ukrainian forces are fighting to defend the country's second largest city kharkiv from russia's relentless assault. the city has endured nightly russian air attacks and suffered dozens of civilian deaths and hundreds of injuries. most of the city's one and a half million residents have fled. new satellite images show a large russian military convoy seen heading towards kyiv has now dispersed, with artillery redeployed in firing positions. the convoy was last seen northwest of the capital, near antonov airport. the images show armoured units manoeuvring in and through the towns close to the airport. more than 2 million people are thought to have fled the capital, kyiv, but others have arrived, after escaping from the russian soldiers moving closer to the city. humanitarian organisations have warned that many people have run out of food and are still living without water or gas.

now on bbc news, hardtalk with zeinab badawi. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. europe's dependence on russian energy sits uneasily with putin's war in ukraine. from such exports. one eu leader has said russian oil and gas is being bought with the blood of the ukrainian people. my guest is the prime minister of norway, jonas gahr store. norway is one of the world's biggest oil and gas exporters. what can it do to help ease europe off its addiction to russian energy supplies? and can this be done quickly enough to starve the kremlin war machine of funds and save the lives of innocent ukrainians?

jonas gahr store in oslo, welcome to hardtalk. now, you've been prime minister of norway since october. you already have a war in europe to contend with. how worried are you that the war will intensify and escalate? extremely worried. this is drama unfolding in europe. it's a war from the 19th century being fought in 2022, with iphones available to see the terrible realities of what it does to civilians, what it does to men and women escaping, what it does to infrastructure and the total destructive potential

of a military machine that has been building up for over a year and then, until it is unleashed on the neighbouring population. it's a dramatic setback for, i would say, civilisation in europe and an extraordinary wake—up call to what we all have to face now. nathalie tocci, who's an adviser tojosep borrell, who's the european union's foreign policy chief — now i know norway's not a member of the european union — nevertheless, she says that this is not only a war in europe, it's a war against europe. this is going to test the resolve of europe, isn't it? but it looks like, so far, europe's not stepping up. i wouldn't agree. you know, i think europe has been amazingly fast in adopting and voting for sanctions, very comprehensive sanctions. before this war, people in europe were saying that, you know, putin is pretty resistant to sanctions. he has calculated that

sanctions will come and he can sustain the sanctions. i think it's hurting much more. there has been extraordinary coordination. norway is not a member of the european union, but we are closely associated through the european economic area and we have joined the european sanctions alongside the european union, coordinated with the united kingdom, coordinated with the united states, contributions from japan, australia and others, so this is a pretty tough response. it's not militarily engaging in ukraine. i think it's important to keep nato out of a war in ukraine. we don't want that kind of confrontation, but we are responding in kind with humanitarian aid, and now we are preparing to help and receive a large number of refugees. so i think europe has come together pretty well. you've given the three planks there — the sanctions, the military assistance, and also the humanitarian acceptance of refugees. i'll come to all those. let's start with the sanctions first. so, the european union has said, look, we're going to try and cut our gas imports from russia by two thirds

by the end of the year. not so much movement on oil. so, i put it to you that europe is really holding back on the sanctions because it does not want to hurt its economies. it could do much more. well, you know, europe is also responsible for having functioning economies, and i think the decisions they have taken on gas is not necessarily a sanction, but it's a strategic choice of being less dependent on an energy resource from russia, which they see is vulnerable. but that can also be combined with another major undertaking we all have to do, namely to speed up transition to renewable energy. so, from a climate change perspective, from a 2030 perspective, you know, fit for cutting emissions, this may spur and accelerate investments in renewable energy, and that is very important, and norway will make its contribution in this sense. ok, i'll come back to that in a moment, but i really must persist with this,

which is the fact of the matter is, as things stand, the european union is still spending more than $1 billion a day on buying russian energy, oil and gas, and that is simply funding the kremlin�*s war machine, and it's being used to hammer the people of ukraine. that is the state of affairs now. you're trying to fight russian tanks with the banks, as it were, and it'sjust not going to be fast enough. well, you know, ithink your equation — i don't buy your equation. europe has to still fuel its economy in one way or the other. they're buying oil at the international market and they are, through a dramatic hike in gas prices and oil prices, hurting their economies, so they cannot kind of take down their own economies and, at the same time, resist what russia is doing. i think, you know, the signals here of quite comprehensive sanctions, quite comprehensive aid, quite comprehensive political unity in europe will make its mark.

and you know, it may be easy for countries not dependent on oil and gas to pass very harsh judgements on that. i can understand that european governments also have a responsibility to keep their economies going. russia is the world's second biggest oil exporter after saudi arabia, norway's about number seven. you also are about number three orfour when it comes to gas exports. why don't you pump more oil and supply europe with more gas? because we pump and supply at the maximum. you know, norway's whole way of operating is that we do that effectively and we extract our resources effectively with the lowest possible emissions, and we will always produce at the maximum. so i reassured european leaders that norway remains a reliable, long—term supplier of gas. we have, you know, done that to the utmost. there will be some additional gas coming from norway in terms of liquefied gas on ships,

which will come on the market towards the summer. so that will be a 5% increase of what norway can provide. but norway's contribution will go beyond that on energy, because doing this renewable transition that has to be done, both to reach our climate goals and to make ourselves less dependent on energy from russia, we have to make a big push on renewables. so, you know, there is now a big undertaking in europe of expanding ocean wind, expanding solar energy, expanding a lot of these energy sources that we have to do anyway, and now we can speed it up, and norway, with this technology and experiences, will be part of that. all right, so you're looking at the fact that the high price for fossil fuels is going to accelerate the drive to use more renewable energy, green sources. but you don't know when that's going to happen because we're already hearing european leaders saying, "oh, look, italy's looking at using more coal." the germans are saying —

robert habeck, the german economics minister, says, "europe may be forced to burn more coal in the face of russian aggression and spiralling gas prices". it's looking at perhaps reviving its nuclear power. in the united kingdom, the government is perhaps looking at lifting the moratorium on fracking for shale gas. so, this goes against what you're saying, that actually it's going to drive more renewable energy. but this is a drama of war. you know, this transition towards renewables, i would have wished to see that happen in a planned and orderly fashion. now we have war on the continent, and what you just now say is that, you know, europe has to fuel its economy with energy, and i regret that they may have to revert to coal and maybe — i mean, i expect if there is nuclear, it has to be safe nuclear. what norway can do is to say that our gas will come on the market. it will be gas that is produced with the least of emissions from the fields.

and norway's also leading the way for what is called carbon capture and storage, which is something europe has to do to reach its target. we have to capture co2 and store it safely. so, you know, this process, when there is war and energy is falling out, democracies will have to find some replacements. but the most important strategic push is to speed up the production of renewable energy, and then we have a large potential and we all have to contribute. ok, so the principles are very clear from what you're saying, prime minister, jonas gahr store, but it's the time frame i'm talking about. and so both when it comes to not buying russian energy, you know, the eu is now saying, look, we're going to try and wean ourselves off that by 2030. that's quite a while away. the international energy agency has now said the question of whether to delay the planned retirement of european nuclear plants is a delicate issue

which may merit debate and the bloc could increase coal—fired power generation. so i put it to you that in the short and medium term, we're not going to achieve these goals that you're setting because of the war, correct? well, only partly, because you are right, you cannot achieve major build—up of ocean wind in a few months. you know, you need planning for that, but you can accelerate it. german government intends to build wind power on 2% but it can be accelerated. the european union is planning for substitutes to russian oil and gas, that's part of the european planning, will probably not be done in the very short term, but pretty short term. so when decisions because of the war will have to be taken to do this replacement of russian gas at a faster rate than they would have done otherwise, of course, it will take some time,

but it can accelerate. that's the point, it will take some time and the war is going on at a much, much more rapid pace. people are being killed and wounded as we speak, and the measures which europe is introducing to try to squeeze the kremlin of finance is going in slow motion. and, you know, volodymyr zelensky, president of ukraine, says, "please don't buy russian oil, support us." but that's the point i was making to you right from the beginning. this is a test of european resolve and europe is failing. but you know, to be honest, if europe were to stop buying oil and gas from russia, it will not stop the war machine fighting in ukraine, regretfully. if that had been the case... but europe is financing the war machine, isn't it? it's actually financing the war machine. i mean, look at the russian

economy as a result of these sanctions. you know, it's an economy taking a major, major blow. what we have to do is to support ukraine, and norway has made a landmark decision of now providing military equipment to the resistance of the ukrainian people, something we have not done in the past. there is humanitarian aid coming in, there is financial pressure put on russia, and there has to be support and messages to ukraine that we will help rebuild ukraine once this war is over and i, you know, we still have to hope that it's not a war that russia is going to win. but let me just be clear, i think making this assumption that if there was no buying of russian oil, it would be over at the battlefield, unfortunately, that is not the case with this president in moscow. all right, we're seeing energy prices go through the roof — you know, oil is at around $140 a barrel, iii—year high — and this is greatly expanding your revenues in norway. you're a small country with five million people. your oil fund, your sovereign wealth fund is about, what, 1.3 trillion? you're going to be getting a lot more money now as a result of all this. can you spend all that money on helping ukraine? i mean, we will take our responsibility for ukraine.

just to inform you, you're right. we put this — this money comes into our sovereign wealth fund. i would have wished to have seen half of those prices. it's not something norway is calling for, having these high prices, so, yes, they will maybe increase revenues on that side. on the other side, this fund is reduced in its value from the stock exchange, which is where it has placed most of its money. but, yes, norway has already made important financial contributions to the humanitarian aid, and we will step up that. we will do that in cooperation with the united nations, with the leading humanitarian organisations and with european partners. we are very conscious about our responsibility and our opportunity both to lead on the energy transition and also to follow up a tradition we have in norway of being, you know, forward leaning on humanitarian aid.

ok, on humanitarian aid, how many refugees are you going to take? because so far, i believe you've only taken a few hundred. you look at countries like poland — obviously, admittedly in the neighbourhood, near ukraine — taken well over a million. are you going to be stepping up your efforts on taking refugees and allowing them to work for three years, as the european union is going to allow them? we have taken a decision, alongside the european union, to give collective protection to ukrainians, so we will not make individual cases but, you know, as a ukrainian, you can come to norway. we are not neighbouring ukraine — we are 1,500 kilometres from ukraine. i have welcomed the polish prime minister here in oslo two days ago, reassuring him that, you know, people who come to poland, they can travel on to other european countries, including norway. and there are already refugees — primarily young women, mothers, families

coming to norway. i have visited them and we stand ready to receive them. it does not make sense to put a figure on that because this crisis is unfolding, but i believe the nordic countries, scandinavian countries and the european countries will stand by to support the bordering countries of ukraine. all right. you've also said that norway is providing ukrainians with some military equipment — anti—tank weapons, protective vests, helmets and so on — but i want to put to you what fabrice pothier, a former head of policy at nato who has served under the current secretary generaljens stoltenberg, and he says he's disappointed and that nato needs to engage more. he says, "not getting involved is not the way "to deal with putin. "nato needs to get engaged more actively, not with boots "on the ground, but through more pressure on putin's war "machine." i don't want to go through the arguments of the no—fly zone — i know thatjens stoltenberg has said no intentions of moving into ukraine either on the ground or in the airspace, but shouldn't nato be doing more?

you know, i think nato�*s primary responsibility is to secure the security of 30 nato states. we have the article 5 of collective security. that is what nato is really about. so, we are reassuring nato members. norway is sending troops to lithuania. we are supporting, with part of our navy, in the mediterranean to support the security of the military alliance. when it comes to ukraine, i believe it is not primarily nato,but it is nato countries bordering countries that have to step up, and god knows, poland, romania, slovakia have really contributed by receiving these refugees in a way which is extremely impressive and then, european countries and like norway, we are contributing with humanitarian aid and also with military equipment, which i believe is necessary and called for when a neighbouring country in europe is being attacked, like we have seen in ukraine.

but, i mean, fabrice pothier says, "if civilian casualties "continue to mount, there will be pressure on western "leaders to do something. "this can be avoided by being much more engaged now." so, do you think there should be greater engagement to put pressure on president putin? perhaps patrol the baltic sea and try and cut him off that way? there's got to be something more that's got to be done. well, but, you know, this adviser coming out of nato service, he is not very precise what he is calling for. we are patrolling the baltic sea. we are air patrolling over the baltic states. norway is bordering russia. we are nato�*s ears and eyes in the north. we have our planes out flying to control and monitor peace and lower tension in our areas, so we are taking that responsibility. but, you know, i really think if we think concretely about it, engaging nato inside ukraine, unleashing war between nato and russia,

that is not responsible, that's not going to help ukraine, and i believe it will be irresponsible to move in that direction, and i think that is a pretty common view by european and allied leaders. all right, you say that norway is the eyes and ears of nato in the north and certainly, norway is one of five nato countries, along with the baltic republics and poland, to share a border with russia. you also have a nearly 200km—long border, as well as a maritime boundary that extends almost to the north pole, so do you want extra protection from nato now? we want to maintain stability, predictability and long—term presence of cooperation with our allies. we have no foreign bases in norway. we have no stationed nuclear arms in norway. we have a mantra which says, "high north, low tension". we don't exercise militarily close up to the russian border. we have a cooperation, you

know, neighbour—to—neighbour with russia, dealing with search and rescue in these arctic waters. we have fishery protection, fishery management to do together. and norway's defence and security is based on two pillars. one, our own defence, which is strong in navy and air capacity, and our nato membership. so it is really the combination of having allies who train with us and know how it is to operate in norway and norway's own ability to manage a neighbourhood. you know, crises up in the north are rarely created in the north. they come from other sides, so tension in ukraine spreads to the north. it's our responsibility to see to it that that tension does not get out of control because we live with the border and about 100km from one of the world's largest nuclear arsenals, so it takes responsibility and predictability to manage this. sure. and every two years, nato holds exercises

in northern norway, and they're going to begin this month, the biggest since the end of the cold war. i wanted to put to you what professor rasmus bertelsen from the university of tromso in norway says. he says, "conducting such a big military exercise in northern "norway now in light of the horrible situation "in eastern europe is rather risky". so, despite all this, you still believe that you should engage in dialogue with russia. i have to say russia has observer status over these exercises, but it's not attending this time round. but you think that's a good principle, to maintain this open dialogue, as it were, with russia? you know, there's not much dialogue with russia. i was foreign minister for seven years of norway, and i negotiated with russia a delimitation line in the barents and arctic sea. those were very detailed negotiations and led to a very modern treaty securing peace and order in the north, then we had dialogue.

that was another window of opportunity around 2010. today, what's happening in ukraine? there is little dialogue. but military exercises, this one has been planned for many years. it has been announced, it has been presented and russia has been invited as an observer. so, this has basically nothing to do with what happens in ukraine, but it is an illustration of the relevance of nato operating and training under winter conditions. and if you want winter conditions, you get them if you go to the north and norway. ok, we're seeing some shifting sands amongst your nordic neighbours. both sweden and finland, talk now of them joining nato. they're not members, like yourselves. and finland, the government there says it's having a political debate. the swedish prime minister, magdalena andersson, has said, "look, we don't

really want to join" and so on. but look, do you think that there is now a bit of momentum towards finland and swedenjoining nato? and would you welcome that? well, sweden and finland are our closest neighbours, you know, geographically we are very close and also historically and culturally. and my answer to this is the following — i have every confidence in the ability of the governments of sweden and finland to make thatjudgement. it's one of the very key judgements countries have to make. finland and sweden are nato�*s closest partners outside nato. and here in the nordic region, we have intensified our security cooperation and also military cooperation with common exercises, common training, common procurement, and i wish to see more of that. we can do that under today's circumstances. and then, for norway's security, it is important to say that sweden and finland, as advanced modern states, should have the complete freedom to make their choice. all right, well, i guess you might be saying that. very briefly now, how do you think this is all going to end? you started this interview saying this is a fight

about european values. do you think authoritarianism or those european values of civilisation, as you put it, are going to prevail? i think european civilisation is going to prevail. authoritarian rule based on military power, now what we see is a dictatorship, is not part of the european heritage we have to safeguard and take forward. i don't believe that this is a government of the future. it's not what people want. people are turning away from this. people want freedom, people want human rights, people want democracy. and that is the biggest provocation of ukraine towards russia, is that they have turned towards these values. and this is what i believe is the core thing of this tragic war, is that russia is intervening militarily to stop this political drift towards freedom and democracy. so we have to really stand by our own values, protect them, support ukraine to the very potential of what we can do, look

beyond and see what we can do to help rebuild ukraine once this is over. jonas gahr store, prime minister of norway, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. hello. the last couple of days, the weather really has been quite good. beautiful, sunny skies for some of us — particularly across eastern parts of the uk — but things are going to turn now. the cloud you can see on the satellite picture is a weather front. it's approaching. it means rain, wind and, really, that's how it'll be

over the next few days. so through the early hours of the morning, the outbreaks of rain are reaching western parts of the uk. even ahead of it, we have some rain across scotland and parts of england but, generally speaking, it is a dry night and early morning. very, very mild — 8—10 celsius in many areas. then quickly through the morning, the rain becomes quite heavy in south—western parts of england, through wales, the midlands. the rain will reach wales and eventually south—western scotland, too, and through the afternoon, i think many of us will have had at least some rain. now, through the afternoon or so, it'll brighten up across wales and south—western parts of england. sunshine and showers here second half of the day. there could be some thunderstorms, too, and on top of that, the winds will strengthen. but you can see it across the uk — it is a real mixed bag, i think, through friday and into friday night. now, saturday, we see another area of low pressure with new fronts approaching us. this, once again, spells heavy rain initially for western parts of the uk but in the south—west, as this low pressure increases, you can see

strong winds blowing around it — and we could be talking about gusts of 60—70mph around the isles of scilly and the tip of cornwall, so really very blustery, even quite stormy weather for a time here. but elsewhere, eastern parts of the country on saturday — look at that, newcastle, hull, london fine, sunshine. breezy, yes, but at least you'll have the sunshine. and then come sunday, that low pressure really spreads across the country. it'll become windy elsewhere, gale force winds around some of the coasts, but there will be plenty of sunny spells occasionally interrupted by some heavy showers brought in by those strong winds. so, yes, there'll be some sunshine around through the weekend but there'll be blustery winds around, too, and heavy showers, with temperatures hovering around 12 degrees or so. how about next week? well, we're expecting the temperatures to rise even as high as 17 or 18 celsius, at least temporarily, in south—western parts of the uk, so the southerly winds will bring milder but changeable weather.

this is bbc news. i'm ben boulos with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. new satellite images show the russian military convoy heading towards kyiv has now dispersed with artillery deployed in firing positions moscow requests a meeting of the un security council after claiming, without evidence, that the us is developing chemical weapons in ukraine. it is something the ukrainian leader denies.— it is something the ukrainian leader denies. what else have ou leader denies. what else have you prepare — leader denies. what else have you prepare for— leader denies. what else have you prepare for us? _ leader denies. what else have you prepare for us? where - leader denies. what else have l you prepare for us? where were your strike with their chemical weapons? at the maternity hospital at mariupol or another hospital at mariupol or another hospital in kyiv awe at the

children's hospital?