this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk from brussels. i'm stephen sackur. every time you hear an eu leader condemn vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine, it's worth remembering one key fact, every day eu nations are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into putin coffers, thanks to europe's reliance on russian oil and gas. my guest today is the eu commissioner for energy kadri simson.

is europe ever going to go cold turkey on its addiction to russian fossilfuels? commissioner kadri simson, welcome to hardtalk. commissioner, would you accept that as we speak today, european union nations are still addicted to russian oil and gas? that's true that we are too dependent on imported russian fossil fuels. not only oil and gas but also coal and even nuclear fuel. and i called it an addiction, which implies dependency, that's fair, isn't it? there is a profound

dependency on russia's fossil fuels. i think that this is a very good moment to acknowledge that yes, we do have that, we have to do something to get rid of it. and we do have a plan. we do have a plan for this year to be better prepared for next heating season and how to get rid of this dependency. before we get to the plan, i just want you to tell me how it feels to be the commissioner for energy when you know that every single day, more than $270 million is being sent by eu nations to vladimir putin and his government, money which is paying for oil and gas, which is financing his war machine. and i know that every euro is too much. and that's why we have to find other alternatives. since last autumn, i have

been travelling around, meeting our counterparts who provide alternative gas and oil supplies to us. and i think that we have been well, relatively successful and we already witnessed during this winter that our partners send us record high volumes, that helped us replace some of russian gas. but the european union could have made one big decision, you could have decided to end all imports of russian oil and gas but you haven't, you didn't. why? well, so far since the beginning of the war we have introduced four sets of sanctions and they already have impacted russian economy. and of course, we are analysing what else we can do. but then on top of that, we have to be ready for russian

retaliation. of course, sometimes russian retaliation is not logical. so we do have a contingency plan in place to be ready that tomorrow they will cut off their gas supplies. but when eu leaders met in france just a few days ago, it was a decision they took not to ban imports of oil and gas and as a result, president zelensky of ukraine said you in europe are continuing to give money to a terrorist. a few days ago, when eu leaders met in versailles they decided to stop any financing in russian energy sector. that means that we will harm their means to earn revenues in the future. but commissioner, that's a very different point, that's about future investments, i'm talking about the day on day reliance on russian oil and gas and the money that gives putin to continue with his war in ukraine. i come back to that figure,

275 million us dollars worth of us oil and gas per day. if you were to end that, that would collapse the russian economy. why don't you do it? well, because mainly, gas import is delivered by pipeline. it is impossible to replace these volumes with any alternative source. we do it in the nearfuture. and we do have three work stearms to do that. we do find alternative sources in the volumes available. then we will replace some of other consumption with renewables. so home—grown renewables will help us get rid of russian gas then we have to save. because during the heating season, we consume gas to heat our homes.

and that means that if we have houses that don't consume so much fossil fuels we can get rid of gas over some time. i want to hear more about your plan to get off oil and gas from russia in the long—term but continuing with the short term, i'm just wondering why anybody listening to this interview should believe that the european union is now committed to a change of policy when you saw the russian invasion of crimea in 2014, russian troops in the donbas in 2014. indeed, you saw russia put its troops under georgian territory in 2008. you've seen so many signals and yet the consumption of russian oil and gas has gone up, profoundly since 2010. if you look at the figures, it's up to 26% in the last decade. so far from weaning yourselves off, as you

saw what vladimir putin was doing, you actually embraced his oil and gas even more firmly. but we also prepared ourselves for being ready to replace russian fossil fuels with alternative sources. so compared to the last gas crisis that we had when last time russian gas flowed via ukraine was stopped. now we do have terminals in place. now we have interconnections that help neighbouring countries to provide gas by diverse flows. we even have mapped alternative routes for ukraine and moldova if they be cut out of russian gas. so these possibilities are in place, we know what it will cost to us. and we working here at the european commission, i am ready to deliver if leaders, it heads of government will tell us. they'll give me money to do so. that's the point, isn't it?

it comes down to what leaders tell you to do. and isn't it the truth that the leadership of the eu right now is deeply divided? because to go back to that versailles summit that you just refered to, we know that some countries, including poland, for example, did call for a complete ban on the importation of russian oil and gas and some other countries like germany refused to accept it, saying it would wreck their economy. there is now a deep division inside the eu. no, i'm absolutely impressed how much unity our member states are showing. however we manage well by unanimity, very important decisions for example, we were supporting ukraine in different ways and we were ready to synchronise thier electricity grid by next year. decisions for example, we were supporting ukraine in different ways and we were ready to synchronise thier electricity grid by next year. and now by unanimity we are doing it as an emergency organisation. are you mean to tell me

there are divisions in countries such as your own in estonia and poland and other eastern european countries that say the decision to move away from oil and gas from russia has come now and others like germany who are saying no. "no way can our economy afford to come but we have to be much more careful and gradual." that is a division. four sets of sanctions. they do have a strong impact on russian economy but of course they still impact us to. and leaders have no doubt that it is necessary. so opening the borders to ukrainians who flee from putin aggression because their lives are under threat, all this shows extraordinary unity and... if i may... also the announcement that we will be ready to get rid of russian gas in very near future. much more than anybody expected. if you recall, looking at this from ukraine, the very near future

needs to be tomorrow. you're talking about the next seven years, which to a ukrainian who is suffering under constant bombardment today probably doesn't sound like the very near future at all. another thing, another aspect to this which i like to put to you. the swift financial transaction system, while the americans have tried to cut russia off completely from that system, the eu has not cut off sperbank or gazprombank from swift transactions. now those are banks which are crucial to europe's energy transactions. that suggests again europe isn't serious here. you always start with the sanctions in a way that it hurts your adversary in the hardest spot. the russian rouble is down while stock market is not operating very well, their economy has severe consequences so sanctions are working.

but isn't the point, commissioner, the sanctions sometimes going to be deeply hurtful to the people who impose them and you have to absorb that pain if you are serious about sanctions. but it looks from the european point of view that some countries are not really prepared to absorb that level of pain. well, our willingness to support ukraine is very strong. 0ur willingness to send clear message that putin by initiating this war against ukraine, actually it didn't do anything less than he also ruined his own countries future. and while sanctions are a way... an example, right now not up to years but right now that this is happening. germany is very open about its total reliance for right now, on russian oil and gas and that isn't going to

change anytime soon. it comes back to the question of credibility, when ursula von der leyen says that within seven years we will completely end our need for russian oil and gas, how can we take that seriously? well, the urgent need right now is to support ukraine so they will win this war. and that's what we are doing. i understand that, commissioner, which is precisely why this is so important. because if putin doesn't have this guaranteed income, which is so important to his war economy, then putin is going to be in one massive hole. but you, in the european union have to deliver on getting yourselves away from russia's oil and gas. again i ask you, this commitment that two thirds of it will not be imported by the

end of this year and it will be completely gone within seven years, how can you convince me that you have a worked out plan to make that happen? well, because the impact on the economy is not coming only from revenues from importing fossil fuels, the banking sector is down, four sets of sanctions have targeted different revenues and they will lose two thirds of revenues also from fossil fuels. this will not be something that european union will easily achieve. because indeed, last year for example, with natural gas, we imported 155 billion cubic metres of natural gas. and now travelling around, meeting these americans qatari, egyptians we have mapped available volumes. 50 bcm, so one third.

the rest of it we have to save within one year. so this will be a very big challenge for us in the european commission believe that we are up to task. yet the german climate and economy minister recently said if you want to hurt putin save energy, turn your thermostat down. is that what the eu is telling its citizens, to wean yourself off russian oil and gas all it takes is to turn the central heating down a little bit? well, it plays a role, it really plays a role because putting it into perspective again, 155 bcm russian gas annually and then to heat our homes we consume 90 bcm. of course, we will not stop heating our homes but saving a little bit really makes sense. you talked about going to qatar and

other places trying to get them to promise to deliver you more gas in the future, boris johnson the prime minister of great britain, he's been to saudi arabia trying to persuade them to sell more oil. the opposition in the uk said, "what a ridiculous policy to go with a cap in hand and a begging bowl from one dictator to another dictatorship just trying to safeguard your fossil fuel resources." is that what the european union is going to do as well? well, yes, later today i will have a call also with our partners again. because of course we need to do our part to secure our supply. but what we've learned surely from this russian war is that putting a reliance and a dependence on authoritarian governments, whether they be in russia or elsewhere is not genuine energy security.

does it make sense to want to be more reliant on nondemocratic governments in the middle east for your fossil fuel? we have to be very alert not to create new dependencies but in the short term we need to replace some fossil fuels with other alternative supplies. of course in mid the solution is to replace some of the imports which are locally produced whether it's electricity or biogas or is it green hydrogen and we will prioritize very much green hydrogen projects which helps our industry to replace partially the consumption of gas. just a final thought on this energy question, if putin intensifies the bombardment of ukraine, if he goes even further, let's say for example, he pushes his forces right into kyiv.

can you, as energy commissioner foresee a time when you will have to revisit this? and you will have to, despite the pain it will mean to the people in europe, you will have to impose an immediate ban on the importation of russian oil and gas? well every week our leaders have a new set of sanctions so... please answer my question. i will not be surprised that if yesterday's fourth set of sanctions is not the last one. i am ready to deliver if i get the mandate to do so. and of course, there will be lost of worries regarding ukraine. we are monitoring what is happening with the nuclear power plants, how we can develop and keeps stable, how we can deliver them necessary fuel and jet fuel and generators. this is happening every day. you would never know... you never know what tomorrow brings. so you are not ruling out the possibility that the eu will have to impose a ban on russian and gas imports?

we are ready for any kind of scenario. we are absolutely ready. what would it take? zelensky already says you are essentially financing terror. what will it take, what more will have to happen before the eu would take that decision? well, then we have to see that current sanctions don't have impact. but on the contrary... but they haven't stopped his war machine thus far, have they? yes but well, they are very close to a default. their ratings are well... putting them into the junk sector. so i'm... if i am following what is happening with russian and russia's economy as well is we don't know what tomorrow will bring, they might end up in default. some quick thoughts

on the geopolitics of what is happening, you of course commissioner of energy, you're also a senior politician in your home country estonia. volodymyr zelensky has it seems, accepted that ukraine may not be a member of nato anytime soon, he may abandon his appeal for nato membership but he's clearly not going to abandon his bid to see ukraine join the european union. indeed, he asked the eu to fast—track ukraine to membership. do you as an estonia politician, do you think is it reasonable request? you always have to have long—term perspective even... he doesn't want this to be long—term, he wants this to be now, that's why he wants a fast—track for to eu membership for ukraine. do you think is right and what that? if you are president of the country who is at war, you have right to do everything,

i believe strongly so. i am not the one who can give him, grant him this fast—track but what i can do and what i'm really doing every day, i'm supporting them... well, in every means that are in my disposal. i understand that but i'm asking you now... i think first things first, they have to win this war. estonia clearly is on the front line, as a former part of the soviet space, one of those nations which we believe vladimir putin looks at and believes should never have been allowed to slip away from moscow's control. do you worry that estonia today is deeply vulnerable and that nato might not protect your country? i think that all of us

are deeply vulnerable until putin's around. there is no difference if you are in uk or estonia. this is a major threat to all the democratic countries. do you think a new iron curtain is coming down? you obviously, as a young person lived through the reality of the soviet union, you saw freedom come to your country, you saw your country embraced by nato and the european union. do you feel a do iron curtain is descending upon europe? well, i was never expecting that war would turn so close to my home. and i hope that this war will be victorious for ukrainians. and if they will win this war there is no need for iron curtain. and if they will win this war there is no need for iron curtain.

but there are questions for estonia as well as for ukraine, for estonia it is a question about whether you want in the future to have for example, permanent nato military bases on your territory. your government says that is precisely what they want. we know that but vladimir putin would guard that is yet another provocation. do you think it's wise for estonia to embrace permanent nato forces, missiles, troops on your territory? i think that under current circumstances it's necessary because it's sends clear message that putin is not in the position that he sets the rules. and from nato, the message has also been clear that they are a defence organisation but they represent every square centimetre of their territory. that gives states and nato states some kind of feeling of protection but also feeling that

they have to provide support to ukraine who doesn't have this kind of umbrella that protects to them compared to nato states. a final thought, which is about the eu and its internal debate. radek sikorski, a former polish foreign minister said what we must understand is that for 30 years nations in western europe patronised east europeans who said that russia fundamentally maintained a threat and should be regarded as a threat. and they were dismissed, these eastern european as western europeans as over nervous, oversensitive. judy finally that west europe has come to an

—— do you think finally that west europe has come to an understanding ofjust how much of a threat remains in moscow? yes, they have. we do see how fundamentally for example, germany has changed the policy and decisions they've it's a clear testament that they have understood that they undermined the concerns of a neighbouring country towards putin and his regime. commissioner kadri simson, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. thank you.

hello there. temperatures on sunday weren't quite as high as saturday's, but still not bad. in the spring sunshine, we got to 15 degrees in porthmadog, north west wales. that was the warmest spot in the country. and looking at the weather over the next few days, more of that spring sunshine is on the way. it will become warmer. mostly dry, but there's just a few isolated showers to watch out for as the week goes by. high pressure, then, still dominating the picture. that stays to the east of us. this little curl of cloud is associated with a pool of cooler air, and that has showers within it. now, what happens over the next couple of days is that area of cool air pulls northwards, taking the showers away. and at the same time, we're then going to start to see temperatures rising significantly. high teens, even low 20s over the next couple of days. now, right now, there is a risk of seeing an odd showerjust brushing the eastern coast of england.

the cloud in northern ireland could also bring an odd spot of rain, but should keep the frost at bay. clear skies for most of scotland, england and wales will allow a widespread frost to take us into the first part of monday. temperatures at the lowest down to about —6 in aberdeenshire, where it's going to be a particularly cold start to the day in scotland. but a lovely start to the day for most of you, lots of sunshine around. a bit of patchy cloud extends in from the south—west as the day goes by. there's a small chance of a shower for eastern scotland, but for most of you, it's essentially a dry day. and we're going to start to see those temperatures rising across england and wales. highs here around 14—16 degrees. the cooler air still across scotland, northern ireland and the far north of england. now, for tuesday's forecast, there's still a risk of some frost to start the day across scotland in particular. a lovely day with lots of sunshine. there could just be one or two isolated showers popping up across central areas just for a short time, but still most of you will dodge those. we're looking at top

temperatures into the high teens, perhaps reaching 20 celsius in the warmest areas. and that would, of course, threaten the highest temperature that we've seen so far this year. wednesday, a similar day. again, plenty of sunshine across the board, but this time, if we do see some showers, they could affect the far north of scotland. but still, those temperatures will continue to rise. 17 in newcastle, 16 for glasgow. again, in parts of england and perhaps eastern wales, we could see temperatures into the high teens, perhaps 20 degrees or so. and this dry weather is going to last right the way through friday and into the weekend, although there's a tendency for it to turn a bit cloudier.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm mariko 0i. the headlines: ten million people have now fled their homes in ukraine since the start of the war — more than a quarter of the population. among them, children who escaped from besieged mariupol but they are left with life—changing injuries. all of these are victims of russian attacks. it is notjust the physical injuries. many of these children have deep psychological trauma that they will perhaps never get over. as a russian deadline looms for the defenders of mariupol to lay down their arms, the deputy prime minister says there'll be no surrender.