in racing that i've ever done, so yeah, just every day we go welcome to this bbc news special programme. for the next 30 minutes, we'll be focusing on allegations that war crimes have been committed in ukraine. from the early days of the russian invasion, ukraine's president zelensky has accused russia of war crimes. that charge has been echoed by officials from the us and its allies as the conflict has progressed. more recently, horrifying images of mass graves, bodies of bound civilians shot at close range, and reports of alleged atrocities in areas on the outskirts of kyiv, have sparked renewed claims of war crimes, and calls forjustice from the us, the european union and human rights organisations.

our middle east editorjeremy bowen joins us now from kyiv. . night after night we have been watching your reports, you have been speaking to families, mothers, children, the elderly, it really is difficult to comprehend the horrors they have witnessed. yes. difficult to comprehend the horrors they have witnessed.— they have witnessed. yes, it is horrible- _ they have witnessed. yes, it is horrible. people _ they have witnessed. yes, it is horrible. people have - they have witnessed. yes, it is horrible. people have had - they have witnessed. yes, it is| horrible. people have had some terrible experience, there is no doubt that in some places, the russians, while they were there, i am talking about the ones who are in the wider district, that they i think presided over a rein of terror. i am think presided over a rein of terror. iam not think presided over a rein of terror. i am not a judge and jury, i can't say definitively if war crimeser with committed but the evidence is piling up and it looks in some cases extremely accuse say itry. in some cases extremely accuse say it . ., ., , ., , , itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us what ou itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us what you saw _ itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us

what you saw there. _ itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us what you saw there. yes, - itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us what you saw there. yes, that - itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us what you saw there. yes, that is l itry. you have been to kyiv, tell us| what you saw there. yes, that is an area of villages, _ what you saw there. yes, that is an area of villages, and _ what you saw there. yes, that is an area of villages, and a _ what you saw there. yes, that is an area of villages, and a small- what you saw there. yes, that is an area of villages, and a small town i area of villages, and a small town up area of villages, and a small town up to the north of here, and you know, normaltimes up to the north of here, and you know, normal times you get, people commute forjobs, but because of the way it was cut off by broken bridges and roads it took us five, six hours, to drive there. the area had been very isolated, and what was clear there, from speaking, doing multiple interview, theest in one particular village, was that the russians who were in control of that, when they were on the 14th march, under military pressure, from the ukrainians who were attacking them, they went from house to house, at about 9pm, and took out about 150 people out at gun point, and held them in the school, the village school for 2h hours, and those people, people of all age, old people, people of all age, old people, kids, were terrified and thought they might die. they were

threatened. some the russians were drunk, using sievians in that kind of situation, is against the, like thank is against the laws of war and there have been in other example as well, i have seen dead body, evidence of civilians being killed in cold blood, and then seeing the bodies after. stuff like that, so, there is, there is a lot out there, at the moment.— there is, there is a lot out there, at the moment. yes, as you say, we have seen those _ at the moment. yes, as you say, we have seen those reports, _ at the moment. yes, as you say, we have seen those reports, we - at the moment. yes, as you say, we have seen those reports, we have i have seen those reports, we have seen the image, the satellite images, right from the outset, the russians, the kremlin has pushed back, they have said it is fabricated, it is fake. i back, they have said it is fabricated, it is fake. i have never et come fabricated, it is fake. i have never yet come across _ fabricated, it is fake. i have never yet come across a _ fabricated, it is fake. i have never yet come across a government. fabricated, it is fake. i have never. yet come across a government who when accused, when its forces are accused of war crimes have thrown up their hand and said, you know guy, you are right, we did it. they always denight. now, the question is whether —— deny it. whether it is

the action of certain units or individual, orwhether the action of certain units or individual, or whether it is something systematic, i have reported on many war overs the years and there are always some kind of atrocities or war crimes, tied with with them. it seems to go, something which is inherent lisa vaj, war is a savage business, but the russian r i think it is in reyeernt you can say they have been in a different category, notjust recently. i saw what they did in grozny, the an talent of a break away russian region in the 90, i was there when they were hammering the city and killing a lot of civilians with artillery. i have seen it extensively in syria, an pose, but notjust extensively in syria, an pose, but not just there, extensively in syria, an pose, but notjust there, in smaller places and in the suburbs of damascus, done by the russian, that is the common thread that binds them, so, i think they have a lot of questions to answer, whether they will ever have

to actually answer them, is of course a different matter. we to actually answer them, is of course a different matter. we have a minute jeremy. _ course a different matter. we have a minutejeremy. i— course a different matter. we have a minute jeremy, i wanted _ course a different matter. we have a minute jeremy, i wanted to - course a different matter. we have a minute jeremy, i wanted to quickly l minutejeremy, i wanted to quickly ask you about this footage that the new york times has verified that the bbc has verified of ukrainian troops, mistreating russians, russian prisoners of war. yes. i heard there _ russian prisoners of war. yes. i heard there was _ russian prisoners of war. yes. i heard there was talk _ russian prisoners of war. yes. i heard there was talk that - russian prisoners of war. yes. i heard there was talk that these | heard there was talk that these videos were going around. i don't think it is surprising, i think particularly when you hear reports of what other sides are doing and when there is such a big injection of hatred into what is happening, i wouldn't be surprised by anything that i saw in these sort of circumstances, in wars, there are bad people, unfortunately quite often on every side. and, that is the kind of thing that happens. i think whey is important, is what the leaderships of the militaries that

are affected in this case, the ukrainians, what they do about it. do they investigate, do they, if necessary, hold up their hands, do they punish those responsible, if it subpoena proven they did it. or do theyjust brush it under the carpet? that is the test.— that is the test. jeremy, always aood to that is the test. jeremy, always good to talk _ that is the test. jeremy, always good to talk to _ that is the test. jeremy, always good to talk to you, _ that is the test. jeremy, always good to talk to you, thank- that is the test. jeremy, always good to talk to you, thank you | that is the test. jeremy, always i good to talk to you, thank you for joining us and all of your reporting from ukraine. joining us and all of your reporting from ukraine. the so called information war has been evident in the conflict. russia has tried to rubbish allegations from ukraine that it targeted civilians on purpose. it's even accused ukraine of mocking up and staging so—called atrocities. marianna spring is the bbc�*s specialist disinformation reporter and host of the war on truth podcast. this week, horrific allegations of war crimes and attacks on ukrainian cities have shocked the world. and there has been plenty of evidence. photos, videos, testimony. but, despite that, russia has tried to deny its involvement, twisting words and pictures. so let's take a look

at the evidence. starting in bucha. russian forces say it withdrew from bucha on the 30th of march. ukraine says that happened in the early hours of the 31st of march. and as russia has moved from kyiv and headed towards the east of ukraine, there have been plenty of videos and images showing the devastation left in bucha, including footage like this, where you can see bodies lying on the roadside in the town. here is what president zelensky had to say when he visited the town. translation: russian soldiers treat people worse than animals. - there is real genocide, what you have seen here today. we know thousands of people were tortured and killed, with cut—off hands and legs. it is very difficult to talk when you see what they have done here. russia has claimed the footage shows fake dead bodies and that it has been staged. and these are comments that have been repeated by its foreign minister. translation: recently, - another fake attack was carried out in the city of bucha in the kyiv

region after the russian service men left the area in accordance with the agreements reached. a fake attack was staged at there a few days later and has been fomented on all channels and social media by ukrainian representatives and their western patrons. let's unpick what actually happened. a satellite image from the 19th of march shows bodies lying on the roadside in bucha and, if you match up that image to the video that shows bodies on the roadside in the town, you can see they are lying in almost exactly the same locations. the playbook that russia has used to deny the deaths have happened in bucha is one it has employed in the city of mariupol. mariupol has found itself at the heart of a lot of the fighting and an information war. there have been several horrific attacks, including on a maternity hospital. all of this is part of a playbook that russia is using to deny what is happening to people right now in ukraine and, as images and evidence of violence becomes increasingly horrifying, so the denial becomes more extreme.

we can expect this information war to intensify in the weeks to come. marianna spring, host of the war on truth podcast. mykolaiv, near ukraine s black sea shoreline, has been a key battleground. ukrainian forces have held off russian troops, delaying a potential attack on odesa. but the city has been under near—constant bombardment for days. mykolaiv mayor oleksandr senkevych joins me now. thank you forjoining us now, on the programme, iwant thank you forjoining us now, on the programme, i want to get a sense of what is happening where you are, is the russian bombardment continuing? today, we have a kind of silent day, yesterday, at night we have also

bombardments of the city. almost every day starting from february 24th we get every day bombardment, several days we had about three in a row. like temperature day before yesterday, we have, we had bombardment at 7.00am and 4pm and then in the night—time. ten people died. civilian people. and about 60 were injured. 50. died. civilian people. and about 60 were injured-— were injured. so, we are also heafina were injured. so, we are also hearing reports _ were injured. so, we are also hearing reports that - were injured. so, we are also hearing reports that russians were injured. so, we are also - hearing reports that russians are preparing for some kind of assault. are you prepared for that yourself snow are you prepared for that yourself sno ., , ., , snow for sure, we are preparing the ci for snow for sure, we are preparing the city for assault. _ snow for sure, we are preparing the city for assault. we _ snow for sure, we are preparing the city for assault. we are _ snow for sure, we are preparing the city for assault. we are digging - city for assault. we are digging trenches, we are co—operating with militaries and army, and we do all they needed, all they need for

assault and more ever, we are grouping also, to attack their troops, who are coming from crimea. we have seen horrifying images emerge from places like bucha, we know that mariupol is besieged and people are starving, they don't have heating, they don't have any kind of water. what is the situation there, in where you are? for water. what is the situation there, in where you are?— water. what is the situation there, in where you are? for now, we have 0 en in where you are? for now, we have open roads — in where you are? for now, we have open roads to _ in where you are? for now, we have open roads to big — in where you are? for now, we have open roads to big cities, _ in where you are? for now, we have open roads to big cities, like - open roads to big cities, like odesa. from there, those directions we are getting medicine and food and everything we need. we are collecting long—term storage products, and creating touchable storage for the city, in case of assault, and for now, all the services in the city are working

properly, mine electricity, water, heating, pandemic gas. find properly, mine electricity, water, heating, pandemic gas. and there have been civilians _ heating, pandemic gas. and there have been civilians who _ heating, pandemic gas. and there have been civilians who have - heating, pandemic gas. and there have been civilians who have left. have been civilians who have left the area, is it still safe to do so? yes, it is safe to leave the city, we can't, count about 35, 40% of people left the city. we don't have the exact number of people who left the exact number of people who left the city but we count this amount by garbage collection and water usage, so we do, what we do about the city, all our buss that were used in public transportation are now working now as evacuation buses, for example, let us say for today, 720 people left the city. find example, let us say for today, 720 people left the city.— people left the city. and we have seen residential— people left the city. and we have seen residential airias, _ people left the city. and we have | seen residential airias, hospitals, targeted in other towns and cities, tell us about the kind of things that are being bombed a the moment when there is bombardment. let’s

that are being bombed a the moment when there is bombardment. let's say russians make — when there is bombardment. let's say russians make those, _ when there is bombardment. let's say russians make those, their— when there is bombardment. let's say russians make those, their bombard. | russians make those, their bombard. in direction, i won't say they launch missiles to their exact or special buildings or something, they just bombard our city, let's say kinder guard —— kinkeder guilten, schooling, hospital, residential area, we have 300 buildings ruined partially. 50. area, we have 300 buildings ruined artiall . ,, ., area, we have 300 buildings ruined artiall . i” . . partially. so, you are saying that some residential _ partially. so, you are saying that some residential areas _ partially. so, you are saying that some residential areas have - partially. so, you are saying that| some residential areas have been partially. so, you are saying that - some residential areas have been hit but it has been sort of random and indiscriminate?— but it has been sort of random and indiscriminate?- and, - but it has been sort of random and indiscriminate? right. and, in the eriod, in indiscriminate? right. and, in the period. in the _ indiscriminate? right. and, in the period, in the last _ indiscriminate? right. and, in the period, in the last sort _ indiscriminate? right. and, in the period, in the last sort of - indiscriminate? right. and, in the period, in the last sort of five - indiscriminate? right. and, in the period, in the last sort of five or. period, in the last sort of five or six weeks of this war, do you know roughly how many civilians have been killed? it roughly how many civilians have been killed? , , , .,

killed? it is, the number is about 60 civilians _ killed? it is, the number is about 60 civilians died _ killed? it is, the number is about 60 civilians died and _ killed? it is, the number is about 60 civilians died and about - killed? it is, the number is about 60 civilians died and about 450 l 60 civilians died and about a50 injured. 0k, injured. ok, we will have to leave it there, thank you very much. evgeny popov is a united russia mp and state tv talk show host. thank you sir forjoining thank you sirforjoining us here on the programme. russian forces we have seen have now retreated from kyiv, the capital of ukraine. we have seen destruction of russian military hard wear, we have heard stories of demoralised troopings we have seen the main goal of russian ambition was to really diminish, to concentrate on the east now, rather than the whole country, would you say what you are seeing now in ukraine, is a success? i’m say what you are seeing now in ukraine, is a success?- say what you are seeing now in ukraine, is a success? i'm not going to tell ou ukraine, is a success? i'm not going to tell you about _ ukraine, is a success? i'm not going to tell you about success, _ ukraine, is a success? i'm not going to tell you about success, or -

ukraine, is a success? i'm not going to tell you about success, or about | to tell you about success, or about victory or about losing, but what i am hearing right now, it's hypocrisy and the huge lie. first of all we don't bomb civilians, we have high profile modern missiles which we use in exact targets. second one, bucha was an operation which was made by, i am sure that, by your government, ijy i am sure that, by your government, by ukrainian government, by un intelligence, and left bucha and you know it on march 31st. but you found some bodies, dead bodies on april 4th what was, what can be with those

bodies, during four or five days. 4th what was, what can be with those bodies, during four orfive days. so bodies, during four or five days. so you, you say those bodies were placed there, is that correct, that is what we are hearing from the russian side, that those bodies were put there, in bucha. i am russian side, that those bodies were put there, in bucha.— put there, in bucha. i am 'ust t in: put there, in bucha. i am 'ust trying to fl put there, in bucha. i am 'ust trying to tori put there, in bucha. i am 'ust trying to tell you i put there, in bucha. i am 'ust trying to tell you that i put there, in bucha. i am 'ust trying to tell you that we h put there, in bucha. i amjust| trying to tell you that we must put there, in bucha. i amjust - trying to tell you that we must go into the the investigation, what was happened in bucha. it is a massacre, but i am sure, and i know, that our brave soldiers never ever killed sniffians in ukraine. we only attack and bomb, only military objects. 50 and bomb, only military objects. so what about hospitals. infrastructure.- what about hospitals. infrastructure. ~ ., ., ., , infrastructure. what about hospitals no hospitais- _ infrastructure. what about hospitals no hospitals. no _ infrastructure. what about hospitals no hospitals. no hospitals. - infrastructure. what about hospitals no hospitals. no hospitals. we - infrastructure. what about hospitals l no hospitals. no hospitals. we bomb. no hospitals. no hospitals. we bomb. no schools. non—cairned gardens. the no schools. non-cairned gardens. the materni no schools. non—cairned gardens. the maternity hospital in mariupol. no schools. non-cairned gardens. the maternity hospital in mariupol. ha! - maternity hospital in mariupol. ha! you maternity hospital in mariupol. hal you remember, you bbc have shown

some goal which was on a maternity hospital, but you didn't show your story after you... they are in mariupol and she knows the truth. it was another false operation. let mariupol and she knows the truth. it was another false operation.- was another false operation. let us talk about- -- _ was another false operation. let us talk about... we _ was another false operation. let us talk about... we didn't _ was another false operation. let us talk about... we didn't bomb. - was another false operation. let us talk about... we didn't bomb. i - was another false operation. let us| talk about... we didn't bomb. ijust talk about... we didn't bomb. i 'ust want to talk about. .. we didn't bomb. i 'ust want to talk— talk about... we didn't bomb. i 'ust want to talk about i talk about... we didn't bomb. i 'ust want to talk about bucha, �* talk about... we didn't bomb. ijust want to talk about bucha, because l want to talk about bucha, because you talk about russian troops leaving the area on march 31st, and then the ukrainians alongside journalists went in several days later and you said the bodies were placed there, it was as false flag flag. placed there, it was as false flag flan. , �* placed there, it was as false flag fla.. , �* ,. , placed there, it was as false flag flan, �* ., placed there, it was as false flag fla., �* ., you placed there, it was as false flag flag-_ you said i placed there, it was as false flag flag._ you said it | flag. didn't say that. you said it was a false _ flag. didn't say that. you said it was a false flag _ flag. didn't say that. you said it was a false flag operation. - flag. didn't say that. you said it was a false flag operation. fair| was a false flag operation. fair enough you said it was false flag operation, we have seen satellite images from march 16, i7, 18, we operation, we have seen satellite images from march 16, 17, 18, we are going to show our viewers this satellite image which shows the

bodies in exactly the same place as when the ukrainian... it bodies in exactly the same place as when the ukrainian. . ._ bodies in exactly the same place as when the ukrainian... if you give me the possibility _ when the ukrainian... if you give me the possibility to _ when the ukrainian... if you give me the possibility to answer _ when the ukrainian... if you give me the possibility to answer i _ when the ukrainian... if you give me the possibility to answer i will - the possibility to answer i will answer you, of course, the possibility to answer i will answeryou, of course, but, the possibility to answer i will answer you, of course, but, you have seen satellite images by private company, right? it didn't, satellite images by pentagon or your military, orany images by pentagon or your military, or any nato organisation. it was private company, satellite images, but you have heard china, you have heard even pentagon, didn't confirm that russia did it. right? in heard even pentagon, didn't confirm that russia did it. right?— that russia did it. right? in fact, if ou that russia did it. right? in fact, if you listen _ that russia did it. right? in fact, if you listen to _ that russia did it. right? in fact, if you listen to what _ that russia did it. right? in fact, if you listen to what china - that russia did it. right? in fact, if you listen to what china has i if you listen to what china has said, china has described the scenes... said, china has described the scenes- - -_ said, china has described the scenes... ~ , ., ., . scenes... we need investigation. we need investigation. _ scenes... we need investigation. we need investigation. as _ scenes... we need investigation. we need investigation. as disturbing, i need investigation. as disturbing, india has called _ need investigation. as disturbing, india has called the _ need investigation. as disturbing, india has called the scenes - india has called the scenes disturbing and asked for an international probe. but

disturbing and asked for an international probe. but listen, we left this area _ international probe. but listen, we left this area on _ international probe. but listen, we left this area on march _ international probe. but listen, we left this area on march 31st. - international probe. but listen, we left this area on march 31st. but i left this area on march 31st. but you found some bodies on april 3rd. what was between those two dates, answer me. just answer me. it was i just want... answer me. just answer me. it was i just want- -- it — answer me. just answer me. it was i just want... it was _ answer me. just answer me. it was i just want... it was a _ answer me. just answer me. it was i just want... it was a police - just want... it was a police operation. _ just want... it was a police operation, it _ just want... it was a police operation, it was - just want... it was a police operation, it was police i just want... it was a police i operation, it was police operation, by national guard of ukraine. i am 'ust auoin by national guard of ukraine. i am just going to- -- — by national guard of ukraine. i am just going to... we _ by national guard of ukraine. i am just going to... we are _ by national guard of ukraine. i am just going to... we are short on time, so ijust want to say, our journalists, bbcjournalists you may accuse governments you may say others intelligence agencieser were behind these false flag operations but our journalists went behind these false flag operations but ourjournalists went in, you know, and saw these things? fin but ourjournalists went in, you know, and saw these things? on what date? on what — know, and saw these things? on what date? on what date? _ know, and saw these things? on what date? on what date? they _ know, and saw these things? on what date? on what date? they speak i know, and saw these things? on what date? on what date? they speak to i date? on what date? they speak to eo - le date? on what date? they speak to people with — date? on what date? they speak to people with who? _ date? on what date? they speak to people with who? to _ date? on what date? they speak to people with who? to residents i date? on what date? they speak to people with who? to residents of. date? on what date? they speak to i people with who? to residents of the area. who have _ people with who? to residents of the area. who have lost _ people with who? to residents of the area. who have lost families. i people with who? to residents of the area. who have lost families. with i area. who have lost families. with relative, area. who have lost families. with relative. with _ area. who have lost families. with relative, with family. _

area. who have lost families. tn relative, with family. no, of area. who have lost families. ii�*u relative, with family. no, of course no, you don't have any names, you don't have any relatives, you don't have any proof stories, and you are only trying to lecture us, independent company, —— country, with brave soldier, brave people and you are trying to blame us on everything, but you have going to pay price for it. of course, right now, on your guest station —— gas stationing, on you electricity bill and everything, but we are going to do what we very, what, what we are going to do, is we are going to continue our operation, and we are going to continue negotiations with ukraine. ~ ., , , , . ~ ukraine. ukraine is pushing back thou~h, ukraine. ukraine is pushing back though. you _ ukraine. ukraine is pushing back though, you know, _ ukraine. ukraine is pushing back though, you know, russia i ukraine. ukraine is pushing back though, you know, russia did i ukraine. ukraine is pushing back| though, you know, russia did not think that ukraine would stand so united and be able to fight back the way it has. itruth?

united and be able to fight back the wa it has. ~ , ., i. ~' united and be able to fight back the wa it has. ~ , ., ,, ~' . way it has. why do you think we are not united? — way it has. why do you think we are not united? russian _ way it has. why do you think we are not united? russian people i way it has. why do you think we are not united? russian people are i not united? russian people are united and you are doing this, you help us to unite. you, your sanctions your stupid sanction, sorry for that, is doing us more united than ever, and we are going to fight, for our right, for our rights, for our country, we are going fight for the russian language, russian people in ukraine, we are going to fight against nazis who killed and tortured to death our soldiers, our prisoners of war. ukrainian soldiers who tortured our soldiers. who killed them. prisoner of war, they are going to pay a high price for this, we are going to find them. we are going to have to leave it there. thank you forjoining us here on the programme.

i'm joined now by our russia editor steve rosenberg. you were listening there to mr popov there and speaking the kremlin line. yes, well, several words come to mind, having listened to that, here are two of them. alternative reality. what russia is doing right now is what it has done for year, whenever it has been accused of anything, whether it has been accused of the salisbury poisoning or the shooting down the malaysia airlines over eastern ukraine in 2014 or meddling in us elections or poisoning the russian opposition leader, and that is to deny everything every time and to point the finger of blame back, to point the finger of blame back, to accuse the accuser and that is happening again again here in ukraine. what russia is doing is creating an alternative reality.

what russia says is, there is no war going on, in ukraine. there is this special military operation, russia is presenting itself not as the aggressor, but says it is defending russian speakerser. it is liberating ukrainians from the yolk of neo—nazi, turning everything upside down, creating this false reality, i think that what we just heard. indeed, and the thing is, that what we are seeing is this war played out in real time, we are seeing is this war played out in realtime, we we are seeing is this war played out in real time, we are seeing these images come out of bucha. we are seeing hospitals and civilian areas targeted, so when we hear something like what we did from mr popov saying we are not targeting civilian, the thing is, are the russian people even able to access the kind of information you and i have access to? it the kind of information you and i have access to?— have access to? it is a good question — have access to? it is a good question and _ have access to? it is a good question and the _ have access to? it is a good question and the reality i have access to? it is a good question and the reality is, | have access to? it is a good i question and the reality is, that over the last six weeks or so for,

the kremlin has really established dominance now, over the information space here. you know, virtually all, i would say all independent russian news sources have been blocked or shut down. and so it is the kremlin's voice which dominates, a lot of people watch television, television is the key tool for shaping public opinion. when you switch on russian television rwhich ever channel, the picture of events that you hear and see is very different from that which people see in the west. as i say, this operation is being presented to the russian public as something which is just something which is necessary, and the russian soldiers are being presented heroes who are bravely fighting for, the good of the motherland, i read an extraordinary piece in one russian newspaper yesterday, which kept talking about the russians defending their motherland, defending their motherland, defending their motherland, but the reality is of

course that it was russia that attacked ukraine.— course that it was russia that attacked ukraine. indeed, steve, thank ou attacked ukraine. indeed, steve, thank you so _ attacked ukraine. indeed, steve, thank you so much _ attacked ukraine. indeed, steve, thank you so much for— attacked ukraine. indeed, steve, thank you so much for your i attacked ukraine. indeed, steve, i thank you so much for your analysis and joining us. i'm joined now by richard goldstone. he's former chief prosecutor of the united nations international criminal tribunals for the former yugoslavia and rwanda. he prosecuted a number of key war crimes suspects including former bosnian serb commander ratko mladic and former president radovan karadzic. thank you sir forjoining thank you sirforjoining us on the programme. we were speaking there, to someone who is representing the kremlin, and he obviously denied everything that has been taking place in ukraine, regardless of what he says though, from what you are seeing, is what the images of what we seeing tantamount to war crimes. absolutely, it seems to me the evidence points in one direction only, and the, the version being put out and the allegations being put

out and the allegations being put out from moss coy seem to me to be risible and they remind me in the situation in the bosnian serb war when we found mass graves, with the bodies of bosnian men and boys, with their hands tied behind their back and a bullet wound in their head. the serb version this was a grave from some previous war decades before, the medicalforensic evidence is crucial and i have no doubt that that the the medical evidence will be able to establish with pretty fair accuracy, the date on which the people whose bodies have been found in bucha and other places were killed, and that evidence, i believe, will give the lie to the denials being put out through the kremlin. so lie to the denials being put out through the kremlin.— lie to the denials being put out through the kremlin. so they are den in: through the kremlin. so they are denying it- _ through the kremlin. so they are denying it- how— through the kremlin. so they are denying it. how do _ through the kremlin. so they are denying it. how do you _ through the kremlin. so they are denying it. how do you hold i through the kremlin. so they are| denying it. how do you hold those responsible. how do you prosecute them, how do you bring them to justice?

them, how do you bring them to 'ustice? ~ �* . . them, how do you bring them to 'ustice? ~ �*, ., , justice? well it's a complicated situation, because _ justice? well it's a complicated situation, because russia i justice? well it's a complicated situation, because russia is i justice? well it's a complicated| situation, because russia is not justice? well it's a complicated i situation, because russia is not a party to any relevant international criminal court, and to arrest anybody charged by the international criminal court, orany anybody charged by the international criminal court, or any other court that might be set up by the united nations to charge putin with aggression, is difficult, but we were in the same position with milosevic and car ditch, they were pretty safe, in belgrade and the last thing president milosevic thought was there would be a revolution and his successors would put him on a plane and send them to trial in the hague. one has to go ahead on the assumption that at some point the future and justice has a long memory, some point in the future these people will be brought to justice. these people will be brought to 'ustice. �* ., ., ., justice. and we have about a minute left but i justice. and we have about a minute left but ijust — justice. and we have about a minute left but i just wanted _ justice. and we have about a minute left but i just wanted to _ justice. and we have about a minute left but ijust wanted to say, i justice. and we have about a minute left but ijust wanted to say, we i left but ijust wanted to say, we are hearing this word genocide being used a fair bit by political leaders, from your experience and

your understanding of the phrase, is that what we are seeing in ukraine? i don't believe so. there certainly may be evidence that will emerge in the coming days and weeks and months of, that, that will establish genocide but i have little doubt that the evidence to date is not sufficient, genocide is a massive crime and one has to prove the special intent to kill off a whole or part of a people, and what we are seeing here, is consistent with other conclusions.— seeing here, is consistent with other conclusions. thank you for 'oinin: us other conclusions. thank you for joining us here _ other conclusions. thank you for joining us here on _ other conclusions. thank you for joining us here on the _ other conclusions. thank you for i joining us here on the programme. we will be back with the headlines but that brings to an end our special here you can get in touch with me on twitter. which will be backin with me on twitter. which will be back in the next few minutes with all the latest headlines.

there is bee news. the headlines at two. the government puts nuclear power at the heart of its new energy strategy, it wants eight new react fors in the uk approved by the end of the decade. this fors in the uk approved by the end of the decade-— of the decade. this is about tacklin: of the decade. this is about tackling some _ of the decade. this is about tackling some of _ of the decade. this is about tackling some of the i of the decade. this is about i tackling some of the mistakes of of the decade. this is about - tackling some of the mistakes of the past and making sure that we are set well for the future, we are no longer subject to, we will never again subject to the vagaries of the global oil, gas price. what we've been calling for for a number of years now is turbo—charging on renewables including on showman turbines, fast forwarding nuclear, that should have happened over the last decade and it

hasn't happened. there has been a real failure there. heading to safety — the ukrainians fleeing west as russia's military offensive in the east intensifies nato members discuss sending more anti—tank weapons and air defence systems to ukraine. more pressure on the chancellor rishi sunak — as his wife confirms she has non—domiciled status — which means she doesn't have to pay uk tax on income earned outside britain. oh, wow! and the day the dinosaurs died — scientists say they've found fossils of creatures killed when a giant asteroid hit the earth and led to the mass extinction

good afternoon and welcome to bbc news.