fresh accounts of severe casualties on the ninth day of the invasion of ukraine. the mayor of mariupol in the south that his city was simply being destroyed. they are still enjoying showing as other northern cities of virginia and magkeev. the ukrainian president nanamy zelensky has expressed anger on friday night that nato foreign ministers again ruled out imposing a no—fly zone over the country. he said the failure to act was giving a green light to russian bombings. nato�*s secretary general is that they had a responsibility to ensure the conflict does not speak to other countries. australia's prime minister scott morrison has announced a state funeral will be held for the cricketer shane worn, whose death was announced friday at the age of 52. adored by millions worldwide, he was considered to be the greatest ben boulos of all time —— warne. —— spin bowler.

now on bbc news, the media show. hello, welcome to this week's edition of the media show. we've all seen russia's invasion of ukraine and the war that has followed. there is also now an information war that's playing out in media in russia, in ukraine and the world and in this edition of the programme, we want to understand the role the journalists within ukraine are playing on the perception we have of this conflict but we want to find out what other factors can influence that perception as well. let's begin with even kolpakov, with even kolpa kov, editor—in—chief with even kolpakov, editor—in—chief of an independent news outlet meduza which publishes via latvia, ivan, thank you forjoining me. can you tell me where you are now? u, �*

can you tell me where you are now? u, �* , ., now? hi. i can't tell you, unfortunately, _ now? hi. i can't tell you, unfortunately, where - now? hi. i can't tell you, unfortunately, where i i now? hi. i can't tell you, l unfortunately, where i am. now? hi. i can't tell you, . unfortunately, where i am. i cannot disclose this information due to security reasons. information due to security reasone— reasons. and while you are travelling. _ reasons. and while you are travelling, ivan, _ reasons. and while you are travelling, ivan, can - reasons. and while you are travelling, ivan, can you i travelling, ivan, can you publish meduza?- travelling, ivan, can you publish meduza? yes, sure, sure. publish meduza? yes, sure, sure- you — publish meduza? yes, sure, sure. you know, _ publish meduza? yes, sure, sure. you know, we - publish meduza? yes, sure, sure. you know, we have i publish meduza? yes, sure, - sure. you know, we have remote offices, entirely remote offices, entirely remote offices during the last two years as have many media outlets in the world, i guess, and meduza is based in riga, latvia, but it is a russian speaking media outlet and probably the biggest russian independent media so far. and we work from so many cities, you know, from different countries. so, it is possible, yes. countries. so, it is possible, es. �* ~' countries. so, it is possible, es. �* ~ ., yes. and in the week that has assed yes. and in the week that has passed since _ yes. and in the week that has passed since this _ yes. and in the week that has passed since this invasion - passed since this invasion happened, have you still been able to reach your audience in russia? , ~ ., ~ russia? yes. we are ok. unlike man of russia? yes. we are ok. unlike many of our _ russia? yes. we are ok. unlike many of our colleagues. -

russia? yes. we are ok. unlike many of our colleagues. but - russia? yes. we are ok. unlike many of our colleagues. but we | many of our colleagues. but we think that we are about to be blocked on the territory of russian federation so we've seen a lot of bad signs during this week. right after the invasion, russian authorities said that the media outlets cannot use actually the word �*war�*. i have to use this special operation phrase to describe what's going on in ukraine. also they said that the media has to cover the events in ukraine based on the official sources, and those official sources, and those official sources, and those official sources are state agencies that are lying and manipulating the russian audience or the russian ministry of defence, which also do not disclose trustful information. ,, ,, �* �*

information. crosstalk. and this, and this... _ information. crosstalk. and this, and this... it's _ information. crosstalk. and this, and this... it's not - this, and this... it's not like, it's— this, and this... it's not like, it's not _ this, and this... it's not like, it's not the - this, and this... it's not like, it's not the only i this, and this... it's not - like, it's not the only problem with russian media right now because during the week, russian authorities started blocking independent media outlets, including the very important and huge ones. yesterday, they have blocked the last and the only independent media, independent tv channel tv rain, they can broadcast on youtube but also there are signs that the authorities are going to block authorities are going to block a youtube in russia. find authorities are going to block a youtube in russia. and what ou're a youtube in russia. and what you're describing _ a youtube in russia. and what you're describing is _ a youtube in russia. and what you're describing is an - you're describing is an escalation in the restrictions on media within russia. we're going to continue to talk you about this through this edition of the media show. ivan, from meduza, thank you very much. that spring in luke harding, senior international correspondent at the guardian. let's bring in. luke, you are

in ukraine and i don't know how much you want to tell us about your location?— your location? i'm currently in lviv in the _ your location? i'm currently in lviv in the west _ your location? i'm currently in lviv in the west of _ your location? i'm currently in lviv in the west of the - lviv in the west of the country. _ lviv in the west of the country, i was in kyiv when the invasion— country, i was in kyiv when the invasion started last week and the bombing began but it's interesting, roles, hearing you described— interesting, roles, hearing you described this as an informational wall —— ros. described this as an informationalwall —— ros. i think— informationalwall —— ros. i think when reporting on this conflict, _ think when reporting on this conflict, obviously you have to be sceptical of the information and try— be sceptical of the information and try to _ be sceptical of the information and try to verify, confirm our own — and try to verify, confirm our own sources and make phone calls, _ own sources and make phone calls, interview people and so on but — calls, interview people and so on but when the invasion started. _ on but when the invasion started, i was sheltering in a basement at my hotel with ukrainian families and children as russian aviation was taking out major— as russian aviation was taking out major targets and now, have seen _ out major targets and now, have seen an— out major targets and now, have seen an awful lot of civilians killed. — seen an awful lot of civilians killed, especially in the last couple _ killed, especially in the last couple days in kharkiv, in kyiv and _ couple days in kharkiv, in kyiv and elsewhere, including a journalist, the first journalist, the first journalist of the conflict was killed — journalist of the conflict was killed yesterday and let's say his name, yevgeny sucker pin, a tv camera — his name, yevgeny sucker pin, a tv camera men fought kyiv live. he was— tv camera men fought kyiv live. he was hit— tv camera men fought kyiv live.

he was hit by the second missile _ he was hit by the second missile that target yesterday, it was— missile that target yesterday, it was a — missile that target yesterday, it was a civilian target and a signal of ukrainian statehood and he — signal of ukrainian statehood and he and four other people were — and he and four other people were killed so russian narrative is there are no civilians _ narrative is there are no civilians there is no bombing in civilian— civilians there is no bombing in civilian areas which is clearly— in civilian areas which is clearly untrue, we have to treat — clearly untrue, we have to treat the _ clearly untrue, we have to treat the claim is untrue and of course _ treat the claim is untrue and of course report as best we can on the — of course report as best we can on the ground —— yevhenii saku. luke, _ on the ground —— yevhenii saku. luke, thank— on the ground —— yevhenii saku. luke, thank you and the issue of war crimes have been raised repeatedly by the ukrainian president, zelensky, the european union and we heard borisjohnson raise it in prime minister's questions and next, bringing olga malchevska, a journalist at bbc ukrainian. olga, you are based in london and you also have colleagues in kyiv and across the country. help me understand how bbc ukrainian is covering this terribly difficult story for you. terribly difficult story for

ou. . ~ , ., having me here and obviously, it is quite hard for— having me here and obviously, it is quite hard for all- having me here and obviously, it is quite hard for all of- having me here and obviously, it is quite hard for all of us- it is quite hard for all of us because _ it is quite hard for all of us because we _ it is quite hard for all of us because we have - it is quite hard for all of us because we have our- it is quite hard for all of us. because we have our families it is quite hard for all of us- because we have our families on the ground — because we have our families on the ground and _ because we have our families on the ground and all— because we have our families on the ground and all of— because we have our families on the ground and all of our- the ground and all of our colleagues _ the ground and all of our colleagues in _ the ground and all of our colleagues in ukraine. . the ground and all of our. colleagues in ukraine. they the ground and all of our- colleagues in ukraine. they do have _ colleagues in ukraine. they do have their— colleagues in ukraine. they do have their families— colleagues in ukraine. they do have their families there - colleagues in ukraine. they do have their families there with. have their families there with them — have their families there with them and _ have their families there with them and they— have their families there with them and they are _ have their families there with them and they are trying - have their families there with them and they are trying to l have their families there withl them and they are trying to do their— them and they are trying to do their best _ them and they are trying to do their best to _ them and they are trying to do their best to provide _ them and they are trying to do their best to provide this - their best to provide this coverage _ their best to provide this coverage because - their best to provide this coverage because we - their best to provide this - coverage because we understand that this — coverage because we understand that this is — coverage because we understand that this is basically _ coverage because we understand that this is basically the - coverage because we understand that this is basically the only- that this is basically the only thing — that this is basically the only thing we _ that this is basically the only thing we can— that this is basically the only thing we can do— that this is basically the only thing we can do right - that this is basically the only thing we can do right now, l that this is basically the only. thing we can do right now, we are trying _ thing we can do right now, we are trying to _ thing we can do right now, we are trying to do _ thing we can do right now, we are trying to do our— thing we can do right now, we are trying to do our best. - thing we can do right now, we are trying to do our best. but| are trying to do our best. but because _ are trying to do our best. but because of— are trying to do our best. but because of the _ are trying to do our best. but because of the extremely- because of the extremely difficult _ because of the extremely difficult security - because of the extremely difficult security reasonsl because of the extremely. difficult security reasons for our colleagues _ difficult security reasons for our colleagues in _ difficult security reasons for our colleagues in kyiv- difficult security reasons for . our colleagues in kyiv bureau, we are — our colleagues in kyiv bureau, we are trying _ our colleagues in kyiv bureau, we are trying to _ our colleagues in kyiv bureau, we are trying to take - our colleagues in kyiv bureau, we are trying to take over- our colleagues in kyiv bureau, we are trying to take over as. we are trying to take over as much — we are trying to take over as much as— we are trying to take over as much as possible _ we are trying to take over as much as possible here - we are trying to take over as much as possible here in- we are trying to take over as- much as possible here in london because — much as possible here in london because our— much as possible here in london because our colleagues- much as possible here in london because our colleagues in- much as possible here in london because our colleagues in kyiv. because our colleagues in kyiv quite — because our colleagues in kyiv quite often, _ because our colleagues in kyiv quite often, they— because our colleagues in kyiv quite often, they are - because our colleagues in kyiv quite often, they are not - because our colleagues in kyiv quite often, they are not able i quite often, they are not able to report _ quite often, they are not able to report because _ quite often, they are not able to report because there - quite often, they are not able to report because there is - quite often, they are not able to report because there is asl to report because there is as shelling _ to report because there is as shelling or— to report because there is as shelling or they— to report because there is as shelling or they have - to report because there is as shelling or they have been. shelling or they have been evacuated, _ shelling or they have been evacuated, as _ shelling or they have been evacuated, as you - shelling or they have beenl evacuated, as you might've heard _ evacuated, as you might've heard we _ evacuated, as you might've heard. we have, _ evacuated, as you might've heard. we have, before...| heard. we have, before... before _ heard. we have, before... before the _ heard. we have, before... before the active - heard. we have, before... before the active phase i heard. we have, before... before the active phase ofj before the active phase of invasion— before the active phase of invasion happened, - before the active phase of invasion happened, we . before the active phase of . invasion happened, we were supposed _ invasion happened, we were supposed to— invasion happened, we were supposed to do, _ invasion happened, we were supposed to do, from - invasion happened, we were . supposed to do, from london, our tv— supposed to do, from london, ourtv programme, _ supposed to do, from london, our tv programme, a - supposed to do, from london, | ourtv programme, a bulletin, which — ourtv programme, a bulletin, which was _ ourtv programme, a bulletin, which was taken _ ourtv programme, a bulletin, which was taken by _ ourtv programme, a bulletin, which was taken by ukrainian i our tv programme, a bulletin, i which was taken by ukrainian tv partners — which was taken by ukrainian tv partners but _ which was taken by ukrainian tv partners but now, _ which was taken by ukrainian tv partners but now, obviously, - which was taken by ukrainian tv partners but now, obviously, we have _ partners but now, obviously, we have taken— partners but now, obviously, we have taken over _ partners but now, obviously, we have taken over that _ partners but now, obviously, we have taken over that as - partners but now, obviously, we have taken over that as much i partners but now, obviously, we have taken over that as much as we can— have taken over that as much as we can and _ have taken over that as much as we can and so, _

have taken over that as much as we can and so, we _ have taken over that as much as we can and so, we are _ have taken over that as much as we can and so, we are trying, i we can and so, we are trying, we can and so, we are trying, we have— we can and so, we are trying, we have increased _ we can and so, we are trying, we have increased our- we can and so, we are trying, we have increased our output| we can and so, we are trying, i we have increased our output as well because _ we have increased our output as well because we _ we have increased our output as well because we know _ we have increased our output as well because we know that - we have increased our output as well because we know that our. well because we know that our colleagues _ well because we know that our colleagues in _ well because we know that our colleagues in kyiv, _ well because we know that our colleagues in kyiv, other- well because we know that ouri colleagues in kyiv, other media and other— colleagues in kyiv, other media and other tv _ colleagues in kyiv, other media and other tv channels - colleagues in kyiv, other media and other tv channels are - colleagues in kyiv, other media and other tv channels are not i and other tv channels are not able _ and other tv channels are not able to— and other tv channels are not able to provide _ and other tv channels are not able to provide the _ and other tv channels are not able to provide the same - and other tv channels are not. able to provide the same amount of coverage — able to provide the same amount of coverage as _ able to provide the same amount of coverage as they— able to provide the same amount of coverage as they were - able to provide the same amount of coverage as they were doing . of coverage as they were doing before, — of coverage as they were doing before, so— of coverage as they were doing before, so we _ of coverage as they were doing before, so we are _ of coverage as they were doing before, so we are trying - of coverage as they were doing before, so we are trying to - before, so we are trying to increase _ before, so we are trying to increase our— before, so we are trying to increase our coverage - before, so we are trying to| increase our coverage from london _ increase our coverage from london as— increase our coverage from london as much _ increase our coverage from london as much as - increase our coverage from | london as much as possible increase our coverage from - london as much as possible and we are _ london as much as possible and we are hearing _ london as much as possible and we are hearing very— london as much as possible and we are hearing very good - we are hearing very good responses _ we are hearing very good responses from - we are hearing very good responses from our- we are hearing very good - responses from our audiences when — responses from our audiences when this— responses from our audiences when this audience _ responses from our audiences when this audience is - responses from our audiences. when this audience is obviously able _ when this audience is obviously able to— when this audience is obviously able to respond _ when this audience is obviously able to respond to _ when this audience is obviously able to respond to us. - when this audience is obviously able to respond to us. in - when this audience is obviously able to respond to us. in terms of emotional— able to respond to us. in terms of emotional challenges, - able to respond to us. in terms of emotional challenges, whichj of emotional challenges, which we, of emotional challenges, which we. all— of emotional challenges, which we. all of — of emotional challenges, which we. all of us, _ of emotional challenges, which we, all of us, have, _ of emotional challenges, which we, all of us, have, as- we, all of us, have, as obviously. _ we, all of us, have, as obviously, you - we, all of us, have, as- obviously, you understand, it is extremely _ obviously, you understand, it is extremely difficult - obviously, you understand, it is extremely difficult but - obviously, you understand, it is extremely difficult but bbcj is extremely difficult but bbc ukrainian _ is extremely difficult but bbc ukrainian is— is extremely difficult but bbc ukrainian is ukrainian - ukrainian is ukrainian journalists— ukrainian is ukrainian journalists on- ukrainian is ukrainian journalists on a - ukrainian is ukrainianl journalists on a british ukrainian is ukrainian - journalists on a british show and — journalists on a british show and have _ journalists on a british show and have experience - journalists on a british show and have experience of- journalists on a british show - and have experience of covering war on _ and have experience of covering war on the — and have experience of covering war on the ukrainian _ and have experience of covering war on the ukrainian soil- war on the ukrainian soil because _ war on the ukrainian soil because the _ war on the ukrainian soil because the first - war on the ukrainian soil| because the first russian invasion— because the first russian invasion happened - because the first russian invasion happened in - because the first russianl invasion happened in 2014 because the first russian - invasion happened in 2014 when the annexation _ invasion happened in 2014 when the annexation of _ invasion happened in 2014 when the annexation of crimea - the annexation of crimea happened _ the annexation of crimea happened and _ the annexation of crimea happened and we've - the annexation of crimea . happened and we've learned the annexation of crimea - happened and we've learned how to be _ happened and we've learned how to be impartial— happened and we've learned how to be impartial and _ happened and we've learned how to be impartial and not _ happened and we've learned how to be impartial and not biased i to be impartial and not biased when — to be impartial and not biased when we _ to be impartial and not biased when we are _ to be impartial and not biased when we are doing _ to be impartial and not biased when we are doing our- to be impartial and not biased . when we are doing our coverage and how— when we are doing our coverage and how to _ when we are doing our coverage and how to provide _ when we are doing our coverage and how to provide them - when we are doing our coverage and how to provide them how. when we are doing our coveragej and how to provide them how to verify— and how to provide them how to verify all— and how to provide them how to verify all of _ and how to provide them how to verify all of the _ and how to provide them how to verify all of the content - and how to provide them how to verify all of the content we - verify all of the content we are getting. _ verify all of the content we are getting, so _ verify all of the content we are getting, so even - verify all of the content we are getting, so even let's. verify all of the content we i are getting, so even let's say on friday—

are getting, so even let's say on friday night, _ are getting, so even let's say. on friday night, friday morning when _ on friday night, friday morning when i — on friday night, friday morning when i was _ on friday night, friday morning when i was on _ on friday night, friday morning when i was on my— on friday night, friday morning when i was on my way- on friday night, friday morning when i was on my way to - on friday night, friday morning when i was on my way to the l when i was on my way to the studio— when i was on my way to the studio to _ when i was on my way to the studio to be _ when i was on my way to the studio to be a _ when i was on my way to the studio to be a presenter- when i was on my way to the studio to be a presenter for. studio to be a presenter for the bbc_ studio to be a presenter for the bbc world _ studio to be a presenter for the bbc world and - studio to be a presenter for the bbc world and i- studio to be a presenter for the bbc world and i got- studio to be a presenter for the bbc world and i got a l the bbc world and i got a message _ the bbc world and i got a message from _ the bbc world and i got a message from my - the bbc world and i got a message from my family| the bbc world and i got a . message from my family to the bbc world and i got a - message from my family to tell message from my family to tell me my— message from my family to tell me my house _ message from my family to tell me my house was _ message from my family to tell me my house was bombed, - message from my family to tell me my house was bombed, i'm sorry, _ me my house was bombed, i'm sorry, from _ me my house was bombed, i'm sorry. from my— me my house was bombed, i'm sorry, from my neighbour's, i me my house was bombed, i'ml sorry, from my neighbour's, and i sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried _ sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried to — sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried to get _ sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried to get in _ sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried to get in touch _ sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried to get in touch with - sorry, from my neighbour's, and i tried to get in touch with my. i tried to get in touch with my family— i tried to get in touch with my family to _ i tried to get in touch with my family to double _ i tried to get in touch with my family to double check- i tried to get in touch with my family to double check that l i tried to get in touch with my. family to double check that and obviously. _ family to double check that and obviously. i_ family to double check that and obviously, i could _ family to double check that and obviously, i could not— family to double check that and obviously, i could notjust - family to double check that and obviously, i could notjust say. obviously, i could notjust say that— obviously, i could notjust say that it — obviously, i could notjust say that it was _ obviously, i could notjust say that it was my— obviously, i could notjust say that it was my house, - obviously, i could notjust say. that it was my house, although i that it was my house, although i could — that it was my house, although i could recognise _ that it was my house, although i could recognise it. _ that it was my house, although i could recognise it. but - that it was my house, although i could recognise it. but i - i could recognise it. but i went— i could recognise it. but i went to _ i could recognise it. but i went to the _ i could recognise it. but i went to the official- i could recognise it. but i i went to the official sources, to other _ went to the official sources, to other sources, _ went to the official sources, to other sources, to - went to the official sources, to other sources, to verify. went to the official sources, l to other sources, to verify the pictures _ to other sources, to verify the pictures and _ to other sources, to verify the pictures. and only— to other sources, to verify the pictures. and only when - to other sources, to verify the pictures. and only when i - to other sources, to verify the pictures. and only when i got| pictures. and only when i got the confirmation— pictures. and only when i got the confirmation that - pictures. and only when i got the confirmation that it - pictures. and only when i got the confirmation that it was l the confirmation that it was definitely— the confirmation that it was definitely that— the confirmation that it was definitely that address - the confirmation that it wasi definitely that address when the confirmation that it was . definitely that address when i -ot definitely that address when i got the — definitely that address when i got the confirmation - definitely that address when i got the confirmation from - definitely that address when i got the confirmation from the official— got the confirmation from the official ukrainian— got the confirmation from the official ukrainian emergency. official ukrainian emergency service _ official ukrainian emergency service and _ official ukrainian emergency service and also _ official ukrainian emergency service and also when - official ukrainian emergency service and also when i- official ukrainian emergency service and also when i sawl official ukrainian emergency. service and also when i saw the same _ service and also when i saw the same kind _ service and also when i saw the same kind of— service and also when i saw the same kind of footage _ service and also when i saw the same kind of footage from - service and also when i saw the same kind of footage from my. same kind of footage from my neighbours. _ same kind of footage from my neighbours. i_ same kind of footage from my neighbour's, i was _ same kind of footage from my neighbour's, i was able - same kind of footage from my neighbour's, i was able to- same kind of footage from my neighbour's, i was able to say| neighbour's, i was able to say that— neighbour's, i was able to say that yes. _ neighbour's, i was able to say that yes. that _ neighbour's, i was able to say that yes, that is, _ neighbour's, i was able to say that yes, that is, that - that yes, that is, that particular— that yes, that is, that particular building. i that yes, that is, that| particular building. so that yes, that is, that i particular building. sol that yes, that is, that - particular building. so i am describing that— particular building. so i am describing that to - particular building. so i am describing that to let - particular building. so i am describing that to let you l particular building. so i am - describing that to let you know that such — describing that to let you know that such procedure _ describing that to let you know that such procedure is - describing that to let you know that such procedure is the - describing that to let you know. that such procedure is the same for all— that such procedure is the same for all our— that such procedure is the same for all our bbc— that such procedure is the same for all our bbc ukrainian - for all our bbc ukrainian journalists, _

for all our bbc ukrainian journalists, so— for all our bbc ukrainian journalists, so if- for all our bbc ukrainian journalists, so if we - journalists, so if we emotionally- journalists, so if we emotionally know, i journalists, so if we - emotionally know, let's say, that— emotionally know, let's say, that that _ emotionally know, let's say, that that object _ emotionally know, let's say, that that object was - emotionally know, let's say, | that that object was targeted or that — that that object was targeted or that person— that that object was targeted or that person was _ that that object was targeted or that person was targeted i or that person was targeted unfortunately, _ or that person was targeted unfortunately, we - or that person was targeted unfortunately, we do - or that person was targeted unfortunately, we do verifyl or that person was targeted i unfortunately, we do verify it from — unfortunately, we do verify it from several _ unfortunately, we do verify it from several sources - unfortunately, we do verify it from several sources and - unfortunately, we do verify it from several sources and we| unfortunately, we do verify it. from several sources and we do not report — from several sources and we do not report anything _ not report anything emotionally. - not report anything emotionally. we i not report anything i emotionally. we are double—checking - emotionally. we are - double—checking everything before _ double—checking everything before we _ double—checking everything before we broadcast - before we broadcast on ——or put it on our website. _ before we broadcast on ——or put it on our website. i’m“— before we broadcast on --or put it on our website.— it on our website. i'm so sorry that it was _ it on our website. i'm so sorry that it was your _ it on our website. i'm so sorry that it was your home - it on our website. i'm so sorry that it was your home but - it on our website. i'm so sorry that it was your home but was hit and it's remarkable that you continue with journalism hit and it's remarkable that you continue withjournalism in that matter in these challenging circumstances. olga, thank you forjoining us for the moment. olga, thank you for “oining us for the moment._ for the moment. thank you. throu~h for the moment. thank you. through the _ for the moment. thank you. through the last _ for the moment. thank you. through the last couple - for the moment. thank you. through the last couple of i for the moment. thank you. i through the last couple of days we have been getting in touch with some journalists who are reporting in ukraine and asking them to report their thoughts on covering this war. one of those i got in touch with was lindsey hilsum, international editor at channel 4 news. lindsay recorded this from a town in the east of ukraine. i think from the outside people think from the outside people think about safety more than anything else and of course thatis anything else and of course that is important. but we also think about sleep and food and power and communications and fuel, because we cannot keep

going unless we have those things. and also, the local staff we are working with, the producer and driver, they all right, otherfamilies all right, other families all right? right, otherfamilies all right? these are... it is just meaningless, isn't it. it isjust it is just meaningless, isn't it. it is just people being horrible to each other and cruelty and this conflict as much as any other is about the the position of i can't do that as i have had enough sleep so i come back to the beginning again. come back to the beginning aaain. . ~' ,. come back to the beginning aaain. . ,, i. ., come back to the beginning aaain. . ., , , again. thank you for lindsey hilsum for— again. thank you for lindsey hilsum for reporting - again. thank you for lindsey hilsum for reporting that. i again. thank you for lindsey l hilsum for reporting that. the context of thing the whole

picture is also on roland oliphant mind. senior correspondent from the daily telegraph and he sent me this on whatsapps. i telegraph and he sent me this on whatsapps— on whatsapps. i always tell eo - le on whatsapps. i always tell peeple that _ on whatsapps. i always tell people that war _ on whatsapps. i always tell people that war reporting, | on whatsapps. i always tell. people that war reporting, in on whatsapps. i always tell i people that war reporting, in a way, is the easiest kind of journalism. because in a way, it's kind of effortless. all you've got to do my go somewhere, see what's happening, talk to people, write it down, bang, there's your story. the flip side of that, which i really, really, really feel in this conflict, is you are a tiny, tiny cog in an absolutely enormous machine and you can see and know very little. people talk about first draft of history, pompous journalists want to talk about the first draft of history. it's not. if it is, it's very whole draft because you don't know what is going on and your line of sight is very limited and i have not seen a single russian soldier yet, i have heard them, i have heard them firing their guns and their cannons and artillery but i have not seen single russian.

often, where my inner place, all i know is explosions are occurring all people are running all the people are scared. both people often don't know any more than i know. that's roland oliphant, the daily telegraph. luke harding, senior international correspondent of the guardian, you are still with us from the west of ukraine. do you agree with that, that it can be hard to find whole picture when you are in the middle a conflict? i mean, i agree with both sentiments. yes, it is the daily— sentiments. yes, it is the daily invasion started, i went to give — daily invasion started, i went to give independent square and i did to give independent square and i did the — to give independent square and i did the most basic journalistic exercise of vox pops — journalistic exercise of vox pops and _ journalistic exercise of vox pops and i talk to people about how they felt and amazingly it was a — how they felt and amazingly it was a coffee bar which was open and i_ was a coffee bar which was open and i talk— was a coffee bar which was open and i talk to people about their— and i talk to people about their feelings and expectations. and just on the logistics. _ expectations. and just on the logistics, it's true, i mean, half of your brain is dealing with— half of your brain is dealing with trying to get the story

out as— with trying to get the story out as accurately and is well and — out as accurately and is well and compassionately as possible to tell— and compassionately as possible to tell human stories and i guess— to tell human stories and i guess to _ to tell human stories and i guess to bear witness about what — guess to bear witness about what is _ guess to bear witness about what is going on but the other half is — what is going on but the other half is worrying about security, fixes, roads, constantly shifting position where _ constantly shifting position where russia is advancing and the roadblock that was ok two hours — the roadblock that was ok two hours ago may not be ok two hours — hours ago may not be ok two hours later migratory uniquely challenging but i'm very glad i'm challenging but i'm very glad i'm here _ challenging but i'm very glad i'm here and there is terrific reporting _ i'm here and there is terrific reporting going on but from internationaljournalists like lindsey _ internationaljournalists like lindsey and ronan but also from ukrainian — lindsey and ronan but also from ukrainianjournalists —— ukrainian journalists —— fixers _ ukrainian “ournalists -- fixers. . fixers. there are practical challenges _ fixers. there are practical challenges you _ fixers. there are practical challenges you are i fixers. there are practical- challenges you are describing in that it's easier to report from territory controlled by the ukrainian government than territory in ukraine but controlled by russian troops. but there is a separate challenge which is one side is showing an awful lot more information than the other. president zelensky is posting videos on social media. ukrainian military is releasing statistics. but if an kolpakov

from meduza, —— ivan kolpakov, the russian authorities are not giving us very much information at all so it is giving us a challenge to report the story completely in the hall. —— whole. well, it would be naive to hope that the russian authorities will provide some, i don't know, sustainable information about the conflict. because they, russian authorities usually manipulate the public opinion through russian state—owned state—controlled media and this is — and now, during the war, they are doing it even more active than previously. and this is, we have been observing huge pressure throughout the last year on independent media. meduza, in april 2021, was marked as a foreign agent in russia and its, it was a very

challenging time for our editorial staff. our editorial staff and a lot of other media outlets were labelled as foreign agents. now they are just directly blocking the websites and they are now using it as a real censorship department of the russian state. , ., department of the russian state, y., ., �* department of the russian state. ., �* , . , state. so you don't trust any ofthe state. so you don't trust any of the information _ state. so you don't trust any of the information coming i state. so you don't trust any i of the information coming from the russian authorities but olgr, when you were reporting on this conflict and you need to understand what is happening in territory controlled by the ukrainian government but also russia controlled territory, how do you get good information out of places where the russian troops are in control? irate out of places where the russian troops are in control?— troops are in control? we do consider _ troops are in control? we do consider all _ troops are in control? we do consider all the _ troops are in control? we do consider all the official i consider all the official sources but we also doublecheck that information as much as we can. _ that information as much as we can, obviously, via other sources _ can, obviously, via other sources. we have people on the ground. — sources. we have people on the ground. we _

sources. we have people on the ground, we have bbc russia colleagues there in russia and we also — colleagues there in russia and we also use user generated content _ we also use user generated content and obviously we try to -et content and obviously we try to get in _ content and obviously we try to get in touch with those people and to— get in touch with those people and to speak to them. obviously there _ and to speak to them. obviously there are — and to speak to them. obviously there are other challenges because we have to consider their— because we have to consider their safety and a duty of care policy — their safety and a duty of care policy and that is amazing because as a media organisation we do _ because as a media organisation we do think about the safety of those _ we do think about the safety of those people. but, of course, we must _ those people. but, of course, we must and do check all the sources— we must and do check all the sources which are available and also _ sources which are available and also it— sources which are available and also it is— sources which are available and also it is quite important for us to— also it is quite important for us to know that the narrative that — us to know that the narrative that the _ us to know that the narrative that the kremlin is providing to their— that the kremlin is providing to their audience, that the kremlin is providing to theiraudience, because it gives— to theiraudience, because it gives us— to theiraudience, because it gives us the possibility to understand better the reaction of the — understand better the reaction of the audience. thank you, olgr~ — of the audience. thank you, olgr~ let's_ of the audience. thank you, olgr. let's bring in professor sam — olgr. let's bring in professor sam green to our conversation. director— sam green to our conversation. director of— sam green to our conversation. director of the russia institute at king's college in london~ _ institute at king's college in london. thank you forjoining us. london. thank you forjoining us at — london. thank you forjoining us at the _ london. thank you forjoining us. at the beginning i said that— us. at the beginning i said that the _ us. at the beginning i said that the information war has the potential, at least, to

influence the course of the actual— influence the course of the actual war. influence the course of the actualwar. do influence the course of the actual war. do you think that is too — actual war. do you think that is too overstated? to a certain extent — is too overstated? to a certain extent it — is too overstated? to a certain extent it is _ is too overstated? to a certain extent it is even understated. because — extent it is even understated. because the reactions are what matters — because the reactions are what matters and _ because the reactions are what matters and the _ because the reactions are what matters and the reactions i because the reactions are what matters and the reactions are i matters and the reactions are to what — matters and the reactions are to what people _ matters and the reactions are to what people are _ matters and the reactions are to what people are seeing i matters and the reactions are | to what people are seeing and hearind — to what people are seeing and hearind so _ to what people are seeing and hearind so if— to what people are seeing and hearing. so if you _ to what people are seeing and hearing. so if you look- to what people are seeing and hearing. so if you look at i to what people are seeing and hearing. so if you look at the i hearing. so if you look at the reactions— hearing. so if you look at the reactions of— hearing. so if you look at the reactions of the _ hearing. so if you look at the reactions of the european i reactions of the european government. _ reactions of the european government, the - reactions of the europeanl government, the stunning decision— government, the stunning decision by— government, the stunning decision by the _ government, the stunning decision by the german i decision by the german government— decision by the german government to - decision by the german government to begin i decision by the german - government to begin providing legal— government to begin providing legal aid — government to begin providing legal aid and _ government to begin providing legal aid and military- government to begin providing legal aid and military aid i government to begin providing legal aid and military aid to i legal aid and military aid to ukraine. _ legal aid and military aid to ukraine, that— legal aid and military aid to ukraine, that is _ legal aid and military aid to ukraine, that is an- legal aid and military aid to. ukraine, that is an emotional decision— ukraine, that is an emotional decision and _ ukraine, that is an emotional decision and an _ ukraine, that is an emotional decision and an emotional. decision and an emotional decision— decision and an emotional decision is— decision and an emotional decision is driven - decision and an emotional decision is driven by- decision and an emotional decision is driven by what| decision is driven by what people _ decision is driven by what people are _ decision is driven by what people are seeing - decision is driven by what people are seeing on i people are seeing on television. _ people are seeing on television. the - people are seeing on television. the samej people are seeing on - television. the same story is true — television. the same story is true for— television. the same story is true for decisions _ television. the same story is true for decisions affecting . true for decisions affecting the pace _ true for decisions affecting the pace and _ true for decisions affecting the pace and scale - true for decisions affecting the pace and scale of- true for decisions affecting i the pace and scale of sanctions that we — the pace and scale of sanctions that we have _ the pace and scale of sanctions that we have seen. _ the pace and scale of sanctions that we have seen. also, - the pace and scale of sanctions that we have seen. also, one l the pace and scale of sanctionsl that we have seen. also, one of the reasons— that we have seen. also, one of the reasons why _ that we have seen. also, one of the reasons why we _ that we have seen. also, one of the reasons why we are - that we have seen. also, one of the reasons why we are seeing. the reasons why we are seeing the reasons why we are seeing the stuff — the reasons why we are seeing the stuff that _ the reasons why we are seeing the stuff that yvonne - the reasons why we are seeing the stuff that yvonne was i the stuff that yvonne was talking _ the stuff that yvonne was talking about _ the stuff that yvonne was talking about earlier- the stuff that yvonne was talking about earlier in i the stuff that yvonne was i talking about earlier in terms of crackdown _ talking about earlier in terms of crackdown on _ talking about earlier in terms of crackdown on media - talking about earlier in terms of crackdown on media and l of crackdown on media and media. _ of crackdown on media and media. the _ of crackdown on media and media, the narrowing - of crackdown on media and media, the narrowing of. of crackdown on media andl media, the narrowing of the media — media, the narrowing of the media space. _ media, the narrowing of the media space, so _ media, the narrowing of the media space, so they- media, the narrowing of the media space, so they make| media, the narrowing of the. media space, so they make it harder— media space, so they make it harder for— media space, so they make it harder for russians _ media space, so they make it harder for russians to - media space, so they make it harder for russians to accessj harder for russians to access facebook. _ harder for russians to access facebook, youtube, - harder for russians to access i facebook, youtube, apparently twitter — facebook, youtube, apparently twitter as — facebook, youtube, apparently twitter as well _ facebook, youtube, apparently twitter as well as _ facebook, youtube, apparently twitter as well as well- facebook, youtube, apparently twitter as well as well as - twitter as well as well as

putting. _ twitter as well as well as putting. we _ twitter as well as well as putting, we are - twitter as well as well as putting, we are hearing i putting, we are hearing expectations _ putting, we are hearing expectations of- putting, we are hearing i expectations of accusations putting, we are hearing - expectations of accusations of treason — expectations of accusations of treason and _ expectations of accusations of treason and trials _ expectations of accusations of treason and trials for - expectations of accusations of treason and trials for treason i treason and trials for treason against — treason and trials for treason against russian _ treason and trials for treason against russianjournalists. treason and trials for treason . against russian journalists who report — against russian journalists who report anything _ against russian journalists who report anything other— against russian journalists who report anything other than i against russian journalists who report anything other than the i report anything other than the official— report anything other than the official line. _ report anything other than the official line. and _ report anything other than the official line. and the _ report anything other than the official line. and the reason i official line. and the reason is that— official line. and the reason is that the _ official line. and the reason is that the russian - official line. and the reason - is that the russian government itsetf— is that the russian government itself is — is that the russian government itsetf is very— is that the russian government itself is very nervous _ is that the russian government itself is very nervous about - itself is very nervous about the — itself is very nervous about the emotional— itself is very nervous about the emotional reaction. - itself is very nervous about. the emotional reaction. that itself is very nervous about - the emotional reaction. that is what _ the emotional reaction. that is what peorite _ the emotional reaction. that is what peorite in— the emotional reaction. that is what people in the _ the emotional reaction. that is what people in the west, - the emotional reaction. that is what people in the west, i- what people in the west, i think— what people in the west, i think they— what people in the west, i think they have _ what people in the west, i think they have given - what people in the west, i think they have given up, i think they have given up, broadly, _ think they have given up, broadly. on _ think they have given up, broadly, on trying - think they have given up, broadly, on trying to - think they have given up, - broadly, on trying to persuade people — broadly, on trying to persuade peorite in— broadly, on trying to persuade people in europe _ broadly, on trying to persuade people in europe and - broadly, on trying to persuade people in europe and the - broadly, on trying to persuade people in europe and the us. broadly, on trying to persuade . people in europe and the us and the uk _ people in europe and the us and the uk but — people in europe and the us and the uk but they— people in europe and the us and the uk but they are _ people in europe and the us and the uk but they are very- the uk but they are very concerned _ the uk but they are very concerned about- the uk but they are very concerned about the - the uk but they are very- concerned about the potential for russians _ concerned about the potential for russians to _ concerned about the potential for russians to see _ concerned about the potential for russians to see the - for russians to see the pictures— for russians to see the pictures that _ for russians to see the pictures that we - for russians to see the pictures that we are i for russians to see the - pictures that we are seeing of destruction— pictures that we are seeing of destruction to _ pictures that we are seeing of destruction to kyiv, _ pictures that we are seeing of destruction to kyiv, chernihiv| destruction to kyiv, chernihiv and other— destruction to kyiv, chernihiv and other cities— destruction to kyiv, chernihiv and other cities around - and other cities around ukraine _ and other cities around ukraine-— and other cities around ukraine. �*, . ~ . . ukraine. let's talk about that. let's talk _ ukraine. let's talk about that. let's talk about _ ukraine. let's talk about that. let's talk about the _ let's talk about the perspective of the russian media because russians are not getting the same story, those of us in the uk and elsewhere in the west are getting and we had just this. in a recent report by the bbc moscow correspondent steve rosenberg, here are some of it. like

correspondent steve rosenberg, here are some of it.— here are some of it. like many russians. _ here are some of it. like many russians, valentina _ here are some of it. like many russians, valentina gets - here are some of it. like many russians, valentina gets all. russians, valentina gets all her news from state tv and believes it. in russia, television is a powerful tool for shaping public opinion about the war. a for shaping public opinion about the war.— for shaping public opinion about the war. a lot of what they say _ about the war. a lot of what they say on _ about the war. a lot of what they say on television - about the war. a lot of what they say on television as - they say on television as truth _ they say on television as truth. it— they say on television as truth. . ., they say on television as truth. , ., ., i. truth. it is true. how do you know? when _ truth. it is true. how do you know? when i _ truth. it is true. how do you know? when i read - truth. it is true. how do you know? when i read a - truth. it is true. how do you | know? when i read a foreign newspaper— know? when i read a foreign newspaper that _ know? when i read a foreign newspaper that russians - know? when i read a foreign i newspaper that russians bomb kharkiv — newspaper that russians bomb kharkiv and so on, i know it is hot _ kharkiv and so on, i know it is not true — kharkiv and so on, i know it is not true because they promised not true because they promised hot to— not true because they promised hot to do— not true because they promised not to do this and they will never— not to do this and they will never do _ not to do this and they will never do this. if not to do this and they will never do this.— not to do this and they will never do this. if none, as you listen to _ never do this. if none, as you listen to that, _ never do this. if none, as you listen to that, explain - never do this. if none, as you listen to that, explain to - never do this. if none, as you listen to that, explain to us i listen to that, explain to us how important state television is within russian society in terms of forming people's view of the world. it terms of forming people's view of the world.— of the world. it is very important. _ of the world. it is very important. for - of the world. it is very. important. for vladimir of the world. it is very - important. for vladimir putin, television is important. when he became president, russian

television was independent and in the first years of his presidency he decided to clean it up and he used television as a ground of his powerfor so many years also he was very surprised when he realised that the internet is also very important source of information for russians and around ten years ago he started destroying independent internet as well. what, still, russian television is very important within the country and since the kremlin has can —— controls 80 or 90% of the market they can easily create a fake picture of reality. that is why so many people within russia,

unfortunately,, i would not say support... i would say are indifferent about what is going on in ukraine and it is a pity. it is horrible and it is also one of the results, also one of the results of this situation with independent media. i'm not sure that i will be able to say that. ijust want, i think we all have to admit it is an unnecessary thing to say if you are a russian journalist or anyone from russia right now, i want to say sorry to my ukrainian colleagues. i feel terrible, personally, i ukrainian colleagues. i feel terrible, personally, lam broken and i am angry about russia. i think it is a real catastrophe for russia and i am really sorry that we did not stop russian authorities from doing that. stop russian authorities from doing that-— doing that. olgr, would you like to respond? _ doing that. olgr, would you like to respond? i— doing that. olgr, would you like to respond? i would -

doing that. olgr, would you | like to respond? i would like to say thank _ like to respond? i would like to say thank you, _ like to respond? i would like to say thank you, ivan. - like to respond? i would like to say thank you, ivan. i - like to respond? i would like. to say thank you, ivan. i don't to say thank you, ivan. idon't remember— to say thank you, ivan. i don't remember if you —— i don't know if you _ remember if you —— i don't know if you met — remember if you —— i don't know if you met me in riga in the past — if you met me in riga in the past but. _ if you met me in riga in the past but, obviously, a lot of love — past but, obviously, a lot of love to _ past but, obviously, a lot of love to all _ past but, obviously, a lot of love to all my colleagues in ukraine _ love to all my colleagues in ukraine and people in ukraine and, _ ukraine and people in ukraine and, unfortunately, i must add that as— and, unfortunately, i must add that as far— and, unfortunately, i must add that as far as we get in our reports _ that as far as we get in our reports from the grounds, not all the — reports from the grounds, not all the russian audience can go in tine — all the russian audience can go in line with what ivan said. and — in line with what ivan said. and that _ in line with what ivan said. and that is something.... and and that is something. . .. and as we listened _ and that is something. . .. and as we listened to _ and that is something. . .. and as we listened to ivan - and that is something.... fific as we listened to ivan painting as we listened to ivan painting a particularly bleak picture of independent media in russia, luke, can i bring you when, you talk to us from ukraine russia is a country you know well and you have are a great deal. how does the severity of the restrictions we're seeing in over the last 2a hours in

russia compare to previous eras either the early days of russia in the 19905 and 2000 or the soviet union before that? in the 1990s and 2000 or the soviet union before that? well, i think it soviet union before that? well, i think it is _ soviet union before that? well, i think it is as _ soviet union before that? well, i think it is as bad _ soviet union before that? well, i think it is as bad as _ soviet union before that? well, i think it is as bad as it - soviet union before that? well, i think it is as bad as it has - i think it is as bad as it has ever been. it is interesting seeing the kind of slide in russia from a semi— democracy of the 19905 under boris yeltsin to a darker authoritarianism to what we have now which is, essentially, a full fledged a totalitarian society with censorship, restrictions on access to information and so on. and, look, there are some very, very... ivan and other russian colleagues, brave journalists out there, let's not forget the one murdered in 2006 and other journalists subsequently, it is a difficult regression —— profession and most investigative reporters i work with have been forced to flee including some in recent months

and we have also seen pressure on foreign journalists. and we have also seen pressure on foreignjournalists. i and we have also seen pressure on foreign journalists. i was the first western reported to be thrown out of russia since the ussr in 2011. and of course since then sarah rainsford, a fine reporter, has been deported. and there is a sense of pressure on everybody of almost orwellian control. and almost orwellian control. and as all of you _ almost orwellian control. and as all of you when _ almost orwellian control. and as all of you when you're different ways try to understand what is happening and report on what is happening, sam, iwonder and report on what is happening, sam, i wonder if there is a fundamental challenge at the heart of this which is the man who started this war, the man who dominates russia is not a man who is easy to understand. he is not a man who journalists have contacts with or contacts with people close to him very easily. he is very difficult _ close to him very easily. he is very difficult to _ close to him very easily. he is very difficult to understand i very difficult to understand and that is by design. he wants to keep people guessing as to his intentions. many of us, my colleagues in the academic community, frankly, many of us

were very sceptical about the prospect of a war, certainly on this scale because it did not make any sense. it is hard to see how, as luke was saying, how russia ends up anywhere other than a worse place at the end of this. an same is true for putin. so we do struggle to understand what could possibly be motivating the decisions he is making now and, as a result, what will be motivating the decisions he is going to make in the future. he has made some robust threats about what he and the russian military might do going forward. so, unfortunately, we are left in similar ways to what i think roland and others were describing, we are very much left in the dark trying to find some sense from the scraps of information and unable, really, to understand the big picture. ivan i only have a minute left that i wonder if you think in one weeks time you will still

be able to publish meduza as you currently do? i be able to publish meduza as you currently do?— be able to publish meduza as you currently do? i don't think that we have _ you currently do? i don't think that we have much _ you currently do? i don't think that we have much time - you currently do? i don't think that we have much time left, | you currently do? i don't think. that we have much time left, to be honest. in the country. i think that we will be blocked in a few days, possibly in a few hours. in a few days, possibly in a few hours— in a few days, possibly in a few hours. �*, .,, . ., , few hours. let's hope that does not happen- — few hours. let's hope that does not happen. thank _ few hours. let's hope that does not happen. thank you - few hours. let's hope that does not happen. thank you for - not happen. thank you for speaking to us and, luke, in a few seconds, you staying in the west of ukraine for the moment? yes. i want to stay with the story— yes. i want to stay with the story for— yes. i want to stay with the story for as long as i can i expect— story for as long as i can i expect this will be like iraq and — expect this will be like iraq and syria and journalists will be here _ and syria and journalists will be here for months and, i fear, years — be here for months and, i fear, ears. . ~' be here for months and, i fear, ears. . ~ , ., be here for months and, i fear, ears. . ~ ,, ~ be here for months and, i fear, ears. . ~ i. ~ . ~ years. thank you, luke, thank ou to years. thank you, luke, thank you to all _ years. thank you, luke, thank you to all of — years. thank you, luke, thank you to all of our _ years. thank you, luke, thank you to all of our guests - years. thank you, luke, thank you to all of our guests on - you to all of our guests on this edition of the media show. ivan, olgr, roland, luke and sam and lindsay. we will be back at the usual time next week but, for the moment, thank you for watching. goodbye.

hello again. a slow—moving weather front has taken the last three days to reach eastern areas of england and that is where it is at the moment. this type of rain affecting east anglia in south—east england. light enters the stuff, really. misty as well. whereas we have clear skies in the north—west allowing the widespread frost with temperatures down to “4 or -5 with temperatures down to “4 or —5 in the highlands, heading into saturday morning we were still have this owner ploughed a batch outbreaks of rain and drizzle, the front starts moving back westwards and you will see the cloud building again across the midlands and central southern england, maybe with an odd spot of rain through the afternoon. the north and west stay dry with sunshine, top damages for most between eight and 10 degrees. the drugs of that front are still bringing a little bit about she rain across the south—west of england and with cloud flowing from the north sea we could still see an occasional patch of rain

elsewhere, mainly across the south of england. otherwise some sunny spells but feeling chilly in a strengthening cold wind.

this is bbc news. i'mjames i'm james reynolds. our top stories: in ukraine's second biggest city, residential buildings are reduced to rubble and families are hiding underground. we have a special report from inside kharkiv. this from inside kharkiv. is so farfrom normal, it's this is so far from normal, it's a —— very hard to describe, and these people have no idea what will happen next. ukraine's president criticises the west for ruling out a no—fly zone over his country while russian attacks continue. they are destroying everything that ensures a normal life. human life, and they want to continue it. knowing that new strikes and casualties are inevitable. nato deliberately decided not to close the sky over ukraine. fist decided not to close the sky over ukraine.— decided not to close the sky over ukraine. at the borders, refu . ee over ukraine. at the borders, refugee cues _ over ukraine. at the borders, refugee cues grow longer - over ukraine. at the borders, | refugee cues grow longer with

more and more people trying to flee.