this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from brussels. i'm stephen sackur. every time you hear an eu leader condemn vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine, it's worth remembering one key fact, every day eu nations are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into putin coffers, thanks to europe's reliance on russian oil and gas.

my guest today is the eu commissioner for energy kadri simson. is europe ever going to go cold turkey on its addiction to russian fossilfuels? commissioner kadri simson, welcome to hardtalk. commissioner, would you accept that as we speak today, european union nations are still addicted to russian oil and gas? that's true that we are too dependent on imported russian fossil fuels. not only oil and gas but also coal and even nuclear fuel. and i called it an addiction, which implies dependency, that's fair, isn't it?

there is a profound dependency on russia's fossil fuels. i think that this is a very good moment to acknowledge that yes, we do have that, we have to do something to get rid of it. and we do have a plan. we do have a plan for this year to be better prepared for next heating season and how to get rid of this dependency. before we get to the plan, i just want you to tell me how it feels to be the commissioner for energy when you know that every single day, more than $270 million is being sent by eu nations to vladimir putin and his government, money which is paying for oil and gas, which is financing his war machine. and i know that every euro is too much. and that's why we have to find other alternatives.

since last autumn, i have been travelling around, meeting our counterparts who provide alternative gas and oil supplies to us. and i think that we have been well, relatively successful and we already witnessed during this winter that our partners send us record high volumes, that helped us replace some of russian gas. but the european union could have made one big decision, you could have decided to end all imports of russian oil and gas but you haven't, you didn't. why? well, so far since the beginning of the war we have introduced four sets of sanctions and they already have impacted russian economy. and of course, we are analysing what else we can do. but then on top of that,

we have to be ready for russian retaliation. of course, sometimes russian retaliation is not logical. so we do have a contingency plan in place to be ready that tomorrow they will cut off their gas supplies. but when eu leaders met in france just a few days ago, it was a decision they took not to ban imports of oil and gas and as a result, president zelensky of ukraine said you in europe are continuing to give money to a terrorist. a few days ago, when eu leaders met in versailles they decided to stop any financing in russian energy sector. that means that we will harm their means to earn revenues in the future. but commissioner, that's a very different point, that's about future investments, i'm talking about the day on day reliance

on russian oil and gas and the money that gives putin to continue with his war in ukraine. i come back to that figure, 275 million us dollars worth of us oil and gas per day. if you were to end that, that would collapse the russian economy. why don't you do it? well, because mainly, gas import is delivered by pipeline. it is impossible to replace these volumes with any alternative source. we do it in the nearfuture. and we do have three work stearms to do that. we do find alternative sources in the volumes available. then we will replace some of other consumption with renewables. so home—grown renewables will help us get rid of russian gas then we have to save. because during the heating season, we consume gas to heat our homes.

and that means that if we have houses that don't consume so much fossil fuels we can get rid of gas over some time. i want to hear more about your plan to get off oil and gas from russia in the long—term but continuing with the short term, i'm just wondering why anybody listening to this interview should believe that the european union is now committed to a change of policy when you saw the russian invasion of crimea in 2014, russian troops in the donbas in 2014. indeed, you saw russia put its troops under georgian territory in 2008. you've seen so many signals and yet the consumption of russian oil and gas has gone up, profoundly since 2010. if you look at the figures, it's up to 26% in the last decade.

so far from weaning yourselves off, as you saw what vladimir putin was doing, you actually embraced his oil and gas even more firmly. but we also prepared ourselves for being ready to replace russian fossil fuels with alternative sources. so compared to the last gas crisis that we had when last time russian gas flowed via ukraine was stopped. now we do have terminals in place. now we have interconnections that help neighbouring countries to provide gas by diverse flows. we even have mapped alternative routes for ukraine and moldova if they be cut out of russian gas. so these possibilities are in place, we know what it will cost to us. and we working here at the european commission, i am ready to deliver if leaders, it heads

of government will tell us. they'll give me money to do so. that's the point, isn't it? it comes down to what leaders tell you to do. and isn't it the truth that the leadership of the eu right now is deeply divided? because to go back to that versailles summit that you just refered to, we know that some countries, including poland, for example, did call for a complete ban on the importation of russian oil and gas and some other countries like germany refused to accept it, saying it would wreck their economy. there is now a deep division inside the eu. no, i'm absolutely impressed how much unity our member states are showing. however we manage well by unanimity, very important decisions for example, we were supporting ukraine in different ways and we were ready to

synchronise thier electricity grid by next year. and now by unanimity we are doing it as an emergency organisation. are you mean to tell me there are divisions in countries such as your own in estonia and poland and other eastern european countries that say the decision to move away from oil and gas from russia has come now and others like germany was saying no. germany who are saying no. "no way can our economy afford to come but we have to be much more careful and gradual." that is a division. four sets of sanctions. they do have a strong impact on russian economy but of course they still impact us to. and leaders have no doubt that it is necessary. so opening the borders to ukrainians who flee from putin aggression because their lives are under threat, all this shows extraordinary unity and... if i may... also the announcement that we will be ready to get rid of russian gas in very near future. much more than anybody expected. if you recall, looking at this from ukraine, the very near future

needs to be tomorrow. you're talking about the next seven years, which to a ukrainian who is suffering under constant bombardment today probably doesn't sound like the very near future at all. another thing, another aspect to this which i like to put to you. the swift financial transaction system, while the americans have tried to cut russia off completely from that system, the eu has not cut off sperbank or gazprombank from swift transactions. now those are banks which are crucial to europe's energy transactions. that suggests again europe isn't serious here. you always start with the sanctions in a way that it hurts your adversary in the hardest spot. the russian rouble is down while stock market is not operating very well, their economy has severe consequences so sanctions are working.

but isn't the point, commissioner, the sanctions sometimes going to be deeply hurtful to the people who impose them and you have to absorb that pain if you are serious about sanctions. but it looks from the european point of view that some countries are not really prepared to absorb that level of pain. well, our willingness to support ukraine is very strong. 0ur willingness to send clear message that putin by initiating this war against ukraine, actually it didn't do anything less than he also ruined his own countries future. and while sanctions are a way... an example, right now not up to years but right now that this is happening. germany is very open about its total reliance for right now, on russian oil

and gas and that isn't going to change anytime soon. it comes back to the question of credibility, when ursula von der leyen says that within seven years we will completely end our need for russian oil and gas, how can we take that seriously? well, the urgent need right now is to support ukraine so they will win this war. and that's what we are doing. i understand that, commissioner, which is precisely why this is so important. because if putin doesn't have this guaranteed income, which is so important to his war economy, then putin is going to be in one massive hole. but you, in the european union have to deliver on getting yourselves away from russia's oil and gas. again i ask you, this commitment that two thirds of

it will not be imported by the end of this year and it will be completely gone within seven years, how can you convince me that you have a worked out plan to make that happen? well, because the impact on the economy is not coming only from revenues from importing fossil fuels, the banking sector is down, four sets of sanctions have targeted different revenues and they will lose two thirds of revenues also from fossil fuels. this will not be something that european union will easily achieve. because indeed, last year for example, with natural gas, we imported 155 billion cubic metres of natural gas. and now travelling around, meeting these americans

qatari, egyptians we have mapped available volumes. 50 bcm, so one third. the rest of it we have to save within one year. so this will be a very big challenge for us in the european commission believe that we are up to task. yet the german climate and economy minister recently said if you want to hurt putin save energy, turn your thermostat down. is that what the eu is telling its citizens, to wean yourself off russian oil and gas all it takes is to turn the central heating down a little bit? well, it plays a role, it really plays a role because putting it into perspective again, 155 bcm russian gas annually and then to heat our homes we consume 90 bcm. of course, we will not stop heating our homes but saving a little bit really makes sense.

you talked about going to qatar and other places trying to get them to promise to deliver you more gas in the future, boris johnson the prime minister of great britain, he's been to saudi arabia trying to persuade them to sell more oil. the opposition in the uk said, "what and a begging bowl from one dictator to another dictatorship just trying to safeguard your fossil fuel resources." is that what the european union is going to do as well? well, yes, later today i will have a call also with our partners again. because of course we need to do our part to secure our supply. but what we've learned surely from this russian war is that putting a reliance and a dependence on authoritarian governments, whether they be in russia or elsewhere is not genuine

energy security. does it make sense to want to be more reliant on nondemocratic governments in the middle east for your fossil fuel? we have to be very alert not to create new dependencies but in the short term we need to replace some fossil fuels with other alternative supplies. of course in mid the solution is to replace some of the imports which are locally produced whether it's electricity or biogas or is it green hydrogen and we will prioritize very much green hydrogen projects which helps our industry to replace partially the consumption of gas. just a final thought on this energy question, if putin intensifies the bombardment of ukraine, if he goes even further, let's say for example, he pushes his forces right into kyiv.

can you, as energy commissioner foresee a time when you will have to revisit this? and you will have to, despite the pain it will mean to the people in europe, you will have to impose an immediate ban on the importation of russian oil and gas? well every week our leaders have a new set of sanctions so... please answer my question. i will not be surprised that if yesterday's fourth set of sanctions is not the last one. i am ready to deliver if i get the mandate to do so. and of course, there will be lost of worries regarding ukraine. we are monitoring what is happening with the nuclear power plants, how we can develop and keeps stable, how we can deliver them necessary fuel and jet fuel and generators. this is happening every day. you would never know... you never know what tomorrow brings. so you are not ruling out the possibility that the eu will have to impose a

ban on russian and gas imports? we are ready for any kind of scenario. we are absolutely ready. what would it take? zelensky already says you are essentially financing terror. what will it take, what more will have to happen before the eu would take that decision? well, then we have to see that current sanctions don't have impact. but on the contrary... but they haven't stopped his war machine thus far, have they? yes but well, they are very close to a default. their ratings are well... putting them into the junk sector. so i'm... if i am following what is happening with russian and russia's economy as well is we don't know what tomorrow will bring,

they might end up in default. some quick thoughts on the geopolitics of what is happening, you of course commissioner of energy, you're also a senior politician in your home country estonia. volodymyr zelensky has it seems, accepted that ukraine may not be a member of nato anytime soon, he may abandon his appeal for nato membership but he's clearly not going to abandon his bid to see ukraine join the european union. indeed, he asked the eu to fast—track to membership. do you as an estonia politician, do you think is it reasonable request? you always have to have long—term perspective even... he doesn't want this to be long—term, he wants us to be long—term, he wants this to be

now, that's why he wants a fast—track for to eu membership for ukraine. do you think is right and what that? if you are president of the country who is at war, you have right to do everything, i believe strongly so. i am not the one who can give him, grant him this fast—track but what i can do and what i'm really doing every day, i'm supporting them... well, in every means that are in my disposal. i understand that but i'm asking you now... i think first things first, they have to win this war. estonia clearly is on the front line, as a former part of the soviet space, one of those nations which we believe vladimir putin looks at and believes should never have been allowed to slip away from moscow's control. do you worry that estonia today is deeply vulnerable and that nato

might not protect your country? i think that all of us are deeply vulnerable until putin's around. there is no difference if you are in uk or estonia. this is a major threat to all the democratic countries. do you think a new iron curtain is coming down? you obviously, as a young person lived through the reality of the soviet union, you saw freedom come to your country, you saw your country embraced by nato and the european union. do you feel a do iron curtain is descending upon europe? well, i was never expecting that war would turn so close to my home. and i hope that this war will be victorious for ukrainians. and if they will win this war

there is no need for iron curtain. but there are questions for estonia as well as for ukraine, for estonia it is a question about whether you want in the future to have for example, permanent nato military bases on your territory. your government says that is precisely what they want. we know that but vladimir putin would guard that is yet another provocation. do you think it's wise for estonia to embrace permanent nato forces, missiles, troops on your territory? i think that under current circumstances it's necessary because it's sends clear message that putin is not in the position that he sets the rules. and from nato, the message has also been clear that they are a defence organisation but they represent every square centimetre of their territory. that gives states and nato states some kind of

feeling of protection but also feeling that they have to provide support to ukraine who doesn't have this kind of umbrella that protects to them compared to nato states. a final thought, which is about the eu and its internal debate. radek sikorski, a former polish foreign minister said what we must understand is that for 30 years nations in western europe patronised east europeans who said that russia fundamentally maintained a threat and should be regarded as a threat. and they were dismissed, these eastern european as western europeans as over nervous, oversensitive. judy finally that west

europe has come to an understanding ofjust how much of a threat remains in moscow? yes, they have. we do see how fundamentally for example, germany has changed the policy and decisions they've it's a clear testament that they have understood that they undermined the concerns of a neighbouring country towards putin and his regime. commissioner kadri simson, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. thank you.

hello there. the weather is really settling down. there's going to be a lot of dry weather, probably, for the next week or so. now, on thursday, we saw more cloud mainly across northern parts of the uk, giving us a few showers. but we're going to see less of this and more of this — blue skies over the next few days, very colourful picture there in the centre of london. now, this was the cloud that gave us the rain on wednesday. that's well out of the way. this cloud is not really reaching our shores, and the speckle cloud, the showers in the north in scotland are tending to fade away. so, with clear skies, light winds, it is going to be a chilly start to friday morning with some frost, particularly across scotland and northern ireland. maybe a few mist and fog patches across wales, the midlands, across the west country, too. these will lift in the morning, and then the sunshine comes out far and wide once again. the winds tending to freshen up a little bit in the afternoon,

but it's likely to be a warmer day than it was on thursday. temperatures of 13 degrees in the central belt of scotland and newcastle, and a high of 16 celsius in the southeast of england. the weather's quitening down because high pressure's building across the uk on friday. the centre of that strong highs going to be pushing to the east of our shores with quite a few isobars on the chart on saturday. it's going to be dry on saturday, but the winds will be quite a bit stronger — that'll be a noticeable change for all parts of the country. so, no frost around, probably no fog around on saturday morning, but there will be lots of sunshine during the day. the winds coming in from the east or southeast means that the highest temperatures will always be across more sheltered western areas. across some eastern parts of england, temperatures maybe no higher than 12 or 13 degrees. could make 16 along the coast of northwest england, but it's up towards the northwest highlands and perhaps even into the moray firth that temperatures could reach 17 or 18 degrees, and it could be the warmest day of the year so far.

as we move into sunday, there are going to be some changes. it's going to be colder for a start and a bit more cloud around, too. there'll still be some sunshine around on sunday, but more cloud, especially for some eastern parts of the uk. it could just be thick enough to give one or two light showers in east anglia and the southeast of england. the winds won't be as strong on sunday, but temperatures are going to be lower, struggling to make double figures around some of those eastern coasts. but let's end on a positive note, because early next week, it's going to get warmer.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines. explosion. pounded for weeks, kharkiv has been decimated by russian shelling, but ukrainian fighters are resisting. we have a special report from the frontline. they've tried to punch through here, again and again and again, and they've failed. the ukrainian armed forces are keeping them at bay. are we closer to a peace deal? russia's president puts forward his proposals to turkey.