tv Global Questions BBC News March 12, 2022 2:30am-3:01am GMT
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across ukraine with more intense fighting reported in the countryside. russian troops are also beginning to regroup around the capital kyiv. moscow says it has now hit military airfields in the western cities of lutsk and ivano—frankivsk. the central eastern city of dnipro has been targetted for the first time. a russian air strike killed at least one person and damaged several civilian areas. fire and smoke could be seen rising from the city centre. authorities say apartment blocks and factories were hit. russia has called for foreign volunteers to fight alongside its troops in ukraine, suggesting there were thousands in the middle east ready tojoin. the us state department said any deployment of syrian fighters in ukraine would mark a further escalation of moscow's unjustified aggression. now on bbc news, global questions.
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hello, welcome to global questions. with me, they now badawi. —— with me, zeinab badawi. i am in the lithuanian capital of vilnius and president putin's invasion of ukraine has sent shock waves across the three baltic states of lithuania, estonia and latvia. these were once part of the soviet union and they all share a border with russia. but unlike ukraine, they are members of nato and washington says it will protect every inch of nato territory. so, how reassuring is that to people here? after all, many believed putin would never invade ukraine. applause.
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i'm in a former cement factory that is now part of the vilnius technical university and i'm joined here by a local audience who are going to be putting their tough questions to my top panel. so, let me tell who my guests are. we'rejoined by the deputy foreign minister of lithuania, mantas adomenas. the ambassador who is head of the european union's delegation to ukraine, matti maasikas. ukraine's ambassador to lithuania, petro beshta. and the former nato director of policy, fabrice pothier. including with the current secretary general, jens stoltenberg. that's our panel, give them another round of applause. welcome to you all. and remember, you too can join the conversation — it's #bbcglobalquestions. well, so much to get through today so, without further ado, let's go to our first question. monica, your question please?
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i would like to know - what happens if putin decides to move to the baltic states next. - which country would be next or the first one, i could it be lithuania? i think that's to you first, the lithuanian deputy foreign minister. there aren't so many choices among the baltic countries and yes, there are reasons to suppose that lithuania might be the one to attack because we have the suwalki gap, the iookm that separates us from poland, which is the only land linked to a nato country and the rest of nato by land, but i would like us to be less apprehensive about this because what the war in ukraine has showed is two things — one, is that yes, the kremlin regime is cynical, aggressive, absolutely murderous in its intent, but also militarily quite weak. the fact that we are in nato, the fact that we are protected
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by nato security guarantees is, i think, a great reassurance that we are certainly superior to that bumbling, barbarian force which we see rampaging through the cities of ukraine. we should to do everything we can for ukraine but we shouldn't be too afraid that we cannot defend and cannot be defended by nato ourselves. so, don't be too afraid but don't be complacent — is that what you're saying? absolutely. as european union ambassador to ukraine, what's your response? our nations have lived here in this neighbourhood for thousands of years. on the edge of our civilisation, if you will, in the last homely house. and life in the last homely house is quite liveable provided that you take precaution. and the nations have taken that precaution. we belong to the most successful military alliance in the history of mankind.
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so, the risks are there but the precaution has been taken and i fully agree that beside the question of what's next for the baltics, there is at the moment the question of what's next for russia. 0k, well, we'll come to that. fabrice pothier, you have insights into nato's thinking and there is a thought that president putin wants to restore the soviet union — that's what the president of lithuania has said? yes, i think the one headline i will give is don't underestimate weakness. the vice foreign minister just explained that, indeed, putin has shown his weakness in not being able to basically so far conduct successfully a military campaign over ukraine, and this is a good thing in a way, that he's failing, but failure can also be dangerous because that means he's going to fall back on what
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basically russia still has going for itself, which is nuclear weapons, cruise missiles and cyber. so, weakness can also hide some strengths, and we should not underestimate this. right, ok, so there is reason for concern and worry here in the baltics. yes. ambassador, what's your response to that question? i think that russia must be stopped in ukraine and if it is stopped in ukraine, it will not go further, and that is only possible if europe will not stick to half measures. europe was going well but this is only halfway up the road and the response to this historical moment is totality. totality is what ukrainians are living now. they are total defence, total sanctions and total isolation of russia. if europe, if transatlantic community is able to embrace this totality, then it will stop putin in ukraine and he will go no further.
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ok, let's go to our next question, from tomas. is the russian federation really capable of fighting | a war against nato? and also, is there a real threat of world war iii?| thanks. fabrice pothier? first, this is a war in europe, and the last two world wars started in europe, so i think we have cause for concern. second, indeed, on paper, there are more nato soldiers than russian soldiers but russia also has some weapons that can cause devastating effects. and clearly, president putin is not shy from talking about those weapons, so i think it falls on us to send a very clear, strong signal that there is no talk of nuclear weapons and nuclear war because nato is also a nuclear alliance and that the use of nuclear weapons will have a devastating consequence for all parties. and the fact that nato has not
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pushed back explicitly in this manner is, i think, setting a dangerous precedent. deputy foreign minister, is the russian federation up to fighting nato, or could it resort to extremely dangerous methods — nuclear weapons? that's precisely the symmetry. that, of course, nato as an alliance is stronger than russia. russia is nothing but, to quote, "the upper volta "with nuclear weapons." to look at its economy and structure of its governance and so on and so forth, it is a corrupt, backward state that only can thrive because it has this nuclear weapon. but, of course, while fighting that war, it can do a lot of damage, kill lots of people because they are not concerned for human lives, they are not concerned for humanitarian rules, so our goal should notjust be to have deterrent as a sort of abstract thing but to have a very active
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defence here in the baltic countries, in lithuania, to actually show that we are prepared to fight for every inch when it happens. not to retake the baltic countries if the russians invaded, but actually to fight for every inch — just as our brave ukrainian friends are doing now for their cities, not yielding an inch without the russians paying the price for it in blood. ambassador, if you do what the deputy foreign minister is suggesting there and push putin in a corner because nato is stronger militarily, a we've just heard, could that not force him into taking desperate measures — i.e., nuclear weapons? to answer the question, the short answer is whether russia would be able to fight nato. according to what we have being seeing in ukraine over the last ten days, the answer is no. ambassador, you believe that nato has got a stronger military capability than the russian federation but your position
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in ukraine is nato is not using it because ukraine — you — are not a member of nato, correct? i would say that if ukrainians could stop and resist the russian army, then nato and europe acting stronger will really deter russian aggression further. and i would also mention that nuclear disaster comes not only from nuclear weapons but also from nuclear power plants. we have seen recently the russian army occupied a nuclear power plant in zaporizhzhia and if they drop a bomb there, it will be a disaster six times stronger than chernobyl — it will cover all europe — and we have to prevent that, and that's why nato with no—fly zones and additional air defence capabilities must go into ukraine and provide ukraine with them. let me come to you, camille, because i think you've got a comment on this? well, yeah. we can now see that the russian army is not as strong _ as we believed.
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i mean, the morale is not good, they have poor equipment, - so i'm not sure that they would have the capacityl to come and fight our countries. - so, do you agree with that? you don't? because we are hearing stories about russian soldiers deserting or going into supermarkets and trying to get food because they're starving. that seems accurate and we see a picture of a russian military campaign that is stalling and not going well, but i think russia does not only have land forces at its disposal, it has an air force which it has not used very much now. it has, as we mentioned, nuclear weapons, cruise missiles, very sophisticated weaponry, strategic submarines, so they can take the fight elsewhere. this is my point. the baltic, the high north, these are the regions where you don't need land forces to prevail. so, yes, we all want russia
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to fail and we are seeing for the moment a campaign that is failing but we should not partake in wishful thinking for the end of the campaign and we therefore need to be much more engaged with our ukrainian brothers and partners. in that case, if you want to engage with your ukrainian brothers, as you said, give them the no—fly zone they have been demanding from nato. if they want, i think they need to have all the gear they need to prosecute that war... crosstalk. ..and i think nato should also do its part and exert much more military pressure on the putin war machine in the baltic and the black sea, in cyber and providing air defences, absolutely. whether the no—fly zone is a good idea or not, i don't know, but i know we need to do everything that is sensible. president zelensky of ukraine seems to think it's a good idea, correct? right. president zelensky insists the no—fly zone should be instituted over ukraine because russia maintains a high superiority in air power and we need to match this with air defence complexes in ukraine and with stronger
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aeroplanes coming to ukraine from our partners. deputy foreign minister, you in the baltics are showing lots of support for ukraine. when it comes to being a member of nato, are you supporting the ukrainians in saying a no—fly zone policed by nato, carried out by nato, is what we are supporting? well, we must be clear what a no—fly zone is. a no—fly zone means that somebody has to shoot down the planes which are not complying with that/ so, in fact, whose planes are going to be shooting down russian jets and russian bombers? if these are going to be nato planes, then nato is going to be in direct war with russia. this is a sort of direct implication of those who say that nato should police the no—fly zone. so, we — yes, we press for all the sanctions in all the european forae... but not the no—fly zone? ..we press for all military
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assistance to ukraine and, yes, i think we should be thinking about enabling — giving ukrainians the military hardware to enforce a no—fly zone. that's to say, to regain the skies. but it's very important, a no—fly zone is not a silver bullet, it's not a panacea. you know, there are cruise missiles, there are artillery which the no—fly zone is not going to affect. let's be very clear about that. ambassador, what do you think when you hear this? what's your response? i think that we need to start immediately with air defence systems in ukraine and with providing assistance with air jets to ukraine from nato. we need them for yesterday. and that will be a decisive move by our partners. let's see what the audience think. put up your hand if you believe that nato should enforce
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a no—fly zone over the skies of ukraine to stop civilians being hammered by the russian air force. put up your hand if you think that should be the case. ok, i would say about a third. put up your hand if you think not. i would say slightly, marginally more. so, it seems that the numbers are fairly evenly balanced with a slightly bigger number saying no to a no—fly zone. all right. let's go to our next question, please. paul, what is your question? ? are the current sanctions effective _ and do they go far enough? ambassador? concerning sanctions, we have to move swiftly and go all the way forward. it's all about stronger sanctions against russia that can force them to stop. first of all, it's about oil and gas embargo. just look at the figures — every day revenues from oil and gas for russia, for russian budget, for putin, more than $1 billion.
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that's a day from the european union. every day, this money goes to putin's pockets to buy new tanks, to buy new missiles, which then destroy our civilian infrastructure and kill people. if we want to prevent this humanitarian disaster, we have to move very fast with those critical sanctions. ambassador, the european union has imposed sanctions but they've only been partial on energy so far? the eu indeed has moved very quickly on the sanctions, sanctioning the central bank, listing people, introducing what nobody really believed would be introduced, the ban on swift on some russian banks, and it has certainly hampered putin's regime's ability to finance that war. if you look at the fact that the moscow stock exchange
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has not been open for two weeks, if you see that the russian companies listed in london have lost almost all their value. but i agree more can be done and as we speak, new discussions on new sanctions, including on oil and gas, are being discussed in brussels. let's go to our next question. your question, please. what will it take for nato to make an exception- and actually help ukraine, a non—member country? i what will be the red flag to make nato act? - fabrice? in my view, that red flag is already here, and that's the nuclear blackmail that vladimir putin is trying to impose on us and accepting it is setting a precedent and a very dangerous one. probably in a more politically realistic way, sadly, the red flag could be very significant civilian death
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imposed by basically a russian war machine that is going to go with a vengeance. so, just ask you, very significant civilian deaths — haven't enough ukrainian civilians died already? ido agree... so what's the figure then? what's significant? 10,000, 50,000, 100,000? i think you should ask members of the us congress, you should ask our leaders what is the moral threshold when they will have an imperative to intervene? this is a real question. and, sadly, we are waiting for that while, in my view... we are sadly waiting for more people to die? i think that's what leaders are doing. can i ask you, deputy foreign minister, do you agree with that, that we have to see more ukrainian bodies pile up before nato has to act? the political will to act as been mobilising very quickly and i hope, and lithuania will do everything in its power
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that in the coming days, we see — we see sort of much more readiness to move with military assistance to maybe think of new, unprecedented ways we can be helping ukraine militarily, but also, also move with sanctions. of course, i totally agree that what has been mentioned, that current sanctions where only sort of part of the banking sector is covered is totally inadequate. where buying oil and gas is totally inadequate. we have been advocating this and the plight of these millions of ukrainians who have been driven from their homes, who are dying, who are being bombed while they're trying to escape by the people who do not provide humanitarian corridors, i think this will change hearts and minds in europe quicker than we think. ambassador? i hope we will not wait for another thousand civilian victims to act, and this is the biggest mistake
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that the west was doing a number of times. we need not to respond and not to be couple of steps behind the aggressor. we need to retain the initiative and act proactively. and there is every sign that russia, after ukrainians have broken their blitzkrieg, now they are using this scenario of human catastrophe and nuclear blackmail. they are bombing civilian objects and that will be more with every day. so the west and nato need to take initiatives, to understand war in europe is already on its way, we need to act proactively. let's go to our next question now. your question, please. why not to fast track ukraine into the eu, | as president zelensky has been requesting? thank you. ambassador? these discussions are ongoing at the eu leaders level, heads of state
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and government level. all enlargement—related questions are decided by unanimity. there are two aspects in the enlargement question. the first is moral — if a nation... ukraine is a european country by history, by culture, by economy, all those things. if a nation has decided to become european also politically, so who are we to say that you can't? and then there's a practical aspect, how the enlargement policy makes countries a better place and a safer place, even before the actual accession takes place, something that we in the baltic states did experience in the 19905. but i want to underline that while all enlargement—related questions are always highly political,
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they are discussed, but they are discussed at a very quick pace now. deputy foreign minister? the latest count is that there are certainly more countries in the eu that are in favour of facilitating ukrainian succession, but this has to be unanimous. there's a lot of resistance too. so we have to argue that ukraine has bought its right to be in the eu with the blood that it's shedding to defend europe. ambassador, you hear the belgium prime minister saying a close partnership with ukraine is desirable but eu membership, that's something completely different and it's a much longer process. then you hear people like the lithuanians saying, "actually, let'sjust accelerate it a bit." what's your view? we see the very important critical moments of history unfold before our eyes
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and the vision of the new europe isjust built now. ukraine is making a biggest, huge investment into this new europe, into the security of europe, and now, europe has to invest in ukraine to let us resist russia and to protect europe from this aggression. europe needs to make a bigger investment into the future of ukraine and grant this status under a special procedure very fast. 0k, fabrice? ukrainians are fighting for europe, so what will it take european leaders to invite now ukraine tojoin a club that is de facto already a member, because what they're doing is they're fighting for free europe! applause a ringing endorsement there. and a final question. could the war in ukraine have been prevented? l 0k, a brief answer
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from all of you, please. the western world did very much to prevent the war. you saw, since the build—up of the russian troops started in early november, you have seen an unprecedented public and also behind—the—scenes diplomacy. this did not prevent that war, unfortunately. deputy foreign minister? look, in 2008, when ukraine and georgia were denied a membership action plan from nato, we said, look, russia are going to attack now. everyone is saying, no, no, we were called baltic russophobes with these theories. summer 2008, georgia is attacked and we are saying ukraine is next. no, who is not going to attack ukraine? 2014, ukraine is attacked. so, we could have prevented it if we accepted and gave membership action plan to ukraine and georgia in 2008.
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we could have prevented it if we do not allow putin to get away with these two wars in 2008 and 2014. now, we reap what we sow and that's why we have to be in greater solidarity because it's partly our miscancellations and our past errors. all right. ambassador? i think that this war could have been prevented and if europe could have acted like it did during recent weeks a decade ago, if they could see what we have seen in ukraine and eastern partners, how we see the russian threat. if they could mobilise and act as they act now, but much, much earlier, we could have prevented this war. final point? i think it is clear that putin does not respect weakness but he will stop at strength and basically, over the past 10, 20 years, we have shown far too much weakness and too many
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shades of grey and it's time to be much more radical and clear about where we stand. all right. very quickly — show of hands from my audience here in vilnius — put up your hand if you think that, after ukraine, it could be the baltics next who are in the sights of president putin? and put up your hands if you think not. so, i would say that's pretty even. so, clearly, from my audience here at the vilnius technical university, real cause for concern about who might next be the object of president putin's aggression. that's all from this edition of global questions. thank you to my panel, thank you to my audience and to you, wherever you are watching or listening to this programme. remember, we are the programme that brings you the trend lines behind the headlines. until the next time, from me and the rest of the global questions team, goodbye. applause
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this weekend, it's going to be a mixed bag. there's certainly some sunshine on the way, but many of us will need our umbrellas as well. now, right now, a weather front is crossing the british isles, extensive cloud out there. it's rain—bearing cloud. this is how it's going to stay for the next few hours or so. it's very mild out there as well. by early on saturday morning, temperatures will be around 7 or 8 degrees celsius. it might be a little bit colder across parts of northern ireland in rural spots, maybe down to around 2 or so if the skies clear and the winds drop out. so, the forecast for the morning shows a lot of cloud and some rain across scotland, parts of northern england, brighter across the rest of england and wales, and in fact, some decent sunny spells here through the middle of the afternoon. and i think the best of the weather will be the further east you are,
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but notice this sort of curl of rain here, this is a low pressure that's swinging into the south—west of the uk — not only rain, but also some very strong winds. we're talking of gusts of 50, 60, maybe even 70mph, so really quite stormy around some of the coasts for a time, but we are only talking about the tip of cornwall, perhaps devon, maybe southern parts of wales — so not widespread gales, but very, very windy indeed, so take it steady if you are across this part of the world through saturday and saturday night. elsewhere, it won't be quite so windy. now, let's have a look at sunday's weather map. low pressure just off the coast of scotland there, but pretty much dominating the weather across the uk. so this is early sunday. you can see a weather front curling into this area of low pressure, outbreaks of rain, sunny spells and a mixture of showers in the afternoon. it's going to be that changeable day and very gusty winds right across the country, we're talking 30, 40, maybe even 50mph around some exposed coasts. so on saturday, the winds will be strong here. on sunday, it will be blustery right across the uk.
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temperatures on sunday typically between 10 and 12 degrees celsius. not as mild as it's been, but, you know, mild enough. monday, a much better day. the winds will be lighter, there will be more sunshine around, still some showers across northern parts of the country, but in the south, it really is an improving picture. and that's how it's going to be over the next few days into next week. in fact, in the south of the country, temperatures could even peak at around about 17 or 18 degrees. so a mixed weekend and then better the week ahead. bye— bye.
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welcome to bbc news. i'm lewis vaughan jones. our top stories: gunfire. attacks on ukraine target more cities and extend further into the country and russian troops regroup around the capital kyiv. we have just come through the last ukrainian checkpoint. up ahead is no man's land, and the next checkpoint is in the hands of the russians. crying. the pain and suffering continues for the ukrainians unable to leave the capital. an air strike on dnipro damages apartment blocks and hits a factory: we have a special report from the city. the site is one of complete devastation. the smoke is still rising from the ruins of this building hours after the missiles struck.
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