this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine united the eu in shock and outrage, but four weeks into the war, with ukrainian cities besieged and civilians suffering unimaginable horrors, cracks are already evident in the european response. how far should sanctions go? should ukraine be offered fast—track eu membership?

my guest is eu commissioner for financial stability and services, mairead mcguinness. solidarity with ukraine is one thing, but is the eu prepared to endure real pain to support kyiv? commissioner mairead mcguinness in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. nice to see you. it's a pleasure to have you on the show. solidarity with ukraine — that's the eu message. but, of course, for it to be meaningful, it has to involve deeds as well as words. on that front, do you think the eu is delivering? well, look, your intro said

"solidarity, outrage," but you neglected the word "action". the european union reacted immediately, and i'm sad to say, in a way, we were preparing for this, even though we hoped it wouldn't happen. so we already had a range of sanctions in preparation, and we've delivered on four different measures to sanction the russian oligarchs and indeed russian entities that are fuelling the war. and, of course, we're doing many other things on the humanitarian front. the member states closest to the border with ukraine have been incredible, because over 3.5 million people have crossed into those member states and everyone is being accommodated. we've also given access to both education, health, thejobs market, and we're trying to make sure that people are not lost track of. so we're making sure children are protected in all of this. so, we have acted and we have spoken, and i think you're right — deeds matter in all of this. and there is a sense of urgency. there's also a sense of shock. and i think it's shared by both the us, the uk, japan,

canada, and those allies that we are working with. so, i think we have been true to our word, but of course, there is always more to be done. what i would hope for, but indeed, this is something we watch very carefully and closely, is that this horrible war, this invasion, would come to an end, and that we could talk about rebuilding. because the people who have been displaced, and over six million people have been displaced internally in ukraine, plus those that have been moved outside of ukraine, mainly women and children and older people who are not able to fight this war, but they want to go back home. i think, in addition to all of this, we were coming out of the covid pandemic, and now we are faced with this greater problem. i think there is great global concern about what is happening and rightly so. yeah. you've laid out the scale of the challenge and in particular the humanitarian challenge, but, of course, you are the commissioner for financial services and stability, and you, in a sense, are the brussels enforcerfor sanctions. so i do want to focus just

a little bit on sanctions. are you disappointed that there appears to be a lack of transparency about what individual member states are doing in terms of moving against russian oligarchs' financial interests in their own states? i'm looking at a whole heap of data from germany, from austria, cyprus, malta, and they're actually not revealing what assets they're freezing. why is that? well, i wouldn't regard anything as disappointing. what i think is really encouraging is the unity of purpose amongst the 27 and a strong political commitment to implement our sanctions packages in full. you have to remember... commissioner, how do we know they're doing it, if so many of them are refusing to say what they're doing? if you allow me to answer, i will know because, as you called me, i am the enforcer. so already we're connecting with the national competent authorities, we're talking to central banks, we're talking to the business community. if anything, and i think this is really an important point, we're seeing industries that are not part of the sanctions regime at all being

very cautious and being very, if you like, careful not to engage with russia. so they're almost, if you like, taking action on their own strengths so that they don't prop up the russian war machine. so, our sanctions are one part. there's an added effect where people are saying, "we don't want to be part of something that is horrific, "where there's a war in a country that was peaceful "and has been invaded." so, let us wait and see. we are in the early stages. i mean, the point is, the ukrainians can't afford... we will have the information... you're saying, "i'm in touch with all these countries "and we're assessing what they're doing," but the ukrainian government's view is they can't afford to wait and see — they need real action now. and as i look at it, i don't wish to sound cynical, but countries like spain and italy, they've seized a few yachts, i grant you that. that's high—profile. it appears that they're taking

some action against oligarchs' yachts, but when it comes to the assets in financial institutions, it's much less clear. spain, for example, hasn't frozen any bank accounts. portugal has blocked only one account by a sanctioned individual, which had the grand total of 2a2 euros in it. the netherlands says that only i% of sanctioned individuals' bank accounts, trusts and other financial vehicles have so far been actually sanctioned. so what's going on? 0k, stephen, so that's your negative list. we will be making sure that all of our sanctions are fully implemented and the member states are fully committed to that. there will be quality information available and i'm coordinating all of this effort. you said a very key point — that ukraine cannot wait. i had a very good meeting with the minister of finance in ukraine, and they want us to do more and they are right. they are living in hell at the moment and their people are being slaughtered in the streets and their infrastructure destroyed.

so, their sense of urgency is our sense of urgency. the way we will do this is we will have a different list than the one that you're reading out now. i think you underplay, but that's yourjob, the effect and the intent of our work here. the financial institutions themselves do not want to be part of something which is, if you like, a pariah to the world at the moment. equally, i've warned accountants and solicitors and financial services advisers that they are part of these sanctions' reach. i go immediately from this studio to meet my counterpart in the us here in brussels, and we're talking about greater coordination. so, you're right to point out figures today, but the impact of our sanctions will be deep. already and significantly, the sanctioning of the central bank was a key part of our work, and that has been effective. well, commissioner, let me... you're making some very important points, commissioner. let me just stop you and then dig a bit deeper into you saying that the ukrainian message to you, through the finance minister, is that, you know, he's pleased with the action so far. i don't know if you heard president zelensky himself

two days ago say this — "our western partners have not "completed the sanctions on disconnecting the banking "system from swift. " that is the international transaction system. many banks that matter have not been disconnected, and that's particularly true in europe of those banks which handle the financial transactions which give payments to russia for oil and gas. why will you not ensure that swift transactions are blocked for all russian banks, including those banks which handle the energy transactions? well, i did say, just to correct you, that the minister of finance asked us to do more, and indeed i'm aware of the words of president zelensky. i listened very carefully to it, and you will understand, because it's been a very open comment, that the issue around energy is a particular point in europe. we are over—reliant on russian oil and gas. we plan to reduce significantly that dependency, and that takes time. but, of course, we've also said that everything

remains on the table. so, we started with one package of sanctions. we have four now in place. and there is an ongoing discussion about the energy question, because i accept fully your point that we continue to do business because we rely on energy. and the key here is, what impact would it have if we were to do exactly that, withdraw from purchasing energy from russia or, as you say, de—swift extra banks? we have to make sure that the sanctions impact russia and don't boomerang in a very negative way, notjust on the european economy, but it could have consequences globally. so i think we are taking the right approach, but i can fully understand and empathise with the comments of president zelensky... sorry, commissioner... crosstalk i want to be clear about what you're saying. are you saying that, yeah, you'll take measures, you'll impose sanctions, but only as long as they don't really hurt europeans? is that what you're saying? no, not at all. i think i was particular about energy. look, there will be pain...

but the energy�*s central to this. do you know how much, every single day, european...member states of the eu are paying to vladimir putin and his war machine? it amounts to something like... well, estimates vary, but something like $300 million per day, every day, going from the eu to vladimir putin's war machine. and i'm fully aware of that. remember that i am in the commission here, and we take our lead from the leaders and from the governments around the european union. i've said clearly that everything was on the table, and those issues around energy remain on the table. there are some member states who would like us to take immediate action, but the unity of the 27 is important. so i think it is fair for you to quote those figures. i fully accept that that is the case today and we need

in the european union to really accelerate the withdrawal from our overreliance on oil and gas from russia. and we need to do that by investing elsewhere in renewables, as many other of our allies need to do as well. so i would just say to you... but you talk about urgency. you said to me, "stephen, i totally understand "your point about urgency. "this matters every single day." as we speak... you know, commissioner, as well as i do, as we speak, the people left in towns like mariupol are suffering bombardment without food, without water, on the brink of starvation today. and you're telling me, "oh, well, you know, "we have to maintain unity in the european union. "this isn't something we're united on right now. "we'll keep discussing it." when are you going to make a decision that might help ukraine, by taking that decision to cut off oil and gas imports from russia ? when? i think you've been very dismissive of the actions we've taken, and i have not disagreed with your point around the money going to russia because we still buy energy.

there was a deep discussion on this last week. the leaders have discussed this, so i await to see what the decisions will come in time, potentially, around this. we have taken action on a number of fronts that you and i have discussed, including humanitarian, and i think there is an understanding that we are doing everything we can in europe and we may be called upon to do more. but to your point around pain, of course, this has to involve pain. we cannot do this without taking pain ourselves, but it is nothing compared to the pain that's happening in ukraine. and i think that's true of all countries, the us, the uk, but particularly those closest to the ukraine. so i would just say to you, too, i understand very well, and you speak with great strength, as i would if i were in your shoes here. i equally would push back and say, "yes, we're aware of this." it's why we want it to stop sooner rather than later. and indeed, this may happen in time. my hope is that there won't be a deeper escalation of the invasion in ukraine, where we would see worse happening, because, as you've rightly said,

people have lost their lives. there are people who are not getting water and food, humanitarian aid, although we are working to try and, with humanitarian organisations, get those supplies into the country. so we are doing a lot and, of course... does it worry you... ? yeah, it's not about sort of me or my feelings. but does it worry you when ukraine's foreign minister just four days ago said this — "what i have seen in the last "ten days in the european union" — and he was referring to the refusal to close ports to all russian vessels, he was referring to the lack of action on swift blocking for key russian banks, he was also, of course, referring to oil and gas imports — he said, "what i see is backsliding in the european union "back to a normality. "it cannot take strong and swift action, and "that is regrettable. " those are the words of the ukrainian foreign minister. well, i think if i were the ukrainian foreign minister, i might say exactly the same.

so, frankly, i have to accept and respect those views. and equally, i think the minister would accept that we have done a great deal, as we should. it's our duty to do this. it's not an obligation. and as i said, we may be called upon to do more, but the key is that we must ensure not so muchjust the unity of the eu 27, but equally that what we do will be effective and that we then can manage the situation both from an internal perspective but also to be a support to the ukraine... crosstalk commissioner, i don't wish to be rude, but i suppose the ukrainians really worry that you don't get it because, quite a few days ago now, you said, "our combined measures are having a significant impact." "the russian economy," you said — direct quote — "is in freefall." but is that really true? have you looked at what's happened to the rouble over recent days? actually, having plummeted, it actually started to strengthen again. the freefall that you talked about, frankly, isn't happening. yeah. well, there are movements

in the market, and you're right to quote me way back those days ago. and things are changing now, but that doesn't change the issue on the ground. we have an illegal invasion of an independent country. we're doing everything we can from a european point of view to support and address the immediate concerns and issues, and also sanctioning russia and the entities that are, if you like, fuelling this war, including your point around energy, which we've already debated quite significantly. and this isn't about me. this isn't about the european commission. this is about our member states doing everything we can collectively to do the right thing for ukraine. for example, in my conversations with the finance minister, we're very concerned about global food supplies. we're taking action here in the european union because fertilisers will not be available. the price has escalated. we know that ukraine is vital from a global food security point of view. we're helping ukrainian farmers on the ground. we're also trying to make sure that if the ports are blocked, we can get supplies through the rails out to the european union and to the wider world,

so there is an awful lot going on. it's always right to pick the area where we could do more, but please don't dismiss what is being done and don't dismiss the combined efforts of the uk, the us, canada, japan, australia, who are united in their abhorrence of what russia is doing in ukraine and our determination to do what we can for ukraine. one more point, then, on the eu and ukraine. president zelensky has made it quite clear that one of his priorities right now is to hearfrom the eu that the eu is prepared to fast—track ukraine into membership. he's already, it's clear, given ground on nato. he's now acknowledging that ukraine will not be a member of nato, but he is still determined that ukraine should have a european future, with regard to the european union. why is it that eu leaders are so reluctant to back zelensky�*s call for fast—track membership?

i think you generalise when you say they're so reluctant. i think there is an openness, and indeed an open arms, that ukraine is european in orientation and in hope. and it's quite interesting that ukraine wants to join the european union, and we believe they're part of the european family. one of the issues that we talk about in europe is that we work on the rule of law, so there's a process. in this case, we've been asked by the leaders here in the commission to look at that process and see what might happen here. but i think president zelensky fully understands our commitment to ukraine being european and at some point being part of the european union. and that's been conveyed notjust by me, but by other colleagues, including the president of the commission. but you can't click your fingers overnight and ukraine joins the european union, but we have been asked to look at this, so that is a process which we hope not to take too long to engage in, but we have given a direction. we've given, certainly, clarity that our view is that ukraine is part of the european family. right.

nobody�*s talking about clicking fingers, but it is a question of tone and messaging when president macron said, "we "want to send a strong signal to ukraine of solidarity." but at the same time, he added, "we must be vigilant. "it is not possible to open any accession procedure "with a country at war." do you think he got the tone right? well, i think that's honest. and, you know, i think that president macron has shown strong leadership in this area. he's president of the european council at the moment and, you know, has really been very strong in his support for ukraine, but he's very honest in his comments. and i think that's important, and all of our engagement has been very open with president zelensky and his team. and i suppose what i found really interesting is that this country has been attacked, it is invaded, russia is at war with it, and yet its government continues to function effectively. i was listening only in this call with the finance minister of its support package being rolled out to its farming community. it's concerned about the infrastructure that is being bombed now from russia.

so i would just say to your remarks around president macron, honesty�*s important between friends, and i think ukraine knows that europe is its friend. all right. we're running short of time. just some quickfire questions on other parts of your portfolio and the eu. energy and green issues are vitally important to the eu. you've got this sort of commitment to decarbonisation, to a green energy transition. ijust wonder, with the current sort of panic over energy supplies, given the europeans have pledged to wean themselves off russian oil and gas, what sense does it make — and this is something that you're involved in — what sense does it make to suddenly decide that gas—fired power plants are sustainable and to classify them as such going forward with the eu's green agenda? to environmentalists, that makes no sense whatsoever. i think you only gave part of the sentence. so, we've classified nuclear and gas as sustainable in transition. they have a particular part in our so—called taxonomy of sustainable

economic activities. and what we are doing... and i think it's more urgent than ever, and i hope people will see it from this perspective. in our delineation of these two energy sources, we say they are time—bound, so they help us in the transition, but we want investment in renewables. we will need investment in these areas, nuclear because it's low carbon and gas because it's a transition fuel. but we also will require that those, for example, gas plants will be adaptable to hydrogen in the future. isn't it much better that we channel private investment with those constraints rather than leaving it outside of our taxonomy with no constraints? well, here's what greenpeace say. greenpeace say that you're taking billions of euros away from renewables, sinking them into technologies that either do nothing to fight the climate crisis, like nuclear, or which actively make the problem worse, like fossil gas. what kind of sense does that make? well, i think, just to make this point very clear, and i've said it already, in our taxonomy, renewables have priority and that's

where the investment should go. but you can'tjust invest in renewables. it's interesting that in this country that i'm sitting in, in belgium, there is a discussion around extending the life of nuclear plants so we have energy security. and, of course, there are different views in member states. and, of course, environmental organisations strongly have a particular view. my responsibility is to make sure that if there is private investment in these energy sources, that it is restricted in terms of time and, equally, safety issues are fully addressed. so my view of this taxonomy, which has been somewhat controversial, is that now it is more urgent than ever that we see the value of it being in this particular segment of a taxonomy, so—called, and that we absolutely prioritise renewables. and i think that that is very clear, those who understand my work here. it is about making sure we have a sustainable economy and a sustainable society. we've been hit by a pandemic and now a war on european soil, and i think it has united the west, if you like,

the wider west. well, that's an interesting point... it also makes us realise our vulnerabilities. right, "uniting the west", you say. in this era of strategic challenge, what sense does it make to start picking new fights with the united kingdom post—brexit, as you appear to be intent on doing with your ruling on derivatives and financial clearing houses, which, after 2025, will no longer have access to the european union dealing in euros? why do you pick that sort of fight? i don't pick fights with anyone, but i think you have to realise what brexit meant. so, before brexit, the city of london, uk, part of the european union, really strong, big financial centre. after brexit, really big, strong financial centre. my responsibility... well, you're trying to undermine it, commissioner. oh, dear, i'm afraid you're listening to too many uk programmes because not at all. my priority is not the uk. my priority is the european union, so my priority is to make sure we have strong and stable infrastructure within the european union.

and this isn't, if you like, a fight, which you have put it in that context... it looks that way, cos if i may just briefly say that... it's all about equivalence, isn't it, finding equivalence in the systems, in other financial centres? now, it seems you found equivalence which allows access from canada, the united states, australia, hong kong, even brazil, but you're not finding equivalence after 2025 in the uk. why is that? you're not clarifying that it is around these ccps in particular that are a very important part of financial stability. and our view is that we need to look at this over time. we talk about open strategic autonomy, so europe wants to make sure that our financial system is stronger in the medium and long—term. we talk equivalence, so those ccps still operate with our blessing, if you like, up tojune 2025, but we're going to take action internally to strengthen ourselves. and i would rather put it the other way. this could be a win—win. what is wrong with a stronger european union on the financial

system side of things and financial services and a strong uk? i mean, this isn't, as you frame it, a battle. i mean, there are many things we can fight over, but it's not between the european union and the united kingdom on financial services. and i have a particular responsibility, as i stress, around the resilience of our financial system, and that's where my focus is. well, sadly, commissioner, we have to end there. but mairead mcguinness, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much. my pleasure. thank you. hello there. the weather has been turning

colder, and on tuesday, it was certainly cold enough for snow in the far north of the uk. that was the wintry—looking scene for a weather watcher in shetland. those colder conditions continue to sink southwards behind this weather front, the front bringing some outbreaks of rain, but with some sleet and snow mixing in, especially over high ground. and to the north of that weather front, a very cold start to wednesday. particularly in northern scotland, a widespread frost. further snow showers giving some accumulations in places and the risk of ice, but there will be some spells of sunshine to start off wednesday, whereas southern scotland will start off cloudy. a bit of sleet and snow in places, some patchy rain to start off in northern ireland, some wet weather in northern england, some snow mixing in up over the pennines, bit of rain into north wales and the north midlands. but to the south of that, a mainly dry start with some areas of low cloud, mist and fog, but equally some spells of sunshine.

now, our band of cloud, rain, sleet and snow will continue to push southwards, most of the snow over high ground, but we could see some to low levels. to the north of that, sunny spells and wintry showers. to the south, some spells of sunshine, but increasing amounts of cloud, the odd shower. still quite mild in the south at 12 degrees, but more widely, we're looking at top temperatures between 4 and 8 degrees. it will feel cold, particularly as the wind starts to pick up. now, through wednesday night, this band of rain, sleet and snow continues to move southwards. could be some wintry weather, especially over the hills in the south, but possibly even to low levels. and behind that band of rain, sleet and snow, a very cold and frosty start to thursday morning. there will be some icy stretches here and there. thursday, a day of sunny spells and wintry showers, the showers tending to push westwards as the day wears on. a keen north or northeasterly breeze just adding to a cold feel. top temperatures for many of us between 5 and 8 degrees. some spots in the west — maybe glasgow, plymouth — getting up into double digits. now, as we head towards the weekend, as this area

of high pressure sinks its way southwards, a subtle change. we lose the northerly winds. we pick up something of a westerly wind, bringing something just a little bit less cold. there won't be a heat wave, but temperatures will climb a little. a lot of dry weather, just one or two showers.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines. a glimmer of hope in ukraine — russia says it'll scale back military operations around the capital kyiv. the ministry of defence of the russian federation has taken the decision to drastically reduce combat operations in the kyiv and chernihiv areas in order to boost mutual trust. but the us is warning russia still has the capability to do great damage in ukraine. our other main stories. at least five people killed in a shooting in israel, the third such attack in the past week. after the parties, the fines.

police hand out punishments to uk government officials,