from russia and ukraine points towards president vladimir putin planning what �*could be the biggest war in europe since 1945'. speaking to the bbc — mrjohnson said that all the signs were that the russian president's plan had already begun. the interim police chief in ottawa has said significant progress has been made in clearing unlawful protests from the streets of the canadian capital — but the operation is not over yet. he defended the police use of pepper spray and stun grenades as they had faced aggressive resistance. two people are in hospital after the helicopter they were flying in crashed into the sea off miami in the us state of florida. it's believed the helicopter lost engine power but the pilot was able to steer away from people on the beach — even as the helicopter fell. now on bbc news, it's

time for the media show. hello. if you really want to know how much power our newspapers have, you need to go to the top. and on today's media show we're with a man who's been at the heart of fleet street for decades. john witherow is one of the longest—serving national newspaper editors first at the sunday times and now the times. under him those papers have exposed cash for honors, corruption of oxfam, abused that brought so at a time when the prime minister is fighting for his political life after a series of scoops that could still bring him down, what does the editor of the times make of it all and how does he explain the relationship towards the press and the people in power? and with first a new radio station, times radio and now in upcoming tv station, is the organisation he leads set on taking down the bbc? john witherow, welcome to the media show —

for the first time. and i'd like to get a sense from you, as we start about your media habits. what do you listen to in the morning? i imagine you were once fully a today programme person but now you are loyal to times radio? no, i listen to the today programme and times radio. because it's important to see what both are doing. and what about tv, your news channel of choice? generally, the bbc but i admire itn as well. and do you still read physical newspapers or are you now an app devotee? i am a bit of both. i do read print at home, a few newspapers in print but i read the rest digitally. let's start, let's turn to how you ended up as one of the most seniorfigures in fleet street. you were born in south africa and moved to the uk as a child. what was it that drove you to become a journalist in the first place? well, when i was 19 i went to what was then southwest africa to work as a volunteer teacher. i was meant to go up to the border — angola

but the authorities then with south africa, they govern southwest africa, now namibia. so i couldn't go up and teach there so i set up a library in the capital. while i was there one of the people i was working with got expelled by the south africans. and he was a stringer for the bbc world service and bbc africa service. hejust handed it to me. i knew nothing about journalism. the only thing i knew was what my father told me, dog bites man is not a story, man bites dog is a story. i had to learn very fast doing broadcasts, i think i was terrible, they were really nice at the world service and they encouraged me and so i did a series of interviews and told them what was going on in southwest africa, which was a really interesting time. because as i say, it was apartheid on steroids. it had a large africana and german population who were very hard line. it was a very difficult time and the people i was working with, three of them got expelled, two of them were put

under arrest in south africa. so we were seen as a kind of hotbed of anti—apartheid. but it was a really fast learning curve and that's when i really got the bug. and from the beginning of your career and then from there you focused on foreign reporting. you covered the iranian embassy siege in your first week, i think. then the iran, iraq and falklands wars. is foreign news really where your heart lies? no, it was then. by the way, i was a terrible war reporter. why? but i seemed to be sent to all these wars. what made you a terrible war reporter? i tried to cover the wars in a kind of objective way, particularly the falklands. max hastings was there and he understood no, you had to do and in the way the british want to read about it. i was still applying old reuters rules which is nonsense. and max hastings outgunned all of us then. so it was a fantastic experience. then i did... i got better at it.

but i wasn't a natural war reporter like anthony loyd, who we have now who is totally outstanding. or marie colvin, who of course, got killed a decade ago. a decade this month. but i liked foreign news because i did start out at reuters and worked in madrid for about a year. but once i came... i was on the foreign desk at the sunday times for quite a while but then i moved onto home news so all news interests me but foreign is obviously very important. you're clearly a natural at being the editor, you've been the editor for the sunday times from 1995 then the times in 2013, how would you describe your editor style? pretty direct. i hope that i give clear direction. i thought it was very important at the times that we had to take a much more constructive attitude towards news. one thing i've seen over the years is that you read

the media, newspapers in particular and they portray a very negative image of what's going on in the world. so people, i think this is one of the reasons is less trust because people look at their own lives and see generally things are getting better, and i mean a generalisation, things are getting better but that's not what they see in the media where everything looks like it's going to hell in a handcart. i think it's important that the times starts doing more constructive news. journalists will often have a story that's 80% positive and 20% negative. and the kneejerk reaction ofjournalist, probably including me at one stage is you go to the negative because it gives you a better headline. but in fact, the story is generally positive. we want to turn that around and make news reflect the world more accurately because the world is getting better. people are living longer, disease is in retreat, violence is down over the decades but people

don't realise that. if you read the newspaper you think everything is getting worse, it's not. and we want to change that direction. and in terms of how far you would push yourjournalists to bring in stories, people told me that you rule by fear and they're afraid of you. well, they shouldn't. .. i heard that and i don't believe it. they shouldn't be, i don't think i'm a fearful person at all. i believe in being direct with people. is it your way of ensuring that yourjournalists bring in scoops, you need to put pressure on them? yeah, i think everybody needs scoops, exclusives are central to all publications. without them you're just reporting the mass out there. we have to differentiate ourselves. what we see on digital is, when you have exclusives, people really engage much more and admire the paper doing for that. we've had a string of real exclusive over the years and that's what people remember.

they don't remember the day to day run—of—the—mill stuff. they admire the times if it covers something like covid thoroughly and responsibly which i think we have done. but you need scoops to lift yourself above the run—of—the—mill. i guess when it comes to scoops, right now the biggest scoops are all around politics, or more specifically politics and parties during covid lockdown. i'm sure the audience will be interested to know, what is your relationship with borisjohnson? i noticed that you had him on times radio, the first interview with the prime minister that morning. yes, that was great to get. we have contact with him. i don't think he's a particular admirer of the times, we've been pretty critical. i think boris was a great campaigner, i'm not sure he's a great governor. and you see what's happening now, evidence of the chaos in downing street which he's trying to sort out. he is of course in considerable personal danger of remaining prime minister and we'll have to wait and see how that plays out. is it right that you play

tennis with borisjohnson and other members of the family? i think i've only played once with boris but i played with his brotherjoe and his sister rachel. any good? yeah, they�* re good. you? adequate. when did you last visit downing street? a couple of months ago, i think. does it happen often? no. how often? not very often. maybe a couple of times a year, i might speak to him and other ministers on the phone. and is that fairly common? how often would an editor of the times, someone with good connection speak to the prime minister on the phone? not very often, it depends on what comes up. sometimes he's complaining. other times he wants us to tell him what's going on. what's useful about speaking to the prime minister and other politicians, not really what they tell you because you discover they're telling exactly the same on the bbc the next day. it's really what's on their mind, the preoccupations. and you learn from the subject they raise what's really concerning them. and that's quite valuable. the information you

get from them isn't. what does he ring to complain about? famously, we did a story saying he was going to get rid of his dog. which i think might have been planted by dominic cummings who wanted to get rid of the dog. this greatly upset the prime minister and carrie and he rang up to complain about that story of all things. anything more serious that he complains about? sometimes coverage, really it's more nonspecific. and when the prime minister calls, do you feel under pressure, it's the prime minister, does it impact what you do? no. and do you speak to him more than you spoke to other prime ministers, teresa may for example? no, about the same. under your watch sunday times broke the story with cash for honours story with allegations of donors to political parties being rewarded. there've been many scoops sense. why didn't you break partygate? would've loved to. it was a good scoop, that one. lots of stories i would

love to have broken. i think the ft, cameron and greensill, that was a good story. it's interesting because pa rtygate, very few journalists, lots of parties going on and very few journalists knew about it. you had it on your lap in a sense because on saturday, 20th 2020 the times published the story of the political editor, the policy editor said borisjohnson celebrated his 56th birthday yesterday with a small gathering in the cabinet room, rishi sunak and a group of aides sang him happy birthday before they tucked into a unionjack cake. so back then you had what then became a huge story, how could you print it without realising it was incendiary? well spotted! we missed it. what do you think about that now? it's embarrassing. had you heard about parties at downing street before the mirror and itv published scoops? no, not from that when you mention. in that sense, you've heard of it but not recognised it as a party. i don't we put together, at that time that it was clashing at that time exactly

with the instructions of the government. i think that's what happened, that's why we didn't spot it. and when you saw the video, when you saw it emerging, i always ask people how they feel when someone else gets the scoop. how did it feel? oh, sick. clearly these revelations have been damaging for the prime minister, whether terminal is still up in the air. do you think he will be prime minister by the end of the year? it's really hard to predict that. he is a survivor. i happen to know david cameron has a bet on it, an expensive dinner that boris will survive the year. so the former prime minister thinks that. a bet with who? i don't know. not with you? no. it's really hard to predict at this stage how the police inquiry will go and what the sue gray report will actually say. and how the party feels, i think his great advantage is,

they can't agree on who will succeed him. he is a fighter. i don't think he give up easily. i guess our audience will be very interested in how powerful is the times, if you want to could you bring borisjohnson down? only through a story that was shocking and that people thought was absolutely unacceptable. you couldn't do it any other way. if we were campaigning that he should go, i don't think that would make any difference, for example. it's the actual stories that change public opinion and the tory party's views. could it also be more subtle than that? if you decided for example, if you backed rishi sunak tomorrow and you did it subtly, so you just started writing articles that painted him in a positive light. do you think that that would swing it? no. and would you do that? no, not at this stage. there could be a stage where you might switch allegiance? yeah, maybe. what would it take? i don't know, we have to see. do you plan to do it anytime soon. we will have to see. interesting, interesting.

do you think papers can do that, can bring people down? it used to be the case that that was an understanding, that newspapers could if they chose to bring down politicians. stories can. i don't think a paper like the times can because we don't campaign overtly, we don't roll against a politician. you may find a paper like the mail or the sun can be much more vehement and vitriolic against a leader than we can. i think our readers like that and they want us to present the news, for them to make up their own minds not for us to tell them what to think. you have a columnist whose wife allegra stratton was central in the partygate story early on, just to remind the audience, she was downing street press secretary and she resigned after a leaked video showing her being asked about a now infamous cheese and wine event during lockdown. what conversations were you having with him at the time and was it uncomfortable for you both

that he was so personally involved in the story? i think it was very upsetting to him what happened to her, she was clearly very upset. but the strength of james is notjust through allegra but through other sources. he has amazing contacts in government. he can tell readers what he thinks is going on and the general drift of the party, what ministers say. they'll talk to him extensively off the record. and is very cosy with rishi sunak. and he's close with rishi sunak. he has a real insight, it's important papers give the readers a sense of what's happening through somebody who is incredibly well—connected. do you think that the story, partygate, what happened to his wife, has it changed his attitude to the government and the way he writes about them? i don't know, i haven't asked him. we've talked about the revolving door between the press and politicians.

guto harri worked for a time here 2015 for news uk, is there something uncomfortably cosy about the relationship between the press and politicians? the, there is source of information to journalists which is valuable. because ministers wants to stay clear of special advisers that's useful. it seemed director of communications, if they are good are also valuable i don't think it's corrupting in any way or distorting. obviously, they're pushing a message, it's thejob of journalists to discern that and try and find the path through it to get to the truth. generally, they're pretty valuable, i'd say. but when a journalist or director of communications comes to work for a newspaper presumably the newspaper is buying something from them, expertise, is it more than that, the access to power? maybe but it's pretty transient as people move on. if you hire them as a journalist you're hiring them for their skills as a journalist, not necessarily for contacts they have. if you are not hiring them

is a journalist that's different? yeah. obviously, everyone would understand that everyone needs sources at the heart of government. that's what you're talking about but how much of a mouth piece are you going to be, would you be happy for somebody, one of your journalist to be printing verbatim for something dominic cummings was telling them? well, dominic cummings tells everybody what he thinks. and a lot gets printed verbatim. if you are getting good information on what's going on inside of number ten, that's valuable. and you would reported, it would have cummings�* influence on it. but if he was telling you what was happening, that's very useful. you allow readers to balance against the other things. other sources say that's not true, that's not it is, it is different so you do it in the round. i suppose part of the problem is when he was at

the heart of downing street he wasn't being quoted. he wasn't being quoted but he was providing information. i'd like to turn to the broader question of rupert murdochs influence of the british media. the culture secretary is changing existing legislation to allow your boss to interfere in the times and the sunday times. nadine dorries says it's not in murdochs financial interest to do so can you just explain why it wouldn't be? yeah, that's not true what you described. just explain the undertaking, when he bought the titles in 1981 he gave undertakings the two titles that would remain separate. there was a real interest then that without digital media that we needed a plurality of opinions. and they didn't want the times and sunday times to merge. that's what's existed for a0 years. the anomaly was, this was a 20th—century decision that doesn't apply to the digital age, 21st century. the fact that the government could have some say on the free press is an anomaly.

i think the department of culture, media and sport accepted that, that we should be involved, you look after your own business, you have a level playing field with the other publishers so you are treated the same. so they've agreed to these undertakings to be removed from their influence. the undertakings remain they're being put into our employment contracts and we are going to continue to have independent directors. it's exactly the same set up that with employment law governing and government. so the times and the sunday times will remain separate? remaining separate in terms of editors in key areas. we've already started merging parts of it. a lot of readers now read seven days and we are trying to do that to avoid duplication and that would were made on thing so we don't repeat stories or cover the same ground. it's just sensible. scenarios like sports and features where we agree on things. there will be people who say

nadine dorries is wrong, they will argue that rupert murdoch meddles in our democracy and this decision could give him more power to do so. it's not true. you need to remember, with a whopping revolution, murdoch essentially save the press with a that enabled the other titles to become much more successful for that enabled the sunday times to become multi—sectioned and all newspapers to flourish. it was a very positive thing. it wasn't written like that at the time. some people will disagree with you. the print unions had their boot on our throats at the time. and that got rid of it and all the others followed suit. the fact is, he doesn't interfere, he doesn't interfere in the times or the sunday times of so he won't get on the phone and talk to you about stories that are in the papers or... no, i'll ask what's going on what's happening in

government and general things. he doesn't interfere. i give you a good example, one of the most important decisions that this country is taken in the century was brexit. rupert murdoch was pro brexit and indeed the sun was. but the times was remain, sceptic remain but it argued that it was better to remain for economic reasons and better to be inside the tent than outside. did he get onto the phone about that was like he accepted it. he said most of our readers are remain, most of the staff are remain and we need to reflect what we instinctively think you're right. do you tailor it all stories to his case, is there any pressure on that front even if it's not coming from them to feel that you want to please the proprietor? no, no not at all. what's your personal relationship with rupert murdoch, what's he like is an individual? he's kind of an mixture of a businessman and a strong journalistic trait. he is very curious

about things. his father was an editor and a fine journalist in the gallipoli campaign. hejust curious, he asked questions a journalist would ask. he's interested in politics, business, he's a bit of a political want, actually. i wonder how you managed to work with him for so long when other editors are coming on. i'm very lucky. one of the thing doing a few things i could do adequately is at it and i think he acknowledges that. i've been lucky that i've had the sunday times and then the times both financially successful. and the times is now. and it gives you an enormous amount of strength that the paper is successful and it takes the pressure off and management are much more positive and helping you, investing injournalism, investing in digital and all the key objectives. he's characterised as an outsider. i wonder, in a sense the establishment, you even play tennis with the prime minister but you like murdoch see yourself as an outsider, do you think that? i thinkjournalists should be outsiders. we should all be part of the establishment, we should always be critical when we think it's right.

supportive if they do the right things but generally we are critics and that's the right thing. let's think now about some of the big debates that are threatening to fragment the establishment. the times has taken a campaigning agenda particularly with janice turner's column and also general it's an explosive topic as you know. and the line has always been, we are sympathetic obviously to tra ns—people who are transitioning. and so we should be. what she has done is taken on the militants, the people who self—declared themselves. in many cases as women. and her view and the view on women's right when they appear in public laboratories and changing rooms and sports and this is right.

i back on that, i think it's the right approach. people get very, very angry about it. because those are quite controversial for many, for some. certainly when people hear this there will be complaints that you said that. do you get a lot of complaints from readers and indeed from campaign? we have had a lot of hostility. i think the vast majority of our readers agree with the point of view. is that what they say to you? yes. we hear the terms culture wars bandied around about a lot. gender clearly believed as being part of that are tied up in that. attitudes are changing. i was talking to a young man in his 20s who doesn't believe in a lot of these culture wars and i said, why don't you go out there and say those things? he says i can't. i'll be cancelled. it's so intolerant. and that's one of the problems i think we face now that we would as a newspaper encourage tolerance on all grounds. and yet this has become an extremely vitriolic debate which is very

unwelcome, i think. you mention being cancelled, cancel culture, what's your take on that? for example, like thejimmy carr story, when that story reported as it is, on the bbc, does a little part of you think, we are contributing to potentially cancelling someone or does it come into your mind at all? a little bit but i think you just report the stories and people make up their own mind. how you see the times�* role in navigating all of this, navigating the culture wars. are you fighting culture wars orjust reporting on them? we are reporting on them but when we comment they take up positions within our reporting we should be as objective as possible. when it comes to gender do you believe that broadly you reflect a broad spectrum?

because you are under fire for having janice turner, very high profile at the paper and people complain and say there�*s not enough of the other side? we do represent the other side. maybe not as much as janice or as prominently. but she is taking on the militants. as i say, our readers support that. we�*ve attracted women readers from other publications because of janice�*s stance. you�*ve been editor for nine years, you are at the sunday times for 18 years before that, just turned 70, happy birthday. are you planning to retire anytime soon? not unless i�*m retired. i love it. it�*s an incredibly privileged job and every day�*s different. i come in with a spring in my step taken, what can happen today and what will we report? i�*m incredibly lucky to do thejob. how many more prime ministers do you think you see while you�*re editor? depends on how long

boris stays. you�*re a giant on fleet street, what do you think your legacy will be? i hope we made the times and sunday times successful financially stable and good journalism. we have incredibly talented journalists and they will survive for another 200 plus years. that�*s a key objectives we are just guardians of these titles and we have to establish them to be successful for the future. thank you so much forjoining us today. thank you very much. for now, thanks for watching, goodbye. hello. sunday, i�*m afraid, is going to be a windier day right across the uk once again. we�*ve got a low pressure system that�*s getting closer, sending wet weather southwards across us. but as it approaches, the winds strengthen too and theyjust get stronger through sunday. it stays very windy overnight sunday night and through much of monday before easing. the potential, again, for strong, disruptive gusts of wind. there are some met office

weather warnings. rain moving south, then showers, and after a mild start, it will be turning colder from the north later in the day. a lot of cloud and outbreaks of rain to begin the day and a focus on the rain in north—west england — 20 to a0 mm, more into the hills, on saturated ground, so this could bring some problems. it�*ll take a while before the rain clears away from northern ireland and southern scotland. a lot of cloud and outbreaks of rain in wales and england, but then you see this narrow band of quite intense, even torrential rain forms and moves southwards as the day goes on with particularly squally winds along it. now, wind gusts 40—50 mph quite widely, more around some western and southern coasts. but along this narrow band of intense rain, those winds could be gusting in excess of 60 mph, potentially disruptive gusts of wind. and as for temperatures, turning colder behind the area of rain, initially in scotland and northern ireland, and the showers that follow will be increasingly wintry even to lower levels and some of those will filter further south through sunday night. and the winds get stronger still, at this stage, around some of the coasts

of scotland, northern ireland and through the irish sea, maybe up to around 70 mph in places, so potential disruption out of those going into monday morning. and then on monday, the low pressure is pulling away, but still a squeeze in the isobars, still batches of showers moving southwards, though easing later. some sunny spells in between, but it remains very windy out there and still gusting quite widely 50—60 mph for a time, particularly towards western and southern areas. and then those winds will gradually ease later in the day, but not until we�*ve dealt with some more potentially disruptive gusts out there. and temperatures will be close to average, if not a little bit above for the time of year. there is a bit of a lull on monday night. after that, it stays unsettled with further spells of rain and wind, though perhaps not as windy as it�*s been at the moment. friday is looking like a fine day. it doesn�*t look like it will last.

good morning. welcome to breakfast, with luxmy gopal and rogerjohnson. our headlines today: a stark warning from the prime minister of the size of the conflict to come, and the lives that will be lost, if russia attacks ukraine. iam afraid i am afraid to say that the plan that were seeing as to something that were seeing as to something that could be, really, the biggest war in europe since 1945, just in terms of sheer scale. the end of coronavirus regulations in england to be outlined by the government tomorrow, as part of a plan for living with covid. it�*s finally happened.

on the final day of the winter olympics.