you're watching bbc news. the headlines will follow at the top of the hour, after this programme. so, hello. there is usually three of us, aren't there, on the podcast on a thursday? and today, just me. because laura's been gallivanting around the middle east. and adam has covid, as you'll have heard if you are listening to newscast on bbc sounds yesterday. so, we have dr ellie cannon, gp, with us. hello. hi, there. to talk about covid. because, i guess, because of what has been happening in ukraine, it's not been making as much news as it otherwise might have done. i've got plenty of questions, but i can start from a question from adam, who has sent us a little video from his

self isolation at home. hello, doctor. when i got covid this week, i hardly had a cough, i didn't have a temperature and my sense of taste and smell stayed exactly the same. so, my question is, do you think the classic symptoms are still the classic symptoms? and could that be a problem if they're not? is covid changing? absolutely. that experience is just what i'm hearing in practice. people are not losing their sense of taste, their sense of smell. people are having mild upper respiratory tract symptoms, exactly as we just said. sore throat, in other words? yeah, basically. sore throat, runny nose, tiredness. very few people even having a temperature now. even the cough. i mean, i had covid two or three weeks ago myself. i don't really think i coughed. so, plenty to talk about. more from you in a few minutes. we are going to talk about covid, lots of other things to talk about as well.

welcome to newscast. newscast. — newscast from the bbc. yes, it's chris here, on my lonesome today with newscast. and we're going to talk more about covid with ellie in a second. so, not only is the pandemic not really in the news much now, but all of the things that we have been keeping an eye out for the last two years, or a lot of them, are not actually the symptoms any more. which is hugely significant in terms of people even asking themselves the question, have i got covid? well, we've had a fantastic vaccination programme and that really has de—risked it. we are also dealing with omicron. even this current little... well, not necessarily little, this wave we are seeing at the moment is ba—2, it is a type of omicron, and we know omicron, thankfully, is a mild variant. but if covid is booming again, maybe being a bit more

cautious is sensible? something i've seen so much in the last two years, working in general practice, is there is policy and there is individual behaviour. and, at the end of the day, if you are not taking the people with you and the mask mandates aren't strong enough for everybody to do it, or whatever the mandates are, there is no value in the policy. of course not. but is it not the case that the laws around covid, however irritating they may have been for lots of people, broadly speaking, people stuck to them. even if they just thought they were a good citizen and they should obey the law, even if they hated wearing a facemask. in that sense, laws did change behaviour, didn't they? law certainly did change behaviour. absolutely. policy did change behaviour. but there were absolutely certain sections of society where behaviour wasn't changed. so, i work with a very vulnerable, impoverished community. for example, testing was not particularly commonplace. it was clunky, it was annoying, people didn't want to

have to book a test. they didn't necessarily want their covid recorded. they didn't want to have to isolate from work, if they can't afford to isolate from work. so, the policy only goes so far to change behaviour. how long, then, do you think you're going to be seeing the consequences, in their many ways, of the pandemic? turning up in your surgery, or turning up on your virtual screen when you're talking to patients, whether it be other diseases that weren't diagnosed, mental health conditions as a result of the last two years? i would guess a decade, if not two. i look after refugees in my practice who are traumatised from experiences that they had in the 90s, in the 80s, and the effects of that trauma — it's a very different type of trauma — last for decades. and i think if you look at the public health of the nation after the second world war and after other big events like that, you see that it lasts.

in some of the illnesses that people will have developed as a result of restrictions, whether that is things like eating disorders or heart disease, cancer, obviously the physical ramifications of that are going to be lifelong. final thought, then. what is your health advice to patients now, as far as dealing with the covid threat, such as it is, in an environment where the regulations imposed from above are much more liberal than they were, but where there is a lot of it about, covid? i think you have to take an individualised approach. so, for example... what does that mean, though? what that means is i have had three vaccinations, i also had covid two weeks ago, so i am very unlikely now to get covid sitting here with you, or going home on public transport, so i can afford to be a little bit lax. i'm not seeing anybody at risk. but people who are at risk, who haven't had covid, who maybe aren't vaccinated, they do need to be more careful. is it a problem wearing masks in a shop or

on public transport? i don't really think so. i think that's a small price to pay. i wear a mask still everyday at work. all our patients do. so i think there are behaviours we can all take that really have very little impact on our life, compared to something like shutting schools or making children wear masks, which we can do to minimise our risks. thank you, ellie. nice to see you. you too. next we need to get an update on everything in ukraine, what's been happening over the last 2a hours or so. vitaly shevchenko, russia editor at bbc monitoring is here. you have been doing your daily thing, brilliant thing, on our sister podcast ukrainecast with gabriel and victoria. thanks for sparing some time for newscast. horrible event in the last 2a hours in mariupol, and this attack on the theatre. what do we actually know for certain about what has happened? all we know for sure is that there were people inside, and then that building blew up, exploded.

from this moment on, this point on, there are different versions. the ukrainians say that the theatre was attacked by russians. the russians say no, it was the ukrainians who actually blew the building up. now, to find out what is happening, a bit of history might help. the russian military, russian officials, have been applying this tactic for years in conflicts like syria, for example. where indications are that russian planes also targeted schools, bakeries, hospitals, and then said, actually, it wasn't a school or a bakery, it was a military base. however, many of those cases, and in the case of mariupol, we have not seen any evidence

to support claims that it was occupied by any militants. on the contrary, we've seen video clips posted online before the attack showing scores of people, maybe hundreds of people inside the building sheltering. and also images emerged, satellite images emerged after the attack, showing the words children in big, white letters. explicitly spelt out, so it could be visible from the air, that this was somewhere that should not reasonably be attacked? this is what residents of mariupol have been doing for weeks. i have also seen cars that they have been using to get out of mariupol with the words children in russian, taped onto the side of the cars, to let the military know that it is civilians, it's children. that didn't stop those cars from being attacked either, riddled with bullets,

windscreen smashed in, local officials say, despite promises of safe passage, that didn't happen. they were shelled on the way out of mariupol. vitaly, what is so difficult for you, journalistically, covering this, is that this isn't just an extraordinary and horrific news story for you to report on and reflect on, but a human one that is affecting your family. you have been sharing your family's story on ukrainecast. bring us up—to—date about your mum and your aunt? yes, we are from eastern ukraine, originally. my mother and her disabled sister were in an eastern city until this morning. because of my aunt's disability, we thought it is going to be all but impossible to evacuate them. but as the fighting got nearer, my mother said, look,

i can see and hear the fighting from my balcony. we need to do something about it. and we, thankfully, had been able to find a volunteer in an old, small ambulance, who evacuates disabled patients from the east and takes them all the way to the west. it's a very arduous and difficultjourney, but they had to take it. as we was preparing for that journey, i was on the phone to my mother last night. there was a feeling of us leaving our family home. this is where i grew up. and then the sirens went off, and it was very emotional. but that is something that really had to be done to save lives. and where are they now? they are outside... well, they are in central ukraine, basically. the latest i have heard is that they are preparing to find a place to stop, because there was a curfew. they can't move on.

and we are hoping that would be in lviv, in the very western part of ukraine, tomorrow morning. and from there, will they stay there or are they going to try to leave the country entirely? there is a hospital there that said they will be able to accommodate my aunt. but who knows what is going to happen to lviv. a ukrainian military base outside lviv was bombed by russians over the weekend. so, there is no area that is completely safe. but our objective at the moment is to get them to safety now. i just wonder, finally, how are you are and how you are coping? you are caught up, as i say, telling the story of your homeland, which is dominating your professional thoughts. it is also dominating your personal ones as well. how are you? surviving. — ican't say i'm well, even. but the thing that helps me cope is doing interviews like this, because watching

all this horror unfolding in your home country, in the village that you grew up in, you can'tjust watch all that and not want to do something about it. this is me trying to do something about it. telling the world what i know, because i have several perspectives on things as a professional, and also as a local. that is just my way of coping. we wish you the best, thank you, thanks for coming on newscast and well done with everything you're doing on ukrainecast, and best wishes to you and your family. thank you. our big conversation on the podcast today is with lord frost. welcome. great to be here, thank you. one of the big voices of the brexit conversation of the last few years. i guess, you know, alongside the prime minister, one of the most influential actors

in the whole process as far as the uk getting a brexit deal in the end. so much to talk to you about, we wanted to get you on the podcast for ages. take us back to when you were in government, invited into government, alongside borisjohnson, in the heart of the brexit process. you had something of a reputation, which may or may not be fair and you can address this if you like, of being something of a bruiser. the prime minister has his reputation about being something of a jovial and jokey figure and i'm imagining how you are with him behind the scenes in those moments and at those moments of huge jeopardy, when no one quite knew what was going to happen, whether brexit was going to happen? yeah, so, i think one of the big advantages we had was that the prime minister and i always agreed on brexit. always? on the big principle? on the big principle, and how we were going to do it. it was always clear and we almost didn't need to talk about it that much, because we both understood each other very well. we understood what the

principles we were trying to put in place were and we just sort of got on with it and that's how it worked. and we had to deal with the consequences of this unsatisfactory deal that had been put in place, so my memory of this whole period is just 18 months of extreme tension, pressure, trying to get things done, trying to deliver on what we knew needed to be done, which was respect the opinion of the people and get brexit done. how is brexit going? i think it's going well. we have created a form of brexit, hard brexit some people say, though i don't really like the term, which gives the country complete freedom as to what to do next. we are not in the customs union, we are not in the single market, we are now masters of our own destiny. we've got to make the changes to our regulatory set—up, to our competitiveness, to our productivity that's going to enable us to succeed. whilst we are talking brexit, my old mucker adam fleming who spent what felt like his

entire life at the time talking about brexit over in brussels when you were at the heart of government, not here on the podcast in the room because of having covid, but he has sent us a question, take a listen to this. hello, lord frost, haven't seen you in ages and i'm still not seeing you, but never mind. anyway, in your speech in zurich this week, you said there should be a new relationship between the uk and the eu on defence, security and foreign policy. ijust wondered, do you think the uk blew the chance to have that in the negotiations with michel barnier? because he was desperate for some kind of deal on foreign policy and security, and i seem to remember you guys just ruling that out totally from the start. lord frost? so the only thing that was on offer in 2020 that was in the eu's draft treaty was a sort of full dress treaty uk—eu summit substructure of that kind of thing, lots of bureaucracy, lots of process and we didn't think

that was the right thing. we thought something more open, capable of evolving was better, but, unfortunately, that wasn't on offer. i think now we've got to try and move on from some of the bitterness of the last couple of years. i hope we can and perhaps the ukraine thing reminds us of everything that we have in common. but i think we can only move on some things if the eu moves on other things. and i can imagine that we could look again at some of the foreign policy issues and maybe other things, if we could find a better settlement on the protocol and, at the moment, that doesn't seem to be on offer but perhaps the eu will change its mind in the months to come. you gave a speech the other night over in switzerland, at the university of zurich, talking about brexit but talking about lots of other things as well and we'll come onto plenty of other things in the next few minutes, and you talked about how it's important not to get mesmerised by the immediate problem in any scenario in life, not just necessarily

in politics. and you observed that many observers still cannot see beyond the immediate economic costs of brexit as opposed to the broader case for it, as you see it. how significant do you think those economic costs are right now and how soon will they go away? so there is a cost from leaving the customs union and single market. it's not as big as people have said. all the estimates of the cost of brexit economically have been proven to be wrong so far, all the disaster scenarios didn't come into play... but you acknowledge there's been problems? i don't acknowledge there's been problems, i acknowledge there is a cost from changing from one system, the eu system, to another. that is a problem, though, if it's your cost, isn't it? but i believe the medium term benefits will outweigh that and i think, if you look around the world, historically and now, the most successful countries are national democracies that are free to choose their own way forwards and i believe that's what we now have and i think the gains of that outweigh any

short—term difficulties that we might have. let's talk about the huge issue of our time, ukraine and russia and how the west responds. you said, i'm going back to your speech the other night in switzerland, if you're spending all your time worrying about climate change, you might have fewer resources left to deal with russia. is it an either—or? it's not entirely an either—or but the reality is that governments prioritise some things over others and i think my concern is that, over the last decade, maybe longer, this is not a party political point, western countries had got in the habit of seeing diplomacy as a kind of performance, worrying about global issues, worrying about appearing good on the world stage and not thinking about fundamentals like security, energy security, defence and thinking those sort of things wouldn't be problems in future. and, all of a sudden, they turned out to be problems. i think, to be fair to this

government, we've been warning about this for some time. but now we've got to pay the price of that and, unfortunately, luxury goods like... saving the planet? climate change the problem is possibly not the biggest immediate problem we face. the immediate problem is having an energy system that keeps the lights on and that people can afford. isn't it more, though, for a lot of people than feeling good, as you describe it, dealing with climate change? even though it might be a long—term problem, there are plenty of people and the overwhelming consensus amongst climate scientists is that this is a huge, albeit medium to longer term issue, with some short—term consequences that has to be addressed now. yes, so i don't disagree with that. i think it obviously makes sense to take the carbon out of the energy system if you can and to move to renewables if you can. the problem is that i think we are rushing at it, we are moving too fast

to renewables that can't supply power in the short run. i think you have to rely on gas and, after a short period, nuclear, when we can gear up to it. i don't think wind power can do the job in the short run, so i think, by rushing at it, we are producing a system that doesn't deliver security of supply and is getting more and more expensive for everyone and that's what's on everyone�*s mind at the moment. what i'm struck by, though, is your critique of emphasis within government but also some of your language around some of these issues. so a couple of months ago, you were tweeting about an article that allister heath had written in the telegraph in which he had used, and you used these words as well so i assume you broadly agree with them, talking about the neo—socialists, the green fanatics and the pro—woke crowd in downing street or in the broader government and that there needed to be something of a clear—out. i'm just wondering what you mean by those three labels? who are these people? well, i'm not going to sort

of name individuals and actually i didn't have particular individuals in mind when i mentioned it, when i tweeted it, but i do think there is a trend of high tax, high spend or not thinking about spending control, of rushing at climate change measures when the energy system isn't ready to do it and not always being as robust as we could be. and, you know, standing up for our own history and so on, that needs to change, i think. but who are the neo—socialists, the green fanatics and the pro—woke crowd? are they people in government, in ministerial office? or are they civil servants? who are they? i think i was getting more at a kind of climate of thought maybe than individuals. where, you know, we are not... we are taking the easy solutions too quickly, we are not thinking about how we control spending, we are just thinking we can just add to the spending burden. we are not thinking about whether we can hold down taxation, we are just allowing

it to go up. we are not thinking about how we have an energy system that keeps the lights on in the short run and i think all of this is a habit of easy times, when these things seemed possible and now we've had covid, we've got ukraine, everything looks a lot more difficult. we've just got to get serious about this now. is borisjohnson governing as a conservative? so... yes, i would say, up to a point. ithink, you know... you didn't say that with much conviction. the genius of the conservative party has been to bring together economic liberals, neoliberals if you like, free marketeers, with people who stand up for the country and what the country means, the values of freedom, standing up for things in the world. and he is spending big time and taxing big time. i think that's the problem,

i don't think it's necessarily what he wants to do, but i think, as i say, there is a habit of thought which means that we take the easy path the whole time and that doesn't lead you to a good place. has governing meant that he has sort of lost the knack of conservatives? i don't know, you seem to be implying almost that he's gone native within the system. i think the system puts a huge amount of pressure on people and there is a certain conventional wisdom within government, within the civil service, within politics, probably, which, you know, it has been about avoiding hard decisions in recent years. and it's always easiest to avoid hard decisions, but, sometimes, you've got to take them. what you mean by avoiding hard decisions? carry on spending rather than cutting? carry on spending. i think the tax burden is too high, it needs to come down, that needs to be used as a way of controlling spending.

we have been, as i say, too relaxed about having an energy system that produces security of supply... the thing is, though, borisjohnson is prime minister, isn't he? i mean, he could do something about this. is hejust being weak, then? i'm trying to understand, you are talking about this sort of capturing in the system, if you like? why isn't borisjohnson just gripping this and, as you would like to see it, being more conservative? so i think we had the pandemic for the last two years, that's been a huge distraction and, you know, i think we've reached the right point on handling covid now and, again, we are the freest country in many ways, but i think you do need a machinery that makes it work and i agree with those who say the current machinery of government is a bit dysfunctional, it doesn't always offer all the pros and cons in different circumstances. it doesn't offer necessarily all the choices and, when levers are pulled by the prime minister

or anybody else, they don't always connect to something. we've seen a lot of that over the last couple of years and we may well see some more of it, if we don't, you know, try and change that. not even reading between the lines, just listening to you, you sound like you think borisjohnson�*s lost his way. i don't think he's lost his way, i think the government is... has been risking drifting and not taking the difficult decisions. now, i think some of the things that have happened... risking drifting or drifting? i think risking drifting because, in the end, we came to the right point on covid. we've got the prospect of an energy security paper coming out which may get us back on the right track again. i've no idea what debate is going on internally on tax and spend but it certainly aliver than it was six months ago with the national insurance increase was agreed, i think and i hope that, you know, slowly slowly, the supertanker is turning

around a bit and we are getting closer to where supporters want us to be. should they get rid of the national i would thank you, nice to talk to you, thanks so much for coming on newscast. that's all from newscast for this week. adam and laura will hopefully be back alongside me next week and we will talk to you then and plenty more newscast, of course, on bbc sounds every day. newscast from the bbc. hello there. the weather is really settling down. there's going to be a lot of dry weather, probably, for the next week or so. now, on thursday, we saw more cloud mainly across northern parts of the uk, giving us a few showers. but we're going to see less of this and more of this — blue skies over the next few days, very colourful picture there in the centre of london. now, this was the cloud that gave us the rain on wednesday.

that's well out of the way. this cloud is not really reaching our shores, and the speckle cloud, the showers in the north of scotland are tending to fade away. so, with clear skies, light winds, it is going to be a chilly start to friday morning with some frost, particularly across scotland and northern ireland. maybe a few mist and fog patches across wales, the midlands, across the west country, too. these will lift in the morning, and then the sunshine comes out far and wide once again. the winds tending to freshen up a little bit in the afternoon, but it's likely to be a warmer day than it was on thursday. temperatures of 13 degrees in the central belt of scotland and newcastle, and a high of 16 celsius in the southeast of england. the weather's quitening down because high pressure�*s building across the uk on friday. the centre of that strong highs going to be pushing to the east of our shores with quite a few isobars on the chart on saturday. it's going to be dry on saturday, but the winds will be quite a bit stronger — that'll be a noticeable change for all parts of the country. so, no frost around,

probably no fog around on saturday morning, but there will be lots of sunshine during the day. the winds coming in from the east or southeast means that the highest temperatures will always be across more sheltered western areas. across some eastern parts of england, temperatures maybe no higher than 12 or 13 degrees. could make 16 along the coast of northwest england, but it's up towards the northwest highlands and perhaps even into the moray firth that temperatures could reach 17 or 18 degrees, and it could be the warmest day of the year so far. as we move into sunday, there are going to be some changes. it's going to be colder for a start and a bit more cloud around, too. there'll still be some sunshine around on sunday, but more cloud, especially for some eastern parts of the uk. it could just be thick enough to give one or two light showers in east anglia and the southeast of england. the winds won't be as strong on sunday, but temperatures are going to be lower, struggling to make double figures around some of those eastern coasts. but let's end on a positive note, because early next week, it's going to get warmer.

welcome to bbc news — i'm lewis vaughanjones. our top stories. pounded for weeks, kharkiv has been decimated by russian shelling, but ukrainian fighters are resisting. we have a special report from the frontline. they've tried to punch through here, again and again and again, and they've failed. the ukrainian armed forces are keeping them at bay. in the south — rescuers search for survivors — after a theatre is bombed with hundreds sheltering in the basement. are we closer to a peace deal? russia's president has put forward his proposals to turkey. do they leave or stay behind — the agonising decisions