this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main stories for you at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. another extraordinary week, where history has just unfolded in front of our eyes, and you just feel it when you are watching

lyse doucet on the news. this week president zelensky made that amazing address to parliament and made that amazing address to parliament and we made that amazing address to parliament and we are made that amazing address to parliament and we are picking out what happened. what has happened today? my out what happened. what has happened today?— out what happened. what has happened today? my clip of the da was happened today? my clip of the day was the _ happened today? my clip of the day was the russian _ happened today? my clip of the day was the russian forest - day was the russian forest minister_ day was the russian forest minister when it came out of his talks _ minister when it came out of his talks with ukrainian counterpart started off well and he _ counterpart started off well and he said we're not going to any other_ and he said we're not going to any other countries and have no intention— any other countries and have no intention of attacking others. in fact — intention of attacking others. in fact we have never attacked ukraine — in fact we have never attacked ukraine and this is a kind of orwellian_ ukraine and this is a kind of orwellian topsy—turvy world that — orwellian topsy—turvy world that we _ orwellian topsy—turvy world that we are dealing with. and chemical weapons, _ that we are dealing with. fific chemical weapons, that that we are dealing with. fific chemical weapons, that is something that has come in the conversation this week and the prime minister has acknowledged that in the foreign secretary has talked about it too. my

instinct is _ has talked about it too. my instinct is always to take these _ instinct is always to take these very public intelligence assessments with a healthy dose of scepticism. we remember iraq and that— of scepticism. we remember iraq and that mass destruction and that taught us all a lesson and i'm always suspicious of people saying — i'm always suspicious of people saying so—and—so is preparing to do— saying so—and—so is preparing to do something really terrible. on the other hand, we heard _ terrible. on the other hand, we heard a — terrible. on the other hand, we heard a lot _ terrible. on the other hand, we heard a lot about intelligence assessments in the run—up to the invasion and americans saying _ the invasion and americans saying they are about to invade _ saying they are about to invade. and i was deeply sceptical because it didn't seem _ sceptical because it didn't seem to make any sense and of course — seem to make any sense and of course they were right. so, you know. — course they were right. so, you know. it — course they were right. so, you know. it is _ course they were right. so, you know, it is worrying and especially worrying because we look especially worrying because we took at — especially worrying because we look at what happened in syria and it — look at what happened in syria and it is— look at what happened in syria and it is a _ look at what happened in syria and it is a precedent for that and — and it is a precedent for that and frankly as far as the kremiin— and frankly as far as the kremlin is concerned, the russian _ kremlin is concerned, the russian campaign is not going very— russian campaign is not going very welt _ russian campaign is not going ve well. , ., ~ russian campaign is not going ve well. , ., ,, ., russian campaign is not going very well-— very well. gabriel, talk to us about ordinary _ very well. gabriel, talk to us about ordinary russian - very well. gabriel, talk to us i

about ordinary russian people. we have seen the scale the suffering on ukraine and on the television for the last few weeks now but give us a sense of the kind of conversations going on amongst ordinary russians, looking in on this conflict as much as they can given the state media and what is being done in their name? some of them, including most of my friends— some of them, including most of my friends are absolutely horrified. i have friends he woke — horrified. i have friends he woke up— horrified. i have friends he woke up on the day, the first day of— woke up on the day, the first day of the _ woke up on the day, the first day of the invasion and said they— day of the invasion and said they feit— day of the invasion and said they felt they had woken up in nazi _ they felt they had woken up in nazi germany. that is the kind of level— nazi germany. that is the kind of level of— nazi germany. that is the kind of level of horror and shame and — of level of horror and shame and feelings of powerlessness and feelings of powerlessness and helplessness that are coming _ and helplessness that are coming out of that sort of part of the — coming out of that sort of part of the russian society which is under— of the russian society which is under no — of the russian society which is under no illusion as to what the — under no illusion as to what the putin— under no illusion as to what the putin regime was but then it turned — the putin regime was but then it turned out much worse than they— it turned out much worse than they thought. of course there are nrany— they thought. of course there are many other russians who by

the state — are many other russians who by the state media propaganda and think— the state media propaganda and think we — the state media propaganda and think we are fighting some phantom nazi threat, which typically, is nonsense, right? it typically, is nonsense, right? it is— typically, is nonsense, right? it is nonsense. —— unequivocally. and there is a huge — unequivocally. and there is a huge section in the middle he simply— huge section in the middle he simply feel powerless to affect any kind — simply feel powerless to affect any kind of change. they could io any kind of change. they could go out — any kind of change. they could go out on _ any kind of change. they could go out on the streets and protest _ go out on the streets and protest and get sent to jail. it protest and get sent to jail. it wiii— protest and get sent to jail. it will not change anything. for many years they have felt powerless about the direction of their— powerless about the direction of their country and that is a very— of their country and that is a very different mindset to put yourself _ very different mindset to put yourself into from where we are sitting _ yourself into from where we are sitting and what is really interesting over the past few weeks. — interesting over the past few weeks, trying to get an insight into what— weeks, trying to get an insight into what is the close circle around _ into what is the close circle around putin think, the people in the — around putin think, the people in the greater kremlin, the oligarchs, these strong men and the (— oligarchs, these strong men and the (and — oligarchs, these strong men and the (and the picture emerging is the ( and the picture emerging is that— the (and the picture emerging is that they did not know he was — is that they did not know he was going to do this and they also — was going to do this and they also feel_ was going to do this and they also feel helpless to affect change. the picture we're

getting _ change. the picture we're getting both on the streets and right— getting both on the streets and right at— getting both on the streets and right at the top of a country led right at the top of a country ied by— right at the top of a country ied by an— right at the top of a country led by an increasingly isolated and unpredictable leader. you mentioned — and unpredictable leader. you mentioned the _ and unpredictable leader. i'm. mentioned the oligarchs and today the uk finally bought sanctions on roman abramovich and as a russian expert you probably will correct my pronunciation. it probably will correct my pronunciation.— probably will correct my pronunciation. it is patch anaemic— pronunciation. it is patch anaemic and _ pronunciation. it is patch anaemic and you - pronunciation. it is patch anaemic and you are - pronunciation. it is patch i anaemic and you are named pronunciation. it is patch - anaemic and you are named after your— anaemic and you are named after your father — anaemic and you are named after yourfather. it anaemic and you are named after your father. it is like neil mcneit— your father. it is like neil mcneil and mcdonald. but the subtext of _ mcneil and mcdonald. but the subtext of the _ mcneil and mcdonald. but the subtext of the press _ mcneil and mcdonald. but the subtext of the press release . subtext of the press release announcing sanctions on him and six other oligarchs is kind of like they will be so pained by the sanctions and i will call up the sanctions and i will call up vladimir putin and then the tanks will be called back but that will not work, will it? once upon a time it may have. but i _ once upon a time it may have. but i think— once upon a time it may have. but i think of putin's power is

his three _ but i think of putin's power is his three legged stool, the oligarchs are one, the apparatchiks and the prime minister is, the professional politicians who would do what they _ politicians who would do what they told and the third and increasingly more important one is what — increasingly more important one is what is — increasingly more important one is what is known as strong men. these _ is what is known as strong men. these are — is what is known as strong men. these are people from the intelligence services, and the security— intelligence services, and the security agencies and military, and i_ security agencies and military, and i think what has happened over— and i think what has happened over the — and i think what has happened over the past four years that i had not — over the past four years that i had not appreciated which is why i and ironically enough, most you know russia based were taken _ most you know russia based were taken by _ most you know russia based were taken by surprise —— best because _ taken by surprise —— best because the strong men have become — because the strong men have become increasingly powerful and an— become increasingly powerful and an increasingly small circle _ and an increasingly small circle. and that is why i think you _ circle. and that is why i think you can — circle. and that is why i think you can sanction the oligarchs and it— you can sanction the oligarchs and it wiii— you can sanction the oligarchs and it will have an effect on what — and it will have an effect on what is _ and it will have an effect on what is going on in russia but it wiii— what is going on in russia but it will not— what is going on in russia but it will not necessarily change vladimir— it will not necessarily change vladimir putin's direction. if

vladimir putin's direction. if that vladimir putin's direction. that were vladimir putin's direction. if that were not change things, can the international community have any impact? our diplomatic correspondent and friend of the podcast is at talks in turkey going on. i think he is in antalya and what is going on there, any sense of glimmer of light or people are just talking around in circles? welcome to my glamorous workspace _ welcome to my glamorous workspace in— welcome to my glamorous workspace in the _ welcome to my glamorous workspace in the hotel. . welcome to my glamorous . workspace in the hotel. italia is an— workspace in the hotel. italia is an extraordinary— workspace in the hotel. italia is an extraordinary resort - workspace in the hotel. italiaj is an extraordinary resort city on the — is an extraordinary resort city on the southern _ is an extraordinary resort city on the southern turkish - is an extraordinary resort city. on the southern turkish coast, a massive _ on the southern turkish coast, a massive strip _ on the southern turkish coast, a massive strip of— on the southern turkish coast, a massive strip of very- on the southern turkish coast, a massive strip of very large i a massive strip of very large hotei— a massive strip of very large hotel and _ a massive strip of very large hotel and have _ a massive strip of very large hotel and have to _ a massive strip of very large hotel and have to say- a massive strip of very large hotel and have to say an - a massive strip of very large . hotel and have to say an awful lot of— hotel and have to say an awful lot of russians _ hotel and have to say an awful lot of russians —— _ hotel and have to say an awful lot of russians —— antalya - hotel and have to say an awful lot of russians —— antalya a i lot of russians —— antalya a lot of russians —— antalya a lot of— lot of russians —— antalya a lot of russians _ lot of russians —— antalya a lot of russians have - lot of russians —— antalya a lot of russians have come i lot of russians —— antalya a - lot of russians have come here in the _ lot of russians have come here in the past _ lot of russians have come here in the past and _ lot of russians have come here in the past and so _ lot of russians have come here in the past and so there - lot of russians have come here in the past and so there is - in the past and so there is some _ in the past and so there is some irony— in the past and so there is some irony there - in the past and so there is some irony there that - in the past and so there is some irony there that we i in the past and so there is i some irony there that we are talking — some irony there that we are talking about _ some irony there that we are talking about diplomacy- some irony there that we are i talking about diplomacy here. were — talking about diplomacy here. were ali— talking about diplomacy here. were all piled _ talking about diplomacy here. were all piled into _ talking about diplomacy here. were all piled into this - talking about diplomacy here. were all piled into this big - were all piled into this big hotel. _ were all piled into this big hotel, hundreds _ were all piled into this big hotel, hundreds of - were all piled into this big - hotel, hundreds ofjournalists, hotel, hundreds of journalists, all of— hotel, hundreds of journalists, all of us — hotel, hundreds ofjournalists, all of us hanging _ hotel, hundreds ofjournalists, all of us hanging on _ hotel, hundreds ofjournalists, all of us hanging on every- hotel, hundreds ofjournalists,| all of us hanging on every word and yet — all of us hanging on every word and yet the _ all of us hanging on every word and yet the words _ all of us hanging on every word and yet the words that - all of us hanging on every word and yet the words that came i and yet the words that came out, _ and yet the words that came out, particularly— and yet the words that came out, particularly from - and yet the words that came out, particularly from the i out, particularly from the russian _ out, particularly from the russian side _ out, particularly from the russian side was - out, particularly from the

russian side was this - out, particularly from the . russian side was this torrent of rambling _ russian side was this torrent of rambling thoughts - russian side was this torrent of rambling thoughts and - russian side was this torrent i of rambling thoughts and words and it— of rambling thoughts and words and it suddenly became - of rambling thoughts and words and it suddenly became very. and it suddenly became very dear. — and it suddenly became very dear. not— and it suddenly became very clear, notjust _ and it suddenly became very clear, notjust making - clear, notjust making allegations _ clear, notjust making allegations and - clear, notjust making allegations and no - clear, notjust making - allegations and no invasion taking _ allegations and no invasion taking place _ allegations and no invasion taking place but— allegations and no invasion taking place but random i allegations and no invasion . taking place but random stuff about— taking place but random stuff about biological— taking place but random stuff about biological warfare - taking place but random stuff about biological warfare and i taking place but random stuff. about biological warfare and be engendered _ about biological warfare and be engendered by— about biological warfare and be engendered by the _ about biological warfare and be engendered by the americans i about biological warfare and bel engendered by the americans in ukraine — engendered by the americans in ukraine and _ engendered by the americans in ukraine and he _ engendered by the americans in ukraine and he accused - engendered by the americans in ukraine and he accused ukraine| ukraine and he accused ukraine of big _ ukraine and he accused ukraine of big nazis _ ukraine and he accused ukraine of big nazis and _ ukraine and he accused ukraine of big nazis and used _ ukraine and he accused ukraine of big nazis and used ukraine . of big nazis and used ukraine is of— of big nazis and used ukraine is of using _ of big nazis and used ukraine is of using humans _ of big nazis and used ukraine is of using humans as - of big nazis and used ukraine is of using humans as shieldsj is of using humans as shields and _ is of using humans as shields and even _ is of using humans as shields and even in _ is of using humans as shields and even in the _ is of using humans as shields and even in the language, . is of using humans as shieldsl and even in the language, the body— and even in the language, the body language. _ and even in the language, the body language, of— and even in the language, the body language, of saying - and even in the language, the body language, of saying let's see if— body language, of saying let's see if we _ body language, of saying let's see if we can _ body language, of saying let's see if we can find _ body language, of saying let's see if we can find a _ body language, of saying let's see if we can find a deal, - body language, of saying let's see if we can find a deal, we i see if we can find a deal, we are far— see if we can find a deal, we are farabart. _ see if we can find a deal, we are farapart, any— see if we can find a deal, we are farapart, any common. are farapart, any common ground— are farapart, any common ground and— are farapart, any common ground and there - are farapart, any common ground and there wasn't i are far apart, any common i ground and there wasn't any are far apart, any common - ground and there wasn't any of that _ ground and there wasn't any of that both— ground and there wasn't any of that. both sides _ ground and there wasn't any of that. both sides are _ ground and there wasn't any of that. both sides are talking - that. both sides are talking straight _ that. both sides are talking straight past _ that. both sides are talking straight past each - that. both sides are talking straight past each other. i that. both sides are talking straight past each other. lt| straight past each other. [it was straight past each other. was very hard to see what straight past each other.- was very hard to see what they were talking about because what they were talking about was the

denazification of ukraine and thatis denazification of ukraine and that is the phantom. find denazification of ukraine and that is the phantom.- that is the phantom. and we went into — that is the phantom. and we went into this _ that is the phantom. and we went into this looking - that is the phantom. and we went into this looking a - that is the phantom. and we | went into this looking a little bit naive _ went into this looking a little bit naive because we talked about — bit naive because we talked about this previously this week and we — about this previously this week and we was servicing talking about — and we was servicing talking about potential areas for climbdown or compromise and we talk at _ climbdown or compromise and we talk at sit — climbdown or compromise and we talk at sit -- _ climbdown or compromise and we talk at sit —— and we took it seriously _ talk at sit —— and we took it seriously i— talk at sit -- and we took it seriously-— talk at sit -- and we took it seriousl . ,, ., ., , , seriously. i think would happen was a kremlin _ seriously. i think would happen was a kremlin spokesperson i seriously. i think would happen i was a kremlin spokesperson gave an interview— was a kremlin spokesperson gave an interview to— was a kremlin spokesperson gave an interview to reuters _ was a kremlin spokesperson gave an interview to reuters and - an interview to reuters and reiterated _ an interview to reuters and reiterated demands - an interview to reuters and reiterated demands that. an interview to reuters and - reiterated demands that ukraine has to— reiterated demands that ukraine has to recognise _ reiterated demands that ukraine has to recognise that _ reiterated demands that ukraine has to recognise that crimea - reiterated demands that ukraine has to recognise that crimea is l has to recognise that crimea is russian — has to recognise that crimea is russian and _ has to recognise that crimea is russian and accept _ russian and accept independence. - a few days a-o in which the spokesman reiterated the russian demands, i.e., ukraine has to recognise i that crimea is russian, they have to accept - the independence of the ton statelet republics in the east, it has to accept that ukraine | will be neutral and will never join the eu or nato. and everybody said, oh, i those are terms for trade

and negotiation. he's not mentioning denazification! - well, i have to say, - denazification was back in all its glory today, - so i think that was an example of, again, everybody slightly over interpreting sometimesj what it said, you know, in a totally natural - expectation of hope, well, maybe there isj some common ground. but, at the moment, i on the basis of today, very little evidence of it. are they even willing, james, to say that they are going to continue talking? well, the ukrainian foreign minister was willing - to do that. he said that. mr lavrov much less so. he said that the ukrainians - sometimes like to have meetings for the sake of having - meetings, which sort of raises the question, why was lavrov here in the first place? - it seems to have been - that he came here simply for no other reason than to say, - i was here, and so that no one can accuse him or the russians of not being at least _ willing to talk. but, as far as we can tell, - he did not come with anything on the table. one of the frustrations of - the ukrainian foreign minister was he said, you know, i i put forward these ideas of a 24 hour ceasefire, - a humanitarian corridor out of mariupol, but lavrov, - he said, did not seem empowered

to discuss that in any _ meaningful sense or even accept any agreement on that. i think that's one of- the curious things about this. that is a very key point. it's interesting you say that, james, because i think what we've learned in the past couple of weeks is that nobody apart from putin has any idea what russia's policy is now, so everyone is waiting, and my guess would be, from what you just said, james, that lavrov hasn't got a clear steer from putin as to what he should be talking about and so isjust sort of spouting out the nazi nonsense. a dangerous guessing game for everyone, even his closest allies. james, thank you so much for popping up. i know you've got a long list of things to get through tonight, so thank you as ever for being on. guys, while all of this happens, dialogue of the deaf, all of this sort of diplomacy but maybe not real if the russians have got no intention of even offering a genuine conversation... i should just add that i spoke to ukraine's deputy prime minister on, what day is it

today, on wednesday, yesterday, and she said... i said, what are you going to talk about with lavrov? she said, we are willing to discuss russian reparations and their capitulation. so, you know, there is an element where there are kind of equally hard lines coming out of both sides. and, while the politicians are not anywhere remotely near any kind of discussion, of course, it's ukrainians who are just suffering and suffering and suffering, and now, we learned today, more than 2 million people have now left the country. one of them, of course, is max and family, who you guys have been talking to almost daily on your podcast, ukrainecast. let's just show newscasters a bit of their story and then we'll have a chat about it. and also, before you listen to this, you've got to think of the kind of map that max has gone through, from ukraine to moldova to romania and then a plane to israel. but do we know what happened to him in the first place? he was basically in his apartment block in kyiv and it

got a direct hit from a missile and he was there with his wife and two sons. let's check in with him now. we were preparing the food i and luckily we were altogether in the kitchen while the - missile hit in the kids' room. it's on the opposite sidei of the flat and it was like complete hell, immediate blackout, fire and dust- and it was for god's sake we managed to survive, i i don't know how. it is like 1 billion chance for us. . how did you all feel when you got to israel? i felt myself, and i'm feeling. myself, like the happiest man in the world to be able, i with the help of so many friends, so many great people, to be able to get my family- in a safer place.

and my son is telling me he read on the news - in the social media right away that russian troops have - blocked the exit of more than 50 buses with the refugees, i but the people have been evacuated. - was that mark or george? it was mark. i just wanted to say to mark, we're so happy to see you and to talk to you. how are you? a bit well, yeah, preparing for the surgery tomorrow. 0k. hope for the... yes, i'm sure, i'm sure. i'm sure it will go well. how do you feel about the fact that you are now safe in jerusalem? it's brilliant to think, but worrying about other family left in ukraine, kyiv, mariupol and other cities, and much of my friends. and that was your co—presenter of ukrainecast, victoria derbyshire, talking to mark while he was live in a hospital bed. yeah. that's quite amazing.

you know, he'sjust one among thousands who've been injured and, as you said, laura, you know, millions who've left. i would just like to say, amidst all of this, lots of russians are having to leave their homes in russia as well. i mean, i've got a friend i spoke to at the end of last week, and he was in a state of great excitement. he was pumped with adrenaline and he was like, "we left, we left. " "i grabbed my wife, and my three kids under 12." "we ran for the airport, we got the last tickets, we're in dubai." "it was like in the movies," he said. why, just because they thought this country is going down... no, he's a journalist, and journalism is effectively now punishable by 15 years injail, and nobody knows the parameters any more. before, you knew what you could get away with and where, but now it's a guessing game. so he made a dash for it, he was pumped with adrenaline. when i spoke to him a few days later, the reality had sunk

in and he said to me, "oh, my god, i'm a refugee." "what happened to my middle—class moscow life?" "like, it's gone." ahd he can't get any of his money out. he can't use his visa cards because of the sanctions. so obviously they're not being bombed, but, you know, i keep thinking if ukraine comes through this with its independence intact, more or less, right? it's going to be a stronger country with a great sense of unity and purpose because of this experience. obviously, it's a tragedy, but it will come out of it stronger. russia — dark times ahead. gabriel, talk to us about your recent trip to chernobyl, because we've heard, haven't we, a lot of concern in the last couple of weeks about ukraine's nuclear sites, and how safe they are in the current context, in terms of their maintenance, the whole business last week of one of them being being shelled, or at least buildings close to it being shelled. tell us about that trip. well, so i went to chernobyl, because it's right

on the border with belarus, and it's pretty much exactly at the point, like, if you wanted to send a column of tanks down from the belarusian border, which is where the russians have this build—up forces, if you wanted to send a column of tanks down to to take kyiv, that would be the quickest route, you'd pretty much go through chernobyl. and belarus is close to russia, with lukashenko, an ally of putin, basically on his side, almost like a puppet government, right? exactly, a puppet government. so that's why we went there, and it was extraordinary to see this place that had been such a factor in the collapse of the soviet union, right? it was the fact that the nuclear reactor exploded and that moscow, that the soviet government in moscow didn't tell anyone about it for so long, because they wanted to cover it up and thereby exposing everyone to radiation, really, i think, woke people up in 1986 to the fact that their government didn't have their best interests at heart. and so this is one of the major factors that led to ukraine becoming an independent country in the first place, and just being there in this

place, which obviously was abandoned afterwards, so it's like a time capsule, right? you're there in the middle of this little fairground, a little soviet fairground, with a frozen ferris wheel and a bunch of frozen bumper cars. it's like this was the soviet union mid—1980s, and it's remained that way. and you really got this kind of strange premonition about which way the world was heading. but i couldn't even... i could not bring myself to believe it then. and now what are we? it's about a month since i was there. it really feels like russia is heading back to the soviet past. i mean, putin today has been talking about effectively nationalising the foreign businesses and their assets that are ceasing to work in russia. so i never thought i would use these two words next to each other in a sentence. he's talking about nationalising mcdonald's. i mean, this is mental.

that is spooky on quite a lot of levels. gabriel, thank you so much, and thank you forjoining our podcasting family. i'm so happy to be part of your family. what am i, a cousin or a brother? i'd go brother. half brother? bumped up to brother already! i think we said ukrainecast, we said sister podcast. ok, i'll take that. it's great to have you. thanks. well, now we can chat to labour's lisa nandy, who's the shadow secretary of state for levelling up. and like covid times, she'sjoining us from from oui’ spare room. hi, lisa! hello, good evening. can i say good evening? when are we? well, it's podcasting, so it's kind of all the time, really, but a lot of people will be watching this in the evening, so that's ok. well, first of all, i mean, the big news today on the home front is that the home office is radically changing the visa scheme for ukrainian people to come to the uk and join family members. they will not have to go to one of these processing centres across europe and get in a big queue. from tuesday, they'll be able to do it all digitally.

i suppose you're very pleased that that change has been made. yeah, absolutely relieved. you know, the reports that we've been getting from people who are being turned back at calais are just appalling. and to ask people who've fled putin, who've been witnessing bombing, shelling, who have young children, to travel hundreds of miles in order to try and make an application, it's just unconscionable. so this change that priti patel announced today, it's very, very welcome. but it's just so achingly slow and piecemeal, when what we really need is to treat this as the extraordinary circumstance that it is. we've just been through a global pandemic. we've just seen what this country can do when we need to. and these are not ordinary times, these are extraordinary times, and we need to mobilise in extraordinary ways in order to get help to people now. lisa, it's chris here. i hear your critique about what you describe as the government being far too slow in the last few days. but given what we now are hearing from the government in precise terms, how are you in a different place from what they are advocating, other than your critique about their slowness as you see it?

so the first thing is we've got to drop the onerous visa requirements, because as well as being very, very difficult for people who are applying for family reunion, who are trying to come here through the family visa, who still have to upload a whole series of documents that often they don't have, proving family connection, proving their own identities and so on, it's more complicated when you get to the community sponsorship scheme, because they have to go through that process before they can even start the next stage of the process, which is being matched with a sponsor. but, lisa, right now, are you suggesting dropping anything, give any evidence apart from very basic security checks or identity checks? is that what you're saying? yeah, i mean, we've said we think that they should drop some of the bureaucracy, and people should be required to provide biometric data,

which the armed forces have said they would stand ready and willing to help to try and process that very, very quickly. basic identity checks. we appreciate that some people won't have documentation, but given the sheer numbers of children that we're talking about, it is really, really important that we document who they are as they're coming into the country and where they're going. cos if you don't do that, i've seen it myself over the years when i used to work with child refugees, you will get child trafficking. so, you know, dropping all checks and requirements, absolutely not, because that is not in the interests of the people who are coming in. but we could cut some of the bureaucracy out right now, and the government has... privately, i think there are some government ministers who are more responsive to that. i think michael gove is actually quite receptive to that but doesn't seem to have any influence with the home office or the cabinet office. but that's the first thing that we should do, as well as sourcing accommodation.

there's been no effort so far on the part of the government to source available accommodation. so even if they do announce details of this community sponsorship scheme, they're just not in a position to get up and running very quickly. it'sjust simply not good enough, for me. on that specific around accommodation, where could theyjust find accommodation just like that? i'm just thinking about the practicalities here. whilst clearly there's a demand from lots of people for more to be done, in practical terms, these things can take time, can't they? whether it be housing, thinking about schooling, for instance. there's huge questions here. but, chris, that's precisely the point. this is more complicated than previous cohorts of refugees that we've seen. you know, for example, one of the charities today was telling me that because we're expecting a lot of older people, and you don't tend to get a lot of older refugees coming into the uk, for reasons that are fairly obvious, there'll be different health—care needs. we're not used to providing specialist refugee health support in areas like dementia, for example. so on exactly that point...

if they don't move now, the support won't be there for years and years on end, and that'sjust simply not good enough. in terms of where you get the accommodation from, the first thing they should do is set up a register so that they can keep a track of all of the people who are coming forward, the members of the public who are coming forward, who can offer accommodation and may act as sponsors. they could email local authorities. they haven't even picked up the phone to council leaders to ask them what accommodation capacity they've got in their own areas. this has been going on for weeks now, and yet not a single person in government has picked up the phone. it'sjust simply not good enough. and, lisa, would labour basically say that people should, you know, the taxpayer should just stump up however much is required to look after these people? i know that some people might think that's an insensitive question to ask, but, you know, obviously if people might come here for the very long term, you've just talked about health care needs, all kinds of things. sadly, ukrainians will not be able to be sure when, if ever, they might be able to go back to their country. should the taxpayer be willing to stump up however much it

takes to look after people who make it here? look, i was listening to nadhim zahawi, the education secretary, on peston the other night, and he said we've got to do our bit. he was talking about an uncapped number of people coming in through the community sponsorship scheme. i think the british public are way ahead of politicians on this. i think they know we've got to do our bit, and we're not currently doing it. two million people on the move, less than a thousand visa applications have even been processed. there are apparently 22,000 that are still in the system that they haven't even started on, and that's before you even look at people who don't have family members here in the uk. lisa, thank you very much for giving us lots to think about over the next couple of days — if this announcement does come. thank you, lisa, great to have you. well, it's interesting, adam, ministers were meeting this afternoon to think about, to discuss, to try to make decisions about this sponsorship scheme — what the speed of it should be, what the scale of it should be, what the eligibility should be. and, as lisa was suggesting, i did a bit of digging around today on the existing sponsorship scheme, and i think it's only taken about 500 or 600 people in the last five years, and it is very onerous. lots of paperwork, safeguarding

checks, financial checks, all sorts of things. so i think there's going to be huge pressure on the government from the opposition, and from some of their own mps as well, to come up with something that is quicker, bigger of scale, and many people might say bigger hearted. but it's none of this is straightforward. lovely to catch up with you all. and that's all for this episode of newscast. thank you for listening or watching, and we'll be back with another one very soon. bye. hello. the last couple of days, the weather really has been quite good. beautiful, sunny skies for some of us, particularly across eastern parts of the uk. but things are going to turn now — the cloud you can see on the satellite picture is a weather front, it's approaching. it means rain, wind,

and really, that's how it'll be over the next few days. so through the early hours of the morning, the outbreaks of rain are reaching western parts of the uk. even ahead of it, we have some rain across scotland and parts of england. but generally speaking, it is a dry night and early morning. very, very mild, 8—10 celsius in many areas. then quickly through the morning, the rain becomes quite heavy in southwestern parts of england, through wales, the midlands. the rain will reach wales and eventually southwestern scotland, too, and through the afternoon, i think many of us will have had at least some rain. now through the afternoon or so, it'll brighten up across wales and southwestern parts of england. sunshine and showers here the second half of the day. there could be some thunderstorms, too, and on top of that, the winds will strengthen. but you can see it across the uk —

it is a real mixed bag, i think, through friday and into friday night. now saturday, we see another area of low pressure with new fronts approaching us — this, once again, spells heavy rain initially for western parts of the uk. but in the southwest, as this low pressure increases, you can see strong winds blowing around it, and we could be talking about gusts of 60—70mph around the isles of scilly and the tip of cornwall. so really very blustery, even quite stormy weather for a time here. but elsewhere eastern parts of the country on saturday — look at that, newcastle, hull, london —— fine, sunshine. breezy, yes, but at least you'll have the sunshine. and then come sunday, that low pressure really spreads across the country. it'll become windy elsewhere, gale force winds around some of the coasts, but there will be plenty of sunny spells occasionally interrupted by some heavy showers brought in by those strong winds. so, yes, there'll be some sunshine around through the weekend, but there'll be blustery winds around, too, and heavy showers, with temperatures hovering around 12 celsius or so. how about next week? well, we're expecting the temperatures to rise

even as high as 17—18 celsius, at least temporarily, in southwestern parts of the uk. so the southerly winds will bring milder but changeable weather.

welcome to bbc news — i'm lewis vaughanjones. our top stories: we witness life on the frontline for ukrainian forces — fighting to defend the country's second largest city kharkiv from russia's relentless assault. if these tactics are unfamiliar to you, then you have not been paying attention because this is the russian attack playbook, perfected over ten years of war in syria. the ukrainian army head into no man's land towards russian forces — they say their spirits are stronger than ever. we are fighting on our land and protect our families, so it doesn't matter how they fight. we fight like lions and they will not win.