hello, i'm christian fraser. you're watching context on bbc news. "there's nothing very promising" — that's the kremlin�*s verdict on the latest round of peace talks between ukraine and russia. and so the war drags on. with more evidence today of the destruction, it's wreaking across the country, with civilians paying the heaviest price. nowhere is safe in ukraine. there are millions displaced internally and 4 million that have fled into neighbouring countries. most treat putin as the pariah he has now become, but the former us president donald trump thinks he could still be useful. in his latest televised interview, he has asked the russian president to "dig up dirt" on president biden. tonight with the context, the daily mail columnist sarah vine and amanda renteria, chief executive of code for america and former adviser to hillary clinton.

welcome to the programme. vladimir putin did not know how bad this war was going. he didn't know there were russians conscripts at the front. one of the achilles heels of autocracies, said antony blinken today, is that you don't have people in these systems who speak truth to power. the secretary of state was alluding to the information the generals had hidden from the russian president. american intelligence suggests it has caused a rupture in relations between the kremlin and the russian ministry of defence. since being reappraised on how bad it is going, the kremlin�*s tactics have shifted. the generals have been refocused on what they can win. the suggestion is that troops will be extracted from around the capital, kyiv, and the nearby city of chernihiv and repurposed,

probably somewhere in the east around the donbas. russian—backed separatists say they want the entirety of luhansk and donetsk. and in recent days, shelling in donetsk has ramped up considerably. and then there is mariupol further to the south, along the land brige the russians have been trying to establish between crimea, the donbas and the russian border. the latest satellite pictures supplied by maxar show a city almost entired destroyed. we have seen it before, in aleppo. somewhere amid all this, there are over 100,000 people who are trapped and sheltering from the hourly bombardment. i'm joined now by our correspondent anna foster, who is in lviv. the other myths and we were talking about last night quickly dissipated. a night that looked much like every other night. it

a night that looked much like every other ni . ht. a night that looked much like every other night-— other night. it did. 24 hours ago, there was — other night. it did. 24 hours ago, there was some _ other night. it did. 24 hours ago, there was some hope _ other night. it did. 24 hours ago, there was some hope around - other night. it did. 24 hours ago, l there was some hope around these talks. the russian and ukrainian delegations came out and the turks talked about how well things are gone, but then overnight, there was shelling around chernihiv when the governor coming in saying he had heard shelling and rocket attacks all night. there was a discussion of russian troops being moved away from kyiv as russia suggested by the ukrainians believe that is only thing to be able to rest and recuperate and move straight back in again to really tonight it looks the same as it did last night.- same as it did last night. there is no confidence _ same as it did last night. there is no confidence in _ same as it did last night. there is no confidence in washington - same as it did last night. there is no confidence in washington or. no confidence in washington or london in any russian assurances and if at the liaison committee today in london, borisjohnson simply need to mmp london, borisjohnson simply need to ramp up military supplies to the ukrainian forces and he was asked what sort of things they would need. but i guess in the end it was about volume. if you're going to take it to the russians and continue the offensive come of those weapons have

to comment in very big volumes. timer;r to comment in very big volumes. they do. when to comment in very big volumes. they do- when you — to comment in very big volumes. they do. when you look _ to comment in very big volumes. they do. when you look at _ to comment in very big volumes. tie: do. when you look at the size to comment in very big volumes. tt21: do. when you look at the size of this country and you look at the fronts that russia is fighting on, as you said before quite rightly, they said they will focus now on the donbas region in the east but also they have been fighting in the north and the south and even missile attacks here in the west in the city of lviv where i am on the weekend. to do that successfully, russian is volume and ukraine needs volume. at the moment we are seeing this real war of attrition in certain areas like mariupol which remains perceived by russian forces is because the war is stuck quite rightly. neitherside because the war is stuck quite rightly. neither side can really move forward and that is one of the problems that we have right now. share problems that we have right now. are ou problems that we have right now. are you seeing more activity around lviv did not? ~ ., , , did not? what is interesting here in lviv, i did not? what is interesting here in lviv. i been — did not? what is interesting here in lviv, i been out _ did not? what is interesting here in lviv, i been out in _ did not? what is interesting here in lviv, i been out in the _ did not? what is interesting here in lviv, i been out in the city - did not? what is interesting here in lviv, i been out in the city talking i lviv, i been out in the city talking to people tonight, the city is under

martial law some of this time after ten p:m., everybody have to be at home. you cannot buy alcohol in this place but when he taught people here, they really feel like they want to make some kind of push back against russia. now i metjust yesterday as i was telling you on the programme some men, ordinary men, businessmen who have taken up arms. they have been taught how to fight in case the war comes to their doorstep here butjust ordinary people living in lviv want to push back as well. and for them it might be something as simple as going out for a meal or going out during the day. it might be just living their lives normally and for them, that feels like their way of resisting this russian invasion.- feels like their way of resisting this russian invasion. anna foster in lviv on the _ this russian invasion. anna foster in lviv on the polish _ this russian invasion. anna foster in lviv on the polish border, - this russian invasion. anna fosterj in lviv on the polish border, thank you very much for that. joining us tonight the retired admiraljames gordon foggo, who served as commander of the united states naval forces in europe and africa. welcome to the programme. how to

characterise the russian troop movement we are sitting at the moment with matt what do you think new plan is?— moment with matt what do you think new [an is? . . ., . new plan is? thanks much or have me on the programme. _ new plan is? thanks much or have me on the programme. i— new plan is? thanks much or have me on the programme. i think _ new plan is? thanks much or have me on the programme. i think we - new plan is? thanks much or have me on the programme. i think we are - on the programme. i think we are into plan — on the programme. i think we are into plan b— on the programme. i think we are into plan b because plan a failed. and my— into plan b because plan a failed. and my old boss used to talk about this extensively. so plan b is a withdrawal to regroup. and i heard in the _ withdrawal to regroup. and i heard in the conversation with anna and as far as _ in the conversation with anna and as far as these peace negotiations go, i would _ far as these peace negotiations go, i would he — far as these peace negotiations go, i would be very careful about what the brits— i would be very careful about what the brits call mind the gap, the mismatch— the brits call mind the gap, the mismatch here. i think they are pulling — mismatch here. i think they are pulling back to regroup, recover, resunply— pulling back to regroup, recover, resupply and then who knows what happens _ resupply and then who knows what happens next. it has certainly been beaten _ happens next. it has certainly been beaten on — happens next. it has certainly been beaten on the battlefield in urban environment. logistics has failed. you mentioned the generals, putin is not happy— you mentioned the generals, putin is not happy with his defence minister who was— not happy with his defence minister who was apparently disappeared from the scene _ who was apparently disappeared from the scene and the chief of the staff

and chief_ the scene and the chief of the staff and chief of army are not held in high _ and chief of army are not held in high regards what is not good for the russian side. can high regards what is not good for the russian side.— high regards what is not good for the russian side. can we 'ust talk about the state * the russian side. can we 'ust talk about the state of h the russian side. can we 'ust talk about the state of play _ the russian side. can we 'ust talk about the state of play in_ the russian side. can we just talk about the state of play in the - the russian side. can we just talk. about the state of play in the east? i will bring the maps people can get a feel for it. so we look here at luhansk and an donetsk. the yellow bit is with ukrainian regulars are and they put up a good fight for the last several years and they have been trained by the americans in the brits. is there a danger there is a piece movement going on here. you can see that they are starting to push from luhansk and mariupol and it seems to me that with the russians are saint from moscow is they are trying to force a pincer movement and surround the best part of the ukrainian army that is there. absolutely. that conflict in the east _ absolutely. that conflict in the east as — absolutely. that conflict in the east as far as the ukrainians is concerned. _ east as far as the ukrainians is

concerned, they perform extraordinarily. this is been a frozen — extraordinarily. this is been a frozen conflict since 2014. they have _ frozen conflict since 2014. they have held — frozen conflict since 2014. they have held the russians and i expected the preponderance of force in the _ expected the preponderance of force in the beginning of the war that the russians— in the beginning of the war that the russians would move quickly through the donbas but they have not and they have — the donbas but they have not and they have been held fast. i believe you are _ they have been held fast. i believe you are right that this is a pincer movement— you are right that this is a pincer movement to try to divide ukraine and perhaps make a run to the south as welt we — and perhaps make a run to the south as well. we have not seen in previous— as well. we have not seen in previous action in 0desa yet but that would give them a land bridge on the _ that would give them a land bridge on the black seat and effectively cut off _ on the black seat and effectively cut off the two ports of mariupol which _ cut off the two ports of mariupol which they have virtually decimated and try— which they have virtually decimated and try to _ which they have virtually decimated and try to take 0desa as well so that will be a tough line and i don't — that will be a tough line and i don't see the russians doing that but like _ don't see the russians doing that but like i— don't see the russians doing that but like i say, what's the mismatch is he _ but like i say, what's the mismatch is he with— but like i say, what's the mismatch is he with a — but like i say, what's the mismatch is he with a can do in this period of time — is he with a can do in this period of time with— is he with a can do in this period of time with a rest and recuperate and come back fresh to fight another day. and come back fresh to fight another da . , ., , , , and come back fresh to fight another da. , , ., day. history tells us looking at chechn a day. history tells us looking at chechnya and _ day. history tells us looking at chechnya and syria _ day. history tells us looking at chechnya and syria this - day. history tells us looking at chechnya and syria this is - day. history tells us looking at| chechnya and syria this is been day. history tells us looking at - chechnya and syria this is been well practised before by the russians at

the moment you think they are retreating or there is a stalemate, they come again. retreating or there is a stalemate, they come again-— they come again. actually right. their conduct _ they come again. actually right. their conduct in _ they come again. actually right. their conduct in chechnya - they come again. actually right. their conduct in chechnya was l their conduct in chechnya was reprehensible. they do not believe in the _ reprehensible. they do not believe in the ethical conduct of warfare. we saw— in the ethical conduct of warfare. we saw that in aleppo and we saw chemical— we saw that in aleppo and we saw chemical weapons in aleppo and the waistcoat _ chemical weapons in aleppo and the waistcoat with the british game of the american scheme of the french reached _ the american scheme of the french reached out to punish the machine there _ reached out to punish the machine there but— reached out to punish the machine there but the russians who collaborated in those attacks stood try collaborated in those attacks stood by and _ collaborated in those attacks stood by and that was her principal. they may destroy it and then walk back into that _ may destroy it and then walk back into that may want very happy mariupol but i do not see the ukrainian _ mariupol but i do not see the ukrainian people tolerating that enable — ukrainian people tolerating that enable fight to the last person to defend _ enable fight to the last person to defend their capital and some of the other— defend their capital and some of the other regions that the russians have not yet been successful in.— not yet been successful in. admiral, sta with not yet been successful in. admiral, stay with us — not yet been successful in. admiral, stay with us if _ not yet been successful in. admiral, stay with us if you _ not yet been successful in. admiral, stay with us if you will _ not yet been successful in. admiral, stay with us if you will because - not yet been successful in. admiral, stay with us if you will because i - stay with us if you will because i want to bring in amanda on the issue

of where we go from here. boris johnson has a before the liaison committee in parliament today and was after question by a member about sanctions and how long sanctions should be there. have a listen. that should be there. have a listen. at what stage do you think that sanctions _ what stage do you think that sanctions could _ what stage do you think that sanctions could be _ what stage do you think that sanctions could be lifted - what stage do you think thatl sanctions could be lifted onto russia? does _ sanctions could be lifted onto russia? does it _ sanctions could be lifted onto russia? does it have - sanctions could be lifted onto russia? does it have to - sanctions could be lifted onto russia? does it have to be i sanctions could be lifted onto - russia? does it have to be ukraine holding _ russia? does it have to be ukraine holding the — russia? does it have to be ukraine holding the entirety— russia? does it have to be ukraine holding the entirety of— russia? does it have to be ukraine holding the entirety of crimea - russia? does it have to be ukraine holding the entirety of crimea or . holding the entirety of crimea or deliberation as— holding the entirety of crimea or deliberation as well of— holding the entirety of crimea or deliberation as well of the - holding the entirety of crimea or i deliberation as well of the occupied areas _ deliberation as well of the occupied areas of— deliberation as well of the occupied areas of georgia? _ deliberation as well of the occupied areas of georgia? what _ deliberation as well of the occupied areas of georgia? what is- deliberation as well of the occupied areas of georgia? what is the - deliberation as well of the occupied areas of georgia? what is the lie i areas of georgia? what is the lie that you — areas of georgia? what is the lie that you are _ areas of georgia? what is the lie that you are looking _ areas of georgia? what is the lie that you are looking about? - areas of georgia? what is the lie that you are looking about? [- that you are looking about? certainly don't think that that you are looking about?“ certainly don't think that you that you are looking about?|- certainly don't think that you could expect the g7 to lift sanctions simply because there is but a cease—fire. in ukraine. and again that go straight into putin's playbook. in my view we should continue to intensify sessions with a rolling programme until every

single one of his troops is out of ukraine. . ., single one of his troops is out of ukraine— as i single one of his troops is out of ukraine— as i i ukraine. including crimea? as i said, ukraine. including crimea? as i said. everything _ ukraine. including crimea? as i said, everything one _ ukraine. including crimea? as i said, everything one of - ukraine. including crimea? as i said, everything one of his - ukraine. including crimea? as i l said, everything one of his troops is out of ukraine.— is out of ukraine. interesting because in — is out of ukraine. interesting because in moscow - is out of ukraine. interesting because in moscow today, i is out of ukraine. interesting l because in moscow today, the spokesman for the kremlin has sent crimea will always be russian and it is written into our constitution. and borisjohnson is saying there will be knows ease up and sessions until every boot is off ukrainian soil. there is concern that a lot of and berlin my e sanctions in return for russian concessions so there is some politics to this. but that statement there would tell us that we are certainly in for the long haul. ., �* , �* we are certainly in for the long haul. . �*, ~ ,., ., haul. that's right. an important river this is _ haul. that's right. an important river this is a _ haul. that's right. an important river this is a negotiation. - haul. that's right. an important river this is a negotiation. so i haul. that's right. an important river this is a negotiation. so it | river this is a negotiation. so it is helpful— river this is a negotiation. so it is helpful to _ river this is a negotiation. so it is helpful to have _ river this is a negotiation. so it is helpful to have different - is helpful to have different perspectives, _ is helpful to have different perspectives, some - is helpful to have different. perspectives, some pushing a is helpful to have different - perspectives, some pushing a bit harder— perspectives, some pushing a bit harder and — perspectives, some pushing a bit harder and some _ perspectives, some pushing a bit harder and some say— perspectives, some pushing a bit harder and some say maybe - perspectives, some pushing a bit. harder and some say maybe there is perspectives, some pushing a bit- harder and some say maybe there is a place _ harder and some say maybe there is a place to— harder and some say maybe there is a place to have — harder and some say maybe there is a place to have a — harder and some say maybe there is a place to have a conversation - harder and some say maybe there is a place to have a conversation here, - place to have a conversation here, so when _ place to have a conversation here, so when i — place to have a conversation here, so when i hear— place to have a conversation here, so when i hear some _ place to have a conversation here, so when i hear some of— place to have a conversation here, so when i hear some of the - so when i hear some of the posturing. _ so when i hear some of the posturing, it is _ so when i hear some of the posturing, it is really- so when i hear some of the - posturing, it is really important to recognise — posturing, it is really important to

recognise that _ posturing, it is really important to recognise that this _ posturing, it is really important to recognise that this is _ posturing, it is really important to recognise that this is also - recognise that this is also posturing _ recognise that this is also posturing for— recognise that this is also posturing for what- recognise that this is also posturing for what is - recognise that this is also posturing for what is thel recognise that this is also - posturing for what is the final answer~ — posturing for what is the final answer~ i_ posturing for what is the final answer. i think— posturing for what is the final answer. i think what - posturing for what is the final answer. i think what you - posturing for what is the final answer. i think what you are i posturing for what is the final - answer. i think what you are seeing for folks— answer. i think what you are seeing for folks who — answer. i think what you are seeing for folks who are _ answer. i think what you are seeing for folks who are tuning _ answer. i think what you are seeing for folks who are tuning into - answer. i think what you are seeing for folks who are tuning into this, l for folks who are tuning into this, the crisis — for folks who are tuning into this, the crisis here, _ for folks who are tuning into this, the crisis here, everybody- for folks who are tuning into this, the crisis here, everybody wantsl for folks who are tuning into this, i the crisis here, everybody wants to have these — the crisis here, everybody wants to have these pictures _ the crisis here, everybody wants to have these pictures and _ the crisis here, everybody wants to have these pictures and everybody| have these pictures and everybody wants _ have these pictures and everybody wants to _ have these pictures and everybody wants to see — have these pictures and everybody wants to see this _ have these pictures and everybody wants to see this destruction - have these pictures and everybody wants to see this destruction and i have these pictures and everybody| wants to see this destruction and at the same _ wants to see this destruction and at the same time, _ wants to see this destruction and at the same time, no _ wants to see this destruction and at the same time, no one _ wants to see this destruction and at the same time, no one is— wants to see this destruction and at the same time, no one is willing . wants to see this destruction and at the same time, no one is willing to| the same time, no one is willing to -ive the same time, no one is willing to give into— the same time, no one is willing to give into bullies. _ the same time, no one is willing to give into bullies. no— the same time, no one is willing to give into bullies. no one _ the same time, no one is willing to give into bullies. no one is - the same time, no one is willing to give into bullies. no one is willingl give into bullies. no one is willing to really— give into bullies. no one is willing to really start _ give into bullies. no one is willing to really start to _ give into bullies. no one is willing to really start to come _ give into bullies. no one is willing to really start to come together. ij to really start to come together. i will also _ to really start to come together. i will also say — to really start to come together. i will also say there _ to really start to come together. i will also say there has _ to really start to come together. i will also say there has been a - to really start to come together. i. will also say there has been a tonne of trust _ will also say there has been a tonne of trust eroded _ will also say there has been a tonne of trust eroded in _ will also say there has been a tonne of trust eroded in this _ will also say there has been a tonne of trust eroded in this process. - will also say there has been a tonne of trust eroded in this process. thel of trust eroded in this process. the most _ of trust eroded in this process. the most recent— of trust eroded in this process. the most recent conversations - most recent conversations happening around when russia _ most recent conversations happening around when russia said _ most recent conversations happening around when russia said something i most recent conversations happeningl around when russia said something in the immediate — around when russia said something in the immediate reaction— around when russia said something in the immediate reaction is— around when russia said something in the immediate reaction is don't- the immediate reaction is don't believe — the immediate reaction is don't believe it _ the immediate reaction is don't believe it. and _ the immediate reaction is don't believe it. and unfortunately. the immediate reaction is don't- believe it. and unfortunately that's become _ believe it. and unfortunately that's become true — believe it. and unfortunately that's become true and _ believe it. and unfortunately that's become true and more _ believe it. and unfortunately that's become true and more true - believe it. and unfortunately that's become true and more true and . believe it. and unfortunately that's become true and more true and at| become true and more true and at the moment, _ become true and more true and at the moment, there — become true and more true and at the moment, there has _ become true and more true and at the moment, there has got _ become true and more true and at the moment, there has got to— become true and more true and at the moment, there has got to be - become true and more true and at the moment, there has got to be a - moment, there has got to be a timeline — moment, there has got to be a timeline here _ moment, there has got to be a timeline here where you - moment, there has got to be a timeline here where you can i moment, there has got to be a - timeline here where you can start to build the _ timeline here where you can start to build the trust — timeline here where you can start to build the trust to _ timeline here where you can start to build the trust to even _ timeline here where you can start to build the trust to even have - build the trust to even have productive _ build the trust to even have productive conversations i build the trust to even have productive conversations in| build the trust to even have . productive conversations in the meantime, _ productive conversations in the meantime, we _ productive conversations in the meantime, we are _ productive conversations in the meantime, we are going - productive conversations in the meantime, we are going to- productive conversations in the i meantime, we are going to hear a heck— meantime, we are going to hear a heck of a — meantime, we are going to hear a heck of a lot— meantime, we are going to hear a heck of a lot of posturing - heck of a lot of posturing while they— heck of a lot of posturing while they get — heck of a lot of posturing while they get to _ heck of a lot of posturing while they get to that _ heck of a lot of posturing while they get to that place - heck of a lot of posturing while they get to that place where i heck of a lot of posturing whilel they get to that place where we can have conversations _ they get to that place where we can have conversations again. - they get to that place where we can have conversations again. find - they get to that place where we can have conversations again.— have conversations again. and as it draus have conversations again. and as it drags on, soldiers _ have conversations again. and as it drags on, soldiers become - have conversations again. and as it drags on, soldiers become more i drags on, soldiers become more brutalised, they take less care with civilian areas and the concerns we are starting to see now and reports we are hearing from the front line

is that rape and sexual violence is being used as weapon of war. edi being used as weapon of war. of course being used as weapon of war. qt course we heard i being used as weapon of war. t>t course we heard i think monday in the times a heroin report of a young mother who had been raped by two soldiers in front of her four—year—old child. they killed the woman's husband and just sort of stormed in and then suggested hours and hours of attacks. and it's all so awfully printable and depressing. and that's why we must do our best refugee front because women and children are very vulnerable and i think at this stage because the russian soldiers are sort of a bit unhinged. we are hearing so many stories of them drinking, being very dissatisfied, they are conscripts, they don't really... theyjust... they are out of control. and that's a humanitarian disaster and then the

war crimes, there is no question. we know that rape is a war crime. the prime minister _ know that rape is a war crime. the prime minister was asked with this today and it has become a very big issue for the house of commons because you remember the for for secretary made it an issue and the british prime minister said they had sent a preventing sexual violence in conflict team to the region so they have people there documenting suitably what is going on. but as you say it is a war crime initially prosecuted as a war crime unless we do that, it continues to happen in conflicts all around the world. this alwa s conflicts all around the world. this always happens. — conflicts all around the world. “t't 3 always happens, for thousands of years, it's the way invading armies demoralise and humiliate the population that they are trying to subdue. and that's what they are giving to the ukrainians in the ukrainians are pretty tough, but we saw a lot of this in the second world war, history repeats itself. there were so many of these rates during world war ii and it's just

coming back around again. and i think that again what we have to be so proactive on the refugee front because actually at the end of the day, we cannot go in there and protect the people but we can give them refuge and at least get them amount of harm's way. ittrul’eiiii them refuge and at least get them amount of harm's way.— them refuge and at least get them amount of harm's way. well said. we will come back— amount of harm's way. well said. we will come back to _ amount of harm's way. well said. we will come back to that _ amount of harm's way. well said. we will come back to that in _ amount of harm's way. well said. we will come back to that in one - will come back to that in one second, before i let you go, admiral, iwant second, before i let you go, admiral, i want to ask you about this gearing up as the prime minister said today. what does giving up mean? what sort of things to the ukrainian army now need to take this on a pace?— to the ukrainian army now need to take this on a pace? great question and i'm take this on a pace? great question and m glad _ take this on a pace? great question and m glad the — take this on a pace? great question and i'm glad the prime _ take this on a pace? great question and i'm glad the prime minister- and i'm glad the prime minister said that. we had an opportunity in 2014 to as _ that. we had an opportunity in 2014 to as western power suits and we did not do that— to as western power suits and we did not do that so there is a lot of materiel, _ not do that so there is a lot of materiel, lethalamount not do that so there is a lot of materiel, lethal amount of material flowing _ materiel, lethal amount of material flowing in — materiel, lethal amount of material flowing in. but they are to be able

to defend — flowing in. but they are to be able to defend themselves and coastal defence. — to defend themselves and coastal defence, and the need of reliable communications sphere and some of that was— communications sphere and some of that was provided by elon musk. they need the _ that was provided by elon musk. they need the additional supplies which they are _ need the additional supplies which they are using it with great effectiveness for that to be resupplied and they also need to -ain resupplied and they also need to gain control of the skies will think this replacement aircraft or parts of the aircraft are necessary and his remark— of the aircraft are necessary and his remark about what the ukrainians have been_ his remark about what the ukrainians have been able to do to defend their nation _ have been able to do to defend their nation and — have been able to do to defend their nation. and they are naturally going to need _ nation. and they are naturally going to need ammunition because they are usin- to need ammunition because they are using a _ to need ammunition because they are using a lot _ to need ammunition because they are using a lot. as the russians withdraw, and may be opportunity to beef up _ withdraw, and may be opportunity to beef up though supply lines, get some _ beef up though supply lines, get some of— beef up though supply lines, get some of this equipment or larger equipment in there. i have said before — equipment in there. i have said before ukraine does not have the benefit _ before ukraine does not have the benefit of — before ukraine does not have the benefit of the same system that israel— benefit of the same system that israel has — benefit of the same system that israel has come of the iron dome system _ israel has come of the iron dome system that can shoot down incoming ballistic— system that can shoot down incoming ballistic missiles or rockets into their— ballistic missiles or rockets into their country and it is been a while a successful— their country and it is been a while a successful and israel. so we are playing _

a successful and israel. so we are playing a — a successful and israel. so we are playing a catch—up game here in the moral— playing a catch—up game here in the moral with _ playing a catch—up game here in the moral with material which provides you with _ moral with material which provides you with your successful they will be on _ you with your successful they will be on the — you with your successful they will be on the battlefield and the faster we will _ be on the battlefield and the faster we will get to a solution of this. interestinglyjohn carbonate said today the results of had no success in stopping supplies going into the country and clearly they are focused elsewhere. admiral, thank you very much indeed for your contributions and nice to see you.— and nice to see you. thank you for the opportunity- — and nice to see you. thank you for the opportunity. let's _ and nice to see you. thank you for the opportunity. let's turn - and nice to see you. thank you for the opportunity. let's turn back i and nice to see you. thank you for the opportunity. let's turn back toj the opportunity. let's turn back to the opportunity. let's turn back to the issue that _ the opportunity. let's turn back to the issue that sarah _ the opportunity. let's turn back to the issue that sarah writes - the opportunity. let's turn back to the issue that sarah writes about. the issue that sarah writes about refugees. now i want to talk a bit about the situation with refugees fleeing ukraine — the numbers are enormous. around 4 million have fled mostly to neighbouring countries. poland has taken in the majority — more than 2.3 million refugees are now in the country being given support by the government. romania, hungary and moldova have also taken in huge numbers. here in the uk, the homes for ukraine scheme has seen 2700 visas granted out of more than 28,000 applications. the government are clearly concerned that the bueurocracy is slowing the process. michael gove and priti patel are now chairing cobra—style daily meetings with lead operational officials to speed things up.

the process for ukrainians with an immediate or extended family member in the uk has been more fruitful. the family visa scheme has seen 22,800 visas granted out of 31,200 applications. in the us, joe biden has pledged to take 100,000 ukrainian refugees, but in the first two weeks of march, only seven visas were granted. let's speak to our washington reporter suzanne kianpour. that is not very good. seven in two weeks. why are they failing to bring ukrainians to the us? i weeks. why are they failing to bring ukrainians to the us?— weeks. why are they failing to bring ukrainians to the us? i spoke with a member of congress _ ukrainians to the us? i spoke with a member of congress who _ ukrainians to the us? i spoke with a member of congress who went - ukrainians to the us? i spoke with a member of congress who went on i ukrainians to the us? i spoke with a member of congress who went on a | member of congress who went on a trip recently— member of congress who went on a trip recently to _ member of congress who went on a trip recently to neighbouring - trip recently to neighbouring countries, _ trip recently to neighbouring countries, countries - trip recently to neighbouring - countries, countries neighbouring ukraine, — countries, countries neighbouring ukraine, and— countries, countries neighbouring ukraine, and she _ countries, countries neighbouring ukraine, and she returned - countries, countries neighbouring i ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm _ ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm on — ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm on the _ ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm on the need _ ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm on the need to— ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm on the need to do- ukraine, and she returned sounding the alarm on the need to do more i ukraine, and she returned soundingl the alarm on the need to do more to help refugees — the alarm on the need to do more to help refugees. that _

the alarm on the need to do more to help refugees. that complement- the alarm on the need to do more to i help refugees. that complement spoke to us here _ we had a broken immigration before we got to this point. we're really understaffed so a lot of our rules are antiquated. the backlog was already tremendous and unthinkable for the people who have been waiting. when you compare what a tiny country like moldova is doing, 300,000 have come to their borders, 100,000 are staying. and our quota is going to be 100,000, i mean it doesn t add up. so members of congress will have a chance _ so members of congress will have a chance to _ so members of congress will have a chance to bring _ so members of congress will have a chance to bring these _ so members of congress will have a chance to bring these grievances - so members of congress will have a chance to bring these grievances to| chance to bring these grievances to the secretary — chance to bring these grievances to the secretary of _ chance to bring these grievances to the secretary of homeland - chance to bring these grievances to the secretary of homeland securityl the secretary of homeland security today— the secretary of homeland security today who — the secretary of homeland security today who will _ the secretary of homeland security today who will give _ the secretary of homeland security today who will give members - the secretary of homeland security today who will give members a - today who will give members a briefing — today who will give members a briefing and _ today who will give members a briefing and they _ today who will give members a briefing and they will _ today who will give members a briefing and they will be - today who will give members a j briefing and they will be asking what _ briefing and they will be asking what more _ briefing and they will be asking what more can— briefing and they will be asking what more can they _ briefing and they will be asking what more can they do - briefing and they will be asking what more can they do to - briefing and they will be asking | what more can they do to make briefing and they will be asking - what more can they do to make the us brin- what more can they do to make the us bring in more — what more can they do to make the us bring in more than _ what more can they do to make the us bring in more thanjust_ what more can they do to make the us bring in more thanjust100,000 - bring in more thanjust100,000 refugees— bring in more thanjust100,000 refugees because _ bring in more thanjust100,000 refugees because the _ bring in more thanjust100,000| refugees because the councilman bring in more thanjust100,000 - refugees because the councilman told me anybody— refugees because the councilman told me anybody watching _ refugees because the councilman told me anybody watching television - refugees because the councilman told me anybody watching television in - me anybody watching television in america _ me anybody watching television in america is— me anybody watching television in america is wondering _ me anybody watching television in america is wondering why - me anybody watching television in america is wondering why is - me anybody watching television in i america is wondering why is america not doing _ america is wondering why is america not doing more — america is wondering why is america not doing more to _

america is wondering why is america not doing more to help. _ america is wondering why is america not doing more to help. tind- america is wondering why is america not doing more to help.— not doing more to help. and that is a ruestion not doing more to help. and that is a question we _ not doing more to help. and that is a question we are _ not doing more to help. and that is a question we are asking. - not doing more to help. and that is a question we are asking. thank. not doing more to help. and that is | a question we are asking. thank you very much for that. amanda, i worked out that 70 refugees every two weeks, he would take 500 years to reach joe weeks, he would take 500 years to reachjoe biden's targets of a need to step it up. we like to talk about context on this programme so i have looked at two memos that were circulated today by the senate republicans to all gop offices and they are saying that itjoe biden's border crisis is the worst in american history. they highlight record—breaking border crossings into america and they are going to make it front and centre in the midterm campaign. that is the context in whichjoe biden is now dealing. the trouble is that is mixing up a genuine refugee issue with a migration problem.- with a migration problem. exactly riaht with a migration problem. exactly ri . ht was with a migration problem. exactly right was at _ with a migration problem. exactly right was at this _ with a migration problem. exactly right was at this as _ with a migration problem. exactly right was at this as a _ with a migration problem. exactly right was at this as a political- right was at this as a political discussion always and has been even more _ discussion always and has been even more so _ discussion always and has been even more so since 2016 and will continue to be _ more so since 2016 and will continue to be and _ more so since 2016 and will continue to be and it — more so since 2016 and will continue to be and it is mixing, you are also

beginning to — to be and it is mixing, you are also beginning to seep in the democratic party some very early voices, loud voices— party some very early voices, loud voices say— party some very early voices, loud voices say why is ukraine any different from refugees who have been _ different from refugees who have been at _ different from refugees who have been at the border for some time now _ been at the border for some time now. sitting in housing there. in civil republicans like about the conversation is it speaks to their base _ conversation is it speaks to their base and — conversation is it speaks to their base and this is a conversation they like to— base and this is a conversation they like to have, — base and this is a conversation they like to have, but it also creates some _ like to have, but it also creates some dissension within the democratic party about how fast we should _ democratic party about how fast we should be _ democratic party about how fast we should be moving on this with the administration. the clear answer is really— administration. the clear answer is really what — administration. the clear answer is really what was said before which is our system — really what was said before which is our system is broken and now we are beginning _ our system is broken and now we are beginning to — our system is broken and now we are beginning to have to deal with but only volume but these different little _ only volume but these different little issues in different regions of the — little issues in different regions of the world. the little issues in different regions of the world.— little issues in different regions of the world. ,. , , ., ., of the world. the discussion we are havin: of the world. the discussion we are having here — of the world. the discussion we are having here is _ of the world. the discussion we are having here is or— of the world. the discussion we are having here is or the _ of the world. the discussion we are having here is or the question - of the world. the discussion we are having here is or the question we i having here is or the question we are asking is whether we should waive visas for traumatised families. the we need all the paperwork people who just need to get out of the region? it’s a paperwork people who 'ust need to get out of the region?_ get out of the region? it's a good ruestion get out of the region? it's a good question that _ get out of the region? it's a good question that the _ get out of the region? it's a good question that the conversation i get out of the region? it's a good| question that the conversation we had been — question that the conversation we had been having in the us for some period _ had been having in the us for some period of— had been having in the us for some period of time because many of our

refugees— period of time because many of our refugees at— period of time because many of our refugees at the border are coming from _ refugees at the border are coming from traumatised experiences in civil america etc and so this is not a different— civil america etc and so this is not a different or new conversation and what is _ a different or new conversation and what is happening in america it is we are having a conversation if there _ we are having a conversation if there be — we are having a conversation if there be a _ we are having a conversation if there be a fast—track for certain regions — there be a fast—track for certain regions in — there be a fast—track for certain regions in the world and if so why? and if— regions in the world and if so why? and if we _ regions in the world and if so why? and if we are, what is the fairness in that system was met so while you are fixing a — in that system was met so while you are fixing a broken system, you are fixing _ are fixing a broken system, you are fixing a broken system, you were having _ fixing a broken system, you were having these very important conversations about how you treat from _ conversations about how you treat from people in different regions and races _ from people in different regions and races around the world and that is what _ races around the world and that is what makes this such a political conversation and why you were seeing republicansjump into it and want to actually— republicansjump into it and want to actually create even more of a stir around _ actually create even more of a stir around it — actually create even more of a stir around it. ., ., around it. sarah he said it went to do more and we _ around it. sarah he said it went to do more and we are _ around it. sarah he said it went to do more and we are not _ around it. sarah he said it went to do more and we are not getting i around it. sarah he said it went to do more and we are not getting it| do more and we are not getting it right yet because there are not enough of them here. we had a rush on the programme last week you said that under the homes for ukraine scheme on the application, you have to put down which home you are going to. that seems ridiculous to me. how can they possibly know who they are

going to which family suitable for the equipment they have no idea but i think what is interesting about america is it's very distasteful... the republicans are trying to make capital out of this or that anyone should be try to make capital out of this. and donald trump today asking putin to release details of hunter biden positive leadership with moscow. this isjust because biden positive leadership with moscow. this is just because the americans are a bit further away that they don't quite see how it really a bad look this is for them. they look like... biden looks weak. harris does not seem to know what she is talking about. nancy pelosi is either drunk or i don't know half—asleep. and theyjust don't... america is weak in the context of this conflict, and that is really bad for ukraine and for the rest of the world because we need to see a

cogent, alert america they can help with this in the moment they should be making it worse at every turn. if you only take seven refugees, don't take any at all because quite honestly that's an insult. since you mentioned it. _ honestly that's an insult. since you mentioned it, i— honestly that's an insult. since you mentioned it, i have _ honestly that's an insult. since you mentioned it, i have the _ honestly that's an insult. since you mentioned it, i have the sound - honestly that's an insult. since you mentioned it, i have the sound of i mentioned it, i have the sound of donald trump talking in his latest television interview about the war and have a listen to what he said in the imitation he made to vladimir putin. ~ , ., ., the imitation he made to vladimir putin. , ., �*, putin. why did the mayor of moscow's wife... why did the mayor of moscow's wife gave the bidens, - both of them, $3.5 million? that is a lot of money. she gave him $3.5 million, so now i would think putinl would know the answer to that. i think we should know that answer. i would not have thought the russians need any encouragement to interfere in politics in the us as they have done plenty of that already. they have done plenty of that alread . , ., �* already. they don't need encouragement - already. they don't need encouragement as - already. they don't need encouragement as this l already. they don't need| encouragement as this is already. they don't need - encouragement as this is not already. they don't need _ encouragement as this is not about the russians but is about donald

trump _ the russians but is about donald trump and it is disgusting to see a former— trump and it is disgusting to see a former president capping a foreign enemy— former president capping a foreign enemy in — former president capping a foreign enemy in the middle of a war. and of the same _ enemy in the middle of a war. and of the same time there should be no surprise _ the same time there should be no surprise to— the same time there should be no surprise to american to remember him on the stage _ surprise to american to remember him on the stage injuly surprise to american to remember him on the stage in july 2016 asking russians— on the stage in july 2016 asking russians to intervene in the election _ russians to intervene in the election. and so the question here really— election. and so the question here really is _ election. and so the question here really is what our republican allies. — really is what our republican allies, what are publicans going to do about— allies, what are publicans going to do about this? are they going to continue — do about this? are they going to continue to empower at donald trump to have _ continue to empower at donald trump to have a _ continue to empower at donald trump to have a voice in the conversation or are _ to have a voice in the conversation or are they— to have a voice in the conversation or are they going to finally thought about— or are they going to finally thought about the — or are they going to finally thought about the fact that they are in a different place and he is in russia but in _ different place and he is in russia but in all— different place and he is in russia but in all kinds of other ways which meant _ but in all kinds of other ways which meant that— but in all kinds of other ways which meant that he has harmed democracy and that— meant that he has harmed democracy and that is— meant that he has harmed democracy and that is the real question right now especially at a time when there is a lot— now especially at a time when there is a lot more information coming out about— is a lot more information coming out about who _ is a lot more information coming out about who knew about january the 6th, who — about who knew about january the 6th, who was talking to donald trump, — 6th, who was talking to donald trump, while the conversations are missing _ trump, while the conversations are missing in — trump, while the conversations are missing in the transcripts, so this is much _ missing in the transcripts, so this is much more of a point for republicans to be taking a look at how will _ republicans to be taking a look at how will they give a voice to this person who is working with a foreign enemy or— person who is working with a foreign enemy or not. find person who is working with a foreign enemy or not-— enemy or not. and yet so many runners in — enemy or not. and yet so many runners in the _ enemy or not. and yet so many runners in the midterms - enemy or not. and yet so many runners in the midterms and i enemy or not. and yet so many. runners in the midterms and you enemy or not. and yet so many - runners in the midterms and you will see plenty of him in the midterm

campaign. do you stay with us, sarah and amanda are here and we will talk more about become half hour. hello, there. we have seen some snow across the north of the uk in showers. the snow that has come down has come down in big, chunky flakes like these, because often the temperature's just been above freezing, and that helps snowflakes kind of stick together to bring these fairly large flakes. the other thing is a lot of the snow has not been settling on the roads, butjust on grassy hills across the north of the country. however, overnight tonight, as temperatures drop and also we start to get some drier air moving in, increasingly we'll see more of the showers tend to snow for scotland and northern england, and probably towards the back of this weather front. you might even see a bit of snow for a time across wales, the midlands, and the hills of southern england, as well. it's going to be a cold night with a widespread frost and, of course, the combination of those showers and the frosty conditions will give us icy stretches.

first thing thursday morning, particularly but not exclusively across parts of scotland and northern england. now through thursday, it is a day of sunshine and showers. the showers will come through as sleet, still a bit of hill snow around, and with this more pronounced band of showers in kent, we could see a bit of snow there over the highest ground. east anglia and southeast england having strong gusts of wind throughout the day — that will make it feel cold, particularly given that temperatures are going to be lower than they've been today. we're looking at highs of 6 celsius in norwich, but for most of us, temperatures will be quite a few degrees below average for the time of year. now, heading through thursday night, showers continue to feed on that gusty wind, particularly across eastern areas. again, there's a risk of some icy stretches building up almost anywhere, really, as we have another widespread and sharp frost. well, that's the last of march. heading into april, april 1st — april fool's day — is friday. it's another day of sunshine and showers. now, the showers could be quite lengthy across the northwest of scotland, maybe a bit of hill snow mixed in with these,

and we've still got those fairly strong winds across east anglia and southeast england, although they will begin to calm down a little bit. it will be another cold day — temperatures between 6—10 celsius. now this weekend will continue with that rather showery theme. some of the showers quite heavy, might have a bit of hail, a bit of sleet mixed in with some of those, and temperatures still a little below par for the time of year. however, into next week, we've got milder air coming around an area of high pressure, and so temperatures will be rising next week.

hello, i'm christian fraser. you're watching context on bbc news. the white house says that president putin is having persistent tensions with his top generals. us intelligence sources say he feels misled by the russian military over the invasion of ukraine. in the uk — public satisfaction with the national health service is at its lowest level for 25 years. support forjamie wallis — the first british mp to come out as trans. and — a distant galaxy and — a spark of light in a galaxy far, far away — the hubble telescope picks out the most distant, single star yet imaged by a telescope. tonight with the context, the daily mail columnist sarah vine and amanda renteria, chief executive of code for america and former advisor to hillary clinton.

welcome back. we entrust the national health service with our care, often when we are at our most vulnerable, and in return said health secretary sajid javid today, we expect the highest standards. the shrewsbury and telford nhs trust fell well short of those standards that are set. a major report that has been released into the failings around the trust maternity care, found "catastrophic failings" over a period of twenty years. more than 200 babies and nine mothers who died might have survived had nhs staff taken their concerns more seriously. our social affairs correspondent michael buchanan has been speaking to hayley matthews — who lost her baby. hayley matthews was left in labourfor 36 hours. they should have listened to me from the beginning, you know, jack probably would have been here today. in what way?

i repeatedly asked for a caeserean and i was knocked back every chance. jack was born in a poor condition and died just 11 hours old. they literally said, we do not know why he has died and i said, is that it? you don't know why he has died? and then they said, we don't know what else to tell you and i was, like, i want a postmortem, because a baby doesn'tjust die. the issue here, sarah, is that time and time again in this trust, where in catastrophic things like this had happened, they blamed the mothers. yes, they did, and this whole thing comes— yes, they did, and this whole thing comes out— yes, they did, and this whole thing comes out of a culture of an absolutely not wanting to intervene medically _ absolutely not wanting to intervene medically in labour and, you know, in the _ medically in labour and, you know, in the report, — medically in labour and, you know, in the report, it is a huge factor,

the fact— in the report, it is a huge factor, the fact is— in the report, it is a huge factor, the fact is that the trust were determined that they were going to keep their rates of cesarean sections _ keep their rates of cesarean sections down, they were very proud that they— sections down, they were very proud that they had such a low rate of cesarean — that they had such a low rate of cesarean sections and they were determined, they were obsessed with this idea _ determined, they were obsessed with this idea of— determined, they were obsessed with this idea of every woman giving birth— this idea of every woman giving birth naturally and the truth is that not— birth naturally and the truth is that not every woman can do that, but they— that not every woman can do that, but they had this sort of dogmatic approach — but they had this sort of dogmatic approach and with 201 babies dying, and i approach and with 201 babies dying, and i think— approach and with 201 babies dying, and i think it is 94 have catastrophic, life—changing problems, neurological, there are stories— problems, neurological, there are stories of— problems, neurological, there are stories of one person falling over because — stories of one person falling over because they were pulling a pair of forceps— because they were pulling a pair of forceps so— because they were pulling a pair of forceps so hard, they lost their balance — forceps so hard, they lost their balance. babies skulls were being crushed, — balance. babies skulls were being crushed, it — balance. babies skulls were being crushed, it was an absolute... you hear— crushed, it was an absolute... you hear about— crushed, it was an absolute... you hear about it — crushed, it was an absolute... you hear about it and you think, how could _ hear about it and you think, how could this — hear about it and you think, how could this have been going on, why did no— could this have been going on, why did no one — could this have been going on, why did no one say anything and the truth _ did no one say anything and the truth is, — did no one say anything and the truth is, you know, ithink did no one say anything and the truth is, you know, i think when you have _ truth is, you know, i think when you have got— truth is, you know, i think when you have got one — truth is, you know, i think when you have got one of those cultures and everyone _ have got one of those cultures and everyone closes ranks, but the truth

is, at _ everyone closes ranks, but the truth is, at the _ everyone closes ranks, but the truth is, at the end of the day, all these people _ is, at the end of the day, all these people are — is, at the end of the day, all these people are dead, and what are they going _ people are dead, and what are they going to _ people are dead, and what are they going to do? you cannot retrieve any of it, _ going to do? you cannot retrieve any of it. it _ going to do? you cannot retrieve any of it. it is _ going to do? you cannot retrieve any of it. it isan— going to do? you cannot retrieve any of it, it is an absolute tragedy and it breaks — of it, it is an absolute tragedy and it breaks your heart. we of it, it is an absolute tragedy and it breaks your heart.— it breaks your heart. we sort of knew how _ it breaks your heart. we sort of knew how bad _ it breaks your heart. we sort of knew how bad it _ it breaks your heart. we sort of knew how bad it was, _ it breaks your heart. we sort of knew how bad it was, because l it breaks your heart. we sort of - knew how bad it was, because when jeremy hunt, the former health secretary ordered this review, the facts were staring us in the face and i am not sure we heard it was just as bad as this. do you think since this report was ordered, things have got better? do you have more confidence in maternity services? 1 more confidence in maternity services?— more confidence in maternity services? , ., services? i spoke to jeremy about this today and _ services? i spoke to jeremy about this today and he _ services? i spoke to jeremy about this today and he also, _ services? i spoke to jeremy about this today and he also, he - services? i spoke to jeremy about this today and he also, he is - services? i spoke to jeremy about| this today and he also, he is really upset _ this today and he also, he is really upset about it and has so much praise — upset about it and has so much praise for— upset about it and has so much praise for the families, because they— praise for the families, because they had — praise for the families, because they had to really push to have their— they had to really push to have their story is told and to have their— their story is told and to have their grievances listen to and imagine _ their grievances listen to and imagine if you have been through that and — imagine if you have been through that and have to go through it all again— that and have to go through it all again and — that and have to go through it all again and tellan that and have to go through it all again and tell an inquiry what happened to you. i think there was a

moment— happened to you. i think there was a moment in— happened to you. i think there was a moment in the early to thousands and mid-2000 _ moment in the early to thousands and mid—2000 where this cult of natural childbirth _ mid—2000 where this cult of natural childbirth got completely out of control— childbirth got completely out of control and there was this idea, when _ control and there was this idea, when i — control and there was this idea, when i was _ control and there was this idea, when i was having my children at that stage — when i was having my children at that stage and i remember going to antenatal— that stage and i remember going to antenatal classes and being told, you could — antenatal classes and being told, you could not have pain relief, because — you could not have pain relief, because that was a copout, and that the only— because that was a copout, and that the only way to have a baby was to have _ the only way to have a baby was to have a _ the only way to have a baby was to have a regina delivery and women who had cesarean is were made to feel like failures. we talk about medical intervention in childbirth, but the pendulum — intervention in childbirth, but the pendulum swung too far the other way and i pendulum swung too far the other way and i think— pendulum swung too far the other way and i think the mct must bear some responsibility for what happened, because _ responsibility for what happened, because i— responsibility for what happened, because i think they encourage this idea that _ because i think they encourage this idea that there was a right or wrong way to— idea that there was a right or wrong way to have — idea that there was a right or wrong way to have babies at that natural meant _ way to have babies at that natural meant and — way to have babies at that natural meant and anything else was

unnatural. i think it has changed a bit, unnatural. i think it has changed a bit. but _ unnatural. i think it has changed a bit. but i — unnatural. i think it has changed a bit. but i am — unnatural. i think it has changed a bit, but i am still not confident that if— bit, but i am still not confident that if you _ bit, but i am still not confident that if you are having a baby today you would — that if you are having a baby today you would not come up against the same _ you would not come up against the same obstacles. the same moral judgment — same obstacles. the same moral judgment of women, which is really wrong, _ judgment of women, which is really wrong, because everyone is different and everyone gives birth differently and everyone gives birth differently and that— and everyone gives birth differently and that should be allowed. i want to sta on and that should be allowed. i want to stay on the _ and that should be allowed. i want to stay on the issue _ and that should be allowed. i want to stay on the issue of _ and that should be allowed. i want to stay on the issue of the - and that should be allowed. i want to stay on the issue of the nhs, i to stay on the issue of the nhs, because that report into what went so tragically wrong in the nhs trust coincides with the news today that public satisfaction in the nhs has fallen to its lowest level for a decade. the long—running british attitudes survey suggests just 36% are happy with the way the health service is run — that's a 17% drop in the last two years. the lowest levels of satisfaction are for gps, dentists and a&e. amanda, let me bring you in on this discussion, sometimes you do not know what you have until you lose it and we have a universal care system

here at the point of delivery it is very, very different to your system, do you look at the nhs enviously or do you look at the nhs enviously or do you look at the nhs enviously or do you think you have a better? i do you think you have a better? i think systems today have a lot of work _ think systems today have a lot of work to _ think systems today have a lot of work to do. — think systems today have a lot of work to do. to _ think systems today have a lot of work to do, to use _ think systems today have a lot of work to do, to use data - think systems today have a lot of work to do, to use data and - work to do, to use data and technology— work to do, to use data and technology now _ work to do, to use data and technology now to - work to do, to use data and i technology now to understand work to do, to use data and - technology now to understand what is happening _ technology now to understand what is happening in— technology now to understand what is happening in real— technology now to understand what is happening in real time. _ technology now to understand what is happening in real time. the _ technology now to understand what is happening in real time. the idea - happening in realtime. the idea that governments— happening in realtime. the idea that governments over- happening in realtime. the idea that governments over the - happening in real time. the idea. that governments over the course happening in real time. the idea - that governments over the course of a number— that governments over the course of a number of— that governments over the course of a number of years— that governments over the course of a number of years and _ that governments over the course of a number of years and it _ that governments over the course of a number of years and it takes - a number of years and it takes another— a number of years and it takes another three _ a number of years and it takes another three or— a number of years and it takes another three or four- a number of years and it takes another three or four years - a number of years and it takes another three or four years toi a number of years and it takes i another three or four years to get those _ another three or four years to get those results. _ another three or four years to get those results, we _ another three or four years to get those results, we do _ another three or four years to get those results, we do not - another three or four years to get those results, we do not need - another three or four years to get those results, we do not need toi another three or four years to get. those results, we do not need to run government— those results, we do not need to run government systems _ those results, we do not need to run government systems like _ government systems like that any more _ government systems like that any more. we have the technology, i more. we have the technology, you have the _ more. we have the technology, you have the tools — more. we have the technology, you have the tools to _ more. we have the technology, you have the tools to actually— have the tools to actually do customer _ have the tools to actually do customer services _ have the tools to actually do customer services now, - have the tools to actually do customer services now, to l have the tools to actually do - customer services now, to understand what is _ customer services now, to understand what is happening _ customer services now, to understand what is happening and _ customer services now, to understand what is happening and whether- customer services now, to understand what is happening and whether you'rej what is happening and whether you're looking _ what is happening and whether you're looking at— what is happening and whether you're looking at systems _ what is happening and whether you're looking at systems in _ what is happening and whether you're looking at systems in the _ what is happening and whether you're looking at systems in the uk - what is happening and whether you're looking at systems in the uk or- looking at systems in the uk or systems— looking at systems in the uk or systems in— looking at systems in the uk or systems in america, _ looking at systems in the uk or systems in america, we - looking at systems in the uk or systems in america, we do - looking at systems in the uk or systems in america, we do not| looking at systems in the uk or. systems in america, we do not do that nearly— systems in america, we do not do that nearly enough, _ systems in america, we do not do that nearly enough, especially - systems in america, we do not do i that nearly enough, especially when we know _ that nearly enough, especially when we know policies _ that nearly enough, especially when we know policies and _ that nearly enough, especially when we know policies and institutions i we know policies and institutions were _ we know policies and institutions were built — we know policies and institutions were built with _ we know policies and institutions were built with certain _ we know policies and institutions were built with certain voices - we know policies and institutionsj were built with certain voices left out. were built with certain voices left out there — were built with certain voices left out there is _ were built with certain voices left out. there is no _ were built with certain voices left out. there is no doubt _ were built with certain voices left out. there is no doubt that- were built with certain voices left out. there is no doubt that when| were built with certain voices left - out. there is no doubt that when you io out. there is no doubt that when you go through— out. there is no doubt that when you go through the — out. there is no doubt that when you go through the process _ out. there is no doubt that when you go through the process of _ out. there is no doubt that when you go through the process of childbirthi go through the process of childbirth in whatever— go through the process of childbirth in whatever country, _ go through the process of childbirth in whatever country, that _ go through the process of childbirth in whatever country, that it - go through the process of childbirth in whatever country, that it was - go through the process of childbirth in whatever country, that it was notj in whatever country, that it was not quite _ in whatever country, that it was not quite built— in whatever country, that it was not quite built with _ in whatever country, that it was not quite built with women _ in whatever country, that it was not quite built with women in _ in whatever country, that it was not quite built with women in mind, - in whatever country, that it was not. quite built with women in mind, they were not— quite built with women in mind, they were not necessarily— quite built with women in mind, they were not necessarily writing - quite built with women in mind, they

were not necessarily writing the - were not necessarily writing the policies — were not necessarily writing the policies and _ were not necessarily writing the policies and it _ were not necessarily writing the policies and it is _ were not necessarily writing the policies and it is easy _ were not necessarily writing the policies and it is easy to - were not necessarily writing the policies and it is easy to see - were not necessarily writing thel policies and it is easy to see that in day— policies and it is easy to see that in day one — policies and it is easy to see that in day one when— policies and it is easy to see that in day one when you _ policies and it is easy to see that in day one when you start - policies and it is easy to see that in day one when you start to - policies and it is easy to see that - in day one when you start to go down the process— in day one when you start to go down the process and — in day one when you start to go down the process and one _ in day one when you start to go down the process and one easy— in day one when you start to go down the process and one easy way- in day one when you start to go down the process and one easy way to - the process and one easy way to start _ the process and one easy way to start fixing — the process and one easy way to start fixing that _ the process and one easy way to start fixing that in _ the process and one easy way to start fixing that in this _ the process and one easy way to start fixing that in this time - the process and one easy way to i start fixing that in this time where we can— start fixing that in this time where we can use — start fixing that in this time where we can use technology— start fixing that in this time where we can use technology is - start fixing that in this time where we can use technology is let - start fixing that in this time where we can use technology is let us i we can use technology is let us start _ we can use technology is let us start to — we can use technology is let us start to build _ we can use technology is let us start to build the _ we can use technology is let us start to build the mechanismsl we can use technology is let us - start to build the mechanisms where you are _ start to build the mechanisms where you are hearing _ start to build the mechanisms where you are hearing those _ start to build the mechanisms where you are hearing those voices - start to build the mechanisms where you are hearing those voices and - start to build the mechanisms wherej you are hearing those voices and you can see _ you are hearing those voices and you can see the — you are hearing those voices and you can see the data _ you are hearing those voices and you can see the data in— you are hearing those voices and you can see the data in real— you are hearing those voices and you can see the data in real time - you are hearing those voices and you can see the data in real time to- can see the data in real time to understand _ can see the data in real time to understand the _ can see the data in real time to understand the implications - can see the data in real time to understand the implications ofl understand the implications of medical— understand the implications of medical decisions— understand the implications of medical decisions that - understand the implications of medical decisions that people i understand the implications of. medical decisions that people are making _ medical decisions that people are making that — medical decisions that people are making that are _ medical decisions that people are making that are harming - medical decisions that people are making that are harming the - medical decisions that people are j making that are harming the lives medical decisions that people are i making that are harming the lives of women _ making that are harming the lives of women or— making that are harming the lives of women or whoever— making that are harming the lives of women or whoever is _ making that are harming the lives of women or whoever is in— making that are harming the lives of women or whoever is in that - making that are harming the lives of women or whoever is in that state. i women or whoever is in that state. my takeaway— women or whoever is in that state. my takeaway from _ women or whoever is in that state. my takeaway from this _ women or whoever is in that state. my takeaway from this is, - women or whoever is in that state. my takeaway from this is, we - women or whoever is in that state. my takeaway from this is, we have| my takeaway from this is, we have -ot my takeaway from this is, we have got a _ my takeaway from this is, we have got a lot— my takeaway from this is, we have got a lot to — my takeaway from this is, we have got a lot to learn _ my takeaway from this is, we have got a lot to learn and _ my takeaway from this is, we have got a lot to learn and we _ my takeaway from this is, we have got a lot to learn and we simply i got a lot to learn and we simply cannot— got a lot to learn and we simply cannot keep _ got a lot to learn and we simply cannot keep expecting - got a lot to learn and we simply cannot keep expecting to - got a lot to learn and we simply cannot keep expecting to do - got a lot to learn and we simply - cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment— cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment in— cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment in the _ cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment in the way— cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment in the way we _ cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment in the way we have - cannot keep expecting to do medical treatment in the way we have been i treatment in the way we have been over and _ treatment in the way we have been overand over— treatment in the way we have been overand overagain. _ treatment in the way we have been over and over again.— over and over again. that is so fascinating. — over and over again. that is so fascinating. l _ over and over again. that is so fascinating, i thought - over and over again. that is so fascinating, i thought you - over and over again. that is so | fascinating, i thought you were immediately going to jump towards funding and the different models we have what you are saying, i think, is it doesn't really matter what model you have, it is about listening to patients and having systems that work and it is about learning from the things that work and we don't do that enough. that is riuht. we and we don't do that enough. that is right- we can — and we don't do that enough. that is right. we can now, _ and we don't do that enough. that is right. we can now, we _ and we don't do that enough. that is right. we can now, we have - and we don't do that enough. that is right. we can now, we have the - right. we can now, we have the technology— right. we can now, we have the technology and _ right. we can now, we have the technology and tools _ right. we can now, we have the technology and tools to - right. we can now, we have the technology and tools to do - right. we can now, we have the technology and tools to do it. i right. we can now, we have the i technology and tools to do it. you see it _ technology and tools to do it. you see it in _ technology and tools to do it. you see it in every— technology and tools to do it. you see it in every industry. _ technology and tools to do it. you see it in every industry. it- technology and tools to do it. you see it in every industry. it is- see it in every industry. it is imperative _ see it in every industry. it is imperative that— see it in every industry. it is imperative that we - see it in every industry. it is imperative that we start - see it in every industry. it is. imperative that we start having

government _ imperative that we start having government institutions - imperative that we start having government institutions do - imperative that we start havingl government institutions do this, imperative that we start having - government institutions do this, not simply— government institutions do this, not simply take — government institutions do this, not simply take the _ government institutions do this, not simply take the data, _ government institutions do this, not simply take the data, but _ government institutions do this, not simply take the data, but speak- simply take the data, but speak about— simply take the data, but speak about what _ simply take the data, but speak about what government - simply take the data, but speak about what government is - simply take the data, but speak. about what government is learning along _ about what government is learning along the — about what government is learning along the way— about what government is learning along the way and _ about what government is learning along the way and that _ about what government is learning along the way and that is - about what government is learning along the way and that is how- about what government is learning along the way and that is how we i along the way and that is how we will bring — along the way and that is how we will bring confidence _ along the way and that is how we will bring confidence back- along the way and that is how we will bring confidence back into i will bring confidence back into institutions— will bring confidence back into institutions and _ will bring confidence back into institutions and how _ will bring confidence back into institutions and how we - will bring confidence back into institutions and how we will i will bring confidence back into - institutions and how we will make sure that — institutions and how we will make sure that people _ institutions and how we will make sure that people who _ institutions and how we will make sure that people who go - institutions and how we will make sure that people who go into - institutions and how we will make sure that people who go into a i sure that people who go into a hospital— sure that people who go into a hospital know _ sure that people who go into a hospital know they _ sure that people who go into a hospital know they will - sure that people who go into a hospital know they will be - sure that people who go into a i hospital know they will be taken care of. — hospital know they will be taken care of. they— hospital know they will be taken care of, they can _ hospital know they will be taken care of, they can see _ hospital know they will be taken care of, they can see it- hospital know they will be taken care of, they can see it in- hospital know they will be taken care of, they can see it in the i hospital know they will be taken i care of, they can see it in the data and feel— care of, they can see it in the data and feel it — care of, they can see it in the data and feel it in — care of, they can see it in the data and feel it in their— care of, they can see it in the data and feel it in their experience. - care of, they can see it in the data and feel it in their experience. itilliej and feel it in their experience. we could let and feel it in their experience. could let this descend into, since 2010, we have put comparatively less money into the nhs, we have come through a pandemic, maybe it is not to do with how much money we put in, maybe it is the system. i know that you have an issue about gps, maybe if we had a better system for going to see gps, people would be more satisfied. i to see gps, people would be more satisfied. ~ , , , _, , satisfied. i think this survey comes two ears satisfied. i think this survey comes two years after _ satisfied. i think this survey comes two years after we _ satisfied. i think this survey comes two years after we are _ satisfied. i think this survey comes two years after we are all - satisfied. i think this survey comes two years after we are all standing | two years after we are all standing outside _ two years after we are all standing outside our— two years after we are all standing outside our houses clapping for the nhs, _ outside our houses clapping for the nhs, save — outside our houses clapping for the nhs, save our nhs, and i think, that is quite _ nhs, save our nhs, and i think, that is quite interesting there has been

a shift, _ is quite interesting there has been a shift, but — is quite interesting there has been a shift, but i think the problem the nhs has _ a shift, but i think the problem the nhs has got, it has been a sacred cow for— nhs has got, it has been a sacred cow for so — nhs has got, it has been a sacred cow for so long in the minds of politicians _ cow for so long in the minds of politicians and no one has been brave _ politicians and no one has been brave enough to say, look, the model is a bit _ brave enough to say, look, the model is a bit out _ brave enough to say, look, the model is a bit out of— brave enough to say, look, the model is a bit out of date, we need to look— is a bit out of date, we need to look at — is a bit out of date, we need to look at different ways of running it and different ways of maybe certain areas _ and different ways of maybe certain areas need — and different ways of maybe certain areas need to be run, you know, totally— areas need to be run, you know, totally revolutionised and no one will do _ totally revolutionised and no one will do that, because every time any politician _ will do that, because every time any politician tries to do anything with the nhs, — politician tries to do anything with the nhs, everybody becomes hysterical. what has happened is it has got _ hysterical. what has happened is it has got bigger, fatter and slower and less— has got bigger, fatter and slower and less and less efficient and it is now— and less and less efficient and it is now almost like a giant blob and it is very— is now almost like a giant blob and it is very hard to know where to start _ it is very hard to know where to start it — it is very hard to know where to start. , , , , it is very hard to know where to start. ,,., , , ., it is very hard to know where to start. ,, , .,, ., start. it is probably a bit of both, when ou start. it is probably a bit of both, when you read — start. it is probably a bit of both, when you read this _ start. it is probably a bit of both, when you read this report, - start. it is probably a bit of both, when you read this report, there | start. it is probably a bit of both, - when you read this report, there was a problem with a lack of staff. there was a problem with funding, thatis there was a problem with funding, that is certainly true, but equally what you just talked about was a culture within the nhs, a system

within the nhs were natural birth trumped everything else. it is a bit of what you are both talking about. the thing is, there is always going to be _ the thing is, there is always going to be a _ the thing is, there is always going to be a problem with funding of the nhs, _ to be a problem with funding of the nhs, demand is always going to accede _ nhs, demand is always going to accede but we are capable of. we still have — accede but we are capable of. we still have situations in the nhs where — still have situations in the nhs where they will pay £70 for a translator to come and show someone how to _ translator to come and show someone how to do _ translator to come and show someone how to do a _ translator to come and show someone how to do a perfectly straightforward thing like, doing a bit of— straightforward thing like, doing a bit of physio on their arm. we waste so much _ bit of physio on their arm. we waste so much money and, quite often, the approach _ so much money and, quite often, the approach is _ so much money and, quite often, the approach is very non—solution all and very— approach is very non—solution all and very rigid and we just need to open _ and very rigid and we just need to open our— and very rigid and we just need to open our minds to the possibility that we _ open our minds to the possibility that we could do some things a bit differently and it might actually help it — differently and it might actually help it and us.— differently and it might actually help it and us. there is such a big debate there _ help it and us. there is such a big debate there and _ help it and us. there is such a big debate there and it _ help it and us. there is such a big debate there and it probably - help it and us. there is such a big i debate there and it probably needs a cross—party debate. a conservative politician has announced he is trans in a highly personal twitter post that also details his experiences

of rape and blackmail. jamie wallis, an mp for bridgend in wales said: "i m trans. or to be more accurate, i want to be. i've been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and i've felt this way since i was a very young child." mr wallis went on to say he intended to keep it private — but "being an mp and hiding something like this was always going to be tough." mr wallis s statement this moring — hours after borisjohnson reportedly begun a speech at a conservative party dinner tuesday night, with the opening line: good evening ladies and gentleman, or as keir starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth. his line referred to the labour leader who earlier in the week had struggled in a radio interview to answer a question whether a woman can have a penis. which brings us to the wider question, why are politicians so nervous so hesitant to discuss these issues in public?

because it is a minefield and because, you know, also i think it is generational, most senior politicians tend to be in their 50s and, you know, if you ask most 20—year—olds what they think of this, they will automatically give you a straightforward answer, because they have a different reality. politicians are conscious that it reality. politicians are conscious thatitis reality. politicians are conscious that it is a very complex field and i have written a lot about protecting safe spaces for women and there are issues there and there are real issues there. we had a situation where a woman was raped on a single sex female ward and she was told by the hospital that she could not be raped because there was not a woman on the word, because the person who did it was a trans woman. there is a mad weird situation, it is very hard to know how to deal with that. there is a cowardice

towards confronting this head on and having open and honest discussions and i think there isn't anyone who wants anyone who is trans to suffer at all, but it does not mean to say that because the trans community is more accepted and has more rights, that women should lose their rights. there is an important conversation to be had here. the difficulty for politicians is that whatever they say, they will immediately get attacked on social media on twitter and it is impossible because everyone is shouting all at once. let's bring in kate sosin, lgbtq+ reporter for the the 19th news. welcome to the programme. what do you think? is sarah right? do politicians find it difficult to talk about?— politicians find it difficult to talk about? ., ,, . ., talk about? thank you so much for havin: talk about? thank you so much for

having me- — talk about? thank you so much for having me- i— talk about? thank you so much for having me. i am _ talk about? thank you so much for having me. i am a _ talk about? thank you so much for having me. i am a non-binary- talk about? thank you so much for| having me. i am a non-binary trans having me. i am a non—binary trans person _ having me. i am a non—binary trans person i_ having me. i am a non—binary trans person. i think it is important to be really— person. i think it is important to be really sensitive to the safety of women _ be really sensitive to the safety of women and that is critical, right? i think— women and that is critical, right? i think that — women and that is critical, right? i think that when we talk about trans people. _ think that when we talk about trans people, like we were talk about any marginalised community, any time that we _ marginalised community, any time that we have a conversation that we have one _ that we have a conversation that we have one person and that person's actions _ have one person and that person's actions are — have one person and that person's actions are being attributed to their— actions are being attributed to their gender or any specific characteristic about them and we are saying _ characteristic about them and we are saying that _ characteristic about them and we are saying that it is because of their identity. — saying that it is because of their identity, then we get into really tricky— identity, then we get into really tricky water, right? because we say that, _ tricky water, right? because we say that, we _ tricky water, right? because we say that, we have a person of colour who robbed _ that, we have a person of colour who robbed a _ that, we have a person of colour who robbed a convenience store and we need _ robbed a convenience store and we need to— robbed a convenience store and we need to keep people of colour out of the convenience stores, historically we know— the convenience stores, historically we know that does not bode well, that is— we know that does not bode well, that is a _ we know that does not bode well,

that is a really problematic way to report— that is a really problematic way to report on— that is a really problematic way to report on people and as a journalist, i would report on people and as a journalist, iwould not report on people and as a journalist, i would not do that. when — journalist, i would not do that. when we — journalist, i would not do that. when we talk about trans people, we have one _ when we talk about trans people, we have one transgender person and if we had _ have one transgender person and if we had reported on this, we might have _ we had reported on this, we might have one _ we had reported on this, we might have one transgender person who does something _ have one transgender person who does something wrong, it is usually such an isolated — something wrong, it is usually such an isolated incident. in the reporting that i do, as a transgender person, covering transgender person, covering transgender people, we have millions of transgender people using bathrooms every day or going into women's — bathrooms every day or going into women's spaces every day and there are not— women's spaces every day and there are not incidents. i think we have to think— are not incidents. i think we have to think about the way that we frame these _ to think about the way that we frame these issues, which is not she a transgender person be able to use our public— transgender person be able to use our public spaces, but why is it that— our public spaces, but why is it that we — our public spaces, but why is it that we frame this issue as women and transgender women are notjust women _ and transgender women are notjust women who are coming from lots of different— women who are coming from lots of different experiences. a women who are coming from lots of different experiences.— different experiences. a really interesting — different experiences. a really interesting point. _

different experiences. a really interesting point. i— different experiences. a really interesting point. i want- different experiences. a really interesting point. i want to i different experiences. a really| interesting point. i want tojust interesting point. i want to just get back to this, how people deal with it and talk about it. it is not just politicians. i want to play our audience a clip, this is the nominee for the supreme court. she is a really smart person. she is one of the topjudges in really smart person. she is one of the top judges in the country and this is how she answered the question about trans rights during her senate confirmation hearing. during her senate confirmation hearinu. ., ,, during her senate confirmation hearinu. ., , ., ., hearing. can you provide a definition _ hearing. can you provide a definition for _ hearing. can you provide a definition for the - hearing. can you provide a definition for the word - hearing. can you provide a - definition for the word woman? can hearing. can you provide a _ definition for the word woman? can i rovide a definition for the word woman? can i provide a definition? _ definition for the word woman? can i provide a definition? i _ definition for the word woman? can i provide a definition? i can't. - definition for the word woman? can i provide a definition? i can't. you - provide a definition? i can't. you can't? not— provide a definition? i can't. you can't? not in _ provide a definition? i can't. you can't? not in this _ provide a definition? i can't. you can't? not in this context, - provide a definition? i can't. you can't? not in this context, i - provide a definition? i can't. you can't? not in this context, i am | provide a definition? i can't. you i can't? not in this context, i am not a biologist- — can't? not in this context, i am not a biologist- l _ can't? not in this context, i am not a biologist. i am _ can't? not in this context, i am not a biologist. i am not _ can't? not in this context, i am not a biologist. i am not a _ can't? not in this context, i am not a biologist. i am not a biologist. i a biologist. i am not a biologist. it strikes me _ a biologist. i am not a biologist. it strikes me as _ a biologist. i am not a biologist. it strikes me as interesting, - a biologist. i am not a biologist. it strikes me as interesting, did| it strikes me as interesting, did she not think she was going to get that question? it seems to be an obvious question that you would ask a liberaljudge in a context like this, particularly when it has become such a political issue, why

would she find it difficult to answer? i would she find it difficult to answer? ~ ., would she find it difficult to answer? ~' ., . ., , would she find it difficult to answer? ~' ., _, , ., answer? i think there are couple of thins answer? i think there are couple of things going _ answer? i think there are couple of things going on- — answer? i think there are couple of things going on- l _ answer? i think there are couple of things going on. i want _ answer? i think there are couple of things going on. i want to - answer? i think there are couple of things going on. i want to say - answer? i think there are couple of things going on. i want to say howl things going on. i want to say how much _ things going on. i want to say how much i _ things going on. i want to say how much i appreciate _ things going on. i want to say how much i appreciate and _ things going on. i want to say how much i appreciate and love - things going on. i want to say how much i appreciate and love the - things going on. i want to say how. much i appreciate and love the show, because _ much i appreciate and love the show, because on— much i appreciate and love the show, because on this — much i appreciate and love the show, because on this topic, _ much i appreciate and love the show, because on this topic, what _ much i appreciate and love the show, because on this topic, what you - much i appreciate and love the show, because on this topic, what you did i because on this topic, what you did is she _ because on this topic, what you did is she brought _ because on this topic, what you did is she brought somebody— because on this topic, what you did is she brought somebody who - is she brought somebody who actually has lived _ is she brought somebody who actually has lived experience _ is she brought somebody who actually has lived experience on— is she brought somebody who actually has lived experience on this _ is she brought somebody who actually has lived experience on this and - is she brought somebody who actually has lived experience on this and if - has lived experience on this and if we can— has lived experience on this and if we can actually— has lived experience on this and if we can actually model _ has lived experience on this and if we can actually model that, - has lived experience on this and if we can actually model that, when| has lived experience on this and if i we can actually model that, when we are talking _ we can actually model that, when we are talking about _ we can actually model that, when we are talking about things _ we can actually model that, when we are talking about things that - we can actually model that, when we are talking about things that we i we can actually model that, when we are talking about things that we are i are talking about things that we are unfamiliar— are talking about things that we are unfamiliar with, _ are talking about things that we are unfamiliar with, let— are talking about things that we are unfamiliar with, let us— are talking about things that we are unfamiliar with, let us hear- are talking about things that we are unfamiliar with, let us hear from i unfamiliar with, let us hear from folks— unfamiliar with, let us hear from folks who — unfamiliar with, let us hear from folks who are _ unfamiliar with, let us hear from folks who are going _ unfamiliar with, let us hear from folks who are going through i unfamiliar with, let us hear froml folks who are going through this, unfamiliar with, let us hear from i folks who are going through this, i think— folks who are going through this, i think that — folks who are going through this, i think that is — folks who are going through this, i think that is the _ folks who are going through this, i think that is the first _ folks who are going through this, i think that is the first step - folks who are going through this, i think that is the first step of - think that is the first step of truly— think that is the first step of truly understanding - think that is the first step of truly understanding the i think that is the first step of - truly understanding the conversation around _ truly understanding the conversation around trams — truly understanding the conversation around trams and _ truly understanding the conversation around trams and the _ truly understanding the conversation around trams and the conversation i around trams and the conversation around _ around trams and the conversation around race — around trams and the conversation around race and _ around trams and the conversation around race and gender— around trams and the conversation around race and gender and - around trams and the conversation around race and genderand i- around trams and the conversation around race and gender and i wish| around race and gender and i wish more _ around race and gender and i wish more politicians, _ around race and gender and i wish more politicians, when— around race and gender and i wish more politicians, when they - around race and gender and i wish more politicians, when they are i more politicians, when they are unfamiliar— more politicians, when they are unfamiliar with _ more politicians, when they are unfamiliar with something, i more politicians, when they arej unfamiliar with something, that more politicians, when they are i unfamiliar with something, that they actually— unfamiliar with something, that they actually take — unfamiliar with something, that they actually take a — unfamiliar with something, that they actually take a moment _ unfamiliar with something, that they actually take a moment to _ unfamiliar with something, that they actually take a moment to have i unfamiliar with something, that theyl actually take a moment to have some empathy— actually take a moment to have some empathy and — actually take a moment to have some empathy and listen _ actually take a moment to have some empathy and listen and _ actually take a moment to have some empathy and listen and learn - actually take a moment to have some empathy and listen and learn and i empathy and listen and learn and understand — empathy and listen and learn and understand what— empathy and listen and learn and understand what it _ empathy and listen and learn and understand what it must - empathy and listen and learn and understand what it must be i empathy and listen and learn and understand what it must be like i empathy and listen and learn and l understand what it must be like to grow _ understand what it must be like to grow up— understand what it must be like to grow up and — understand what it must be like to grow up and feel— understand what it must be like to grow up and feel like _ understand what it must be like to grow up and feel like your- understand what it must be like to grow up and feel like your body. understand what it must be like to grow up and feel like your body is| grow up and feel like your body is not who— grow up and feel like your body is not who you — grow up and feel like your body is not who you are _ grow up and feel like your body is not who you are and _ grow up and feel like your body is not who you are and if— grow up and feel like your body is not who you are and if we - grow up and feel like your body is| not who you are and if we actually approach — not who you are and if we actually approach things _ not who you are and if we actually approach things like _ not who you are and if we actually approach things like that - not who you are and if we actually approach things like that and i not who you are and if we actually approach things like that and it i approach things like that and it should — approach things like that and it should be _ approach things like that and it should be politicians _ approach things like that and it should be politicians who i approach things like that and it i should be politicians who actually laid on that — should be politicians who actually laid on that kind _ should be politicians who actually laid on that kind of— should be politicians who actually laid on that kind of approach i should be politicians who actually laid on that kind of approach and | laid on that kind of approach and then_ laid on that kind of approach and then we — laid on that kind of approach and then we would _ laid on that kind of approach and then we would be _ laid on that kind of approach and then we would be having - laid on that kind of approach and i

then we would be having an entirely different_ then we would be having an entirely different conversation _ then we would be having an entirely different conversation and _ then we would be having an entirely different conversation and it - then we would be having an entirely different conversation and it would i different conversation and it would not have _ different conversation and it would not have been_ different conversation and it would not have been such _ different conversation and it would not have been such an _ different conversation and it would | not have been such an antagonistic -- exchange — not have been such an antagonistic -- exchange that _ not have been such an antagonistic —— exchange that really _ not have been such an antagonistic —— exchange that really wanted - not have been such an antagonistic —— exchange that really wanted toi —— exchange that really wanted to have _ —— exchange that really wanted to have their — —— exchange that really wanted to have their own _ —— exchange that really wanted to have their own opinion. _ —— exchange that really wanted to have their own opinion. the- -- exchange that really wanted to have their own opinion.— have their own opinion. the point is, kate, there _ have their own opinion. the point is, kate, there was _ have their own opinion. the point is, kate, there was today, - have their own opinion. the point is, kate, there was today, on - have their own opinion. the point i is, kate, there was today, on social media, such an outpouring of support and understanding forjamie wallace, there really was. which tells me that trans people have come a long way, that is a factor, but the problem is, if you cannot have a productive dialogue about it without both sides attacking each other or feeling uncomfortable about it, then it becomes a radioactive issue and i just wonder, and i do not for one second imagine what trans people have had to go through, but ijust wonder if some of the debate has become too toxic?— wonder if some of the debate has become too toxic? sure. i think it has. part become too toxic? sure. i think it has- part of _ become too toxic? sure. i think it has. part of that _ become too toxic? sure. i think it has. part of that is _ become too toxic? sure. i think it has. part of that is that _ become too toxic? sure. i think it has. part of that is that we - become too toxic? sure. i think it has. part of that is that we have l has. part of that is that we have politicised our humanity, right? it is not a republican or democratic issue, if i can go to the bathroom

or participate in public life, right, that is not a conservative issue, it isjust right, that is not a conservative issue, it is just an right, that is not a conservative issue, it isjust an issue... is it issue, it is 'ust an issue... is it more issue, it isjust an issue... is it more difficult _ issue, it isjust an issue... is it more difficult for _ issue, it isjust an issue... is it more difficult for politicians on the left to talk about because they are expected to have a position where you might expect conservative people not to fully understand it? i can't answer that, because i am not a politician, but what i can say is when we sit down with people, and we break it down in a really simple way, we don't give yourself enough credit, we are able to get on the same page. things that people tell me all the time is, the pronouns are hard for me, why should i have to do that on my answer is always, you don't, but you probably do not get to talk to someone who does that, because they will not want to hang out with you, which is a shame, because you are probably missing out on that person and a person is probably missing out on you and when i tell people who struggle with that

is, you want to use an iphone, so did i, it changes and updates in the middle of the night all the time and my whole world is chaos, we are so much smarter than we give ourselves credit for and if we do want to have these deeper connections with people who are different than us, then maybe we do learn a little bit and thatis maybe we do learn a little bit and that is ok. our world has changed a lot. that has to be ok, so that we can just get along and figure each other out and it does not have to be this huge politicalfight, because there are a lot of people who would want to know you and i think you might want to know them, if you just do the bare minimum. a, might want to know them, if you 'ust do the bare minimumi do the bare minimum. a pleasure to talk to yom —

we are so insignificant in this cosmos. and if you doubt that the hubble telescope just served up a timely reminder. it has found a star that is iz—point—9 billion light—years away. it could be 50, maybe 500—times larger than our sun. (biv) it has been named 'earendal�*an old english name for 'morning star'. let's bring in someone who knows what it is like to live 250 miles above the earth —— leroy chiao is a former commander of the international space station, and a good friend of this programme. let's bring in leroy chiao — former nasa astronaut and international space station commander. i look today at just how far away 28 billion light—years is, mars isjust 12 light minutes away and it would take us a year and a half to get there! this is a staggering distance and we are not even meant to understand how far away this is! that is right, the 12.9 billion light years is getting pretty close to the edge of the big bang. what to the edge of the big bang. what this observation _ to the edge of the big bang. what this observation is _ to the edge of the big bang. ib'ft�*ué�*ii this observation is exciting to the edge of the big bang. “ta"uagt this observation is exciting is because we can see the light that is

happening now, what has happened to that store in the 12.9 billion years because the light we are seeing closer to earth is 12.9 billion years old and now that hubble has been able to look all the way back to where the store is now and see what has happened to it in that 12.9 billion years. hts what has happened to it in that 12.9 billion yew-— billion years. it's still there. yes. if billion years. it's still there. yes- if it — billion years. it's still there. yes. if it is _ billion years. it's still there. yes. if it is so _ billion years. it's still there. yes. if it is so far _ billion years. it's still there. yes. if it is so far back- billion years. it's still there. yes. if it is so far back in . billion years. it's still there. i yes. if it is so far back in time, ma be yes. if it is so far back in time, maybe it _ yes. if it is so far back in time, maybe it is _ yes. if it is so far back in time, maybe it is not! _ yes. if it is so far back in time, maybe it is not! it _ yes. if it is so far back in time, maybe it is not! it is, - yes. if it is so far back in time, maybe it is not! it is, becausel yes. if it is so far back in time, i maybe it is not! it is, because the idea is that _ maybe it is not! it is, because the idea is that the _ maybe it is not! it is, because the idea is that the hubble _ maybe it is not! it is, because the idea is that the hubble can - maybe it is not! it is, because the idea is that the hubble can see i maybe it is not! it is, because the i idea is that the hubble can see that far back in distance and so it is seeing the light that is basically been omitted right now by that star was the light we are seen on earth, was the light we are seen on earth, was created 12.9 billion years ago. 0k. was created 12.9 billion years ago. ok. i want to ask you about the astronaut who has come back today, the american astronaut, with the russian cosmonauts. did you get to

know the russian cosmonauts you were on board with? hater? know the russian cosmonauts you were on board with?— know the russian cosmonauts you were on board with?_ how i on board with? very much so. how would it have _ on board with? very much so. how would it have been, _ on board with? very much so. how would it have been, in _ on board with? very much so. how would it have been, in the - on board with? very much so. how would it have been, in the context| would it have been, in the context of the war in ukraine, do you think thatis of the war in ukraine, do you think that is complicated it for them? h0. that is complicated it for them? no, i reall that is complicated it for them? no, i really don't- _ that is complicated it for them? no, i really don't. we _ that is complicated it for them? iiift, i really don't. we have all trained together for a i really don't. we have all trained togetherfor a number of i really don't. we have all trained together for a number of years, i really don't. we have all trained togetherfor a number of years, you know, we know each other very well, we have become good friends, and we spent time in each other“s countries and we can see our perspectives and have discussions and it is all 0k, it is fine. i am sure there was no problem at all between professionals, whether they are cosmonauts or astronauts, people in the mission control centres and engineers and other specialist, they are dedicated to keeping operation safe and going and it was not a shock at all that this one went smoothly and mark vander hay is back on earth. , ., smoothly and mark vander hay is back on earth. , . . ,, smoothly and mark vander hay is back onearth. , . , on earth. they are back safely. thank you _ on earth. they are back safely. thank you very _ on earth. they are back safely. thank you very much _ on earth. they are back safely. thank you very much indeed. l

(pres)and just before we go — thank you to stefan levy. thanks for watching. we will see you tomorrow, good night. hello there. much colder weather has been arriving across the uk over recent hours. now, if we remember back to tuesday, the warmest parts of the country had temperatures into the high teens, but by wednesday those temperatures in places dropping by 11 celsius. that is as a cold front pushed its way through. we did see a little bit of snow around, generally while the snow did manage to come down, it came down in big chunky flakes, with temperatures hovering just above freezing and that helps these snowflakes kind of stick together, hence their large size, but for the most part, by the day, any snow is limited to hills in the north and over grass surfaces as well. we are looking at a cold start to thursday, with a widespread frost. the confluence itself bringing cold rain, could even bring a bit of snow to the hills in the south and there could be some

accumulations as well at the start of the day across parts of northern and eastern scotland and around the eastern side of england. certainly snow showers here and definitely the risk of icy surfaces as well. now, through the day on thursday, broadly speaking, it is a day of sunshine and showers. the showers will be falling as wintry in places and some of them are quite prolonged, potentially running in two parts of kent, you will not be surprised to see a bit of snow up over the highest hills here and, it will continue to be really quite windy through the day, across the east anglian and parts of south—east england, with gusts of wind running up to a0 mph. that is going to make it feel very cold, especially with temperatures of only around six, for example, in norwich, but these temperatures, across the board, are well below average for late march. leaving march behind, overnight and into the early hours of friday, which of course is april the 1st, april fools“ day, we will continue to see those showers rolling in, with a widespread frost around and again there will be some icy surfaces just about anywhere. the frost will be pretty sharp in places as well.

now, for friday, we start of april on a lovely sunny note for many of us, there will be showers around and they will continue to feed in on the wintry side, so a little bit of rain and sleet, perhaps a bit of hill snow. a more organised feature coming in to the west of scotland and that could bring a spell of hill snow here and the temperatures still 8—10 at best. it will continue to feel pretty cold, in fact, even into the weekend, temperatures are not going to rise a great deal. the winds continuing to feed in from a northerly direction, again bringing a mixture of sunshine and showers in this area of high pressure slowly retreating a little bit further westwards in the atlantic. so, saturday, perhaps something a little bit more organised coming into wales on the south west of england, we might see a little bit of hill snow there, a bit of help mixed in with the showers elsewhere, feeling cold again, temperatures for most parts around 8—10 c. on saturday, probably fewer showers around at the showers that do tend to come down will tend to focus across the north west of the uk.

again, there could be a little bit of hail mixed with these, but maybe something a bit drier across england and wales. it might be drier, but it will still be cold, temperatures still around 8—11 c also. the cold weather won't, though, last into next week, because ultimately we are going to see milder feedback coming around the top of our area of high pressure that is to our west. so, temperatures will be rising significantly as we go through next week, but there will still be a lot of cloud around and at times we are looking at some spells of rain, particularly across northern and western areas. temperatures coming back up to around 1a or 15 degrees. over the next three days, some snow around for some of you into thursday morning.

tonight at 10:00pm, the biggest review of maternity services in nhs history finds catastrophic failures that led to the deaths of hundreds of babies. families torn apart by repeated failures in maternity care at shrewsbury and telford nhs trust over a period of 20 years. really like now some space to grieve and actually put down the fight and grieve for my child, because i haven't been able to do that properly yet. the health secretary has apologised to the families for the "unimaginable trauma" they've suffered, and promised changes at a local and national level. also tonight... more russian shelling in northern ukraine, despite moscow's claim it's redeploying troops.