret is that that didn't happen. some of our people left the country, the population was frightened, but luckily, as far as incidents and fears of those incidents were concerned, that didn't happen. the taliban arrived and the city remained quiet, there was no fighting, no incidents that would hurt the population. in that regard, i am very, very happy that the change occurred
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without bloodshed of the kind that people feared. but i am sad that the institutions collapsed. were you worried about yourself, your safety, the uncertainty? no, i wasn't worried about myself or my safety. i was worried about the overall situation in the country, about the people, about, you know, the general circumstances of the country. of course there were worries as a citizen of this country i wished things would have worked differently, i wish the peace process had succeeded, i wish arrangements had been made through the peace talks and a transfer of power to peace talks or an arrangement for a government together of all afghans together through peace talks. that didn't happen, that is a regret.
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i am very sorry about, but there was no fear in me that day and luckily, things worked fine. why did you stay, because we did see president ghani leave the country, we all those around him fully. and as you say, the institutions collapsed once he did leave. why did you stay? this is our country, this country belongs to us. so we are the sons of the country and we shouldn't leave and we should make it better and i would ask on all those afghans who have left to come back and build it. if you remember that during my time in office i would call the taliban our brothers. it was exactly with the same purpose in mind that i called them brothers. this is your country, let's build it together, let's work together, let's unite. i call now on all those afghans who have left, for whatever reason, to come back to afghanistan and work
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as brothers together with the taliban in this country for a betterfuture and i calll on the taliban especially, in a very particular way that it is now their responsibility of the government of the day, the taliban's responsibility to prepare the ground for an afghanistan that is, that is home to all afghans, where people can safely come back and work together. that would be a happy day. do you think the taliban are capable of this though? i have had meetings with them, the meetings were very good, the exchanges were very good on lots of issues, the return of women back to work, the schools, the flag of the country, the national flag of the country and the need for a political process for a government that belongs to all afghans, but all afghans see as there is, that is inclusive
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and that proportion to the afghans are seeing it as belonging to them and that is theirs. and that this can be based on through the expression of the will of the afghan people. these are the conversations that we have had, good conversations, there was an understanding, an agreement and as such, we are hoping that a follow—up will be made on it. so you are hopeful that perhaps the taliban would move towards having a more inclusive government. people are saying that the current government, the caretaker government is made up of exclusively men, exclusively taliban. do you think that is going to shift and change? it is better for the country for this to change. the day the government was announced, the interim government was announced, all we said that it has to be better and representative of the afghan people. today, as you and i are talking,
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there are some people in it could consider as being broader but life is always to move towards improvement, towards betterment. so our desire as a people, as a nation is that it be a lot better, a lot more representative including, very, very much, the participation of women in the government, women in the workplace and overall, the government, a state structure that the entire afghan population, the entirety of the population i sincerely would find themselves as being in the government, as represented by the government. that is a desire and that is a fair desire and the taliban understand that and they have spoken to us about it. so you're having frank conversations about the role of women in this
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society that the taliban are not the taliban of the 19905 where women aren't allowed to work, girls are not allowed to go to school, because so far, what we are seeing is the majority of teenage girls in this country have been stopped, banned from going to school. we very much want them to go back to school, the girls not only going to school, not only school, but universities, but to the workplaces. yes, we have had talks about this with the taliban, they agree with us, they understand it and they say that it will happen. we say that it should happen now, immediately. what are they waiting for? they keep talking about trying to create this environment that is safe for women and girls. what does that mean? this they may have a point in that, they have their own considerations for that. but we want it to be done sooner and in a hurry so girls can go to school all over the country, our country, our society would not advance in any way, in any real matter if the women
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— manner. . . are not part of the economy and quality of the state. that is a must. do you think the policies that they are now putting out there in terms of women shouldn't appear on television dramas or female journalists are television presenters should always have a hijab on and these policies towards women not being able to go to work, is that to appease their base? i don't know about that, but i can tell you that the afghan women generally wear the hijab, we are very much a hijab country and a very good muslim society, a deep believing muslim society so there is no issue as such and so, for their behaviour towards women have been much better than what the people perceived in the past. what we are asking is a lot more freedom in this regard for women. with the hijab of course, that women must be by all standards present
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and working in all walks of life. you were once the commander—in—chief of this nation, you also understand the afghan psyche better than anyone. when you hear phrases like the afghans didn't fight, the afghans didn't defend their nation, how do you respond because 66,000 afghan soldiers lost their lives? when you hear that, over the course of 20 years... afghans are a brave people, both our soldiers are brave and the taliban are brave. they are both afghans. this is the thing. this is what i have been saying for a long, long time. we are brothers and we must work together for our country and unite and make it good for us. not everyone sees them as brothers though. i do, i see the taliban as brothers. i now see all other afghans as brothers.
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we are a people, we are a nation. look, all afghans have suffered. afghanistan was bombed by foreign forces in the name of fighting the taliban, our villages were bombed, children were killed, families were destroyed. there were suicide bombs in the country in the names of fighting the foreigners, in which people were killed, children were killed. so we have suffered on all sides. at the end of the day, it is an afghan suffering and an afghan suffering includes those in the public, the soldiers, —of — of those in the republic... the police and also the taliban. and people and families. so we are brothers who have suffered for whatever reason, our mistakes, our exploitation by foreign powers. you confronted the united states over the years about night raids
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and aerial bombardments. given the way that the withdrawal happened, given that many feel the last, or many ask the question about the last two decades, what was the point? what message do you have to the united states, and in particularjoe biden, because you know him very well? yes, well, i have given lots of messages to the united states already on lots of occasions, but my message today to the united states is that they had better come and help the afghan people, they and their allies in the international community must help afghanistan rebuild itself, must heal the wounds that have been caused on all sides, must work with the taliban, they are the government today. work towards improvements,
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towards a better afghanistan and enable the afghan people towards a better economy. i don't want my country, afghanistan, to be an aid receiving country, a country that is hungry and extending a hand for assistance. no, that is not what we want, we want to live off our own means, we want to earn our own bread and butter and my appeal to the afghans, to all afghans, the taliban and all others is that if we unite and create a strong national government, we will find ways and means of earning our own bread—and—butter. we need not wait for an outside country, an outside source to come and feed us. it hurts. the taliban say they didn't bring this humanitarian crisis onto the afghan people, that the international community,
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by freezing assets, by imposing sanctions have caused this. but the international community is saying that we told the taliban, we made it very clear to the taliban but if you attempt to take over militarily, we will not assist you. we said that these things would happen. who's right? both are right. but since the taliban are afghans and we are afghans to, we afghans should unite. again, i keep speaking of unity and uniting. there is a purpose in it. when we afghans are all united together, the international community will follow our way and do what we asked them to do. what keeps you up at night? the concern about the future, about the education of our children, the afghan children. about people leaving the country, i don't want them to leave, i want them to stay in their own country, i want them to be brought
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up as proud afghans. but proud, good, educated afghans, our boys and girls. highly educated. i want my girls, the afghan girls, to be able to compete on all platforms around the world and win and boys, too. and that means a country that provides the best education to its children. this is what is keeping me up and this is my endeavour. second, but we must be a country that is, that lives in dignity, but shows that and that is not in need of the rest of the world and that can only be done when we unite and create a government that belongs to the afghan people and that represents all of us. but the truth is this nation faces economic collapse, a humanitarian crisis that the un says could turn into a catastrophe and of course, security is a major concern.
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how worried are you that is—k has gained more of a foothold in this country? that is a great worry, that is a great worry. for that reason, for that reason. it is upon us, the afghan people, to do all we can to have a better future. i have described an early so i will stop just short of that, it is again for us, the afghan people. i think it is past time for us afghans to be blaming outsiders or expecting outsiders to come and help us. i think it is upon us to put our own house in order. then things will be right. so it is our responsibility. and we must do it. the united states intelligence agencies have put out a very, very alarming warnings that afghanistan could, within six months, be used again as a base where terrorism is launched on the international community as a sanctuary.
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that shouldn't happen. that shouldn't happen and in that regard, it is the responsibility of the current government to make sure that that doesn't happen and i'm sure they will do that and we should stand behind and help it prevent that. in the international community should come and genuinely help, not interfere. there is a difference in the international community or countries helping us to interfering in us. we don't want interference in the name of the fight against terrorism or or in the name of that. if they want afghanistan to be stable and good and free from terrorism, any form of terrorism by others, they must come and help the afghan people build a good country and that is possible. the americans are talking about things like over
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the horizon operations. how worried are you about this? i strongly disagree with it. i have a message to united states on this. if you are using other territories to fly planes to afghanistan, or do military operations in afghanistan, that is wrong. help the afghans themselves to protect the country. and we will do it. as i have been opposed to it during my time in office, so nothing has changed in me in that. we want to be friends with the united states, aligned with united states, but there is a difference between friendship and flying warplanes over our country. no. do you think the international community countries within the region should recognise and listen and legitamise the taliban? this is a process. of course, we want the international community to stay engaged
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with afghanistan, to recognise the afghan government, but also, we afghans must make sure that by, by making sure internally the representation of the government, the expression of the will of the afghan people and the legitimisation of the government by bringing in the afghan people's expressed will, then approaching the international community for recognition would certainly work. so it is a parallel activity. 0ne activity is the international community to come and recognise, the other is for us, the afghan people, to provide the grounds for that sort of recognition through an internal legitimacy. what role do you see for yourself within that? a citizen of the country, a citizen that has a bit of an experience in dealing
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with our own affairs and things and with the international community but a citizen and as a citizen, i will do all i can to make this country good for all of us. there are many rumours that your movement is restricted. what is your movement? what are you able to do? can you get out? i can get out and visit places. i informed the security authorities and they come and provide us an escort so you've visited us right now, you came with your cameraman and you saw there were no difficulties. there is tighter security around my house, which is legitimate, but i am free to move around and engage with people. people visit me on a daily basis, there is no such thing. do you feel this nation is on the path to peace and security? there is a level of uncertainty.
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i have certainly felt it... yes, yes, you are right on that. there is a level of uncertainty in the population and that is our responsibility, primarily, the responsibility of the current government and the taliban movement to make sure that the operation — the population... is engaged and engaged effectively for the purpose of creating an environment where the entire population of afghanistan will see its self is represented well in the government and the best way towards that is to announce decree, the constitution of afghanistan, so that other laws will function and flow and move on and attract educated afghans, younger afghans, women, make it a full—fledged functioning government and country. that is the way forward and that is the surest way for us
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to be secure and free from threats and extremism and terrorism. the fear that many people have. i have spoken to people who say they don't leave their homes, they are worried. they also have fears that this could be the taliban on their best behaviour because the international community is watching and actually, they could impose quite strict measures on the afghan people, women, children. are you worried about that? no, i am not worried about that. i think things will improve. but for that to happen, i have already expressed myself during this interview, certain measures must be taken, so i'm not going to be a sceptic here. i am an optimist by nature, i have always been an optimist. the country will function better. of course, i have advice
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to those who are in charge that the population do have those concerns and those concerns must be addressed and we must all unite together to address those concerns, especially those afghans who have left must be approached, must be invited back must be spoken to. a process must be lodged so that everyone feels as part of this — launched... country and in the service of this great nation. you have spoken about interference from the united states, but what about from regional powers? because there is a lot of concern... no interference from anybody. but are you worried about interference from pakistan? i have spoken about that and we don't want them interfering. the pakistani people are a great friend of the afghan people and the pakistanis have helped us a great deal when we were refugees there. we are grateful for that. but we don't want them to be interfering in our country and yes, the afghan people are concerned about that interference, greatly concerned. not by the civilian government, but by military establishment. 0r whoever.
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we don't want any interference by any neighbour, we especially advise our brothers in pakistan to refrain from that. they have done it in the past, they must not continue. how do you see the future? the future, if we act wisely as a people, as afghan people, unite and work together and see that this country belongs to all afghans and that every afghan is as much an owner of this country as the other afghan, we will be a great country and that is what we should be working for and that is what i am working for as a citizen of this country. do you have a message for the young teenage girls who are stuck at home, who can't get to classrooms? oh, yes, oh, yes. what you to them? a lovely message. get out and study and be brave and there are people who know that
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you are brave and that you will study and we will make sure that you study and it will happen. mister president, thank you for your time. you're welcome, you're welcome. good talking to you. hello there, everyone. i hope you're doing all right. it's much milder for many of us across the uk today. there is, however, quite a lot of cloud around and for some of us, some rain as well. let's have a look at the finer detail then. we have this feature which is draped across parts of northern ireland, into the north of england, moving northwards into scotland. that will bring some rain. the breeze and strengthening as this area of low pressure moves towards us. many of us are seeing a bit more in the way of brightness today and milder. 13 or 14 c across much of england and wales, whereas further north, the very far north of scotland, it will be cooler. moving through tonight, this area of low pressure is likely to bring gale force winds, potentially severe gales across western paris and northern parts of scotland in particular. turning windy across northern ireland and other areas as well. this weather front to the south
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bringing some rain as well. blustery winds behind that area of low pressure. cooler to the north, quite mild across many parts as we head through tonight and we remain a bit milder across much of the uk over the coming days.
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this is bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak. the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. days before a likely backbench rebellion — uk prime minister, borisjohnson faces fresh questions about christmas gatherings at downing street a year ago — after a photo emerges of him taking part in a quiz. he can't deliver the leadership that this country needs. we have got a very important vote coming up next weekend he can't even discharge the basic functions. the worst possible lead at the worst possible time. they can now make their mind up when they see him on a virtual screen, or a zoom call thanking his team who are in the building because they have to be to respond to a national emergency.

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