gunshots on the outskirts of the ukrainian capital kyiv — as russia pushes into new areas across the country. ukraine's president remains defiant. 100% confident that they will win. there will be a victory but 100% we don't really know when it happens. residents of the city of melitopol have reportedly come out to protest against the alleged abduction of the mayor by russian forces. ukraine says it hopes a number of humanitarian corridors from the besieged city of mariupol

will open up , and accuses russia of blocking supplies. meanwhile the international diplomacy continues — the french and german leaders spend more than an hour talking by phone with vladimir putin. now on bbc news talking business. as the death toll has grown in ukraine western governments and multi—national companies have hit back with unprecedented economic and business sanctions. a warm welcome to talking business. here is what is coming up this week. the world hits russia with sanctions. governments take a stand and global brands pull out. it is an unprecedented response from the west

but is it enough to force change? i will speak to a leading lawyer who has helped companies and individuals navigate the threat of sanctions. and i will look at what could happen next with one man advising the american government on its sanction strategy. and later in the programme, the view from inside ukraine. i will speak to the boss of the company which supplies a fit of the company which supplies a fit of the energy to the country. amid the constant bombardment, how is the firm keeping the power supply flowing? wherever you are watching, welcome to the programme. much of the world has rounded on russia for its invasion of ukraine. and by the

death toll has mounted, a coalition of western governments has imposed massive sanctions. more unusually, multinational companies have also taken a stand, halting operations and business with russia. the aim is to hit the country in its pockets. he was how the russian economy is fed in recent years, growing sharply after the collapse of the soviet union. but in 2014 you can see the impact that sanctions had imposed after russia's annexing of crimea. soaring global oil prices did prompt a recovery but like elsewhere, the pandemic it growth in 2020. what impact could sanctions have this time around? the us has been at the forefront of international efforts to cripple russia's economy on multiple fronts.— multiple fronts. severity of economic _ multiple fronts. severity of economic sanctions - multiple fronts. severity of economic sanctions and - multiple fronts. severity of i economic sanctions and other measures that have been taken are well beyond what i think many people anticipated and certainly

unprecedented. and they are having a dramatic impact already. we see the rouble going to the floor. we see russia's credit rating coming basically to zero, to junk status as we would call it. we see a stock market shut down and an exodus of virtually every reading company from russia. the virtually every reading company from russia. . ., , ., ~ ., russia. the sanctions marked a reversal of _ russia. the sanctions marked a reversal of the _ russia. the sanctions marked a reversal of the influx _ russia. the sanctions marked a reversal of the influx of - russia. the sanctions marked a reversal of the influx of foreign | reversal of the influx of foreign firms after the collapse of the soviet union. then, multinational businesses wanted to cash in on russia's 145 businesses wanted to cash in on russia's145 million consumers. that was famously captured in these scenes of the us giant mcdonald's opening its first restaurant in moscow 32 years ago. in this invasion has led many big companies to stop their operations in russia. everyone from retailers and manufacturers to banks and law firms. and now considering both the legal impact of sanctions and the

risk to the reputation of continuing business with russia. 0ne risk to the reputation of continuing business with russia. one of the most high—profile moves, though, has been cutting off at least seven leading russian banks and the global financial system called swift. that is crucial for moving money around the world. one estimate cited by the british parliament suggests swift accounts for $800 billion worth of transactions every year in russia. it is unclear how much of that will be curtailed by the sanctions. and energy remains a controversial and politically sensitive issue. russia earns billions of dollars selling oil and gas to europe and the rest of the world. the uk and the us has already said it will stop buying oil from russia and that could hurt. russia earned $119 billion from selling fossil fuels and most of that comes from europe with germany the number one customer. russia's oil and gas sales have helped the

russian government build reserves of $630 billion although a lot of that has now been frozen by sanctions on russia's central bank. president putin is not happy. as he explained when he met a group of flight attendants in moscow. the sanctions which are being _ attendants in moscow. the sanctions which are being imposed _ attendants in moscow. the sanctions which are being imposed are - attendants in moscow. the sanctions which are being imposed are akin - attendants in moscow. the sanctions which are being imposed are akin to | which are being imposed are akin to declaring a war but thank god it has not come to that yet. and i think that understanding what it is fort worth and what threat it brings for everybody is nevertheless present among our so—called partners. irrespective of their reckless statements.— irrespective of their reckless statements. . ., , ., ., ., , statements. sanctions have already been imposed _ statements. sanctions have already been imposed on _ statements. sanctions have already been imposed on mr— statements. sanctions have already been imposed on mr putin - statements. sanctions have already been imposed on mr putin himself. statements. sanctions have already i been imposed on mr putin himself and a growing number of individuals. mainly russian oligarchs. the billionaire businessmen who have close ties to putin. so let's turn to the sanctions imposed by president putin and his circle of oligarchs. my first guest is nigel kushner, the boss of the law firm

and is a sanctions lawyer. for 15 years he has advised companies and individuals about how to deal with the threatened impact of sanctions. thank you for being with us and talking business. have you ever seen sanctions imposed on such a way and to such an extent? i sanctions imposed on such a way and to such an extent?— to such an extent? i have never in m 15 to such an extent? i have never in my 15 years _ to such an extent? i have never in my 15 years seen _ to such an extent? i have never in my 15 years seen such _ to such an extent? i have never in my 15 years seen such a _ to such an extent? i have never in my 15 years seen such a ferocious | my 15 years seen such a ferocious meaningful set of sanctions being implemented. and the reason they are so meaningful is not only of the nature of the sanctions but because they have generally been implemented across the board in conjunction and presumably with a good working relationship between the eu, uk, us and on top of that, we have a lot of

other countries who don't usually jump other countries who don't usually jump andjumping in. in particular switzerland. and i think that, in itself, is very significant. home itself, is very significant. how significant _ itself, is very significant. how significant is _ itself, is very significant. how significant is it _ itself, is very significant. how significant is it that _ itself, is very significant. how significant is it that there - itself, is very significant. how significant is it that there is a combined effort because it strikes me that previously, when we have seen sanctions there are ways to they'd them, to get around them, there are ways to cope with them. it feels quite unusual that there is such a joined up approach. the feels quite unusual that there is such a joined up approach. such a “oined up approach. the big issue such a joined up approach. the big issue here is _ such a joined up approach. the big issue here is china. _ such a joined up approach. the big issue here is china. and _ such a joined up approach. the big issue here is china. and i- such a joined up approach. the big issue here is china. and i find - such a joined up approach. the big issue here is china. and i find it i issue here is china. and ifind it very interesting the position that china finds itself in because on the one hand, it will be rubbing its hands with glee. it is my view that the chinese will welcome any steps to reduce attendance in the us dollar and with russia being sanctioned they might have access

and they will have to find the rest of the international trade they have done. the chinese may ultimately prove to be a very happy recipient of the exports russia may not be able to export to the us or eu or elsewhere. and who knows, and it may end up with us anyway down the line and that is a week link in the jigsaw. the sanctions are ferocious in a variety and there certainly having a financial impact. {line in a variety and there certainly having a financial impact. one would think that trade _ having a financial impact. one would think that trade only _ having a financial impact. one would think that trade only with _ having a financial impact. one would think that trade only with china - think that trade only with china versus a huge part of europe, the united states, that trade is incomparable. russia needs to trade with the rest of the world. it

cannot survive on just trade with china, can it? i cannot survive on 'ust trade with cm. can in— cannot survive on 'ust trade with china, can it? i agree with that and when we are _ china, can it? i agree with that and when we are looking _ china, can it? i agree with that and when we are looking at _ china, can it? i agree with that and when we are looking at the - china, can it? i agree with that and when we are looking at the impact | china, can it? i agree with that and i when we are looking at the impact of sanctions and the first way they work is similar to the uk and the us persons can have dealings with specific targeted versions and there will be certain trade sanctions, for example, the us have prohibited the inputs of certain products from russian to the us but they go much further step and that is called secondary sanctions. and the usa to the rest of the world, certain people we don't like who we have sanctioned and our own people cannot deal with them. it is absolutely legitimate for everyone else, anywhere in the world to deal with these people we don't like very

much. and as long as they don't involve a us nexus, there is no dollars or us persons involved perfectly legitimate. but, and it is a big butt. we can choose to put you wherever you are in the world on the same list that have put the naughty russians we don't like. and that is the most powerful set of sanctions that i have ever seen. i the most powerful set of sanctions that i have ever seen.— the most powerful set of sanctions that i have ever seen. i wonder now, if ou are that i have ever seen. i wonder now, if you are a — that i have ever seen. i wonder now, if you are a russian _ that i have ever seen. i wonder now, if you are a russian oligarch - that i have ever seen. i wonder now, if you are a russian oligarch or- if you are a russian oligarch or businessman russian business, what will you be doing or thinking right now to make sure you can operate in some way. on one level it is simple. you can press a button and move your funds anywhere in the world until the second you are sanctioned. however, i rather suspect that they will not be able to find any bank

anywhere in the world where they would like those funds to be held to hold those funds. they will find a russian bank there able to transfer it. and they will not want to put funds into chinese bank. they will trust that they would feel like their money is safe. they can forget their money is safe. they can forget the eu, they can forget the us, they can forget the uk. whereas do you put your money if you have tens our millions of dollars. some have said they might use bitcoin. i am not overly familiar with the workings of bitcoin but even if you put your money in bitcoin, eventually you will want to take your money out. you're not going to keep it in bitcoin forever and to take it out of course you need a bank and bad

bank is going to ask you questions. we are so grateful for you inside. as well as targeting individuals while the wider sanctions have been imposed by western powers designed to cut off russia economically. 0ne to cut off russia economically. one of those advising the american government on its action strategy is paul, the senior policy adviser to the american commission on security and cooperation. it is great to have you with us. thank you for being on talking business this week. what has been so striking as far as the sanctions are concerned is just how joined up and coordinated the effort has been particularly in the west. talk to me about the behaviours.

this forum has provided the means by which this coordination is able to happen and again the coordination has proceeded apace with normally it seems the eu actually taking the lead although that was not the case on the recent energy sanctions. talk to me about what the intended outcome is. quite clearly to cripple the russian economy but this is very much targeted at individuals. this is about creating social and political unrest.— is about creating social and political unrest. is about creating social and olitical unrest. ~ , ., political unrest. when putin began is to build up _ political unrest. when putin began is to build up and _ political unrest. when putin began is to build up and was _ political unrest. when putin began is to build up and was threatening | is to build up and was threatening the invasion of ukraine the idea was deterrence and that was the attempt to find informatics solutions. that is out the window now. the time for diplomacy is over. putin has committed to what appears to be a genocide of the ukrainian people.

0liver statement so far seem to indicate that is the case. speaking about ukraine, denying its nationhood, denying its sovereign status, denying that the ukrainian people even exist. all of this has echoes of hit their speeches and actions in world war ii so it is really quite extraordinary. now the sanctions, the various levels of sanctions, the various levels of sanctions are no longer about deterrence, they are about crippling the russian military machine and the russian economy, about reducing the capacity of russia so that putin cannot realise these delusions. itruiheh cannot realise these delusions. when we look at the _ cannot realise these delusions. when we look at the way _ cannot realise these delusions. when we look at the way in _ cannot realise these delusions. when we look at the way in which _ cannot realise these delusions. when we look at the way in which the sanctions are having an effect we have been talking in this programme to about ways that some of those subjected sanctions may try to evade them. secondary sanctions is an important measure. talk about the us view on secondary sanctions thereby

sanctioning anyone who feels they can still deal with russia. secondary sanctions become less important when you are moving in such a coordinated fashion. the financial peace of this is devastating. it is really important to recognise the financial germany of the west. financially no one can hold a candle to the us dollar. even the euros is largely driven by the power of the dollar. global traders in dollars. china is the biggest user of the dollar in the world. so this notion that there are alternative systems and you can evade the sanctions, not coming to fruition. the sanctions and the reserves have been the most unprecedented sanctions. this collapse's entire ability to resist the sanctions as he was expected to do. this would allow him for years

to resist the sanctions. gone in an instant. because, of course, have to fit was held in euros and dollars and the rest is held largely in currencies that require the dollar. the one place for sanctions evasions thatis the one place for sanctions evasions that is important to highlight is the individualised oligarch sanctions. and you're going after individuals is becomes more complicated because these individual hold much of their wealth of anonymous shell companies and anonymous shell companies and anonymous trusts, real estate that is in the name of relatives underlying code just anonymous nominee owners, essentially. and that's a place who they have to work hard so congress was, for example, right now, is considering a 60 million appropriation to the new clientele capture task force at the department ofjustice which will pursue oligarchs, seize their assets and for them to the united states government and return them actually to ukrainians for the defence

repatriation rebuilding of ukraine. we are reading this and an international way. this is an international way. this is an international anti—oligarch initiative. there are still opportunities for russia to trade with china. how do we internationally put pressure on china to fall into line and is it possible to ask a country the size of the scale with the ambition that china has had to fall into line with the rest of world? you'll make the us government has said that, you know, if china helps at all to evade sanctions or undermine sanctions there will be further export controls in china and there will be, you know, retaliatory measures taken against china but that is not necessarily necessary. i think that china simply relies on the dollar system too much to violate the sanctions. i think china has bitten off a little bit more than it can to you. china is no longer so

supportive of this invasion and china is actually, in beijing there probably a little concerned about what putin is going through right now. this is actually to, looking at the response of the democratic world, looking at how progress has been halted so greatly for russia, how the ukrainians have fought back one has to think that china is really rethinking some of this closeness with russia. that is the question, isn't it, but picking a side. and we know that sanctions or trade wars can be damaging on both sides and i wonder therefore, you talk about retaliatory action from the us. if china was to evade some of the sanctions what would that look like? what would retaliatory action from the us look like in china? ~ ., ., ., , ., china? we would have to see what it would try to — china? we would have to see what it would try to engage _ china? we would have to see what it would try to engage in _ china? we would have to see what it would try to engage in first. - china? we would have to see what it would try to engage in first. this - would try to engage in first. this is the idea of building a alternative financial system, you

know, russia has, you know, rudimentary version of swift which is essentially the global bank communications network that can be used within russia so russian banks can speak with one another. 0riginally, russian banks had to talk to one another over swift, of course. but it does not appear that is the case. it does not appear that china really has the money through which they would evade the sanctions does not appear to be in existence, even. i have to wonder what measures they would engage in to do this but if they did do it i don't doubt that we would see, you know, heavier measures are measures like those that were taken on russia. russia subject to export controls which include all manner of technologies and these are the technologies of the future. and i would not be surprised at the same technologies

were then banned from china. it is ureat to were then banned from china. it is great to have _ were then banned from china. it is great to have your thoughts and really interesting to hear how all of this works. thank you being with us. thanks for sparing sometime this week. images and videos of the war in ukraine show a country under attack. homes, businesses and other key infrastructure like roads, railways and hospitals have been bombed. power stations are also a target. in several cities, electricity supplies have been cut off. as ukraine's power companies struggle to repair substations and power lines to keep the lights on. so how are they dealing with life under attack? i have been speaking to the chief executive of ukraine's largest private energy company. welcome to talking business. there is a lot for

you to be dealing with right now so we are grateful for your time and i want to festival if you can talk to me about some of the damage that has been inflicted on your power infrastructure and may be what the biggest challenges in keeping electricity supply running? 50 biggest challenges in keeping electricity supply running? so what we do is on — electricity supply running? so what we do is on a _ electricity supply running? so what we do is on a daily _ electricity supply running? so what we do is on a daily basis, _ electricity supply running? so what we do is on a daily basis, i - we do is on a daily basis, i emergency crews try to get access from the ukrainian military forces to decrease the supply end with power transmission lines. everyday we do it. ., ., ., power transmission lines. everyday wedoit. ., ., ., ., we do it. how long are you able to kee u- we do it. how long are you able to keep up that _ we do it. how long are you able to keep up that process _ we do it. how long are you able to keep up that process of— we do it. how long are you able to keep up that process of damage . we do it. how long are you able to l keep up that process of damage and repair. damage and repairand keep up that process of damage and repair. damage and repair and quite clearly your staff working round the clock to try and keep that power flowing but there must come a point when you don't have the equipment or the suppliers of the materials you need to be able to repair things

like this power lines of those this is our like this power lines of those try 3 is our responsibility and this is our contribution. this is what we are doing. providing all the materials and fuel and spare parts to our emergency crews. what we do is have a high level of centralisation and be providing supplies from other regional companies that we don't have military operations from abroad. so at this moment we, from carpet, get it already so that as long as we have access.— it already so that as long as we have access. ~ ., ., , ., _ , have access. what would you say is the most difficult _ have access. what would you say is the most difficult thing _ have access. what would you say is the most difficult thing for - have access. what would you say is the most difficult thing for you - have access. what would you say is the most difficult thing for you to i the most difficult thing for you to be dealing with now? is it simply that constant need to repair the infrastructure all, she touched on,

things like communication proves to be very difficult orjust getting around the country right now. iloathed be very difficult orjust getting around the country right now. what i can sa is around the country right now. what i can say is that _ around the country right now. what i can say is that ukraine _ around the country right now. what i can say is that ukraine and _ around the country right now. what i can say is that ukraine and the - can say is that ukraine and the ukrainian people and the ukrainian companies become stronger every day. we keep production of coal and gas at prewar level. what is critically important for the country. so i can see that we have coal and gas at the and we have fuel to produce electricity. the major problem for us, how to get the energy from our power stations to consumers and this is the most critical work of our emergency crews as they. but we have a high level of self—discipline and basically, it gives us a lot of strength and power.- basically, it gives us a lot of strength and power. some of that infrastructure _ strength and power. some of that infrastructure can _ strength and power. some of that infrastructure can be _ strength and power. some of that infrastructure can be rebuilt - strength and power. some of that

infrastructure can be rebuilt but i infrastructure can be rebuilt but when you talk about the russians targeting infrastructure, critical infrastructure, including those nuclear sites, infrastructure, including those nuclearsites, do infrastructure, including those nuclear sites, do you feel that you are able to protect your power stations or is it inevitable that they will come under attack at some stage? t they will come under attack at some sta . e? . ., , they will come under attack at some stare? , ., , . they will come under attack at some stare? , ., stage? i can be honest and open with ou. stage? i can be honest and open with you- without — stage? i can be honest and open with you. without no-fly _ stage? i can be honest and open with you. without no-fly zone, _ stage? i can be honest and open with you. without no-fly zone, above - stage? i can be honest and open with you. without no-fly zone, above a . you. without no—fly zone, above a power station, you. without no—fly zone, above a powerstation, nobody you. without no—fly zone, above a power station, nobody can guarantee that they are not attacked by russians. and this crime of attacking nuclear power stations i think the whole world, especially ukraine and europe should realise they can attack aircraft and missiles. if we don't have shelter above that is what we publicly request our partners from european countries is to provide equipment or provide a no—fly zone at least above

nuclear power stations. in green corridors. if you are not able to provide it for the whole country. we have talked about the risk of physical damage to some of those power generating facilities and some of your power stations. 0ne power generating facilities and some of your power stations. one of the other weapons in armoury, of course, for russia, is cyber warfare. and i wonder how prepared you are infrastructure is for cyber attacks which could come in a similar way, take those power networks off—line without having to inflict physical damage on the generating facilities. as you can imagine, we are having such a neighbour, and having such an experience for since 2014, we did all possible to be prepared for the current situation in terms of cyber security. so for the last three months we get several cyber attacks

to our power distribution company specifically. and we managed to defend. 0ursystems, our companies defend. our systems, our companies and defend. 0ursystems, our companies and i think we were quite strong in defending from cyber attacks from russians. and they would like to say thanks to our partners who supported us with different software and different equipment to be prepared for such cyber attacks. as for today, we feel strong.- for such cyber attacks. as for today, we feel strong. thank you for bein: with today, we feel strong. thank you for being with us- _ today, we feel strong. thank you for being with us. thank— today, we feel strong. thank you for being with us. thank you. _ today, we feel strong. thank you for being with us. thank you. thank - today, we feel strong. thank you for being with us. thank you. thank you very much. — being with us. thank you. thank you very much. ben- _ being with us. thank you. thank you very much, ben. you _ being with us. thank you. thank you very much, ben. you can _ being with us. thank you. thank you very much, ben. you can get - being with us. thank you. thank you very much, ben. you can get all- being with us. thank you. thank you very much, ben. you can get all the | very much, ben. you can get all the latest developments _ very much, ben. you can get all the latest developments on _ very much, ben. you can get all the latest developments on the - very much, ben. you can get all the latest developments on the war - very much, ben. you can get all the latest developments on the war in l latest developments on the war in ukraine on the bbc news website or you can download the app to your smartphone. in the meantime, you can keepin smartphone. in the meantime, you can keep in touch with me and the rest of the team. i am on twitter. thank you for watching. we will see you next week.

quite sunny across the south—west earlier on saturday but as we move to the afternoon interviewed in this area of low pressure approaching will mean a lot more cloud around and heavier rain and strengthening winds gusting up to 60 mph across the coast of devon cornwall so it is windy here at least into the early evening and the pressure is pushing into more persistent rain. that will head into wales, northern england western scotland by the end of the night. to the east, the shower is authentically and it will be fine. to the west we will see brighter skies. look out for that low pressure centre throwing some sharper showers particularly to the

afternoon into england and wales may be with hail and thunder. heavier showers for western scotland and northern ireland, too.

this is bbc news. welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. i'm ben brown. our top stories: russian strikes cause more damage near the ukrainian capital kyiv — as forces push into new areas across the country. ukraine's president remains defiant. 100% i am confident that we will win, there will be a victory, but 100% we don't really know when it happens. residents of the city of melitopol — which is under russian control — have reportedly come out to protest against the alleged abduction of the mayor by russian forces. ukraine says it hopes a number of humanitarian corridors from the besieged city of mariupol will open up — and accuses russia

of blocking supplies.