this is bbc world news. the headlines... russia urges ukrainian forces in mariupol to surrender in order to save their lives — but there's no sign yet that they've laid down their arms. president zelensky warns there will be consequences, if russia takes action against the remaining troops in the city. translation: the elimination of our troops, of amen will put an end to any negotiations. the death toll rises in south africa — following heavy flooding — with a warning more rain may be on the way. the archbishop of canterbury — the most senior cleric in the anglican church condemns plans by the uk government to send now on bbc news, dateline london.

hello, i'm shaun ley. welcome to the programme, which brings together leading uk columnists and the foreign correspondents, who write, blog and broadcast to audiences in their own countries from the dateline: london. in the studio today are agnes poirier of the french news magazine and website marianne, michael goldfarb, former foreign correspondent with us public radio, now host of the frdh podcast — that's the first rough draft of history — catherine pepinster who is a former editor of the catholic newspaper the tablet, and writes in british newspapers on politics, religion and ethics. a "fratricidal war" is how a group of dissenting priests from the russian orthodox church describe their country's invasion of ukraine. it could wreck the spiritual ambition of kirill, patriarch

of moscow and all rus�*, to reunite the church in the two countries, just as it could wreck the political ambition of his sponsor, vladimir putin. on the other side of the continent in france, a country, which used the blade of a guillotine to eviscerate the divine right of kings along with the religion that sustained it, political parties — broad churches during the 20th century — lack believers. and what faith should the british place in a prime minister determined by the police to have broken his own covid law? lots to talk about this easter weekend. catherine, lets start with what is happening in ukraine. how big a strain is this putting on the orthodox church, the russian orthodox church in particular, and those 90 odd million orthodox christians? it is a big strain. it is particularly putting strain on members of the orthodox church in ukraine itself. already there is an independent

ukrainian orthodox church, and now we are seeing more and more priests, who have felt so torn between their country and the russian orthodox church led by patriarch kirill, they feel that what he has been doing, endorsing the war, effectively blessing it, making it a holy war, is completely unacceptable and they are also talking about splitting. i read something today from a theologian in ukraine, who suggested that as many as half of the 12,000 parishes of the russian orthodox church in ukraine could break away, so this is really significant. there are also some priests in russia itself, who have started to be more and more anxious about what is happening, but for them, you can imagine it's extremely tough to speak out, and we are also seeing

breakaways as well elsewhere. the russian orthodox church in amsterdam, for example, has decided it will break away from moscow. how important has russian orthodoxy been to the narrative that president putin is trying to construct? it's a very interesting question. despite the 50 years when stalin effectively made russia an atheist state, it doesn't go away. the russian orthodox church has always been a political player within russian society going back into tsarist times. and unlike in france or in the us or even in the uk, the separation never really happened, and it's really interesting. vladimir putin was baptised as a boy and his dad was a member of the communist party, so that really is something, and the priest, who officiated his baptism was kirill's father, so they have a very

close connection, and they share a worldview. for russians, as i understand it, and i have actually gone to services in a cemetery where there is a wonderful monastery, and i want to tell you, this side of the holy city of mashhad in iran, i have never encountered faith of that intensity, but that said, those kinds of worshippers are thin on the ground, however, russian orthodoxy is like an essential strand of russian culture and political life, and essentially, always has been, and i think that this is why this combination of kirill and putin, with a very similar worldview, has so much power at the moment and can motivate a country into this war. it's interesting that you mention how things used to be with stalin because, of course, he tried to really destroy orthodoxy, but then, he changed his mind and started to realise the usefulness

of orthodoxy, and it is as if putin has spotted that earlier than stalin did. but in russia, the church and the military have - always been hand—in—hand. i looked at an interview of putin a few years back when he said i that the nuclear weapons or armament and orthodoxy were the two pillars - of national russian identity, . and of course, he was secretly baptised, and also, he built thousands of churches - in the last ten years or so, - and not only in russia but abroad. i mean, orthodoxy, the russian kind, is a tool of foreign policy. _ you only have to go to paris - on the river bank and there is this

beautiful orthodox church. so, it's part of putin's soft power? completely, but also... i think it is three - quarters of russians, who identify as orthodox. it is part of not only i the national narrative, but it is a very conservative tool within russian society. - when i visited moscow a few years ago, i was struck by the return of the tsarist icons to the church, that almost felt like a political statement as well, that kind of almost autocratic leadership is something of value politically. and if you go to saint petersburg, you can now visit the shrines to the romanovs and they have been consecrated as saints by the orthodox church. it was really interesting,

in that service at the monastery, the priest went to the back room, you could hear them singing and doing whatever they do, and the ordinary people are just making a circuit of the icons and crossing themselves, and the actual heavy lifting is being done in secret, is if behind the kremlin walls, except it's in the back room of this church. it's interesting, the power being used for propaganda purposes, but i double and triple checked, it's online, so who can be sure? a website two years ago, they noted that on the moskva, this cruiser which just sank on the black sea, they had a golden cross and embedded in that golden cross was a sliver of the true cross. this was on the tass news website, so i will say take it with a grain of salt,

but nevertheless, the idea that in the 21st—century you would put this forward to your people, that a piece of the true cross is on our flagship in the black sea is to me astonishing. the patriarch kirill- is a nasty piece of work. he let his priests bless the bombs that went to syria and crimea. - so obviously, their prayers were not strong enough. for the flagship, moskva. that didn't save it. catherine, it's interesting that kirill's title is the patriarch of moscow and all rus'. he happens to be the cartographer both by training and profession, before he became a priest. is there a kind of almost territorial claim built into that title? i think there is. i think there is a sense, in which he and others in the russian orthodox church see

ukraine, belarus, russia as part of one holy place and that they belong to one another. they talk sometimes about ukraine being a little russia, as if it is the little brother. and there is a way almost, the opponents of the war also talk about fraternity, they talk about the fratricidal war, there is a closeness between the two countries, there is proximity, but it is how you express that, that is obviously so different. what is interesting is that my two reporting trips in ukraine were mostly focused in lviv and odesa but this is the stronghold of the ukrainian catholic church, not aligned at all with orthodoxy but with the roman church. before it was ever part of russia, it was part of the polish

lithuanian commonwealth and the austro—hungarian empire, it is not so simple inside ukraine, it is not a uni sectarian place, where nationalism intervenes and the russian orthodox is a bigger brother, it's a much more complicated mix of christian churches, really, sects. one last thought for all of you, we will leave the polish lithuanian commonwealth, although if anyone is interested in that, bbc sounds has a great programme on exactly that subject and it's a really interesting history for those who wonder about democratic powers and consent of the people going back into the middle ages, but in terms of the roman catholic church, pope francis spoke out, this is easter weekend easter weekend, for the orthodox is next weekend. but he spoke out on good friday

and made a pointed statement, catherine, about the right of people under threat to defend themselves. it can't be a coincidence that he should choose to deliver that message this weekend in the middle of the war in ukraine. absolutely not and i'm sure we will hear more from him this weekend during his annual statement he makes to the city and the world from the balcony of saint peter's. he will speak about ukraine, i'm sure, but what you have to remember is he will make statements to the world, he is trying to be, i guess, seen as a peacemaker, but behind—the—scenes there is also vatican diplomacy going on, and he has the secretary of state and another archbishop, who will be working, and i know that they have, talking to russian politicians and ministers and also talking to kirill and his people too,

so it's a two—pronged thing, and there are various suggestions about the pope going to see kirill at some point. they have talked about him going to moscow and about him meeting injerusalem, about him going to poland, so there are discussions going on about an encounter. the church's diplomatic network is very alive at the moment. absolutely, this was an unprecedented thing, pope francis went to the russian embassy early on in the war to express his displeasure at what was going on. let's talk about the other big news this week, which was the french presidential election, round one, and marine le pen and emmanuel macron the obvious winners. the losers include the two parties that used to provide the president of the republic, certainly

since the change of the constitution back in the early 60s, the socialists and what they call the republicans. their performance, not to put too fine a point on it, was pathetic, less than 6% between them of those who voted, they were broad churches with huge numbers of faithful, what happened? they have collapsed _ and disappeared and i don't think they will come back. why have they collapsed? it's a long story that - started with the eruption on the political scene in france of the national front, - now known as rassemblement national, andjean—marie le pen, _ you may remember him, he's 95, i was allowed in a way to have a voice because of the change in voting . system by the socialist president. i remember it very well, i was a teenager when . the national front got 35 mps

in the national assembly, - i and instead of trying to find out i what it meant and perhaps grapple with the issue, because it was also the eruption of the second - generation of north african - immigrants, who were french, who were not passing visitors, l who wanted to talk about racism and multiculturalism, and jacques chirac, . the right—wing president, - or prime minister with mitterrand. not a marriage made in heaven! you thought about changing no more pmportionah — he just wanted to sweep the - far—right problem under the carpet. so, they haven't really had

a voice, very few mps. - but the problem has not left, and it is the third time - that we are faced with this very - stark choice of electing a democrat, whether it's on the right or left does not matter, and... - and a demagogue? exactly. martin newman is that unfair to her? no, it's_ martin newman is that unfair to her? no, it's not_ martin newman is that unfair to her? no, it's not unfair— martin newman is that unfair to her? no, it's not unfair at— martin newman is that unfair to her? no, it's not unfair at all. _ and they all had the same surname, le pen, this is the fifth in 20 years and three of them have had somebody called le pen. and if she is elected, _ she has already said to a belgian newspaper that jean marie will be at the elysee _ and the whole clan of . le pen will be in power! if macron wins the second round next month, he cannot run

again five years later. what happens then? because unless he will magic up some kind of success... this five year timeline, three years ago it was covid and six months ago... i think five years, that is the long run. look, i don't know. i think that parties do revive. and i don't follow socialist politics in france the way i did when i was going over at the very end of the president's rule. it happens, but they also provide a framework, starting something from scratch,

which is happy now, emmanuel macron came up with nothing and just invented a party, and that's unusual, and i'm not sure that is sustainable without a charismatic leader. it's not sustainable _ but the new generation of voters who are putting macron opposite le pen are saying, _ we don't want to vote. they have lost faith in the whole political system? and they are playing with fire, certainly, but they are not - as interested in party politics, they are interested _ in movements and growth. -- de growth. and there is a long—term tendency which started 30 years ago - and emmanuel macron is only in the face of that, _ the convergence of the bourgeoisie, from the right and left, _ who are pro—european and optimistic, and they want to adapt the model, . social, welfare state

to globalisation. - but they have the extreme left and the extreme right. - and they have voters circling them. so we have in effect something that is not so democratic, - a one—party government, - with emmanuel macron on top, so it is completely a recomposition i of the french political landscape, i but i don't think the left or right, the way we have known them, i are going to be back. can i pick up one last thought on france, this movement idea? putin has stylised the fight against ukraine, it's not about territory but values and beliefs and the decadence of the west, presumably the drug takers that putin talked about are interchangeable with the gay rights demonstrators. it's interesting... they are the decadent ones, you make a choice. we are seeing similar language from le pen, she has talked about the importance

of french tradition and civilisation, it feels like there is similar language there, this sense of people wanting to embrace some kind of past notion, some value that they feel is being lost. there seems to be a lot of othering and scapegoating going on, which is problematic, it is such a negative politics we are seeing. and there has been a bit of that in the attitudes to the movement, poorer, disaffected, particularly young muslim men and women, who are french by birth but had been treated as the other in politics. it's very interesting how - the different religions have been voting, and we had the figures.

it's interesting that _ the protestants, and there are not that many in france, i think 2.5 million, . they voted massively for macron, much higher than the average. i the catholics... especially, the practising catholics, have voted - more for le pen than the national average and less for the far left. _ and the muslims, the french muslims, have voted on the first round 69% - for the far left candidate, - so this is how religion plays out in french society but, _ on the other hand, unlike russia, i france is one of the top atheistl countries in the world, you know! and if you look at people, who say they are not - religious or simply atheist, i well, they are a bit on the left and right, and a bit macron.

let me ask you, michael, in the last three or four minutes we have about borisjohnson. will the british have lost theirfaith in their prime minister as a result of him being fined for breaching his own law on covid? it's impossible to tell. and luckily, we have the may local elections and we just have to be patient and wait. from what i can tell, what we talked about in france, most people who will sit around this table for any reason will think, you can't do that, you cannot break the rules, the laws, you just made, and so brazen fashion, even for a 50 quid fine, but i have a feeling there are a lot of people in the country who think, 50 quid? i got caught speeding the other day and that was 95 quid and three points on my licence! people will make their own decision about how that is.

and as for the rest of it, my guess is it's all priced in now, the way the country feels about boris, but i do think there is no election until 2024, so we will have to wait that long to find out. catherine, the interesting thing about that fixed penalty fine, when you look at the debates, part of the reason for that was them worried they would be so overwhelmed, the police and the courts especially in the middle of a pandemic with prosecuting people who broke the rules, this was the most efficient way of doing it, so it wasn't necessarily a judgment on how serious it was but more an administrative decision. i'm not sure that many people did break the rules in the end. people were stunned at quite how many parties there were in number 10. a remarkable number. you could say that boris has been lucky in that something else came along, i ukraine, to take the attention of him, but i wonder if his luck will run out because we now

have a cost of living crisis in this country and we may well start to see the impact of that when we have the elections in may, that is when people might vote according to their displeasure about that, and as is so often the case in politics, the economy plays so strongly. and we used to be rather snooty in this country about french politics on this question about rule breaking and apparently indifference to some of the stricter rules on how you raise funds for election campaigns, who you givejobs to and all the rest of it, is the boot now on the other foot? i think you have to distinguish - the british and their government, and there are a lot of people in the world who still highlyl regarded the british, _ their government is another story, i have stopped making predictions, it should have been—

gone, so many scandals. you only have to read - the ministerial code to know that is not propriety and integrity, and everything a british prime - minister is expected to be doing, so i have not lost faith _ in the british, i've lost complete i faith in the british prime minister. but as long as the tories are here. “ as —— as long as the tories back him, he is _ —— as long as the tories back him, he is here — as you were saying, - michael, another two years. they will back him unless they think they have a better candidate. and they don't at the moment. surely you must have a better candidate? l if the war gets heavy and people get drawn in, they might have to find a much more serious person. i don't want tojinx him.

the chair of the foreign affairs committee, former soldier? we are not there. it's not likely that we will get drawn— it's not likely that we will get drawn in _ i have a feeling we will talk about this for weeks to come, not least in a fortnight after those local election results. i hope you enjoy your easter, however you are celebrating. if you are celebrating watching this programme then a happy easter to you. from all of us on the programme, goodbye — hello there. it looks like the weather is going to call down a bit

from tomorrow, but today, most parts of the country will again be worn with some sunshine. we have got this change happening across the western most parts of the uk. ahead of that with the sunshine, pollen levels remaining high across much of england and wales. also across central and southern parts of scotland, where we have seen the best of the hazy sunshine. there is a bit more cloud across parts of scotland. the rain mainly affecting western isles this afternoon. continuing in northern ireland and rain pushing later in the day into western fringes of wales and the far south—west of england. ahead of that in the sunshine, temperatures are wildly 18 degrees —— widely. that band of rain continues to push its way eastwards overnight. it will be followed by some showers for northern ireland, into scotland and over the irish sea. the breeze will pick up as well. temperatures overnight will be six and 7 degrees.

as you can see, there is little or no rain moving across the midlands and southern england. the weather front is much weaker here and is more active further north. around the low pressure, we have got the stronger winds overnight and into tomorrow. the wind, more of a westerly and that will bring in cooler and fresher air. there is our weather fronts, cooler and fresher air. there is our weatherfronts, that cooler and fresher air. there is our weather fronts, that band cooler and fresher air. there is our weatherfronts, that band of cooler and fresher air. there is our weather fronts, that band of cloud there. the rain is a way into the note c. clouds giggling into the south and we will see some sunny spells. a few showers around. most of these are in the western parts of scotland. forall of of these are in the western parts of scotland. for all of us, of these are in the western parts of scotland. forall of us, it of these are in the western parts of scotland. for all of us, it will be cooler tomorrow but still 16 or 17 degrees with some sunshine towards south—eastern parts of england. heading into tuesday, it starts off chilly with showers from monday clearing away and we will see some more showers developing on tuesday. slow moving, perhaps heavy showers with sunshine around as well. temperatures are continuing to drop away. typically, 13 or 1a celsius in

the afternoon. through the rest of the afternoon. through the rest of the week, it remains dry. they showers do tend to fade away but we will see easterly winds picking up. that means temperatures are going to be near average and the best of the weather is likely to be in the west.

this is bbc news — welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. i'm shaun ley. our top stories: russia urges ukrainian forces in mariupol to surrender in order to save their lives — but there's no sign yet that they've laid down their arms. president zelensky warns there will be consequences, if russia takes action against the remaining troops in the city. pope francis has urged the call of peace to be heard, in what he called, an "easter of war" — as he delivered his "urbi et orbi" address in st peter's square. may there be peace for war—torn ukraine. so tried by the violence

and the destruction and senseless