hello and welcome to the programme which brings together some of the bbc�*s most experienced correspondents with international journalists who write, blog and broadcast to audiences back home from the dateline: london.

this week, what happens when one of the world's founding nuclear weapons goes rogue? can a strategic deterrent become a tactical weapon for the battlefield? and is war europe's future, no longerjust its past? today's dateline panel: john simpson is the bbc�*s world affairs editor. jeffrey kofman has anchored news programmes in the us and canada and reported from war zones. in the studio is thomas kielinger, who's been explaining the british to german audiences since the 1960s — a time when both europe and his own country were divided.

look at craters on the earth. we don't he could destroy productive european country in the progress but could leave nothing left in huge areas and thatis leave nothing left in huge areas and that is a devastating prospect. we are seeing that in some cities. they are seeing that in some cities. they are not seeing it across large parts, certainly not clear. but early days yet. we have to see where

this goes. early days yet. we have to see where this noes. a , early days yet. we have to see where this noes. 1, , ., early days yet. we have to see where this noes. a , ., ., this goes. barely two weeks into this goes. barely two weeks into this conflict. _ this goes. barely two weeks into this conflict. i _ this goes. barely two weeks into this conflict. i wonder, _ this goes. barely two weeks into this conflict. i wonder, what - this goes. barely two weeks into i this conflict. i wonder, what impact does all of this having on russia's immediate neighbours who made certain assumptions about the way russia would conduct itself, all the grumbling and noises and growls from moscow on occasion, that they could be reassured that certain builds would not be broken. absolutely. here in finland, _ would not be broken. absolutely. here in finland, for _ would not be broken. absolutely. here in finland, for instance, - here in finland, for instance, people — here in finland, for instance, people thought that they had a really— people thought that they had a really good relationship going with russia, _ really good relationship going with russia, trading relationship, political— russia, trading relationship, political relationship, no real upsets— political relationship, no real upsets our problems. and then, suddenly, — upsets our problems. and then, suddenly, there starts to be talk that finn — suddenly, there starts to be talk that finn then, like sweden, might be happier— that finn then, like sweden, might be happier being in nato and then immediately russia threatens them with a _ immediately russia threatens them with a possible military consequences. 0k, with a possible military consequences. ok, maybe did not mean they were _ consequences. ok, maybe did not mean they were going to bomb or invade,

maybe _ they were going to bomb or invade, maybe draw tanks up to the border where _ maybe draw tanks up to the border where i_ maybe draw tanks up to the border where i am — maybe draw tanks up to the border where i am now but it really worried people _ where i am now but it really worried peorrte and — where i am now but it really worried people and had the precise reverse effect _ people and had the precise reverse effect and — people and had the precise reverse effect and so presumably persistent putin wanted. it has encouraged them to think— putin wanted. it has encouraged them to think aboutjoining putin wanted. it has encouraged them to think about joining nato and the majority— to think about joining nato and the majority of people according to the latest _ majority of people according to the latest opinion poll want to do that how _ latest opinion poll want to do that now it _ latest opinion poll want to do that now it is — latest opinion poll want to do that now. it is an object lesson in how not now. it is an object lesson in how hot to— now. it is an object lesson in how not to conduct your relationships with your— not to conduct your relationships with your near neighbours. there was an incident in — with your near neighbours. there was an incident in the _ with your near neighbours. there was an incident in the on _ with your near neighbours. there was an incident in the on wednesday - with your near neighbours. there was an incident in the on wednesday with | an incident in the on wednesday with an incident in the on wednesday with a russian airforce an incident in the on wednesday with a russian air force was in the airspace of the swedish island in the swedish flew up and there was a bit of a confrontation and it ended peacefully but it was perhaps a sign that there are lots of ways of tweaking the tale, as it were, of your neighbours, without actually

invading them using aggression. perhaps the biggest change, though, has been in germany's approach. they have almost kind of abandoned decades of policy over this. astonishing. an about turn overnight. _ astonishing. an about turn overnight, within - astonishing. an about turn overnight, within days, - astonishing. an about turn - overnight, within days, virtually, where _ overnight, within days, virtually, where we — overnight, within days, virtually, where we threw— overnight, within days, virtually, where we threw away _ overnight, within days, virtually, where we threw away all - overnight, within days, virtually, where we threw away all our- overnight, within days, virtually, i where we threw away all our sacred cows _ where we threw away all our sacred cows of _ where we threw away all our sacred cows of political— where we threw away all our sacred cows of political prudence - where we threw away all our sacred cows of political prudence and - where we threw away all our sacred cows of political prudence and so i cows of political prudence and so forth _ cows of political prudence and so forth we — cows of political prudence and so forth we now— cows of political prudence and so forth. we now stop _ cows of political prudence and so forth. we now stop this - cows of political prudence and so forth. we now stop this gas i forth. we now stop this gas pipeline. _ forth. we now stop this gas pipeline, festival, - forth. we now stop this gas pipeline, festival, which i forth. we now stop this gasl pipeline, festival, which was forth. we now stop this gas i pipeline, festival, which was to forth. we now stop this gas - pipeline, festival, which was to be a main _ pipeline, festival, which was to be a main source _ pipeline, festival, which was to be a main source for— pipeline, festival, which was to be a main source for our— pipeline, festival, which was to be a main source for our energy- pipeline, festival, which was to be i a main source for our energy supply in russie _ a main source for our energy supply in russie thet— a main source for our energy supply in russia. that has— a main source for our energy supply in russia. that has now— a main source for our energy supply in russia. that has now gone. it- in russia. that has now gone. it gusts _ in russia. that has now gone. it gusts 10 — in russia. that has now gone. it gusts 10 billion _ in russia. that has now gone. it gusts 10 billion to _ in russia. that has now gone. it gusts 10 billion to build - in russia. that has now gone. it gusts 10 billion to build and i in russia. that has now gone. it gusts 10 billion to build and it i gusts 10 billion to build and it will not — gusts 10 billion to build and it will not go _ gusts 10 billion to build and it will not go into _ gusts 10 billion to build and it will not go into operation. i gusts 10 billion to build and it| will not go into operation. the ascending _ will not go into operation. the ascending military— will not go into operation. the ascending military hardware, i will not go into operation. the i ascending military hardware, an unconscionable _ ascending military hardware, an unconscionable of _ ascending military hardware, an unconscionable of rain - ascending military hardware, an unconscionable of rain in - ascending military hardware, an unconscionable of rain in the i ascending military hardware, an. unconscionable of rain in the olden days, _ unconscionable of rain in the olden days, only— unconscionable of rain in the olden days. only a — unconscionable of rain in the olden deys. only a few— unconscionable of rain in the olden days, only a few days _ unconscionable of rain in the olden days, only a few days before - unconscionable of rain in the olden days, only a few days before the i days, only a few days before the conflict — days, only a few days before the conflict began. _ days, only a few days before the conflict began. it— days, only a few days before the conflict began. it was _ days, only a few days before the conflict began. it was not- days, only a few days before the i conflict began. it was not thinkable that we _ conflict began. it was not thinkable that we would _ conflict began. it was not thinkable that we would send _ conflict began. it was not thinkable that we would send missiles - conflict began. it was not thinkable that we would send missiles and i that we would send missiles and anti-tank— that we would send missiles and anti—tank weapons _ that we would send missiles and anti—tank weapons to _ that we would send missiles and anti—tank weapons to fighters. l that we would send missiles and l anti—tank weapons to fighters. we have now— anti—tank weapons to fighters. we have now decided _ anti—tank weapons to fighters. we have now decided also _ anti—tank weapons to fighters. we have now decided also to, - have now decided also to, eventually, _ have now decided also to, eventually, upgrade i have now decided also to, eventually, upgrade our. have now decided also to, i eventually, upgrade our nato contribution, _ eventually, upgrade our nato contribution, 2%_ eventually, upgrade our nato contribution, 2% of— eventually, upgrade our nato contribution, 2% of the - eventually, upgrade our natol contribution, 2% of the budget eventually, upgrade our nato - contribution, 2% of the budget every year _ contribution, 2% of the budget every year for— contribution, 2% of the budget every year. forwhich— contribution, 2% of the budget every year. for which the _ contribution, 2% of the budget every year. for which the american - year. for which the american persistent, _ year. for which the american persistent, years _ year. for which the american persistent, years after - year. for which the americanj persistent, years after years. year. for which the american i persistent, years after years. and it is up— persistent, years after years. and it is up to — persistent, years after years. and it is up to put— persistent, years after years. and it is up to put into— persistent, years after years. and it is up to put into convince - it is up to put into convince pacifist _ it is up to put into convince pacifist germany _ it is up to put into convince pacifist germany to - it is up to put into convince pacifist germany to turn i it is up to put into convince i pacifist germany to turn around it is up to put into convince - pacifist germany to turn around at one fell _ pacifist germany to turn around at one fell swoop _ pacifist germany to turn around at one fell swoop. we _ pacifist germany to turn around at one fell swoop. we also _

pacifist germany to turn around at one fell swoop. we also think i pacifist germany to turn around at i one fell swoop. we also think again about— one fell swoop. we also think again about nuclear — one fell swoop. we also think again about nuclear energy. _ one fell swoop. we also think again about nuclear energy. we - one fell swoop. we also think again about nuclear energy. we wanted l one fell swoop. we also think againl about nuclear energy. we wanted to completely— about nuclear energy. we wanted to completely phase _ about nuclear energy. we wanted to completely phase out _ about nuclear energy. we wanted to completely phase out nuclear- about nuclear energy. we wanted tol completely phase out nuclear plants. the green _ completely phase out nuclear plants. the green minister— completely phase out nuclear plants. the green minister of— completely phase out nuclear plants. the green minister of all— completely phase out nuclear plants. the green minister of all nurses i completely phase out nuclear plants. the green minister of all nurses in. the green minister of all nurses in the cabinet — the green minister of all nurses in the cabinet has _ the green minister of all nurses in the cabinet has declared, - the green minister of all nurses in the cabinet has declared, no, i the green minister of all nurses in the cabinet has declared, no, wel the green minister of all nurses in. the cabinet has declared, no, we can continue _ the cabinet has declared, no, we can continue to— the cabinet has declared, no, we can continue to use — the cabinet has declared, no, we can continue to use whatever— the cabinet has declared, no, we can continue to use whatever nuclear i continue to use whatever nuclear plants _ continue to use whatever nuclear plants we — continue to use whatever nuclear plants we still— continue to use whatever nuclear plants we still have _ continue to use whatever nuclear plants we still have for _ continue to use whatever nuclear plants we still have for interim i plants we still have for interim period — plants we still have for interim period until— plants we still have for interim period until we _ plants we still have for interim period until we have _ plants we still have for interim period until we have found i plants we still have for interim | period until we have found new energy— period until we have found new energy supplies _ period until we have found new energy supplies. we _ period until we have found new energy supplies. we have i period until we have found new| energy supplies. we have also, economically, _ energy supplies. we have also, economically, been _ energy supplies. we have also, economically, been talking i energy supplies. we have also, i economically, been talking about letting _ economically, been talking about letting germany— economically, been talking about letting germany go _ economically, been talking about letting germany go into - economically, been talking about letting germany go into bigger. economically, been talking about i letting germany go into bigger debt, which _ letting germany go into bigger debt, which is _ letting germany go into bigger debt, which is another— letting germany go into bigger debt, which is another completely- which is another completely unbelievable _ which is another completely unbelievable procedure. i which is another completelyl unbelievable procedure. this which is another completely. unbelievable procedure. this is which is another completely- unbelievable procedure. this is a country— unbelievable procedure. this is a country that _ unbelievable procedure. this is a country that was _ unbelievable procedure. this is a country that was to _ unbelievable procedure. this is a country that was to pay - unbelievable procedure. this is a country that was to pay homage i unbelievable procedure. this is a i country that was to pay homage to balance _ country that was to pay homage to balance budgets— country that was to pay homage to balance budgets and _ country that was to pay homage to balance budgets and so _ country that was to pay homage to balance budgets and so forth i country that was to pay homage to balance budgets and so forth and i country that was to pay homage to i balance budgets and so forth and now the finance _ balance budgets and so forth and now the finance minister— balance budgets and so forth and now the finance minister comes— balance budgets and so forth and now the finance minister comes and - balance budgets and so forth and now the finance minister comes and saysl the finance minister comes and says this is— the finance minister comes and says this is not— the finance minister comes and says this is not the — the finance minister comes and says this is not the flexibility, _ the finance minister comes and says this is not the flexibility, this- the finance minister comes and says this is not the flexibility, this is- this is not the flexibility, this is an investment _ this is not the flexibility, this is an investment in _ this is not the flexibility, this is an investment in our— this is not the flexibility, this is an investment in our future i this is not the flexibility, this is an investment in our future if. this is not the flexibility, this is. an investment in our future if we accept _ an investment in our future if we accept that _ an investment in our future if we accept that. and _ an investment in our future if we accept that. and last, _ an investment in our future if we accept that. and last, but - an investment in our future if we accept that. and last, but not i accept that. and last, but not least, — accept that. and last, but not least, we _ accept that. and last, but not least, we joined _ accept that. and last, but not least, we joined the - accept that. and last, but not| least, we joined the sanctions accept that. and last, but not i least, we joined the sanctions of the west— least, we joined the sanctions of the west including _ least, we joined the sanctions of the west including sanctions, i least, we joined the sanctions of. the west including sanctions, little exception — the west including sanctions, little exception for — the west including sanctions, little exception for germany, _ the west including sanctions, little exception for germany, for - the west including sanctions, little. exception for germany, for payment for the _ exception for germany, for payment for the gas _ exception for germany, for payment for the gas and _ exception for germany, for payment for the gas and oil— exception for germany, for payment for the gas and oil we _ exception for germany, for payment for the gas and oil we import- exception for germany, for payment for the gas and oil we import from . for the gas and oil we import from russia _ for the gas and oil we import from russia. , ., , ., , ., for the gas and oil we import from russia. , ., , ., , ., russia. given or germany are so depended. _ russia. given or germany are so depended. it _ russia. given or germany are so depended, it makes _ russia. given or germany are so depended, it makes it _ russia. given or germany are so depended, it makes it even i russia. given or germany are so| depended, it makes it even more extraordinary that they have been

prepared to go this far. absolutely. it is an unknown _ prepared to go this far. absolutely. it is an unknown territory. - prepared to go this far. absolutely. it is an unknown territory. it - prepared to go this far. absolutely. it is an unknown territory. it is i it is an unknown territory. it is terra _ it is an unknown territory. it is terra incognito. _ it is an unknown territory. it is terra incognito. the _ it is an unknown territory. it is terra incognito. the the - it is an unknown territory. it isl terra incognito. the the country it is an unknown territory. it is i terra incognito. the the country so afraid _ terra incognito. the the country so afraid of— terra incognito. the the country so afraid of doing _ terra incognito. the the country so afraid of doing anything _ terra incognito. the the country so afraid of doing anything out - terra incognito. the the country so afraid of doing anything out of i terra incognito. the the country so afraid of doing anything out of the | afraid of doing anything out of the ordinary— afraid of doing anything out of the ordinary has — afraid of doing anything out of the ordinary has gone _ afraid of doing anything out of the ordinary has gone ahead - afraid of doing anything out of the ordinary has gone ahead with i afraid of doing anything out of the ordinary has gone ahead with 2%,| afraid of doing anything out of the i ordinary has gone ahead with 2%, 3%, 20% and _ ordinary has gone ahead with 2%, 3%, 20% and more — ordinary has gone ahead with 2%, 3%, 20% and more. and _ ordinary has gone ahead with 2%, 3%, 20% and more. and it _ ordinary has gone ahead with 2%, 3%, 20% and more. and it is _ ordinary has gone ahead with 2%, 3%, 20% and more. and it is astonishing. i 20% and more. and it is astonishing. it's 20% and more. and it is astonishing. its action— 20% and more. and it is astonishing. it's action ended _ 20% and more. and it is astonishing. it's action ended in _ 20% and more. and it is astonishing. it's action ended in a _ 20% and more. and it is astonishing. it's action ended in a totally - it's action ended in a totally counter—productive - it's action ended in a totally counter—productive sort i it's action ended in a totally counter—productive sort of i it's action ended in a totally - counter—productive sort of fashion. he has— counter—productive sort of fashion. he has achieved _ counter—productive sort of fashion. he has achieved the _ counter—productive sort of fashion. he has achieved the opposite i counter—productive sort of fashion. he has achieved the opposite of. counter—productive sort of fashion. . he has achieved the opposite of what he wanted~ _ he has achieved the opposite of what he wanted. . ~ , he has achieved the opposite of what he wanted. w , ., . ,., he wanted. picking up on that point, the accusation _ he wanted. picking up on that point, the accusation that _ he wanted. picking up on that point, the accusation that russia _ he wanted. picking up on that point, the accusation that russia has - he wanted. picking up on that point, the accusation that russia has madei the accusation that russia has made is that listening but not hearing is the way the west had dealt with russia over the past few years and thatis russia over the past few years and that is that this resentment that may have contributed to this action. to some extent, through the russians have a point?— have a point? well, used to think the had have a point? well, used to think they had a _ have a point? well, used to think they had a point, _ have a point? well, used to think they had a point, actually, - have a point? well, used to think they had a point, actually, after. they had a point, actually, after 1991 were — they had a point, actually, after 1991 were marxism, leninism collapsed in russia and i did think, in those _ collapsed in russia and i did think, in those days, that there was quite a lot of—

in those days, that there was quite a lot of triumphalism on the western side, _ a lot of triumphalism on the western side, generally, but particularly on the american side, that clinton and 0ther— the american side, that clinton and other people seem to want to shower and demonstrate to everybody that russia _ and demonstrate to everybody that russia had been defeated, notjust simply— russia had been defeated, notjust simply had changed its ways. but now, _ simply had changed its ways. but now, listening to and looking at the kind of— now, listening to and looking at the kind of things that are being said in moscow, i am not sure quite weather— in moscow, i am not sure quite weather the leader west's parted all this is— weather the leader west's parted all this is so— weather the leader west's parted all this is so terribly important to putih — this is so terribly important to putih i— this is so terribly important to putin. i think he hasjust got it into— putin. i think he hasjust got it into his — putin. i think he hasjust got it into his head that nato is an aggressive state, an aggressive grouri. — aggressive state, an aggressive group, that america wants to break up group, that america wants to break up russia — group, that america wants to break up russia. no evidence for any of this, _ up russia. no evidence for any of this, i_ up russia. no evidence for any of this, i have — up russia. no evidence for any of this, i have to say, but that is what — this, i have to say, but that is what he — this, i have to say, but that is what he seems to think. and basically— what he seems to think. and basically has this deep, deep

resentment against ukraine for having — resentment against ukraine for having once been part of the russian family. _ having once been part of the russian family. as _ having once been part of the russian family. as it— having once been part of the russian family, as it were, and now deciding to turn_ family, as it were, and now deciding to tum its— family, as it were, and now deciding to turn its back on russia and move away _ to turn its back on russia and move away and — to turn its back on russia and move away and i— to turn its back on russia and move away. and i think we're really seeing — away. and i think we're really seeing that punishment for that decisi0h~ — seeing that punishment for that decision. putin has had weeks, months — decision. putin has had weeks, months of— decision. putin has had weeks, months of isolation for covid. i think— months of isolation for covid. i think he — months of isolation for covid. i think he has beenjust working away on all— think he has beenjust working away on all this— think he has beenjust working away on all this and a few people that could _ on all this and a few people that could have access to him have been encouraging him in that.— encouraging him in that. when you think of that _ encouraging him in that. when you think of that chilling _ encouraging him in that. when you think of that chilling speech - encouraging him in that. when you think of that chilling speech he - think of that chilling speech he gave _ think of that chilling speech he gave him — think of that chilling speech he gave him television, _ think of that chilling speech he gave him television, put- think of that chilling speech he gave him television, put into l think of that chilling speech he . gave him television, put into this two days— gave him television, put into this two days ago— gave him television, put into this two days ago and _ gave him television, put into this two days ago and he _ gave him television, put into this two days ago and he said - gave him television, put into this two days ago and he said he - gave him television, put into this two days ago and he said he is i gave him television, put into this. two days ago and he said he is not being _ two days ago and he said he is not being moved — two days ago and he said he is not being moved from _ two days ago and he said he is not being moved from his _ two days ago and he said he is not being moved from his conviction. two days ago and he said he is not i being moved from his conviction but the two _ being moved from his conviction but the two countries _ being moved from his conviction but the two countries are _ being moved from his conviction but the two countries are siblings, - being moved from his conviction but the two countries are siblings, as. the two countries are siblings, as it were, of— the two countries are siblings, as it were, of one— the two countries are siblings, as it were, of one nation, _ the two countries are siblings, as it were, of one nation, and - the two countries are siblings, as it were, of one nation, and to - the two countries are siblings, as. it were, of one nation, and to think that when— it were, of one nation, and to think that when that _ it were, of one nation, and to think that when that is _ it were, of one nation, and to think that when that is his _ it were, of one nation, and to think that when that is his awareness - it were, of one nation, and to thinkl that when that is his awareness that they belong — that when that is his awareness that they belong together— that when that is his awareness that they belong together to _ that when that is his awareness that they belong together to punish - that when that is his awareness that| they belong together to punish them in this— they belong together to punish them in this atrocious _ they belong together to punish them in this atrocious fashion _ they belong together to punish them in this atrocious fashion is, - in this atrocious fashion is, reminds— in this atrocious fashion is, reminds me _ in this atrocious fashion is, reminds me of— in this atrocious fashion is, reminds me of a _ in this atrocious fashion is, reminds me of a sort - in this atrocious fashion is, reminds me of a sort of- in this atrocious fashion is, i reminds me of a sort of mad in this atrocious fashion is, - reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone — reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone who _ reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone who is, _ reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone who is, by— reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone who is, by hook - reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone who is, by hook or-

reminds me of a sort of mad reaction of someone who is, by hook or by. of someone who is, by hook or by crook. _ of someone who is, by hook or by crook, determined _ of someone who is, by hook or by crook, determined to _ of someone who is, by hook or by crook, determined to master- of someone who is, by hook or by crook, determined to master his. crook, determined to master his power— crook, determined to master his power over— crook, determined to master his power over his _ crook, determined to master his power over his neighbouring - crook, determined to master his- power over his neighbouring country. jeffrey— power over his neighbouring country. jeffrey waite — power over his neighbouring country. jeffrey waite raises _ power over his neighbouring country. jeffrey waite raises the _ power over his neighbouring country. jeffrey waite raises the question - power over his neighbouring country. jeffrey waite raises the question of. jeffrey waite raises the question of what can be done about it? in a slightly longer term perspective, and the us permanent representative of nato was talking about changing as long term force posture. that implies the alliance does not see this as a one—off. this is ukraine and that is it. they worry about the implications for that whole broader section of countries immediately around russia and what lesson putin will learn and therefore what the west will learn from that. it will learn and therefore what the west will learn from that. it really icks u- west will learn from that. it really picks up on _ west will learn from that. it really picks up on the — west will learn from that. it really picks up on the theme _ west will learn from that. it really picks up on the theme is - west will learn from that. it really picks up on the theme is that - west will learn from that. it reallyi picks up on the theme is that john picks up on the theme is thatjohn and thomas have talked about. this is the law of unintended consequences. just because you have an objective and what does not mean you will actually achieve that objective the way you think. and i think nato, is extraordinary what has happened, notjust to germany and with the global sanctions but look at nato. the french president

was dismissing it as on death's door. donald trump said it was irrelevant. and now it has come back and found its original purpose which is bringing western countries together to defend themselves against the threat of what was the soviet union and now russia. the consensus is extraordinary. you are now seeing western european countries sending troops to the border of eastern european countries, jets, to support the ukrainian army. not with western and not with european pilots, i should say, that is the question, though, nato can do a lot of defending and nato can do a lot of defending and nato may well expand as a result of this is john nato may well expand as a result of this isjohn seddon to sweden and finland, potentially even, one day, to ukraine, many years from now as we figure out how this settles. but, of course, the problem is, they don't want to escalate. they don't want to go to the next level and

send european trips and to support this far. the outcome, long term, emotions are high. and of course people support nato. longer term, will this last? it may well have some after—effect but, you know, five or ten years from now nato may once again be marginalised but that being said, people may not forget. this is a very traumatic moment. i'd like you said emotions are high but i've spoken to people in the state to say that actually, public opinion is not greatly moved by this at the moment. when they saw american troops come back from afghanistan only in the summer, whether there is any desire in america to see those troops who have been sent over at the moment mobilised? no, i think thatis the moment mobilised? no, i think that is fair. i don't think there is. i think that the trauma of those forever wards in particular the afghanistan is very fresh. and i think, also, there is an american perception that this is a european war. and it is a european problem.

in europe is very well equipped to deal with it. america is not rushing to fly across the ocean and western and eastern europe to support ukraine with bombers and troops. i think that is very fair to say. the difficulty then. _ think that is very fair to say. the difficulty then, if _ think that is very fair to say. the difficulty then, if it is europe's problem, how does europe express its determination? sanctions are one tool. they will go so far but in the end, if an aggressor has won territories to his or her aggression, and other countries accept that as the new status quo, then, actually, they are not able to defend very much? this then, actually, they are not able to defend very much?— then, actually, they are not able to defend very much? as has been said, the are defend very much? as has been said, they are united _ defend very much? as has been said, they are united in _ defend very much? as has been said, they are united in strengthening - defend very much? as has been said, they are united in strengthening the l they are united in strengthening the alliance _ they are united in strengthening the alliance that, — they are united in strengthening the alliance. that, in— they are united in strengthening the alliance. that, in itself, _ they are united in strengthening the alliance. that, in itself, is— they are united in strengthening the alliance. that, in itself, is a - they are united in strengthening the alliance. that, in itself, is a huge i alliance. that, in itself, is a huge plus— alliance. that, in itself, is a huge plus in— alliance. that, in itself, is a huge plus in the — alliance. that, in itself, is a huge plus in the european _ alliance. that, in itself, is a huge plus in the european nations - alliance. that, in itself, is a huge plus in the european nations will| plus in the european nations will continue — plus in the european nations will continue to— plus in the european nations will continue to debate _ plus in the european nations will continue to debate the _ plus in the european nations will continue to debate the cost - plus in the european nations will continue to debate the cost of. plus in the european nations will. continue to debate the cost of nato and so _ continue to debate the cost of nato and so forth — continue to debate the cost of nato and so forth if— continue to debate the cost of nato and so forth-— continue to debate the cost of nato and so forth. if an attacker member is an attack— and so forth. if an attacker member is an attack on _ and so forth. if an attacker member is an attack on all— and so forth. if an attacker member is an attack on all members, - and so forth. if an attacker member is an attack on all members, that i and so forth. if an attacker member is an attack on all members, that isj is an attack on all members, that is great if you are in the club but if you are outside the club then it is, at a time like this, it is

incredibly scary. if you want stability on the continent is that not something you have to address? you have to continue to set boundaries _ you have to continue to set boundaries for _ you have to continue to set boundaries for russia - you have to continue to set boundaries for russia and i you have to continue to set - boundaries for russia and putin to id boundaries for russia and putin to go across— boundaries for russia and putin to go across them _ boundaries for russia and putin to go across them and _ boundaries for russia and putin to go across them and start - boundaries for russia and putin to go across them and start to - boundaries for russia and putin to go across them and start to trip i go across them and start to trip wire _ go across them and start to trip wire occasion _ go across them and start to trip wire occasion which _ go across them and start to trip wire occasion which might - go across them and start to trip wire occasion which might leadi go across them and start to trip l wire occasion which might lead to something — wire occasion which might lead to something bigger. _ wire occasion which might lead to something bigger. in— wire occasion which might lead to something bigger. in that, - wire occasion which might lead to something bigger. in that, i- wire occasion which might lead to something bigger. in that, i have| wire occasion which might lead to . something bigger. in that, i have to say, something bigger. in that, i have to say. you _ something bigger. in that, i have to say. you have — something bigger. in that, i have to say. you have to— something bigger. in that, i have to say, you have to add _ something bigger. in that, i have to say, you have to add to _ something bigger. in that, i have to say, you have to add to your- say, you have to add to your military— say, you have to add to your military posture _ say, you have to add to your military posture and - say, you have to add to youri military posture and element say, you have to add to your. military posture and element of containment _ military posture and element of containment. you _ military posture and element of containment. you have - military posture and element of containment. you have got - military posture and element of containment. you have got to. military posture and element of - containment. you have got to make russia _ containment. you have got to make russia feel— containment. you have got to make russia feel the _ containment. you have got to make russia feel the price _ containment. you have got to make russia feel the price of— containment. you have got to make russia feel the price of her- containment. you have got to make russia feel the price of her actions. russia feel the price of her actions and so, _ russia feel the price of her actions and so, over— russia feel the price of her actions and so, over time, _ russia feel the price of her actions and so, overtime, hope— russia feel the price of her actions and so, over time, hope from - russia feel the price of her actions. and so, overtime, hope from inside russia, _ and so, overtime, hope from inside russia, protest— and so, overtime, hope from inside russia, protest coming _ and so, overtime, hope from inside russia, protest coming to _ russia, protest coming to ameliorate. _ russia, protest coming to ameliorate. it— russia, protest coming to ameliorate. it happened i russia, protest coming to i ameliorate. it happened over russia, protest coming to - ameliorate. it happened over the decades— ameliorate. it happened over the decades of— ameliorate. it happened over the decades of containment - ameliorate. it happened over the decades of containment in - ameliorate. it happened over the decades of containment in the i ameliorate. it happened over the . decades of containment in the first world _ decades of containment in the first world war— decades of containment in the first world war and _ decades of containment in the first world war and it— decades of containment in the first world war and it was _ decades of containment in the first world war and it was predicted - decades of containment in the first world war and it was predicted in. world war and it was predicted in 1947 that— world war and it was predicted in 1947 that russia _ world war and it was predicted in 1947 that russia eventually - world war and it was predicted in| 1947 that russia eventually would fall of— 1947 that russia eventually would fall of its — 1947 that russia eventually would fall of its own _ 1947 that russia eventually would fall of its own weakness - 1947 that russia eventually would i fall of its own weakness internally. it fall of its own weakness internally. it cannot _ fall of its own weakness internally. it cannot sustain _ fall of its own weakness internally. it cannot sustain its _ fall of its own weakness internally. it cannot sustain its domination. . it cannot sustain its domination. europeans— it cannot sustain its domination. europeans are _ it cannot sustain its domination. europeans are faced _ it cannot sustain its domination. europeans are faced with - it cannot sustain its domination. i europeans are faced with needing it cannot sustain its domination. - europeans are faced with needing to set boundaries — europeans are faced with needing to set boundaries for— europeans are faced with needing to set boundaries for putin, _ europeans are faced with needing to set boundaries for putin, increased. set boundaries for putin, increased sanctions _ set boundaries for putin, increased sanctions or— set boundaries for putin, increased sanctions or whatever. _

set boundaries for putin, increased sanctions or whatever. and - set boundaries for putin, increased sanctions or whatever. and contain their— sanctions or whatever. and contain their limits — sanctions or whatever. and contain their limits. and _ sanctions or whatever. and contain their limits. and hope _ sanctions or whatever. and contain their limits. and hope that, - their limits. and hope that, eventually, _ their limits. and hope that, eventually, no _ their limits. and hope that, eventually, no further- their limits. and hope that, - eventually, no further encroachment by russia _ eve ntually, no further encroachment by russia will— eventually, no further encroachment by russia will occur. _ eventually, no further encroachment by russia will occur. we _ eventually, no further encroachment by russia will occur. we can - eventually, no further encroachment by russia will occur. we can only - by russia will occur. we can only hope _ by russia will occur. we can only hope for — by russia will occur. we can only hope for the _ by russia will occur. we can only hope for the best. _ by russia will occur. we can only hope for the best. we _ by russia will occur. we can only hope for the best. we cannot- by russia will occur. we can only hope for the best. we cannot be| by russia will occur. we can only - hope for the best. we cannot be sure but if— hope for the best. we cannot be sure but if we _ hope for the best. we cannot be sure but if we insist— hope for the best. we cannot be sure but if we insist on— hope for the best. we cannot be sure but if we insist on setting _ hope for the best. we cannot be sure but if we insist on setting the - but if we insist on setting the boundaries _ but if we insist on setting the boundaries of— but if we insist on setting the boundaries of that, _ but if we insist on setting the boundaries of that, and - but if we insist on setting the boundaries of that, and keep| but if we insist on setting the - boundaries of that, and keep eating it for russia, — boundaries of that, and keep eating it for russia, maybe _ boundaries of that, and keep eating it for russia, maybe we _ boundaries of that, and keep eating it for russia, maybe we might - boundaries of that, and keep eating j it for russia, maybe we might deter putin— it for russia, maybe we might deter putin from _ it for russia, maybe we might deter putin from daring _ it for russia, maybe we might deter putin from daring further. _ it for russia, maybe we might deter putin from daring further. i- it for russia, maybe we might deter putin from daring further.— putin from daring further. i really want our putin from daring further. i really want your thoughts _ putin from daring further. i really want your thoughts on _ putin from daring further. i really want your thoughts on that. - putin from daring further. i really want your thoughts on that. i - putin from daring further. i really i want your thoughts on that. i think, actuall , want your thoughts on that. i think, actually. the _ want your thoughts on that. i think, actually, the best _ want your thoughts on that. i think, actually, the best hope _ want your thoughts on that. i think, actually, the best hope is _ want your thoughts on that. i think, actually, the best hope is that - want your thoughts on that. i think, actually, the best hope is that what | actually, the best hope is that what was said _ actually, the best hope is that what was said is— actually, the best hope is that what was said is right. the whole social structure — was said is right. the whole social structure of — was said is right. the whole social structure of platonist russia, like, as with _ structure of platonist russia, like, as with stalinist russia and so on, well— as with stalinist russia and so on, we'lliust — as with stalinist russia and so on, we'lljust simply not be able to take _ we'lljust simply not be able to take the — we'lljust simply not be able to take the weight of the top man's desires — take the weight of the top man's desires and wishes and it will come to a juddering halt. desires and wishes and it will come to ajuddering halt. i desires and wishes and it will come to a juddering halt. i cannot see much _ to a juddering halt. i cannot see much ape — to a juddering halt. i cannot see much ape beyond that because, actually. — much ape beyond that because, actually, untilthe

much ape beyond that because, actually, until the last ten or 12 years. — actually, until the last ten or 12 years, untilthe actually, until the last ten or 12 years, until the adventure actually, until the last ten or 12 years, untilthe adventure in actually, until the last ten or 12 years, until the adventure in crimea in 2014— years, until the adventure in crimea in 2014 where russia simply walked in 2014 where russia simply walked in and _ in 2014 where russia simply walked in and took— in 2014 where russia simply walked in and took it over, with relatively little _ in and took it over, with relatively little serious response from the west. _ little serious response from the west, personally i think that is what _ west, personally i think that is what lies— west, personally i think that is what lies in the hinterland of this particular— what lies in the hinterland of this particular attack. until what lies in the hinterland of this particularattack. untilall what lies in the hinterland of this particular attack. until all of that kind of— particular attack. until all of that kind of thing is seen to be a matter of the _ kind of thing is seen to be a matter of the past — kind of thing is seen to be a matter of the past instead of the present, for russia — of the past instead of the present, for russia as well as everything else. _ for russia as well as everything else. i— for russia as well as everything else, i think we have got problems. geoffrey _ else, i think we have got problems. geoffrey l— else, i think we have got problems. geoffre . ~ else, i think we have got problems. geoffre . ,, . , . geoffrey. i think also there is an eauation geoffrey. i think also there is an equation internally _ geoffrey. i think also there is an equation internally and - geoffrey. i think also there is an equation internally and russia. | geoffrey. i think also there is an . equation internally and russia. one of the, i think one of the agendas in crashing the russian economy and very hard sanctions and being such hardship is it destabilises the equation to power. russians have lived better in the last 20 years

than ever. they have material goods, they have been able to travel to the west and take vacations if they are middle—class and they really have a kind of quasi—european. the trade—off has been they don't get involved in putting's increasingly tyrannical despotic politics. you can live well if you let me govern the way i want. that was the trade—off. well, that has gone now. they are now plunging into hardship, they are rolling back to 1998 when they are rolling back to 1998 when the country was in a crisis. when life was very hard and suddenly, that authority, has gone. the hope may be that the people rise up against putin and he is overthrown or assassinated or something like that. i think there is no evidence that. i think there is no evidence that can happen. he has such ion control but i would say, one of the consequences of this that seems almost inevitable, he is not only in danger of destroying ukraine but he

may well be destroying his own country. russia is such a pariah state, and just a moment happened to me today that i found incredibly moving. i bumped into a russian woman here in london who i know well and have worked with and just casually said, how are you? and she burst into tears and she said, i feel so ashamed. ifeel so burst into tears and she said, i feel so ashamed. i feel so guilty. burst into tears and she said, i feel so ashamed. ifeel so guilty. i left russia because it was such a hard place to live but this is something else. i don't know what to do. and i think this is a feeling thatis do. and i think this is a feeling that is increasingly shared by russians who are just observers in their own country's maniacal mission here. and it is going to leave russia in a terrible, terrible spot. economically, politically and marginalised.— economically, politically and martinalised. . ~ marginalised. the thing that killed man in

marginalised. the thing that killed many in the _ marginalised. the thing that killed many in the west _ marginalised. the thing that killed many in the west was _ marginalised. the thing that killed many in the west was last - marginalised. the thing that killed l many in the west was last weekend when it was indicated that president putin had given the order to put as nuclear forces on putin had given the order to put as nuclearforces on a putin had given the order to put as nuclear forces on a high level of alert which reduces the time frame for potential use of weapons. there have been suggestions in recent weeks that may be, the russian military�*s attitude to nuclear has changed and they see some limited circumstances in which there could be a tactical advantage of deploying a knowing that the other side will not retaliate in that way and that shift from it being a deterrent. that could be quite serious? absolutely chilling. and i am afraid. — absolutely chilling. and i am afraid. i_ absolutely chilling. and i am afraid, i think that there is a really— afraid, i think that there is a really strong chance that, if putin does _ really strong chance that, if putin does not — really strong chance that, if putin does not get his way quickly, and he is not _ does not get his way quickly, and he is not getting it, clearly, that he may decide to use some kind of tactical— may decide to use some kind of tactical nuclear weapon in order to terrify— tactical nuclear weapon in order to terrify zelensky and the ukrainian government and make them simply surrender~ — government and make them simply surrender. and what the west does then i_ surrender. and what the west does then i think— surrender. and what the west does then i think is very, very worrying. there _ then i think is very, very worrying. there is— then i think is very, very worrying. there is only— then i think is very, very worrying. there is only one trump card and it is one _ there is only one trump card and it is one that — there is only one trump card and it is one that we have not mentioned yet is _ is one that we have not mentioned yet is china — is one that we have not mentioned yet is china. the chinese must be

getting _ yet is china. the chinese must be getting very worried indeed about putin _ getting very worried indeed about putin. their whole policy is based on growth — putin. their whole policy is based on growth of the international economic— on growth of the international economic community. eden is doing everything _ economic community. eden is doing everything to destroy that. is it, maybe. — everything to destroy that. is it, maybe, possible that china willjust step in— maybe, possible that china willjust step in and — maybe, possible that china willjust step in and say, look, no more of this? _ step in and say, look, no more of this? ., . ., this? sorted out. i want to come back to you _ this? sorted out. i want to come back to you on — this? sorted out. i want to come back to you on this _ this? sorted out. i want to come back to you on this nuclear- back to you on this nuclear question. the former ambassador to russia when it was negotiated with the new start treaties, understanding some of the thinking is that, although it is a possibility, he still thinks it is a low possibility of some kind of use of a nuclear weapon. nonetheless, it must worry the white house if talk is even being considered in military circles in russia.— circles in russia. well, you know, the whole — circles in russia. well, you know, the whole principle _ circles in russia. well, you know, the whole principle of _ circles in russia. well, you know, the whole principle of russia, - the whole principle of russia, format the soviet union having

nuclear arms in the us have a nuclear arms in the us have a nuclear arms in the us have a nuclear arms was this mutually assured destruction that if up we'll blow you up. we will send the magic before yours land and we are all going to be gone so that was kind of the tacit understanding, the cold war that led to thousands upon thousands of nuclear arms being aimed across the world at one another. and that is really what kept the peace. that remains the case. this is really the first time any post—cold war area where we have seen this kind of escalation. the biden white house is very clearly signalling we are not going to be drawn into this tit for tat. and putin escalated the level of alert on his nuclearforces, biden said, we are not doing anything to do may be commenced with the, they are. but his point was, let's not raise the temperature here. let's not aggravate what is already a very severe situation by threatening to

throw nuclear weapons at each is right. i think whatjohn says i think is kind of the worst nightmare situation. if putin feels he has been defeated, which, for him, is the same meaning as humiliated, that when he might feel the need to lash out and say, damp to you. fire the nukes and so be it. putin clearly does not care. it is his own vanity thatis does not care. it is his own vanity that is driving this. it is his own hubris that is driving this. and some people think he may be mad. i think that might be too simple. he isjust maniacal.— think that might be too simple. he isjust maniacal. thomas, you were born in 1940- _ isjust maniacal. thomas, you were born in 1940. in _ isjust maniacal. thomas, you were born in 1940. in the _ isjust maniacal. thomas, you were born in 1940. in the earliest - isjust maniacal. thomas, you were| born in 1940. in the earliest months of the war. and you were born in danzig. it had been a free city, an international city and suddenly that all came to an end. from your perspective, how does this moment feel? ~ . perspective, how does this moment feel? ~ , _ feel? well, i must say, the destruction _ feel? well, i must say, the destruction of _ feel? well, i must say, the destruction of danzig - feel? well, i must say, the destruction of danzig in - feel? well, i must say, the|

destruction of danzig in 45, feel? well, i must say, the i destruction of danzig in 45, i feel? well, i must say, the - destruction of danzig in 45, i have always— destruction of danzig in 45, i have always assumed _ destruction of danzig in 45, i have always assumed was _ destruction of danzig in 45, i have always assumed was the - destruction of danzig in 45, i have always assumed was the result. destruction of danzig in 45, i have always assumed was the result of| destruction of danzig in 45, i have i always assumed was the result of hit the's boys _ always assumed was the result of hit the's boys against _ always assumed was the result of hit the's boys against russia _ always assumed was the result of hit the's boys against russia in- always assumed was the result of hit the's boys against russia in the - the's boys against russia in the world — the's boys against russia in the world he — the's boys against russia in the world he was— the's boys against russia in the world. he was the _ the's boys against russia in the world. he was the pariah - the's boys against russia in the world. he was the pariah of- the's boys against russia in the - world. he was the pariah of mankind and in _ world. he was the pariah of mankind and in a _ world. he was the pariah of mankind and in a sense. — world. he was the pariah of mankind and in a sense, although _ world. he was the pariah of mankind and in a sense, although it— world. he was the pariah of mankind and in a sense, although it was- world. he was the pariah of mankind and in a sense, although it was not. and in a sense, although it was not per se. _ and in a sense, although it was not per se. war. — and in a sense, although it was not per se. war. it— and in a sense, although it was not per se. war. it was— and in a sense, although it was not per se, war, it was a _ and in a sense, although it was not per se, war, it was a terrible - and in a sense, although it was not per se, war, it was a terrible thing | per se, war, it was a terrible thing to happen — per se, war, it was a terrible thing to happen it— per se, war, it was a terrible thing to happen. it was— per se, war, it was a terrible thing to happen. it was not— per se, war, it was a terrible thing to happen. it was not an _ per se, war, it was a terrible thing to happen. it was not an atrocity. to happen. it was not an atrocity because — to happen. it was not an atrocity because russia _ to happen. it was not an atrocity because russia defended - to happen. it was not an atrocity because russia defended itself. because russia defended itself against — because russia defended itself against an— because russia defended itself against an aggressor, - because russia defended itselfj against an aggressor, germany because russia defended itself- against an aggressor, germany and in the course _ against an aggressor, germany and in the course of— against an aggressor, germany and in the course of it. — against an aggressor, germany and in the course of it, destroyed _ against an aggressor, germany and in the course of it, destroyed all- against an aggressor, germany and in the course of it, destroyed all the - the course of it, destroyed all the forehead — the course of it, destroyed all the forehead including _ the course of it, destroyed all the forehead including my— the course of it, destroyed all the| forehead including my hometown. the course of it, destroyed all the - forehead including my hometown. the difference _ forehead including my hometown. the difference to _ forehead including my hometown. the difference to the _ forehead including my hometown. the difference to the modern _ forehead including my hometown. the difference to the modern day- forehead including my hometown. the difference to the modern day is - forehead including my hometown. the difference to the modern day is that l difference to the modern day is that the ukrainian— difference to the modern day is that the ukrainian people _ difference to the modern day is that the ukrainian people and _ difference to the modern day is that the ukrainian people and ukraine i difference to the modern day is that the ukrainian people and ukraine as a country— the ukrainian people and ukraine as a country is — the ukrainian people and ukraine as a country is a — the ukrainian people and ukraine as a country is a peaceful, _ a country is a peaceful, peace—loving, - a country is a peaceful, peace—loving, innocentj a country is a peaceful, _ peace—loving, innocent neighbour who has been _ peace—loving, innocent neighbour who has been overruled _ peace—loving, innocent neighbour who has been overruled by— peace—loving, innocent neighbour who has been overruled by an— peace—loving, innocent neighbour who has been overruled by an aggressive . has been overruled by an aggressive dictator— has been overruled by an aggressive dictator like — has been overruled by an aggressive dictator like putin. _ has been overruled by an aggressive dictator like putin. and _ has been overruled by an aggressive dictator like putin. and so _ has been overruled by an aggressive dictator like putin. and so he - dictator like putin. and so he commits— dictator like putin. and so he commits atrocities _ dictator like putin. and so he commits atrocities on - dictator like putin. and so he commits atrocities on a - dictator like putin. and so he commits atrocities on a level| dictator like putin. and so he - commits atrocities on a level which, crimes— commits atrocities on a level which, crimes against — commits atrocities on a level which, crimes against humanity _ commits atrocities on a level which, crimes against humanity which - crimes against humanity which convulsed _ crimes against humanity which convulsed mankind _ crimes against humanity which convulsed mankind and - crimes against humanity which . convulsed mankind and therefore crimes against humanity which - convulsed mankind and therefore hit me on— convulsed mankind and therefore hit me on a _ convulsed mankind and therefore hit me on a deeper— convulsed mankind and therefore hit me on a deeper level— convulsed mankind and therefore hit me on a deeper level of— convulsed mankind and therefore hit me on a deeper level of sensitivity l me on a deeper level of sensitivity than even — me on a deeper level of sensitivity than even the _ me on a deeper level of sensitivity than even the destruction - me on a deeper level of sensitivity than even the destruction of- me on a deeper level of sensitivity than even the destruction of my i me on a deeper level of sensitivity l than even the destruction of my own hometown — than even the destruction of my own hometown and _ than even the destruction of my own hometown and i_ than even the destruction of my own hometown. and i cannot— than even the destruction of my own hometown. and i cannot sort- than even the destruction of my own hometown. and i cannot sort of- hometown. and i cannot sort of compare — hometown. and i cannot sort of compare the _ hometown. and i cannot sort of compare the two _ hometown. and i cannot sort of compare the two issues. - hometown. and i cannot sort of compare the two issues. i- hometown. and i cannot sort of| compare the two issues. i grieve hometown. and i cannot sort of- compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian _ compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian is — compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian is more _ compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian is more than _ compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian is more than i _ compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian is more than i grieve - compare the two issues. i grieve for ukrainian is more than i grieve for. ukrainian is more than i grieve for the last— ukrainian is more than i grieve for the last of— ukrainian is more than i grieve for the last of my— ukrainian is more than i grieve for the last of my home _ ukrainian is more than i grieve for the last of my home time - ukrainian is more than i grieve forj the last of my home time because they are _ the last of my home time because they are suffering _ the last of my home time because

they are suffering untold - the last of my home time because | they are suffering untold atrocities and crime — they are suffering untold atrocities and crime for— they are suffering untold atrocities and crime. for which _ they are suffering untold atrocities and crime. for which there - they are suffering untold atrocities and crime. for which there is- they are suffering untold atrocities and crime. for which there is no. they are suffering untold atrocities l and crime. for which there is no way to explain— and crime. for which there is no way to explain it — and crime. for which there is no way to explain it. and _ and crime. for which there is no way to explain it. and i— and crime. for which there is no way to explain it. and i think— and crime. for which there is no way to explain it. and i think it _ and crime. for which there is no way to explain it. and i think it goes - to explain it. and i think it goes deeper— to explain it. and i think it goes deeper nowadays— to explain it. and i think it goes deeper nowadays than - to explain it. and i think it goes deeper nowadays than anything| deeper nowadays than anything experienced _ deeper nowadays than anything experienced when _ deeper nowadays than anything experienced when we _ deeper nowadays than anything experienced when we became i deeper nowadays than anything - experienced when we became refugees to leave _ experienced when we became refugees to leave danzig — experienced when we became refugees to leave danzig under— experienced when we became refugees to leave danzig under traces _ to leave danzig under traces circumstances _ to leave danzig under traces circumstances and _ to leave danzig under traces circumstances and so - to leave danzig under traces circumstances and so forth. | to leave danzig under traces. circumstances and so forth. it to leave danzig under traces - circumstances and so forth. it is a bil circumstances and so forth. it is a big event— circumstances and so forth. it is a big event at— circumstances and so forth. it is a big event at the _ circumstances and so forth. it is a big event at the moment - circumstances and so forth. it is a big event at the moment and - circumstances and so forth. it is a big event at the moment and thatj circumstances and so forth. it is a l big event at the moment and that it is cannot— big event at the moment and that it is cannot compare _ big event at the moment and that it is cannot compare because - big event at the moment and that it is cannot compare because theirs i big event at the moment and that it is cannot compare because theirs is| is cannot compare because theirs is an innocent— is cannot compare because theirs is an innocent country— is cannot compare because theirs is an innocent country which - is cannot compare because theirs is an innocent country which wanted l an innocent country which wanted nothing _ an innocent country which wanted nothing else _ an innocent country which wanted nothing else but— an innocent country which wanted nothing else but to _ an innocent country which wanted nothing else but to be _ an innocent country which wanted nothing else but to be a - an innocent country which wanted nothing else but to be a free - an innocent country which wanted nothing else but to be a free and| nothing else but to be a free and democratic— nothing else but to be a free and democratic neighbour— nothing else but to be a free and democratic neighbour and - nothing else but to be a free and democratic neighbour and for - nothing else but to be a free andi democratic neighbour and for that nothing else but to be a free and . democratic neighbour and for that is being _ democratic neighbour and for that is being punished _ democratic neighbour and for that is being punished in— democratic neighbour and for that is being punished in the _ democratic neighbour and for that is being punished in the most- democratic neighbour and for that is. being punished in the most inhumane, atrocious— being punished in the most inhumane, atrocious manner~ _ being punished in the most inhumane, atrocious manner. we _ being punished in the most inhumane, atrocious manner. we must— being punished in the most inhumane, atrocious manner. we must insist - being punished in the most inhumane, atrocious manner. we must insist on l atrocious manner. we must insist on making _ atrocious manner. we must insist on making pariah — atrocious manner. we must insist on making pariah of— atrocious manner. we must insist on making pariah of the _ atrocious manner. we must insist on making pariah of the world _ atrocious manner. we must insist on making pariah of the world as - atrocious manner. we must insist on making pariah of the world as hitleri making pariah of the world as hitler was in _ making pariah of the world as hitler was in his— making pariah of the world as hitler was in his day _ making pariah of the world as hitler was in his day. that— making pariah of the world as hitler was in his day. that is— making pariah of the world as hitler was in his day. that is the _ making pariah of the world as hitler was in his day. that is the only- making pariah of the world as hitler was in his day. that is the only way| was in his day. that is the only way to remind _ was in his day. that is the only way to remind russians _ was in his day. that is the only way to remind russians and _ was in his day. that is the only way to remind russians and the - was in his day. that is the only way to remind russians and the rest. was in his day. that is the only way to remind russians and the rest of| to remind russians and the rest of the world — to remind russians and the rest of the world that _ to remind russians and the rest of the world that there _ to remind russians and the rest of the world that there is _ to remind russians and the rest of the world that there is a _ to remind russians and the rest of the world that there is a limit - to remind russians and the rest of the world that there is a limit to l the world that there is a limit to what _ the world that there is a limit to what you — the world that there is a limit to what you can _ the world that there is a limit to what you can do _ the world that there is a limit to what you can do as _ the world that there is a limit to what you can do as a _ the world that there is a limit to what you can do as a criminal. l what you can do as a criminal. determined _ what you can do as a criminal. determined on— what you can do as a criminal. determined on having - what you can do as a criminal. determined on having your. what you can do as a criminal. . determined on having your way. what you can do as a criminal. - determined on having your way. you cannot _ determined on having your way. you cannot have — determined on having your way. you cannot have it— determined on having your way. you cannot have it all— determined on having your way. you cannot have it all your— determined on having your way. you cannot have it all your way. - determined on having your way. you cannot have it all your way. it- cannot have it all your way. it going — cannot have it all your way. it going to _ cannot have it all your way. it going to be _ cannot have it all your way. it going to be a _ cannot have it all your way. it going to be a price _ cannot have it all your way. it going to be a price to - cannot have it all your way. it going to be a price to pay. . cannot have it all your way. it. going to be a price to pay. and cannot have it all your way. it- going to be a price to pay. and the degradation— going to be a price to pay. and the degradation of— going to be a price to pay. and the degradation of russia _ going to be a price to pay. and the degradation of russia is _ going to be a price to pay. and the degradation of russia is a - going to be a price to pay. and the degradation of russia is a sad - degradation of russia is a sad coralie — degradation of russia is a sad coralie of— degradation of russia is a sad coralie of all— degradation of russia is a sad

coralie of all this. _ degradation of russia is a sad coralie of all this. it _ degradation of russia is a sad coralie of all this. it is- degradation of russia is a sad coralie of all this. it is put- degradation of russia is a sad coralie of all this. it is put in. coralie of all this. it is put in first— coralie of all this. it is put in first and _ coralie of all this. it is put in first and foremost _ coralie of all this. it is put in first and foremost who - coralie of all this. it is put in first and foremost who has l coralie of all this. it is put inl first and foremost who has to coralie of all this. it is put in- first and foremost who has to be hit hard to— first and foremost who has to be hit hard to remind _ first and foremost who has to be hit hard to remind him _ first and foremost who has to be hit hard to remind him that _ first and foremost who has to be hit hard to remind him that nothing - first and foremost who has to be hit| hard to remind him that nothing will io hard to remind him that nothing will go without— hard to remind him that nothing will go without punishment. _ hard to remind him that nothing will go without punishment. in - hard to remind him that nothing will go without punishment.— go without punishment. in our last minute, go without punishment. in our last minute. jeffrey. — go without punishment. in our last minute, jeffrey, what _ go without punishment. in our last minute, jeffrey, what price - go without punishment. in our last minute, jeffrey, what price do - go without punishment. in our last minute, jeffrey, what price do you| minute, jeffrey, what price do you think russia could pay for this? i think russia could pay for this? i think, as i said earlier, think russia could pay for this? 1 think, as i said earlier, enormous. it is catastrophic for the average russian person who does not want this to happen. i think russia is a pariah state. russia is cut off economically. the standard of living absolutely collapsing. the western europe, germany in particular weaning itself off russian oil and gas as has one for decades or years. i do not see russia recovering for a long time. i think what thomas says, this has been provoked by their leader and the real tragedy is what is happening in ukraine and whatever we think it has to be stopped and i fear it will get much more horrific

before that happens.— fear it will get much more horrific before that happens. thank you all very much- — before that happens. thank you all very much. more _ before that happens. thank you all very much. more from _ before that happens. thank you all very much. more from dateline - before that happens. thank you all very much. more from dateline at| before that happens. thank you all i very much. more from dateline at the same time next weekend. goodbye. good evening. it has been a day of mixed fortunes for many. we have seen quite a lot of cloud around and, yes, at times, it has been wet. this was lincolnshire this afternoon. it never really progressed above that low cloud, misty, murky story and there's been rain just fringing away from eastern scotland, but certainly sitting to the east of the pennines, down into the south—east corner. now, behind that front, there was quite a clearance and there were some lovely spells of sunshine to be found. this was cumbria just a few hours ago.

and it looks likely that that drier and brighter story is going to win out as we go through the weekend. so, certainly drier. a little bit more sunshine around, but overnight frost and fog could be an issue as we go through the weekend. now, over the next few hours, that weather front is going to grind to a halt across the far south—east corner, but high pressure builds in behind, and that's going to keep those skies clear and temperatures are going to fall away like a stone across scotland, northern ireland, northern england and parts of wales. here, we'll see temperatures just below freezing. down into the south—east corner, underneath that cloud and those outbreaks of rain, temperatures holding up at around 5 or 6 degrees. but once again, it's going to start off rather grey, drab and dreary, i'm afraid, and some of that rain may welljust drift a little bit further west as we go through the afternoon. best of the sunshine, then, to start off our weekend, certainly the further north and west you are. bit more of a breeze at times and temperatures likely to hold up at about a maximum of 10 degrees, so that is just a little bit under par for this time of year.

now, as we move into sunday, that high pressure hopefully starts to establish itself a little bit more across the country, and finally that nuisance weather front that we've seen for the last couple of days really decays and eases away. bit more of a breeze, though, across the south, and that could just drive in a little more cloud, particularly first thing in the morning, but hopefully that cloud will thinn and break into the afternoon. and temperatures should peak, in the drier, brighter moments, around 8 or 9 degrees. now, as we move out of sunday into monday morning, it's certainly worth bearing in mind that, with those clear skies, the temperatures are going to fall away. it is going to be a cold and frosty start for many first thing on monday morning, but monday into tuesday, dry, settled and sunny for most, but those temperatures on the chilly side for the time of year.

this is bbc news with the headlines.... russia steps up its bombardment of large parts of ukraine, as nato warns the conflict, is about to get worse. we'll be reporting from inside the country's second biggest city, harkeev, where residential buildings have been reduced to rubble, by constant russian shelling. this is so far from normal. this is so farfrom normal. it this is so far from normal. it is hard to even describe. these people have no idea what they're going to do next. europe's largest nuclear plant is shelled by russian forces overnight. the fires are under under control. ukraine says moscow is resorting to "nuclear terror". the russian tanks knew what they were firing at. a directly hit the

plant. this is tara on