this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. where does vladimir putin's self—styled special military operation in ukraine go from here? he expected kyiv to fall quickly. it didn't. ukraine's determination to resist has not crumbled, despite the terrible human cost. russian losses mount and its economy is hurting. my guest is pro—putin russian mp maria butina.

in the invasion�*s second month, what do russians think it's achieving? maria butina in kirov, russia, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. hello. president putin insists that his so—called special military operation is going to plan. after five weeks, with everything we've seen in ukraine with this war, do you think that is true? yeah, absolutely. i think it's true because it would be naive from the west

to expect that this operation could end in a week. i have heard speculation about it, and some people would say, "well, it should end quickly." i don't think so, because russian forces are very careful, so they don't hurt the civilian population. if they wanted to finish it very quickly, they could just, you know, smash the whole territory. but we don't do it. we do as careful as possible so the civilians don't suffer. but that sort of misses one key point, doesn't it? we understand very clearly that vladimir putin expected ukrainian resistance to be minimal. he expected resistance to crumble and that his forces could rush straight to kyiv and take control of the country. and one reason we know that is that state media in russia, for example, the ria novosti news agency,

had prepared victorious articles which were published by mistake within two days of the invasion, declaring victory. that's what you thought would happen, but it didn't. well, in fact, i wouldn't speculate on this topic, because we still don't know if this is true and if any russian agencies were trying and who did any news about celebrating any victory. as much as i know as a member of russian parliament, we expected that it's going to be a pretty, well, long, timely operation, and it absolutely goes as planned. and nobody, i guess, knows what is the plan of president putin's, because this is secret information that is not revealed to ordinary civilians, including the members of the parliament. well, forgive me for interrupting, ms butina, but if only president putin knows the plan and you don't know the plan, how can you tell me that you're absolutely sure everything is going to plan? well, and this is a very smart question. well, i read a lot, and i studied political

science, as well as read a lot of books, classical books about strategy. and if you look at any military strategy, you would never expect it to be on such big territory as ukraine is and including the goals that we expect to be achieved, such as do not harm civilian population. so this operation goes quickly and works well. nobody could expect if you have any special knowledge about it. well, yeah, i don't know how much special military knowledge you have, but the facts are these, that, you know, more than 190,000 russian forces have been deployed. your losses amount, according to the ukrainian side, to something like 17,000 troops killed. the us intelligence sources suggest at least 10,000 russians have been killed, and you haven't taken a single major ukrainian city. and indeed, in certain areas around kyiv and chernihiv, your own commanders are saying that you're going to

dramatically reduce military operations. so how does all that add up to something that is going absolutely to plan? well, first of all, i wouldn't comment ukrainian or western information about the losses. well, i do trust only the official information that the government, russian government, the ministry of defence gives us. well, i can tell you about my experience that i have from the territory i represent in the state duma. i should tell you, while we are... i won't tell you how many, but it's less than 20 people. well, of course, every life is very important, but the losses are not what the west says they are. sorry... sorry, forgive me for misunderstanding — what is less than 20 people? i'm not sure what you're saying. well, these are professional soldiers who for this time who have been killed. and every soul for us is preciously important. all the information i post on my social networks,

and i do help, as well as other members of our parliament, too, the members of the families who lost their lives. but your own ministry of defence acknowledges that 1,351 russian troops have been killed. that's the official russian figure. well, i'm only talking about my area i represent, in the state duma, because what i do today, i have a territory... well, sometimes if you compare to the us system or uk system, it's a state, i guess, so that i represent and i am responsible. i understand that. so that figure of 20 concerns your own district. i understand that now. yeah. it's just very striking to me that valentina melnikova, secretary of the union of the committees of soldiers' the mothers of serving soldiers, she says that she believes ukraine's data on the scale of russian casualties is credible. she says, quote, "i see

the list provided by the ukrainian side "and i tend to trust those lists "because they have names." and she goes on to say that russian mothers cannot fight for genuine information or search for their sons inside russia because of a fear of repression. now, that is a russian mother of a soldier speaking. i don't think what she believes in. but what i see, according to the place where i am and according to the territory i represent, i know the numbers, and i help to every family that lost a soldier. so i don't know what her beliefs are. and, you know, i don't know how truthful she is in the words she's saying, but i hope she really believes what she says. but you know, the facts tell the opposite. you see, truth�*s a complicated concept here, isn't it? because on march 8th, president putin told all of russia's citizens that

conscript soldiers are not participating in hostilities and will not participate. there will be no additional call—up of reservists, he went on to say. he was not telling the truth, was he? because we now know that conscripts have been serving in this war on russia's side. listen, again, if such cases... i've heard about such cases happening, they're individual cases, one or two, not more. i can't tell you the numbers, i don't know, but what i can tell you for sure, that we're very careful in my region, kirov 0blast, it's always about that no one soldier, except of professional military guys, are in the army. i don't know about your district. my point is a wider one, that vladimir putin right now is not telling the truth to his own people. well, president putin is telling the truth to the people, and if the mistake is happening there, a person who is responsible immediately is punished.

so, you know, he is telling the truth. why do you think so many russian generals have already lost their lives in this war if it's going to plan? and again, we're talking about so many, so we can't even agree on numbers. i only think that facts are truthful, and i do only believe to the official information and the things i see and the families i help every day. so i don't believe in speculation, and i'm not going to speculate on this. i just... you know, when the ukrainian side says some number, why should i trust it when they are the opposite side? of course they're going to tell anything they want and they can, so to make russians scared. well, this is a military operation. i wouldn't be, you know, believing in such things... yes. ..from the side who is opposite. well, you've made it plain already in the conversation we've had that you're not going to take seriously

or believe in any information provided from the ukrainian side of this war. so let me try you with information coming from the united nations and from the high commissioner for human rights office in geneva. they said just a short while ago, quote, "civilians "are being killed and maimed in what appear to be "indiscriminate attacks, with russian forces using "explosive weapons with wide—area effects in or near "many populated areas. "the missiles, heavy artillery shells and rockets have also "been added to by air strikes." now, that's from the un, that's not from ukraine, and it suggests that your side of this war, the russian side, is flouting the rules of war. i'm very curious why the un is not telling that azov, which are military forces of ukraine, have taken civilian objects in making their military bases. and they don't talk that a lot

of these civilian objects, they transform into, you know, the point where they are located so they can shoot russian forces. well, nobody talks about it. and i talk to many witnesses who actually have their homes being taken, not voluntarily, as you may guess, and azov is just located there. some hospitals never were... nobody says that even the children garden are used today by azov so they are not attacked by the russian forces. this is not fair. ms butina, have you seen the video evidence from mariupol, from other ukrainian cities, as well, which shows that vast tracts of residential building have been destroyed by russian shell and rocket and missile fire? have you seen that visual evidence for yourself? who has been in these places? well, in fact, yesterday, just yesterday i had

a family evacuated. they are refugees from mariupol, and i asked them exactly the same question. i asked, "well, what about that hospital where you say "the pregnant women have been and saw?" and these people lived close by. here's what they say. they say, in fact, it hasn't worked for a year because they were doing some repairjob. there were no patients there and azovjust took it. yes. and russia, two days prior, talking about this hospital, told to the united nations that there are azov forces there and they're going to bomb it because there are no civilians there. and so you take the building and you say that... unfortunately for you and for that story, it's simply not true, is it? two well—respected, independent journalists from the associated press were in mariupol at the time that the maternity hospital was hit.

they know it was functioning. they were there directly after the hit on the building, they saw that pregnant women and babies were affected by that attack. they also spoke to a doctor who said that one woman who survived the attack and her stillborn child, of course, lost their lives as a result of that attack. that was recorded by independentjournalists who were still in mariupol. so your story of the azov battalions taking over that particular building doesn't stand up. no, no, no, it's not my story, it's the story of the people who live close by, and talking about independentjournalists who have been there, what we have seen, i haven't been there, you haven't been there. we only have seen pictures. we don't know how these pictures were taken. no, i'm referring to journalists who have been there, unlike you. i don't know. forgive me for asking, but when were you...? i haven't been there at that time. how can i speculate on this? yes, well... you show me the pictures

and say, "well, you should "trust me, but these are good guys. "these are independent journalists" and you know these journalists, they have been there. why should i believe them? well, i do believe to the families that lost their home. i know i've seen what happened with their home. there is nothing there. so azovjust came and took their home. so these people now, of course, they are under my protection because i feel terribly sorry. think about yourself, if one day, somebody comes to you, some military guys and say, "well, you don't "live here any more. "we just want it for our military base." so i do believe to these stories because i do see real people, not those independentjournalists. so, to be clear, then, every single case of a hospital hit, civilian buildings hit across ukraine, but particularly in cities like mariupol and kharkiv, you're saying every single time, it was only as a result of ukrainian forces, including this azov battalion you refer to, taking over these buildings and using them

for their military operations, and you include in that, do you, the mariupol theatre, which was housing, according to human rights watch, who have interviewed dozens and dozens of witnesses, that theatre, which was housing hundreds of desperate people sheltering from the russian shell fire and who were hit directly when that theatre was struck? and according to the ukrainians, 300 died. you're saying all of that is a total fabrication? see, if i were there, i would tell you the facts. i tell you the facts about the things i really know because i've seen people and i've seen the neighbours of them, and i do know that russian forces, they do not attack civilian objects unless there is azov sitting there and there are no civilians. so this speculation on, you know, "we have seen such a story from these journalists", me, as a russian,

well, i am very sceptical about any western reports today because it's used against russia in the information operation. you know, sometimes they are fabricated. i don't know if this is the case. this is the problem of the dialogue between russia and the west today. because the west sometimes wants to speculate on facts. show the pictures... do you think...? ..we don't trust. do you think the investigators at the international criminal court in the hague will give any credence to the story you're telling me? well, tell me, please, why they ban such television as rt, for example. well, how about showing all the positions like our position, too? and let in us to show what it is, what is true and let people to decide, but see what the west is doing... let me finish. you just simply ban our tv channels. is itfair? we'll get to media coverage and tv coverage in a moment,

butjust one more point on mariupol. i'm very intrigued that you keep telling me, "oh, i've spoken to someone from mariupol." we get reports that thousands of residents of mariupol have been forced by russian military personnel to go to screening centres and then be dispatched to various towns and cities across russia against their will. you, presumably, were talking to former residents of mariupol who are now under russian control. am i right? well, these people went all across crimea. they went through... they didn't go to the camp because they had their own car to drive. can you just answer my question? can you answer my question? this person you keep referring to whom you've spoken to from mariupol, were they currently living under russian control? well, they live in russia, in the area of my city, i don't tell what exact place because this is their... no, but my point is, do you think that the outside world is going to give any credence to former residents

of mariupol who have been forced into russia as a result of russia's military invasion, and you are now quoting them and expecting me to believe that they spoke of their own free will without any pressure at all from russia? they have absolutely free will. these people lost their homes, and these people came to russia voluntarily because they were escaping azov, because all the men, there is one man in the family, all the men are taken involuntarily by force by azov to go and serve for them or they kill their relatives. how about that? this is what these people say. yes, they are looking for to become refugees in russia because they are escaping the horror of azov and nazi battalions that are working here and there in ukraine. this is just the truth. ukraine clearly wants this war to end. president zelensky has made an offer, he made it through his negotiators in istanbul to the russian

side just the other day. neutrality, he says, no longer will ukraine seek to join nato as long as there are international guarantees of ukraine's security. he says that there should be president—to—president talks between him and putin about the future status of crimea and the donbas. what's russia's response to that? well, negotiations are still in place and i've seen a different information from one of the negotiators from the ukrainian side who actually says, well, not very nice things that are good for negotiations. for instance, he says that all russian troops should immediately leave the territory without any conditions. well, i think what they really should do, and i would recommend zelensky to do this, is to kind of be... play in the team, ukrainian team so they say the same things, because it's very hard to find who is the responsible person for the negotiations. what i do believe they're

doing, they're trying to, i don't know, they're waiting for the west's help or western help or whatever, but they don't want these negotiations to end as quickly as possible. no, ijust want to be clear whether there's any prospect of negotiations working, and that comes down to whether people like you, but in particular, of course, president putin himself, still regard president zelensky as the head of a quasi—nazi fascist regime which is committing genocide against russian—speaking peoples in his own country. have you abandoned that rhetoric or do you still say that is the truth? i do say it as the truth, and i would give you the facts. let me give you, just from the top of my mind, it's 2020, national holidays, bandera, who becomes the national hero. well, you don't need to give me much detail, miss butina. you've made it quite clear, you still think zelensky�*s a nazi, right? but the devil is in detail.

i'm just trying to establish the principle, because i'm just wondering, therefore, what is the point of negotiating with zelensky if you think zelensky is a nazi? it's absurd. well, he is the president of ukraine, and i hope he controls his negotiators, and i hope he controls azov battalions and the national ukrainian forces and he goes on the table and he signs the agreement. hopefully, ukrainians, this is up to them to decide who is going to be in charge, but what russian side says — ukraine should not for such policy as they have been doing for years. i mean, the nazis, and they are doing horrible things toward russians. for example, banning russian language. for example, killing people on donbas. they must stop doing this. yeah, all of your allegations about genocide against the ethnic russian peoples

in east ukraine have been dismissed by independent international investigators. they've been utterly dismissed. before we end, though, i want to ask you... who are they independent from? i want to ask you something else. why do you ban rt, then? the 0sce has been monitoring events in eastern ukraine for years now. they totally dismiss your talk of genocide. so, they would... so they would say that for eight years, nobody from the ukrainian side shoot people in donbas. but they did. what about these independent journalists? let me ask you something, miss butina. we're almost out of time. let me ask you a very simple question — why is the russian government, led by president putin, so frightened of any russian dissent against this war? russians are not frightened of anything, and russians have started this operation, and this military operation goes according to the plan. and i've heard many comments...

if i may interrupt you because we're almost out of time. you were one of the architects of legislation which imprisons for 15 years anybody who calls it a war, describes it as an invasion or expresses any criticism of it. you're a former journalist. you in the past have made loud proclamations about the importance of press freedom. you know now that there is no press freedom in your country, all independent media have either been closed down or stopped from speaking out. this is the russia of today. are you defending that russia? i wrote this law and it's law on fakes, which says that you cannot spread untruthful information that hasn't been proven. that's it. so the rest is speculation. we don't bend for the position, but you cannot lie. you cannot fabricate information. if you can prove your point, go ahead. i wrote this law. so whatever west is trying to do from this,

it's not what it is, because what we don't want people to say is only one thing, is to lie because it's dangerous, especially now when we are, the whole world is in information war. you know, it's very important people are clear. 13,000 or 111,000 people have been arrested in your country for saying things like "stop the war". some have been arrested for even presenting a blank piece of paper to a tv screen. is that the russia you want to live in? i love my country, and i do believe that russia and russians have their right on truthful information, and i do not support such things as russian surrender because russians do not surrender ever. maria butina, sadly, we're out of time. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk.

hello. spring weather can often be erratic, and we've certainly seen that play out during the past few days. march, for a good part of the time, was dry and sunny. in fact, scotland and northern ireland, according to the met office, provisionally had the sunniest march on record. it was only on sunday we saw conditions like this in aberdeenshire. the warmest parts of the country 19 degrees. fast forward to thursday afternoon, and temperatures at times only 2 celsius as the snow showers came down fairly heavy. and they are continuing as we go into friday as well. the run of north—northeasterly winds all they way from the arctic continue. strongest towards the southeast as we start friday, linked into this area of low pressure developing across europe. and it's here we could see a further covering of snow. high pressure trying to build in, and with showers fading for most into the morning, we will see a widespread frost,

and across eastern areas, icy conditions to begin the day. for most of you, actually a sunny start to friday. the sleet and snow showers across eastern areas continue, particularly towards that southeast corner, and they will develop a bit more widely as we go through the day. but turning more to rain and sleet rather than pure snow. also at the same time, clouding over through the morning for the highlands and islands, that cloud will bring rain and hill snow across parts of scotland and eventually into northern ireland later in the day. temperatures still on the cold side, 6—10 degrees, feeling coldest towards the southeast corner, especially with the strongest of the winds. but improving conditions for the afternoon compared with the morning, more in the way of dry weather. now, as we go into the night, friday night into saturday, we will see outbreaks of rain and hill snow spread its way southwards into wales. that should keep the temperatures just above freezing away from the hills and mountains, but elsewhere, another very cold night with a widespread frost, and the risk of ice to start the weekend. but for many, actually quite a bright day. there will be a few showers close to the east, the main showers will be across wales, southwest england, a little bit wintry over the hills.

cloud will bubble up through the day to produce occasional slow—moving showers, but the vast majority will spend either the whole or the bulk of the day dry. temperature up a little bit and given the lighter winds and that strong sunshine overhead, it shouldn't feel too bad out there, especially compared with thursday. into sunday, another widespread frost to begin with, isolated showers developing through the day as cloud builds up, but another batch of thicker cloud, outbreaks of rain, stronger winds pushing towards the northwest of scotland, and they will bring slightly milder weather as we go into next week. that's how it's looking. i will see you again soon.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines. vladimir putin demands payment for gas in roubles — warning russia will stop supplying european countries it deems "unfriendly". translation: nobody sells us free of charge anything, - and we are not going to do charity either. all the existing contracts will be suspended. president biden tries to combat rising fuel prices at the pump — freeing up millions of gallons of crude oil. in ukraine, new attempts are made to deliver aid to thousands in mariupol after weeks of russian bombardment. in other news, pakistan's prime minister refuses to resign

ahead of a no—confidence vote this weekend.