hello. i'm shaun ley. welcome to our weekly round table discussion, between bbc specialists and the foreign correspondents who write, blog and broadcast to audiences in their home countries from the dateline:london. with us this week, lateka bourke, a columnist for two australian newspapapers — the age in melbourne, and the sydney morning herald. justin rowlatt is the bbc�*s climate editor. jeffrey kofmann, who's been both a foreign correspondent and a news anchor for canadian and us broadcasters.

first of all, lovely to have the three of you in the studio. i keep saying it every week but it makes such a difference. "socialism", according to a british politician of the last century, "is the language of priorities". perhaps it's more accurate to say that politics in a democracy is about choosing between priorities. what happens, though, when those priorities conflict? no—one accused of war crimes in ukraine today will face justice any time soon. so ukraine's allies are punishing russia with further sanctions. some want to stop buying russian gas altogether. but that could mean shortages, bills higher than they are already, rationing. substitution means more carbon extraction just as the un is warning that the world is way off the greening of energy needed to prevent the climate perhaps becoming for us intolerable. the response of borisjohnson�*s government has been an energy security strategy. justin, sustainability, affordability, security of supply.

what does this strategy tell is about where the government's priorities lie? it about where the government's priorities lie?— priorities lie? it is claiming it addresses — priorities lie? it is claiming it addresses all _ priorities lie? it is claiming it addresses all of _ priorities lie? it is claiming it addresses all of that. - priorities lie? it is claiming it addresses all of that. the - priorities lie? it is claiming it - addresses all of that. the consensus has been that it has not done any of them particularly well. we are talking about nuclear power, we are already rolling out offshore wind rapidly but a more rapid roll—out of offshore wind, tiny changes to onshore wind and maybe more solar and opening up new licensing for north sea gas and oil. what there wasn't is a big effort to tackle and reduce demand, maybe insulating homes. greens were very upset about that. it takes a long time to build nuclear power, takes four years to build wind turbines in the north sea. it would be much quickerfor onshore wind turbines and that would address energy security more quickly and arguably reduce bills more quickly. any sense, it had those

three priorities at their heart but didn't meet any of them. juggling them all- -- _ didn't meet any of them. juggling them all... boris _ didn't meet any of them. juggling them all... boris johnson - didn't meet any of them. juggling them all... boris johnson is - didn't meet any of them. juggling | them all... boris johnson is taking them all... borisjohnson is taking but it_ them all... borisjohnson is taking but it might — them all... borisjohnson is taking but it might the _ them all... borisjohnson is taking but it might the people _ them all... borisjohnson is taking but it might the people of- them all... borisjohnson is taking but it might the people of the - but it might the people of the united — but it might the people of the united kingdom, _ but it might the people of the united kingdom, take - but it might the people of the united kingdom, take a - but it might the people of the united kingdom, take a coldl but it might the people of the - united kingdom, take a cold shower for ten _ united kingdom, take a cold shower for ten years — united kingdom, take a cold shower for ten years it _ united kingdom, take a cold shower for ten years. it is _ united kingdom, take a cold shower for ten years. it is really— for ten years. it is really shocking _ for ten years. it is really shocking my— for ten years. it is really shocking. my own - for ten years. it is reallyl shocking. my own energy for ten years. it is really- shocking. my own energy bills for ten years. it is really— shocking. my own energy bills have .one shocking. my own energy bills have gone up _ shocking. my own energy bills have gone up over— shocking. my own energy bills have gone up over 100%_ shocking. my own energy bills have gone up over 100% and _ shocking. my own energy bills have gone up over 100% and i'm - shocking. my own energy bills have gone up over 100% and i'm sure . shocking. my own energy bills have gone up over 100% and i'm sure iti shocking. my own energy bills havel gone up over 100% and i'm sure it is a pretty— gone up over 100% and i'm sure it is a pretty common _ gone up over 100% and i'm sure it is a pretty common story— gone up over 100% and i'm sure it is a pretty common story the _ gone up over 100% and i'm sure it is a pretty common story the nation. . gone up over 100% and i'm sure it is. a pretty common story the nation. my heart _ a pretty common story the nation. my heart breaks _ a pretty common story the nation. my heart breaks to — a pretty common story the nation. my heart breaks to think— a pretty common story the nation. my heart breaks to think of— a pretty common story the nation. my heart breaks to think of people - heart breaks to think of people living _ heart breaks to think of people living on— heart breaks to think of people living on the _ heart breaks to think of people living on the margins _ heart breaks to think of people living on the margins and - heart breaks to think of people living on the margins and what| heart breaks to think of people i living on the margins and what it heart breaks to think of people - living on the margins and what it is doing _ living on the margins and what it is doing to _ living on the margins and what it is doing to them _ living on the margins and what it is doing to them let _ living on the margins and what it is doing to them let alone _ living on the margins and what it isi doing to them let alone businesses that's— doing to them let alone businesses that's survive — doing to them let alone businesses that's survive on _ doing to them let alone businesses that's survive on the _ doing to them let alone businesses that's survive on the margins - doing to them let alone businesses that's survive on the margins with. that's survive on the margins with vast factories _ that's survive on the margins with vast factories or— that's survive on the margins with vast factories or restaurants - that's survive on the margins with vast factories or restaurants thatl vast factories or restaurants that need _ vast factories or restaurants that need to— vast factories or restaurants that need to he — vast factories or restaurants that need to be heated _ vast factories or restaurants that need to be heated at _ vast factories or restaurants that need to be heated at these - vast factories or restaurants that i need to be heated at these prices. what _ need to be heated at these prices. what is _ need to be heated at these prices. what is it— need to be heated at these prices. what is it doing _ need to be heated at these prices. what is it doing for— need to be heated at these prices. what is it doing for them? - need to be heated at these prices. what is it doing for them? how. need to be heated at these prices. | what is it doing for them? how are they going — what is it doing for them? how are they going to — what is it doing for them? how are they going to survive? _ what is it doing for them? how are they going to survive? i5 _ what is it doing for them? how are they going to survive? is it- what is it doing for them? how are they going to survive?— they going to survive? is it so surprising _ they going to survive? is it so surprising for _ they going to survive? is it so surprising for an _ they going to survive? is it so surprising for an elected - they going to survive? is it so - surprising for an elected politician not only to say well you have to pay more but he will have to use less. it is not a vote winning message. but the request from green groups and environmentalists was to subsidise people to make homes more

efficient, easierand subsidise people to make homes more efficient, easier and cheaper, subsidise people to make homes more efficient, easierand cheaper, but there are significant cost hurdles to putting in insulation. and given historic energy prices, for many people it has been a tough decision to make because it takes many years to make because it takes many years to pay off. current energy prices the arguments are more difficult but thatis the arguments are more difficult but that is the argument, reduced demand and a decrease dependency on foreign fuel. in and a decrease dependency on foreign fuel. ., , ., , ., , fuel. in europe has done this, the united kingdom _ fuel. in europe has done this, the united kingdom has— fuel. in europe has done this, the united kingdom has by _ fuel. in europe has done this, the united kingdom has by some - fuel. in europe has done this, the - united kingdom has by some standards in western— united kingdom has by some standards in western europe _ united kingdom has by some standards in western europe at _ united kingdom has by some standards in western europe at least _ united kingdom has by some standards in western europe at least the - united kingdom has by some standards in western europe at least the least - in western europe at least the least insulated _ in western europe at least the least insulated home _ in western europe at least the least insulated home stock— in western europe at least the least insulated home stock in— in western europe at least the least insulated home stock in the - in western europe at least the least insulated home stock in the region. | insulated home stock in the region. we like _ insulated home stock in the region. we like drafts— insulated home stock in the region. we like drafts and _ insulated home stock in the region. we like drafts and we _ insulated home stock in the region. we like drafts and we all— insulated home stock in the region. we like drafts and we all know - insulated home stock in the region. | we like drafts and we all know that! those _ we like drafts and we all know that! those ioveiy — we like drafts and we all know that! those lovely old _ we like drafts and we all know that! those lovely old georgian _ we like drafts and we all know that! those lovely old georgian homes. . we like drafts and we all know that! . those lovely old georgian homes. you sa britain those lovely old georgian homes. you say britain is — those lovely old georgian homes. say britain is the draft taste and i have never been able to pin that down, what it actually means. australia has experienced energy politics and the rough—and—tumble at the last election when it looked

like the liberal national coalition was going to lose yet it won and it appeared to wind because what labour were saying on energy the voters didn't like. can you remind us of that and well that still play this time? ., ., , . ., time? not even the last election, the last decade _ time? not even the last election, the last decade in _ time? not even the last election, the last decade in australia - time? not even the last election, the last decade in australia all. time? not even the last election, | the last decade in australia all the elections — the last decade in australia all the elections have been written by climate — elections have been written by climate change politics orthodoxy and i_ climate change politics orthodoxy and i don't expect that will change too much — and i don't expect that will change too much of this election. but what we had _ too much of this election. but what we had for— too much of this election. but what we had for the first time as a bipartisan _ we had for the first time as a bipartisan commitment for net zero by 2050, _ bipartisan commitment for net zero by 2050, the incumbent centre—right government led by scott morrison was reiuctantiy _ government led by scott morrison was reluctantly dragged kicking and screaming to that position by boris johnson _ screaming to that position by boris johnson that cop26 in glasgow. we have that _ johnson that cop26 in glasgow. we have that bipartisan ship but don't we don't _ have that bipartisan ship but don't we don't necessarily have is the consensus — we don't necessarily have is the consensus on how to get there. along comes— consensus on how to get there. along comes what— consensus on how to get there. along comes what is happening in ukraine and russia — comes what is happening in ukraine and russia are really making people think. _ and russia are really making people think, maybe we didn't go all in straightaway and maybe that is a

good _ straightaway and maybe that is a good thing for us. because if you look carefully at what a lot of the peopie _ look carefully at what a lot of the people who are maligned sometimes or perhaps— people who are maligned sometimes or perhaps more accurately called ciimate — perhaps more accurately called climate deniers in australia, many within— climate deniers in australia, many within the — climate deniers in australia, many within the current government, they have always — within the current government, they have always said, we want to transition _ have always said, we want to transition but with technology, not by taxes _ transition but with technology, not by taxes or— transition but with technology, not by taxes or trading schemes. now that seems to be coming into fruition _ that seems to be coming into fruition. to answer your question we will have _ fruition. to answer your question we will have some climate politics running — will have some climate politics running through this next election but what — running through this next election but what we will see is that morphing into an adaptation to climate — morphing into an adaptation to climate change which is already very much _ climate change which is already very much alive _ climate change which is already very much alive in australia and also the cost of— much alive in australia and also the cost of living. much alive in australia and also the cost of living-— cost of living. does it mean less extraction? _ cost of living. does it mean less extraction? will _ cost of living. does it mean less extraction? will that _ cost of living. does it mean less extraction? will that be - cost of living. does it mean less extraction? will that be feasible for australian politicians because it is suggesting that is what labour were acknowledging would have to happen at the last election and paid a big electoral price? the happen at the last election and paid a big electoral price?— a big electoral price? the current labour leader _ a big electoral price? the current labour leader has _ a big electoral price? the current labour leader has come - a big electoral price? the current labour leader has come out - a big electoral price? the current. labour leader has come out strongly saying that coal will be a part of australia's future. does that mean we are going to be doing what some

in the current government would like, which is funding with taxpayer dollars new coal—fired power stations? i don't think so, but you do see the sides coming to the table any more centrist way than they have any more centrist way than they have any decade. any more centrist way than they have an decade. , any more centrist way than they have any decade-— any decade. there is such a paradox because you — any decade. there is such a paradox because you have _ any decade. there is such a paradox because you have these _ any decade. there is such a paradox because you have these terrible - because you have these terrible floods _ because you have these terrible floods and before that the incredible bushfires. australia is a barometer— incredible bushfires. australia is a barometer of climate change, one of the countries most affected at the moment, — the countries most affected at the moment, and yet there doesn't seem to be _ moment, and yet there doesn't seem to be a _ moment, and yet there doesn't seem to be a huge — moment, and yet there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of energy. you say there _ to be a huge amount of energy. you say there is— to be a huge amount of energy. you say there is a — to be a huge amount of energy. you say there is a consensus but they are cutting — say there is a consensus but they are cutting the money spent on the transition _ are cutting the money spent on the transition at the moment. i are cutting the money spent on the transition at the moment.- transition at the moment. i think it is very difficult _ transition at the moment. i think it is very difficult for _ transition at the moment. i think it is very difficult for people - transition at the moment. i think it is very difficult for people outside i is very difficult for people outside australia to understand what a big deal it is, to have a conservative government that has been ripped apart, changing prime ministers more time is now then i can remember over this very issue. to have a conservative prime minister able to stand up and say, we are going to

net zero by 2050, and he is still in thejob in net zero by 2050, and he is still in the job in contesting this election, thatis the job in contesting this election, that is huge for australia. iltrui’ith the job in contesting this election, that is huge for australia.- that is huge for australia. with all these pressures _ that is huge for australia. with all these pressures in _ that is huge for australia. with all these pressures in the _ that is huge for australia. with all these pressures in the energy - these pressures in the energy security strategy from the uk, the general election in the next month in australia, where does this leave our ambitions, the stated global ambition for mitigating the effects of climate change and trying to prevent the very worst of it? it is prevent the very worst of it? it is so interesting — prevent the very worst of it? it 3 so interesting because you hinted at it in the introduction. there was a un publication, the ipcc published their report on mitigation and tackling climate change at the beginning of this week and what is interesting, it said we need to transition away from fossil fuels as quickly as we can. what is interesting about the reports and often people don't recognise, these are signed up by the governments of

the world. they are written by scientists and then there is a couple of weeks where the government can scientists get together and move through the words and strike out some stuff and maybe what are things down but at the end of the day those conclusions were signed up by saudi arabia, australia, everybody. so this week we saw consensus, world consensus that this is a really serious problem and we are heading for really serious difficulties unless we urgently accelerate the decarbonisation of the world economy. not individual economies, but at the evidential basis you don't see the action we need. i don't see the action we need. i would add two points. one is that in australia _ would add two points. one is that in australia you will hear the refrain, and i'm _ australia you will hear the refrain, and i'm not— australia you will hear the refrain, and i'm not saying i agree with this but it— and i'm not saying i agree with this but it is— and i'm not saying i agree with this but it is a _ and i'm not saying i agree with this but it is a persuasive argument, it is no _ but it is a persuasive argument, it is no good — but it is a persuasive argument, it is no good acting, we are a fairly tiny country— is no good acting, we are a fairly tiny country and if china and india and brazil— tiny country and if china and india and brazil and all the major polluters don't come to the table we

are crippling our own economy. you have to say. — are crippling our own economy. you have to say. you — are crippling our own economy. wm. have to say, you have to allow an exception, we have to punish russia, but are we doing ourselves any favours long term? isn't there a danger we are going to say to a country absolutely dependent on export revenue... taste country absolutely dependent on export revenue. . ._ country absolutely dependent on export revenue... we 'ust had a 90 decrees export revenue... we 'ust had a 90 degrees tum h export revenue... we 'ust had a 90 degrees turn in h export revenue... we 'ust had a 90 degrees turn in this _ export revenue... we just had a 90 degrees turn in this conversation. l export revenue... we just had a 90 degrees turn in this conversation. i | degrees turn in this conversation. i think— degrees turn in this conversation. i think the _ degrees turn in this conversation. i think the reality _ degrees turn in this conversation. i think the reality behind _ degrees turn in this conversation. i think the reality behind the - think the reality behind the sanctions _ think the reality behind the sanctions against _ think the reality behind the sanctions against russia i think the reality behind the sanctions against russia as think the reality behind the i sanctions against russia as a separate _ sanctions against russia as a separate morality— sanctions against russia as a separate morality from - sanctions against russia as a l separate morality from climate change. — separate morality from climate change. but _ separate morality from climate change, but the _ separate morality from climate change, but the wholesale - separate morality from climate - change, but the wholesale slaughter of a nation — change, but the wholesale slaughter of a nation but— change, but the wholesale slaughter of a nation. �* ., change, but the wholesale slaughter ofa nation. �* ., , change, but the wholesale slaughter of a nation. �* . , ., , of a nation. but that is not my oint. of a nation. but that is not my point- is _ of a nation. but that is not my point- is it _ of a nation. but that is not my point. is it the _ of a nation. but that is not my point. is it the danger- of a nation. but that is not my point. is it the danger that - of a nation. but that is not my point. is it the danger that if l of a nation. but that is not my i point. is it the danger that if you say to a country like russia that this is your one key export, we are going to stop using you, it is over. that country then has more incentive to gain more energy —dependent vassal states. i am asking you. i

vassal states. i am asking you. i don't think i can separate the sanctions _ don't think i can separate the sanctions from _ don't think i can separate the sanctions from the _ don't think i can separate the sanctions from the reasons . don't think i can separate the i sanctions from the reasons for don't think i can separate the - sanctions from the reasons for the sanctions — sanctions from the reasons for the sanctions but _ sanctions from the reasons for the sanctions but i _ sanctions from the reasons for the sanctions but i think— sanctions from the reasons for the sanctions but i think the _ sanctions from the reasons for the sanctions but i think the questionl sanctions but i think the question is an— sanctions but i think the question is an interesting _ sanctions but i think the question is an interesting one. _ sanctions but i think the question is an interesting one. i— sanctions but i think the question is an interesting one. i am - is an interesting one. i am uncomfortable _ is an interesting one. i am uncomfortable trying - is an interesting one. i am uncomfortable trying to i is an interesting one. i am - uncomfortable trying to separate is an interesting one. i am _ uncomfortable trying to separate the two because — uncomfortable trying to separate the two because i— uncomfortable trying to separate the two because i think— uncomfortable trying to separate the two because i think for— uncomfortable trying to separate the two because i think for most - uncomfortable trying to separate the two because i think for most of - uncomfortable trying to separate the two because i think for most of us i two because i think for most of us there _ two because i think for most of us there is— two because i think for most of us there is a — two because i think for most of us there is a very— two because i think for most of us there is a very direct _ two because i think for most of us there is a very direct connection . there is a very direct connection and i_ there is a very direct connection and i know— there is a very direct connection and i know we _ there is a very direct connection and i know we are _ there is a very direct connection and i know we are going - there is a very direct connection and i know we are going to - there is a very direct connection and i know we are going to talk| and i know we are going to talk about— and i know we are going to talk about this _ and i know we are going to talk about this in _ and i know we are going to talk about this in a _ and i know we are going to talk about this in a moment, - and i know we are going to talk about this in a moment, but. and i know we are going to talk. about this in a moment, but there are long-term _ about this in a moment, but there are long—term impacts. _ about this in a moment, but there are long—term impacts. russia - about this in a moment, but there | are long—term impacts. russia has about this in a moment, but there . are long—term impacts. russia has a huge _ are long—term impacts. russia has a huge reserve — are long—term impacts. russia has a huge reserve of— are long—term impacts. russia has a huge reserve of oil— are long—term impacts. russia has a huge reserve of oil and _ are long—term impacts. russia has a huge reserve of oil and doesn't- are long—term impacts. russia has a huge reserve of oil and doesn't havej huge reserve of oil and doesn't have much _ huge reserve of oil and doesn't have much industry — huge reserve of oil and doesn't have much industry. it— huge reserve of oil and doesn't have much industry. it is— huge reserve of oil and doesn't have much industry. it is a _ huge reserve of oil and doesn't have much industry. it is a petrol- much industry. it is a petrol economy _ much industry. it is a petrol economy. there _ much industry. it is a petrol economy. there will- much industry. it is a petrol economy. there will be - much industry. it is a petrol- economy. there will be consequences but i economy. there will be consequences but i think— economy. there will be consequences but i think we — economy. there will be consequences but i think we have _ economy. there will be consequences but i think we have to— economy. there will be consequences but i think we have to deal— economy. there will be consequences but i think we have to deal with - economy. there will be consequences but i think we have to deal with the l but i think we have to deal with the immediate — but i think we have to deal with the immediate humanitarian— immediate humanitarian circumstances. - immediate humanitarian circumstances. pi - immediate humanitarian circumstances. �* , . , ., circumstances. a perfectly fair oint. circumstances. a perfectly fair point- the _ circumstances. a perfectly fair point. the political— circumstances. a perfectly fair point. the political cloud - circumstances. a perfectly fair| point. the political cloud which comes from having energy supplier is going to shift. it has shifted from the middle east. maybe not as fast as some would like but it is shifting. russia if we follow this through. where is it going to go, who will be the new energy titans? lets see who occupies that space. if

the un is right—hand if the un says we are essentially at peak carbon, we are essentially at peak carbon, we have to peak before 2025 is what the report said. the next two or three years so we are at peak carbon, the point at which this reorganisation happens. let me put it to you, australia could be that energy superpower by putting in wind turbines? to energy superpower by putting in wind turbines? ., , ., ., ~ turbines? to be fair, lateka bourke is not in charge _ turbines? to be fair, lateka bourke is not in charge of— turbines? to be fair, lateka bourke is not in charge of this. _ turbines? to be fair, lateka bourke is not in charge of this. i _ turbines? to be fair, lateka bourke is not in charge of this. i see - turbines? to be fair, lateka bourke is not in charge of this. i see this i is not in charge of this. i see this out there which _ is not in charge of this. i see this out there which frankly _ is not in charge of this. i see this out there which frankly boris - out there which frankly boris johnson has recognised and said we have unique access to the continental shift in the one—day part of the world. you could be doing the same.— part of the world. you could be doing the same. that is partly the answer to the _ doing the same. that is partly the answer to the questions _ doing the same. that is partly the answer to the questions and - doing the same. that is partly the answer to the questions and it - doing the same. that is partly the answer to the questions and it is l doing the same. that is partly the| answer to the questions and it is a really— answer to the questions and it is a really interesting _ answer to the questions and it is a really interesting question. - answer to the questions and it is a really interesting question. who. really interesting question. who will be _ really interesting question. who will be the — really interesting question. who will be the energy— really interesting question. who will be the energy power, - really interesting question. who will be the energy power, these| really interesting question. who. will be the energy power, these oil states— will be the energy power, these oil states in— will be the energy power, these oil states in 20 — will be the energy power, these oil states in 20 years. _ will be the energy power, these oil states in 20 years. i— will be the energy power, these oil states in 20 years. i think the - states in 20 years. i think the answer— states in 20 years. i think the answer is _ states in 20 years. i think the answer is technology, - states in 20 years. i think the answer is technology, the - states in 20 years. i think the - answer is technology, the people who create _ answer is technology, the people who create the _ answer is technology, the people who create the technology— answer is technology, the people who

create the technology that _ answer is technology, the people who create the technology that supplies i create the technology that supplies energy. _ create the technology that supplies energy. we — create the technology that supplies energy. we are _ create the technology that supplies energy, we are talking _ create the technology that supplies energy, we are talking about - create the technology that supplies energy, we are talking about wind i energy, we are talking about wind and solar~ — energy, we are talking about wind and solar. ., energy, we are talking about wind and solar. . , .. , energy, we are talking about wind and solar. . , , . and solar. there are places which have... and solar. there are places which have- -- lt — and solar. there are places which have--- it is— and solar. there are places which have... it is also _ and solar. there are places which have... it is also technology. - and solar. there are places which j have... it is also technology. this is one of the _ have... it is also technology. this is one of the big _ have. .. it is also technology. this is one of the big real— have... it is also technology. this is one of the big real promises i have... it is also technology. thisl is one of the big real promises and potential— is one of the big real promises and potential and australia should have been a _ potential and australia should have been a renewables superpower ten and 20 years _ been a renewables superpower ten and 20 years ago, we should have had solar— 20 years ago, we should have had solar farms — 20 years ago, we should have had solar farms in the desert. but what we are _ solar farms in the desert. but what we are now— solar farms in the desert. but what we are now doing as we have had a government— we are now doing as we have had a government who have said we are technology agnostic about how we get to net _ technology agnostic about how we get to net zero _ technology agnostic about how we get to net zero. they are not really technology agnostic, they are putting — technology agnostic, they are putting huge subsidies into green hydrogen and there is huge hope we will become a green hydrogen ekporter— will become a green hydrogen exporter that will provide asia and potentially even europe and you should _ potentially even europe and you should really watch out for announcements on this between britain _ announcements on this between britain and australia, and if that is the _ britain and australia, and if that is the case — britain and australia, and if that is the case what you will see as a retelling — is the case what you will see as a retelling of— is the case what you will see as a retelling of supply lines and energy security— retelling of supply lines and energy security so that we are trading energy— security so that we are trading energy with people we like and we

trust and — energy with people we like and we trust and we are not going to invade other— trust and we are not going to invade other countries. i trust and we are not going to invade other countries.— other countries. i think that is art of other countries. i think that is part of the — other countries. i think that is part of the equation _ other countries. i think that is part of the equation but - other countries. i think that is part of the equation but elonl other countries. i think that is - part of the equation but elon musk is building — part of the equation but elon musk is building solar— part of the equation but elon musk is building solar power— part of the equation but elon musk is building solar power is— part of the equation but elon musk is building solar power is for- part of the equation but elon musk is building solar power is for your. is building solar power is for your roof that — is building solar power is for your roof that can _ is building solar power is for your roof that can power— is building solar power is for your roof that can power your - is building solar power is for your roof that can power your home. i is building solar power is for your| roof that can power your home. it is building solar power is for your. roof that can power your home. it is impossible — roof that can power your home. it is impossible not _ roof that can power your home. it is impossible not to _ roof that can power your home. it is impossible not to believe _ roof that can power your home. it is impossible not to believe that - roof that can power your home. it is impossible not to believe that a - roof that can power your home. it is impossible not to believe that a big| impossible not to believe that a big part of— impossible not to believe that a big part of the — impossible not to believe that a big part of the equation _ impossible not to believe that a big part of the equation will— impossible not to believe that a big part of the equation will be - impossible not to believe that a big part of the equation will be that, i part of the equation will be that, particularly — part of the equation will be that, particularly for— part of the equation will be that, particularly for new— part of the equation will be that, particularly for new built - part of the equation will be that, particularly for new built homesl part of the equation will be that, i particularly for new built homes and homes _ particularly for new built homes and homes with— particularly for new built homes and homes with a — particularly for new built homes and homes with a specific— particularly for new built homes and homes with a specific design - particularly for new built homes and homes with a specific design that i homes with a specific design that can be _ homes with a specific design that can be retrofitted. _ homes with a specific design that can be retrofitted. those - can be retrofitted. those powerhouses, _ can be retrofitted. those powerhouses, once - can be retrofitted. those powerhouses, once thatl can be retrofitted. those _ powerhouses, once that technology becomes _ powerhouses, once that technology becomes affordable, _ powerhouses, once that technology becomes affordable, and _ powerhouses, once that technology becomes affordable, and right - powerhouses, once that technology becomes affordable, and right now| powerhouses, once that technology. becomes affordable, and right now it is a wealthy— becomes affordable, and right now it is a wealthy person's _ becomes affordable, and right now it is a wealthy person's game _ becomes affordable, and right now it is a wealthy person's game but - becomes affordable, and right now it is a wealthy person's game but lets i is a wealthy person's game but lets bring _ is a wealthy person's game but lets bring the _ is a wealthy person's game but lets bring the price _ is a wealthy person's game but lets bring the price down. _ is a wealthy person's game but lets bring the price down. the - is a wealthy person's game but lets bring the price down.— bring the price down. the other thing people — bring the price down. the other thing people tend _ bring the price down. the other thing people tend to _ bring the price down. the other thing people tend to recognise | bring the price down. the other. thing people tend to recognise is what we are also seeing as an electrification of the world as we move away from gas and oil. and once you do that and you have a heat pump in your house and a car with a big battery and a solar panel on the roof, the three can work together to maximise your energy efficiency and minimise use of the grid so in a way it potentially decentralised as power. it potentially decentralised as ower. ., , ., .., power. one of the things that came out of the discussions _ power. one of the things that came out of the discussions is _ power. one of the things that came out of the discussions is the -

out of the discussions is the suggestion from the government that by 2020 8/2 of all new cars sold have to be fully electric, not even dual. tesla have done a deal with new caledonia in the specific region. tiny territory, but it happens to have one tenth of the world's nickel and suddenly everybody needs it. presumably all of those factors, you say who owns the technology, it could be governments or government license technology, it will give them political power.— technology, it will give them olitical ower. ., . . , political power. rare earth minerals is a hue political power. rare earth minerals is a huge deal _ political power. rare earth minerals is a huge deal for _ political power. rare earth minerals is a huge deal for australia - political power. rare earth minerals is a huge deal for australia and - political power. rare earth minerals is a huge deal for australia and we | is a huge deal for australia and we have _ is a huge deal for australia and we have been— is a huge deal for australia and we have been striking gales because we are very— have been striking gales because we are very sensitive to chinese ownership of this and we are trying to get— ownership of this and we are trying to get our— ownership of this and we are trying to get our own self—sufficiency and that is _ to get our own self—sufficiency and that is something we are trying to do with— that is something we are trying to do with a — that is something we are trying to do with a lot of asian countries including — do with a lot of asian countries including india which anybody watching this space knows that india is more _ watching this space knows that india is more than happy to go out and buy russian _ is more than happy to go out and buy russian gas _ is more than happy to go out and buy russian gas at the moment, sold at bargain _ russian gas at the moment, sold at bargain basement prices. that is very concerning for a country like australia — very concerning for a country like australia because we see a country like india _

australia because we see a country like india as— australia because we see a country like india as a potential strategic partner— like india as a potential strategic partner in— like india as a potential strategic partner in the pacific. all of this is related — partner in the pacific. all of this is related and if australia can crack— is related and if australia can crack energy security it can crack climate — crack energy security it can crack climate change. it can also crack global— climate change. it can also crack global security and on something that matters for us so much in our region— that matters for us so much in our region which — that matters for us so much in our region which has the edge on china. has this _ region which has the edge on china. has this accelerated the focus on energy security, the transition to my car will be interested to hear what everybody else says. it my car will be interested to hear what everybody else says. it seems to me it is balanced _ what everybody else says. it seems to me it is balanced because - what everybody else says. it seems to me it is balanced because on - what everybody else says. it seems to me it is balanced because on the one hand come up with energy prices soaring, the thought would be traditional sources of energy like lots more coal in germany, and not necessarily renewables because they take time to go end. but in the longer term countries have said, hold on a second, there is a weight to decouple. i hold on a second, there is a weight to decouple-_ to decouple. i think that is exactly riaht to decouple. i think that is exactly ri . ht and to decouple. i think that is exactly right and that _ to decouple. i think that is exactly right and that is _ to decouple. i think that is exactly right and that is the _ to decouple. i think that is exactly right and that is the good - to decouple. i think that is exactly right and that is the good news. . to decouple. i think that is exactly right and that is the good news. i | right and that is the good news. i don't _ right and that is the good news. i don't want — right and that is the good news. i don't want to _ right and that is the good news. i don't want to get _ right and that is the good news. i don't want to get ahead - right and that is the good news. i don't want to get ahead of - right and that is the good news. i don't want to get ahead of the i don't want to get ahead of the discussion— don't want to get ahead of the discussion but— don't want to get ahead of the discussion but i— don't want to get ahead of the discussion but i think- don't want to get ahead of the discussion but i think in - don't want to get ahead of the discussion but i think in the i don't want to get ahead of the i discussion but i think in the short term _ discussion but i think in the short term we —

discussion but i think in the short term we are _ discussion but i think in the short term we are seeing _ discussion but i think in the short term we are seeing some - discussion but i think in the short term we are seeing some of- discussion but i think in the short term we are seeing some of the. discussion but i think in the short. term we are seeing some of the old stuff being — term we are seeing some of the old stuff being extended, _ term we are seeing some of the old stuff being extended, nuclear- term we are seeing some of the old| stuff being extended, nuclear power is back _ stuff being extended, nuclear power is back the — stuff being extended, nuclear power is back. the nature _ stuff being extended, nuclear power is back. the nature of— stuff being extended, nuclear power is back. the nature of the _ is back. the nature of the discussion— is back. the nature of the discussion has— is back. the nature of the discussion has changed . is back. the nature of thej discussion has changed in is back. the nature of the - discussion has changed in the last six weeks — discussion has changed in the last six weeks. �* , ., discussion has changed in the last sixweeks. �* , ., ., �*, six weeks. because of what's happening — six weeks. because of what's happening in _ six weeks. because of what's happening in ukraine. - six weeks. because of what's happening in ukraine. putin i six weeks. because of what's i happening in ukraine. putin has really changed _ happening in ukraine. putin has really changed the _ happening in ukraine. putin has really changed the way - happening in ukraine. putin has really changed the way we - happening in ukraine. putin has. really changed the way we perceive energy— really changed the way we perceive energy supply _ really changed the way we perceive energy supply and _ really changed the way we perceive energy supply and security. - really changed the way we perceive energy supply and security. in - energy supply and security. germany they mothballed energy supply and security.“ germany they mothballed nuclear power stations and say they will now bring some back. that is how dramatic this change has been. for all sorts of reasons it is such an incredibly interesting moment. bend all sorts of reasons it is such an incredibly interesting moment. band i incredibly interesting moment. and i hate to be the _ incredibly interesting moment. and i hate to be the doom _ incredibly interesting moment. and i hate to be the doom and _ incredibly interesting moment. and i hate to be the doom and gloom but we need to— hate to be the doom and gloom but we need to be _ hate to be the doom and gloom but we need to be moralistic about what will happen in the immediate term and i_ will happen in the immediate term and i think— will happen in the immediate term and i think that will grow more acceptable political framework for using _ acceptable political framework for using fossil fuels in the short term — using fossil fuels in the short term so _ using fossil fuels in the short term. so a good example is one of the humanitarian things australia has done — the humanitarian things australia has done is send tens of thousands of tonnes— has done is send tens of thousands of tonnes of— has done is send tens of thousands of tonnes of coal, humanitarian call, _ of tonnes of coal, humanitarian call, to— of tonnes of coal, humanitarian call, to ukraine. nobody is actually saying _ call, to ukraine. nobody is actually saying that — call, to ukraine. nobody is actually saying that as a bad thing. why would — saying that as a bad thing. why would you, because ukraine urgently

need energy. we are sending them humanitarian call. it is need energy. we are sending them humanitarian call.— humanitarian call. it is really good pr. not a humanitarian call. it is really good pr- not a dirty — humanitarian call. it is really good pr. not a dirty fuel, _ humanitarian call. it is really good pr. not a dirty fuel, it _ humanitarian call. it is really good pr. not a dirty fuel, it is - pr. not a dirty fuel, it is humanitarian call.- pr. not a dirty fuel, it is humanitarian call. ., humanitarian call. scott morrison, who infamously _ humanitarian call. scott morrison, who infamously went _ humanitarian call. scott morrison, who infamously went into - humanitarian call. scott morrison, who infamously went into the - who infamously went into the australian parliament with a lump of coal saying _ australian parliament with a lump of coal saying don't be scared of this, he gets— coal saying don't be scared of this, he gets up— coal saying don't be scared of this, he gets up and welcomes president zelensky— he gets up and welcomes president zelensky to give his address to the parliament and says you have our billets _ parliament and says you have our billets and — parliament and says you have our billets and our call and everyone in australia _ billets and our call and everyone in australia went, that is a bit political, _ australia went, that is a bit political, but president zelensky said thank you for the call. that is an interesting _ said thank you for the call. that is an interesting thought. _ said thank you for the call. that is an interesting thought. i - said thank you for the call. that is an interesting thought. i want - said thank you for the call. that is an interesting thought. i want to i an interesting thought. i want to pick up two things, you talked about nuclear. we have emmanuel macron up for election in the farand saying we are going for energy independence and it will be nuclear —based. in the uk we are going to end up with only one nuclear reactor very soon. we have hinkley watch the previous

conservative government but one started the ball rolling on.- started the ball rolling on. labour started the ball rolling on. labour started that- _ started the ball rolling on. labour started that. they _ started the ball rolling on. labour started that. they announced - started the ball rolling on. labour started that. they announced an i started the ball rolling on. labour. started that. they announced an age of nuclear i2 started that. they announced an age of nuclear 12 years ago. that started that. they announced an age of nuclear 12 years ago.— of nuclear 12 years ago. that makes sense but the _ of nuclear 12 years ago. that makes sense but the deal— of nuclear 12 years ago. that makes sense but the deal was _ of nuclear 12 years ago. that makes sense but the deal was done - of nuclear 12 years ago. that makes sense but the deal was done by - of nuclear 12 years ago. that makes sense but the deal was done by the| sense but the deal was done by the cameron government. the sense but the deal was done by the cameron government.— cameron government. the pro'ect be . an in cameron government. the pro'ect began in zoo7 �* cameron government. the pro'ect began in 2007 when i cameron government. the pro'ect began in 2007 when they �* cameron government. the project| began in 2007 when they famously said you will be cooking your christmas turkey by 2017. b5 said you will be cooking your christmas turkey by 2017. as the turkey acceptable _ christmas turkey by 2017. as the turkey acceptable to _ christmas turkey by 2017. as the turkey acceptable to eat - christmas turkey by 2017. as the turkey acceptable to eat at - christmas turkey by 2017. as the turkey acceptable to eat at this i turkey acceptable to eat at this point? — turkey acceptable to eat at this oint? �* , , ., turkey acceptable to eat at this oint? �* , ,., .,, , ., point? but my point was this, at the time with the _ point? but my point was this, at the time with the cameron _ point? but my point was this, at the time with the cameron government| time with the cameron government there was criticism of the price that the government had guaranteed they would pay for electricity which i looked it up, £92 50 per megawatt hour. does it look like a good deal now? it hour. does it look like a good deal now? ., , ., ., , ~ now? it does at the moment but like cold water this _ now? it does at the moment but like cold water this is _ now? it does at the moment but like cold water this is a _ now? it does at the moment but like cold water this is a moment - now? it does at the moment but like cold water this is a moment of - cold water this is a moment of crisis and fuel prices are very high. this will be a temporary thing

and there is no fundamental shortage of fossilfuels. the and there is no fundamental shortage of fossil fuels. the world will reorganise itself, power available, and so prices will fall, in two years. in time prices will fall. but what hasn't _ years. in time prices will fall. but what hasn't changed, and to go back, inevitably— what hasn't changed, and to go back, inevitably they — what hasn't changed, and to go back, inevitably they will— what hasn't changed, and to go back, inevitably they will rise _ what hasn't changed, and to go back, inevitably they will rise and _ what hasn't changed, and to go back, inevitably they will rise and fall, - inevitably they will rise and fall, but this— inevitably they will rise and fall, but this concept _ inevitably they will rise and fall, but this concept of— inevitably they will rise and fall, but this concept of energy - inevitably they will rise and fall, i but this concept of energy security is now— but this concept of energy security is now front — but this concept of energy security is now front and _ but this concept of energy security is now front and centre. _ but this concept of energy security is now front and centre. just - but this concept of energy security is now front and centre. just like l is now front and centre. just like the pandemic— is now front and centre. just like the pandemic global— is now front and centre. just like the pandemic global health - is now front and centre. just like the pandemic global health at i is now front and centre. just like i the pandemic global health at the centre _ the pandemic global health at the centre stage _ the pandemic global health at the centre stage and _ the pandemic global health at the centre stage and stopped - the pandemic global health at the centre stage and stopped us - the pandemic global health at the centre stage and stopped us from talking _ centre stage and stopped us from talking face—to—face, _ centre stage and stopped us from talking face—to—face, what - centre stage and stopped us from talking face—to—face, what is - talking face—to—face, what is happening _ talking face—to—face, what is happening and _ talking face—to—face, what is happening and what - talking face—to—face, what is happening and what putin. talking face—to—face, what isl happening and what putin has talking face—to—face, what is - happening and what putin has done has forever— happening and what putin has done has forever reminded _ happening and what putin has done has forever reminded us _ happening and what putin has done has forever reminded us that - happening and what putin has done has forever reminded us that we i happening and what putin has done i has forever reminded us that we need to understand — has forever reminded us that we need to understand the _ has forever reminded us that we need to understand the consequences - has forever reminded us that we need to understand the consequences of i to understand the consequences of our energy— to understand the consequences of our energy strppty~ _ to understand the consequences of our energy supply. and _ to understand the consequences of our energy sum-— our energy supply. and it has happened _ our energy supply. and it has happened that _ our energy supply. and it has happened that the _ our energy supply. and it has happened that the first - our energy supply. and it has happened that the first time | our energy supply. and it has. happened that the first time in history there is a viable economic alternative to fossil fuels, because as the ipcc pointed out renewables are far cheaper than anyone expected them to be. they have fallen

unbelievably, prices have tumbled, so they are often the cheapest form of energy for many countries. itrailiiiie of energy for many countries. while euro -e of energy for many countries. while eur0pe agonises — of energy for many countries. while europe agonises over— of energy for many countries. while europe agonises over what - of energy for many countries. while europe agonises over what one of the mayors of ukraine said was blood money, buying russian oil and gas, australia not only sending humanitarian call but armoured vehicles, bush masters, to help the ukrainians, do you see anything at the moment that will accelerate the end of the war or predict the trajectory?— trajectory? very interesting listeninu trajectory? very interesting listening to _ trajectory? very interesting listening to boris _ trajectory? very interesting listening to boris johnson l trajectory? very interesting i listening to boris johnson and trajectory? very interesting - listening to boris johnson and olaf listening to borisjohnson and olaf scholz— listening to borisjohnson and olaf scholz the german chancellor in london — scholz the german chancellor in london today and both of them seems to be suggesting we should be strapping in for a very long conflict _ strapping in for a very long conflict and they were suggesting the sanctions should be long term and therefore the war would be long—term. you only had to listen to nato's _ long—term. you only had to listen to nato's boss — long—term. you only had to listen to nato's boss this week to hear that white _ nato's boss this week to hear that while russia has withdrawn from northern — while russia has withdrawn from northern ukraine and we know that as

of today— northern ukraine and we know that as of today they are regrouping and refocusing on the east in the donbas, _ refocusing on the east in the donbas, putin has not walked away from his— donbas, putin has not walked away from his ambition to own all of ukraine — from his ambition to own all of ukraine. so what does that tell us? this is— ukraine. so what does that tell us? this isjust — ukraine. so what does that tell us? this isjust the start of ukraine. so what does that tell us? this is just the start of some very hard _ this is just the start of some very hard years— this is just the start of some very hard years ahead for europe. | hard years ahead for europe. didn't hear hard years ahead for europe. i didn't hear what olaf scholz said but it _ didn't hear what olaf scholz said but it enrages _ didn't hear what olaf scholz said but it enrages me _ didn't hear what olaf scholz said but it enrages me because - didn't hear what olaf scholz said but it enrages me because he i didn't hear what olaf scholz said but it enrages me because he is| didn't hear what olaf scholz said l but it enrages me because he is in no position— but it enrages me because he is in no position to _ but it enrages me because he is in no position to make _ but it enrages me because he is in no position to make these - but it enrages me because he is in - no position to make these comments. i find no position to make these comments. i find it— no position to make these comments. i find it moratty— no position to make these comments. i find it morally and _ no position to make these comments. i find it morally and defensively- no position to make these comments. i find it morally and defensively —— - i find it morally and defensively —— indefensible, — i find it morally and defensively —— indefensible, and _ i find it morally and defensively —— indefensible, and they _ i find it morally and defensively —— indefensible, and they are - i find it morally and defensively —— indefensible, and they are more i i find it morally and defensively —— . indefensible, and they are more than any nation _ indefensible, and they are more than any nation on — indefensible, and they are more than any nation on earth _ indefensible, and they are more than any nation on earth fuelling - indefensible, and they are more than any nation on earth fuelling this - any nation on earth fuelling this war _ any nation on earth fuelling this war they— any nation on earth fuelling this war. they didn't _ any nation on earth fuelling this war. they didn't cause - any nation on earth fuelling this war. they didn't cause it - any nation on earth fuelling this war. they didn't cause it but - any nation on earth fuelling thisl war. they didn't cause it but 220 american — war. they didn't cause it but 220 american dollars— war. they didn't cause it but 220 american dollars a _ war. they didn't cause it but 220 american dollars a day— war. they didn't cause it but 220 american dollars a day go - war. they didn't cause it but 220 american dollars a day go to - war. they didn't cause it but 220 - american dollars a day go to moscow to pay— american dollars a day go to moscow to pay for— american dollars a day go to moscow to pay for the — american dollars a day go to moscow to pay for the fuet— american dollars a day go to moscow to pay for the fuel that _ american dollars a day go to moscow to pay for the fuel that warms - to pay for the fuel that warms german— to pay for the fuel that warms german homes— to pay for the fuel that warms german homes and _ to pay for the fuel that warms german homes and fuels - to pay for the fuel that warms - german homes and fuels german industry — german homes and fuels german industry it— german homes and fuels german industry it is— german homes and fuels german industry. it is so— german homes and fuels german industry. it is so interesting - german homes and fuels german industry. it is so interesting thati industry. it is so interesting that industry. it is so interesting that in 2009. — industry. it is so interesting that in 2009. when— industry. it is so interesting that in 2009, when the _ industry. it is so interesting that in 2009, when the euro - industry. it is so interesting that| in 2009, when the euro crashed, germany— in 2009, when the euro crashed, germany wagged _ in 2009, when the euro crashed, germany wagged its _ in 2009, when the euro crashed, germany wagged its finger - in 2009, when the euro crashed, germany wagged its finger at - in 2009, when the euro crashed, - germany wagged its finger at greece and said _ germany wagged its finger at greece and said you — germany wagged its finger at greece and said you are— germany wagged its finger at greece and said you are a _ germany wagged its finger at greece and said you are a responsible - germany wagged its finger at greece and said you are a responsible and l and said you are a responsible and

we are _ and said you are a responsible and we are going — and said you are a responsible and we are going to— and said you are a responsible and we are going to cut _ and said you are a responsible and we are going to cut you _ and said you are a responsible and we are going to cut you off - and said you are a responsible and we are going to cut you off and - we are going to cut you off and their— we are going to cut you off and their economy _ we are going to cut you off and their economy shrank- we are going to cut you off and their economy shrank 20%. - we are going to cut you off and . their economy shrank 20%. now, we are going to cut you off and - their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot— their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot cut _ their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot cut off— their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot cut off the _ their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot cut off the oil— their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot cut off the oil because - their economy shrank 20%. now, we cannot cut off the oil because our - cannot cut off the oil because our economy— cannot cut off the oil because our economy might _ cannot cut off the oil because our economy might drink— cannot cut off the oil because our economy might drink a _ cannot cut off the oil because our economy might drink a couple - cannot cut off the oil because our economy might drink a couple of| economy might drink a couple of points _ economy might drink a couple of points what _ economy might drink a couple of points. what moral— economy might drink a couple of points. what moral hypocrisy. i economy might drink a couple of. points. what moral hypocrisy. and the germans — points. what moral hypocrisy. and the germans feel— points. what moral hypocrisy. and the germans feel this. _ points. what moral hypocrisy. and the germans feel this. surveys - points. what moral hypocrisy. andj the germans feel this. surveys say that germans _ the germans feel this. surveys say that germans believe _ the germans feel this. surveys say that germans believe the - the germans feel this. surveys say that germans believe the gas - the germans feel this. surveys say. that germans believe the gas should be cut— that germans believe the gas should be cut off _ that germans believe the gas should be cut off. there _ that germans believe the gas should be cut off. there is _ that germans believe the gas should be cut off. there is a _ that germans believe the gas should be cut off. there is a way _ that germans believe the gas should be cut off. there is a way to - be cut off. there is a way to shorten _ be cut off. there is a way to shorten this _ be cut off. there is a way to shorten this war— be cut off. there is a way to shorten this war and - be cut off. there is a way to shorten this war and olaf. be cut off. there is a way to - shorten this war and olaf scholz hotds _ shorten this war and olaf scholz holds the — shorten this war and olaf scholz holds the key~ _ shorten this war and olaf scholz holds the key. will— shorten this war and olaf scholz holds the key. will it _ shorten this war and olaf scholz holds the key. will it hurt - shorten this war and olaf scholz holds the key. will it hurt his. holds the key. will it hurt his economy? _ holds the key. will it hurt his economy? yes, _ holds the key. will it hurt his economy? yes, but- holds the key. will it hurt his economy? yes, but let's - holds the key. will it hurt his| economy? yes, but let's look holds the key. will it hurt his. economy? yes, but let's look at german— economy? yes, but let's look at german history— economy? yes, but let's look at german history and _ economy? yes, but let's look at german history and the - economy? yes, but let's look at german history and the legacy, i economy? yes, but let's look at - german history and the legacy, have you not— german history and the legacy, have you not learned _ german history and the legacy, have you not learned that _ german history and the legacy, have you not learned that there _ german history and the legacy, have you not learned that there is - german history and the legacy, have you not learned that there is a - you not learned that there is a morat— you not learned that there is a moral stance _ you not learned that there is a moral stance that— you not learned that there is a moral stance that goes - you not learned that there is a moral stance that goes ahead | you not learned that there is a l moral stance that goes ahead of you not learned that there is a - moral stance that goes ahead of 3% shrinkage _ moral stance that goes ahead of 3% shrinkage of— moral stance that goes ahead of 3% shrinkage of your— moral stance that goes ahead of 3% shrinkage of your economy - moral stance that goes ahead of 3% shrinkage of your economy for - moral stance that goes ahead of 3% shrinkage of your economy for a - shrinkage of your economy for a period. — shrinkage of your economy for a period. to — shrinkage of your economy for a period. to stop— shrinkage of your economy for a period. to stop a _ shrinkage of your economy for a period, to stop a bloodbath, - shrinkage of your economy for a - period, to stop a bloodbath, really? ithink— period, to stop a bloodbath, really? i think it _ period, to stop a bloodbath, really? i think it is — period, to stop a bloodbath, really? i think it is outrageous— period, to stop a bloodbath, really? i think it is outrageous that - period, to stop a bloodbath, really? i think it is outrageous that he - i think it is outrageous that he would — i think it is outrageous that he would say, _ i think it is outrageous that he would say, we _ i think it is outrageous that he would say, we have _ i think it is outrageous that he would say, we have to - i think it is outrageous that he would say, we have to get - i think it is outrageous that he i would say, we have to get used i think it is outrageous that he - would say, we have to get used to this going — would say, we have to get used to this going on. _ would say, we have to get used to this going on, but _ would say, we have to get used to this going on, but don't _ would say, we have to get used to this going on, but don't worry, - would say, we have to get used to . this going on, but don't worry, bmw and mercedes — this going on, but don't worry, bmw and mercedes are _ this going on, but don't worry, bmw and mercedes are still— this going on, but don't worry, bmw and mercedes are still producing. i this going on, but don't worry, bmw and mercedes are still producing. this and mercedes are still producing. ae; and mercedes are still producing. a balancing comment on germany, and mercedes are still producing.- a balancing comment on germany, we have to recognise that germany has changed its policies very quickly. they are still sending that money. but they— they are still sending that money. but they are —

they are still sending that money. but they are trying _ they are still sending that money. but they are trying to _ they are still sending that money. but they are trying to reduce, - they are still sending that money. j but they are trying to reduce, that is the problem. it is very hard to change the supply of energy in your economy. you cannot do it suddenly. i agree there could be sacrifices made and they will have to ration it because this is such an urgent moment. i because this is such an urgent moment. . because this is such an urgent moment. , ., �* because this is such an urgent moment-— because this is such an urgent moment. , ., �* ,, . moment. i 'ust don't think that the washes for moment. i just don't think that the washes for the _ moment. i just don't think that the washes for the people _ moment. i just don't think that the washes for the people of _ moment. i just don't think that the j washes for the people of mariupol. in washes for the people of mariupol. in our— washes for the people of mariupol. in our lifetimes, _ washes for the people of mariupol. in our lifetimes, this _ washes for the people of mariupol. in our lifetimes, this is _ washes for the people of mariupol. in our lifetimes, this is the - in our lifetimes, this is the biggest _ in our lifetimes, this is the biggest humanitarian - in our lifetimes, this is the biggest humanitarian crisis in our lifetimes, this is the . biggest humanitarian crisis in europe — biggest humanitarian crisis in europe and _ biggest humanitarian crisis in europe and it _ biggest humanitarian crisis in europe and it is _ biggest humanitarian crisis in europe and it is indefensiblel biggest humanitarian crisis in i europe and it is indefensible to say. _ europe and it is indefensible to say, it— europe and it is indefensible to say. it takes— europe and it is indefensible to say, it takes time. _ europe and it is indefensible to say, it takes time. can - europe and it is indefensible to say, it takes time.— europe and it is indefensible to say, it takes time. can i ask you, when you — say, it takes time. can i ask you, when you look— say, it takes time. can i ask you, when you look at _ say, it takes time. can i ask you, when you look at the _ say, it takes time. can i ask you, when you look at the crimes - say, it takes time. can i ask you, when you look at the crimes that| say, it takes time. can i ask you, - when you look at the crimes that are alleged to have been committed in places like bucha and elsewhere in ukraine, and laid at the door of the russians, just as a last thought, does that tell you anything about this war and how it's going and where it leaves russia? this this war and how it's going and where it leaves russia?- this war and how it's going and where it leaves russia? this is the hue where it leaves russia? this is the huge challenge — where it leaves russia? this is the huge challenge russia _ where it leaves russia? this is the

huge challenge russia is _ where it leaves russia? this is the huge challenge russia is going - where it leaves russia? this is the huge challenge russia is going to l huge challenge russia is going to face. how is it ever going to... in the medium term, how will it overcome the reputational damage of these apparent war crimes it has committed to? it will be a huge challenge, it will be a stain that russia has to try and deal with for decades to come. find russia has to try and deal with for decades to come.— decades to come. and what is interesting — decades to come. and what is interesting is _ decades to come. and what is interesting is as _ decades to come. and what is interesting is as a _ decades to come. and what is interesting is as a journalist . decades to come. and what is i interesting is as a journalist also interested — interesting is as a journalist also interested in— interesting is as a journalist also interested in technology, - interesting is as a journalist also interested in technology, the . interesting is as a journalist alsoi interested in technology, the way interesting is as a journalist also - interested in technology, the way we are seeing _ interested in technology, the way we are seeing this — interested in technology, the way we are seeing this war— interested in technology, the way we are seeing this war is— interested in technology, the way we are seeing this war is like _ interested in technology, the way we are seeing this war is like nothing - are seeing this war is like nothing before _ are seeing this war is like nothing before. witnessing _ are seeing this war is like nothing before. witnessing war— are seeing this war is like nothing before. witnessing war crimes . are seeing this war is like nothing before. witnessing war crimes as| before. witnessing war crimes as they happen. _ before. witnessing war crimes as they happen. they— before. witnessing war crimes as they happen, they can't - before. witnessing war crimes as they happen, they can't hide - before. witnessing war crimes as . they happen, they can't hide behind this. ., ~ they happen, they can't hide behind this. . ,, , ., . they happen, they can't hide behind this. ., ~' , ., ., , they happen, they can't hide behind this. . «e . , . they happen, they can't hide behind this. . ~e , ., . , . . this. thank you all very much, a terrific discussion, _ this. thank you all very much, a terrific discussion, thank - this. thank you all very much, a terrific discussion, thank you . this. thank you all very much, a j terrific discussion, thank you for joining us. thank you for your company, more of the same next week, join us then.

today wasn't quite as cold as yesterday because the wind wasn't as strong but we have still ended the week with temperatures below par for the time of year. we take that chilly arctic air with us into the start of the weekend, but as we move into next week, a shift in the pattern. southerly winds delivering some warmer conditions across the uk. for this weekend, it will be chilly, particularly at first, some cold and frosty nights. often dry with just a few showers. next week it will feel warm where we get sunshine but not sunny all the time. also some outbreaks of rain. talking of rain, we saw some heavy downpours across southern england and the channel islands during this morning. that clearing away, then sunny spells. as you can see from the radar, lots of showers and thunderstorms and wintry showers, especially across northern areas.

most of those showers will slowly fade as we head through the night, clear skies overhead and that will allow for quite a widespread frost and temperatures in the towns and cities around or below freezing. lows of around “4 in the countryside and parts of northern england. into tomorrow, a cold, frosty but bright and sunny start. through the day we will see showers once again but these are most plentiful towards the north and east, where it stays breezy. further south and west, lighter winds, not as many showers and more dry weather and plenty of sunshine. temperatures still a touch below the average for this point in april, seven to 12 degrees. as you move through saturday night, this ridge of high pressure topples its way eastwards, again allowing it to get cold and frosty. but this frontal system pushing in from the west will start to introduce a little more cloud so temperatures out west, in belfast and plymouth, may stay above freezing. most places having a cold start to sunday morning but a bright start with plenty of sunshine.

through the day, as the weather system approaches, we will see more cloud building in from the west, the majority will stay dry and a bit of rain could splash into parts of northern ireland later. but the wind is starting to come from the south so temperatures will climb just a little. a trend that will continue into next week. if we get sunshine, we could see highs of 18, 19 or close to 20 degrees. but there will also be some rain at times, especially in the north and west.

this is bbc news with the headlines.... condemnation after another atrocity in ukraine, where at least 50 people are dead and hundreds more injured in a rocket attack a train station, in the east of the country. you can see the effects of the blast on these parked cars behind me now burnt out. on the pavement, you can see bags of food that they were taking for their journey to safety, along with dried blood that's smeared across the pavement. the uk chancellor rishi sunak�*s wife, akshata murty, volunteers to pay uk taxes on her overseas income, following questions over her non—domicile status. in the run up to the french presidential election a poll suggests emmanuel macron's far—right rival marine le pen is closer than ever before to winning