this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the eu is looking to tighten the straitjacket around the russian economy by imposing a ban on russian oil imports by the end of the year, or next year in the case of hungary and slovakia. but budapest has steadfastly opposed talk of an energy embargo and often seems to view brussels with more distaste than moscow, regardless

of putin's invasion of ukraine. my guest is zoltan kovacs, the orban government's international spokesperson. so, whose side is hungary on? zoltan kovacs, in budapest, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for being with you.

well, thank you forjoining us. we have to start, i think, with the pressing matter of the eu and its latest round of sanctions that it intends to impose on russia. central to this is an oil embargo which will be phased in over time for all member states. hungary, it seems, would be given a little more time to stop using russian oil by the end of 2023. is that acceptable to your government? very shortly, no, it's not. because? the reasons are very simple and i believe we've been clear about them for the past, not only weeks, but basically months by now. and that is, for us, it's the hungarian interest and that is the hungarian population's and the hungarian economy's perspectives are the most important. that's what we have received a fourth—consecutive mandate for, by a very huge majority behind us, just a couple of weeks ago. and it's telling that, you know, we are dependent on russian oil 65%, when it arrives, and russian gas 84%. now, that makes it clear that what is being proposed on behalf of brussels and what we've seen today

on the table is very far from what we can live with and go with, not for the reasons of political taste or any kind of taste—like issue, but it's simply the hard, physical facts on the ground — there is no substitute. any such request, any such undertaking would result in the complete ruin of hungarian lives and the hungarian economy's state. you say you simply can't afford it, ie, you're suggesting to me you simply cannot do it. surely the truth is you will not do it, it is a choice you are making. other countries which are much more reliant on russian oil than you — including lithuania, gets 83% of its oil from russia, finland 80%, slovakia 74% — they do not appear to be minded to block the proposal for an embargo. they are determined to make it work, one way or another. why can't you take that attitude? well, i presume it's very

easy to make it black and white at your end, actually, when it's about the choice, but things are a lot more complicated than whether we will go for it or not go for it. again, the physical reality, the infrastructural reality on the ground is that hungary is a landlocked country, so simply there is no other way to bring oil and gas to the country than by pipelines. and the simple physical reality is that, against the efforts of this government, as a matter of fact, for the past 12 years, which was aiming for energy diversification, simply there is no alternative. there's no other method to bring energy, gas and oil supplies, to hungary than by pipeline. so, maybe the baltic states can substitute it for tankers because of their seasides and the harbours they have, hungary has no alternative. i believe, on behalf of politics, but also on behalf of our oil industry, recently we have made it very clear that the shortest period

is about three to four years, not to talk about the costs, which obviously are mounting. half a billion euros, half a billion us dollars, would be required actually to adjust the oil industry to the new reality. again, this government has done the most, actually, for the past 30 years... let me stop you, because you've already, if i may, iwant to stick with what you're going to do next, because ursula von der leyen, the commission chief, has made it plain that the commission intends to put this before all member states, this oil embargo. are you telling me, when it comes to coherent, cooperative eu action, you will exercise your veto? is that what you're going to do? shortly, yes, but at the end of the day, you have to again remember how the european union works. the proposals coming from brussels — and again, it's important to emphasise this is coming from brussels, that is the administrative, bureaucratic centre

of the european union, not from the member states — is proposing something that is unacceptable. they exactly know the hungarian position, they are familiar with the facts, they are familiar with the ratios, actually, of russian gas and oil in our energy portfolio and the importance for our economic system. so, they exactly know that what they are proposing is against hungarian interest, is against the possibility that is feasible on the ground. and if we do that, we completely are going to ruin hungarian economy. well, you know, i come back to, again, the examples from other member states. i was in bratislava just the other day, talking to eduard heger, the pm of slovakia. last time i checked, slovakia, too, was landlocked, slovakia, too, is heavily reliant on russian oil. he says his country is going to make every effort possible to diversify its energy sources, to move away from russian oil, he deeply regrets what he calls the strategic mistake made over many years of

overreliance on russian energy. are you prepared to say the same thing? hungary has made a massive strategic mistake, too, and it needs to put it right, yes? well, let me remind you that, as a matter of fact, as of today's discussions in the background, at least, we stand together with the czechs and the slovaks, indeed. and what appears to be a strategic mistake, say 10, 15 years ago, you shouldn't mix up the reality today, because 10, 15 years ago, the security situation of the continent was completely different. so, decisions made... yeah, but the important point here is not ten years ago, it'sjust one year ago, you in hungary made a strategic decision just last year to sign a new 15—year deal with gazprom. you also signed a deal for the russians to construct a new nuclear plant at paks.

you have taken these strategic decisions to rely on russia for energy in the last year. yeah, with a special regard to the fact that there was no other alternative on offer coming from the market. so, let me finish my previous sentence. and that is, yes, indeed, and as i suggested and emphasised for you, this is the government, this is the hungarian government, which, since the fall of communism, when we have inherited one—sided dependence on russian energy, has made most efforts, actually, and most results, and that is success in diversifying energy resources. and it is not simply our fault that the alternative pipelines, as a matter of fact, those coming from austria or those that are coming from the south, are either insufficient, actually, to provide for enough gas and oilfor the hungarian economy, or, as a matter of fact, coming from the west, from austria, they are carrying the same russian oil and gas as we are receiving

from eastern directions. so, again, it's a very complicated... well, the thing is, some things aren't complicated. here's a very simple question, be brief if you can — are you going to pay, as russia now demands that you do, for your oil and gas from russia in roubles? the eu says you mustn't, that would be a breach of contract and a breach of sanctions, but your pm seems to say, yeah, we'll pay in roubles if you really want us to, mr putin. so what's the truth here? the truth is that nine european countries are paying for gas and oil as it is required by russia for the moment, because that's a technical issue. so, you know exactly how it works, how the russians have put the new payment mechanism into work, and again, it's a must for the hungarian economy and the hungarian households that we have energy, so on that, we cannot compromise. so, you're paying in roubles. see, itjust seems, on a whole host of these issues — the sanctions issue,

the payment issue and on the arming of ukraine issue — you are completely out of step with fellow members of the european union and nato. does that worry you? no, because hungary has always been on the side of peace. so, if you take a look at the hungarian diplomatic efforts before the outbreak of the war and since the outbreak of the war, you would find that hungary is the loudest proponent of immediate truce and peace talks. we have a special reason for that, we have about 150,000 hungarians living just across the borders. as a matter of fact, the first air strike has just happened at the carpathian ukrainian region this morning, yesterday. so, we see how the war is raging, we exactly know, we can differentiate, who the aggressor, who the attacker was and we completely side by ukraine. we've stated it many times very clearly. we provide everything

that can be provided in a humanitarian way, both in hungary, but also sending aid to ukraine. tens of billions of hungarian forints have already been either spent on those who are arriving here, closing up to 700,000 so far, and billions of billions of hungarian forints have went to ukraine. don't ask something for something that the hungarian electorate a couple of weeks ago clearly said, no. i mean, the hungarian electorate gave us a mandate... i want to be clear what you mean when you talk about peace immediately. you said just recently — and you've just said it to me, i guess, in different words — "whatever it costs, however it's achieved, peace should come as soon as possible." i'm really struggling to understand what you mean. right now, russian forces, the aggressor forces, have occupied new swathes of ukrainian territory, they've killed probably tens of thousands of ukrainians in the process of that, they have committed egregious war crimes, which the icc, the international criminal

court, and the un are investigating. and you are saying to ukraine right now, you should stop fighting, stop defending your land. is that a credible message to deliver to your neighbours? but the credible message is very simple, to all warring partners, especially the one actually that started the war, you have to stop any and every warlike activities. go to the tables, talk about how to re—establish peace in ukraine. this is our neighbour. we exactly, again, know what is happening there, with a special regard to our fellow hungarians there. and let me remind you again, there was a... sorry, sorry, mr kovacs, please be simple with me — do you support ukraine's current resistance, its defence of its territory by military means, against the russian aggressor? yes or no? we do support ukraine, but not by military means.

you don't support ukraine using military means to defend its territory? that's right. that's not the decision of this hungarian government, but it's the message on behalf of the hungarian electorate, we have to respect. so, our mandate is not open. we have a tied, we have a closed mandate that's been decided by the hungarian electorate. record high participation, record high mandate coming on behalf of the hungarian electorate. this is simply the stance we have taken, and we have to stick to it. see, i'm frankly amazed that you sit with me in this interview and you say that sort of thing. you are the same mr kovacs who, on the anniversary every year of the hungarian uprising against soviet forces back in 1956, on every anniversary, you tweet things like this, which is taken from last year. you said, "soviet tanks rolled in to put down our hungarian revolution and met lion—hearted resistance. the occupiers won the fight on the streets,

but they never could win people's hearts and minds. we must always remember the heroes of �*56." you're a hungarian. you know what soviet imperialism, military imperialism meant. and you're telling me that you think the ukrainians should not be fighting for theirfreedom, for their independence, for their land? well, i never suggested that, and i don't believe that, from among the two of us — i'm a historian — you or anybody else should be giving me a historical lesson or a moralising lesson. you are representing a view and perspective that is coming thousands of miles away from the borders we have with ukraine, with a completely different historical experience. so, with all due respect, the hungarian stance is the hungarian stance. we are representing the hungarian people's best interest, not the british interest, not the western european interest and not the ukrainian interest. there is a difference between our perception of how things should be handled and what the situation is, or rather how the situation should be, can be, resolved.

and we just ask everyone actually, again, with all due respect, accept the hungarian stance, respect the will of the hungarian electorate, because that's binding. the hungarian government is not free to change this position. it has been given to us. we have to stick to it. i accord you that respect, and i know you're an historian. i also know you will have seen, just as i have, the pictures broadcast on russian state media of russian forces flying the soviet flag from towns and villages they have just taken by military force deep inside ukraine, re—establishing statues of lenin in some of those towns. does that mean nothing to you? does it not give you any sense that you must do all in your power to back ukraine's struggle for freedom? well, i can tell you that, exactly, we see what you see, maybe a lot more, actually, what you see,

what is happening. and again, with all due respect, take it as it is. the hungarian stance will not change just because of moralising and opinion, like, approaches and pressure that is coming on hungary. we see that coming from many different angles — from the press, from the media, the western media, european media. it is coming on us from, as a matter of fact, from ukraine. it is coming on us from brussels when it's about the embargo policy. hungarians... the hungarian stance has always been for the past 12 years. and if you take a look at the hungarian elections, again, four consecutive election victories are sending a very strong message. you've made that point. i don't today want to discuss... i don't want to discuss the health of hungary's democracy today. what i do want to discuss is what you are going to do around the geopolitics and the issues facing europe and its security. your neighbours in poland have expressed deep, deep

disappointment with your stand, yourfailure, even, as a government to condemn the mass killing of civilians in towns like bucha. while every other european leader was talking about war crimes, some even said that it was tantamount to genocide, viktor 0rban, your boss, was very noticeably silent. and the poles — and i'm talking now about yaroslaw kaczynski — said, "when 0rban says he cannot see what happened in bucha, i advise him to see an eye doctor." the poles used to be your allies. now they're disgusted with you. well, you can cite as many citations as you want. i was standing by his side, actually, at the first international press conference after the election victory. and i can tell you that he indeed has condemned what has happened in bucha and what is happening in ukraine. so, don't question the hungarian stance, because it's not going to help to enforce or force on us a different standpoint that we

have a mandate for. it's my question. it's my... it's myjob. it's myjob to question you. it's myjob to wonder, as we see the evidence from mariupol, from bucha, from a whole host of other towns and cities where, according to the un human rights chief michelle bachelet, civilians have been shelled arbitrarily, where schools and hospitals have been hit, it's myjob to ask, are you ever going to change your stance in budapest? not because of what you are suggesting, and that is your moralising or media perspective. no, it's not my moralising. it's my discussion of facts with you. yes, we are aware of the facts and we are aware, again, of the possibilities, if you like, the framework in which we can move. that has been provided by the hungarian electorate. we cannot change that. again, our hands are bound by the fact that we have been given a mandate very clearly based on hungarians' desire for peace, and that is the rejection of participation

in that war. do you see volodymyr zelensky, president of ukraine, as some sort of enemy? i'm just wondering why mr 0rban, after his election victory, said it was a triumph over the brussels bureaucrats, the soros empire and, he said, the ukrainian president. what did he mean by that? when you make citations, be precise because the prime minister mentioned who was attacking hungary in the midst of the election campaign. and as a matter of fact, that was very sad. and we have asked the ukrainians repeatedly to stop it, trying to... yeah, on that point, on that point, you had officials in your government claim that there was direct meddling in hungary's election by the ukrainian government. you were asked to provide evidence and you provide zero evidence. where is that evidence? the evidence is that our opposition — our past

opposition, actually, which is part of the hungarian parliament now — was in contact with the ukrainian president's team and the president himself and was offering a different perspective than what we have offered and by which we have won the election. that simply... it is simple as that. so, mingling in other countries' domestic politics is something we have always. . .was trying and successfully was avoiding, and that's only what we are asking from everyone. president zelensky... mr kovacs, president zelensky has listened to everything that you say, that viktor 0rban says, and he's quite simple. he says hungary, and in particular mr 0rban, have to make a choice. they have to decide whose side they are on. whose side are you on? yeah. and we made the choice. we are on the side of the ukrainian people and ukraine. how many times do you have to declare? again... but why is it, then, that the ukrainians not only don't believe that, they actually think... according to a national security adviser to the ukrainian president,

they fear that you have a separate agenda which is about somehow representing the ethnic hungarian population of the carpathia region and even, in the long run, hoping that you might acquire some new territory. now we come to the land and area of speculation and fairy tales and, with all due respect, stupidity and lies. lies are going to remain lies, whoever is trying to suggest it. and this is indeed... this is indeed we are asking for. don't put fuel on the fire when there is a problem in your country. suggesting that hungary has a different opinion or different interest in ukraine is a lie, a flat lie, that is not doing any good, actually, in the relationship of the two countries... yeah. well, you told the euobserver that mr 0rban had said that you will not send weapons to hungary because those weapons might be used against hungarian people.

what on earth was he talking about? the hungarian minority isjust living across the borders... you seriously think the ukrainian government might turn its guns not on the russian invaders but on the hungarian population — ukrainian population — in carpathia? you are certainly aware of the fact that those weapons supplies that are entering ukraine, admitted by the united states and other countries, they have no control where they land. let's end with where this leaves hungary, your stance on the ukraine war. i've just talked about the way in which the polish government appears disgusted with the stance you have taken. you've seen your ally in slovenia recently lose an election, and many believe it was because slovenians didn't want to see the "0rbanisation" of their country. you are more isolated, even within your eastern european region, than you have been for a very long time. does that worry you? look, you're using very strong language at times.

i don't mean that it is your language, but you're echoing and bringing in the arguments we see coming from different corners of europe — as a matter of fact, from our immediate neighbourhood. but again, we can understand the heated debate, the emotions involved. a cool—headed, strategic and national interest—based approach is what the hungarian stance is. right. but i only ask you whether you feel vulnerable... sorry, mr kovacs. we're nearly out of time. i only ask you whether you feel vulnerable because, as you know, brussels has launched a rule of law mechanism against your government now. you stand to be punished, not least very significant financial punishment, because of your failure to meet eu standards and values. and at the very same time, you're losing your friends in the region. that's not good, is it? especially that, what you are suggesting, actually... again, the use of words is very important. punishing is not exactly what you would expect from a bureaucratic centre

of the european union in face of the political realities on the ground, the will of the hungarian people and the hungarian government's stance on these issues. we all know that the rule of law mechanism, especially in the format it is being used against hungary, is a political witch hunt. it, again, as you suggested, is a political punishment because we don't fall in line. we've been through this for the past 12 years. i believe we are going to cope with this. all right. sadly, zoltan kovacs, we're out of time. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello. temperatures picked up a little across the uk wednesday afternoon,

thanks largely to more in the way of sunshine around, but between the sunny spells, there were also some hefty showers, particularly across the eastern side of the uk. some glorious sunshine, though, across south wales. temperatures in this region got up to 16—17 degrees. in the next few days, i think we can add at least a few more degrees onto that. as high pressure builds from the south—west, we pick up a south—westerly air stream, all areas are going to become milder. we'll see some fronts pushing towards scotland and northern ireland through thursday. there will be more cloud around here. there will also be some rain. but the milder air will still mean we see temperatures above the figures we've seen in recent days. england and wales, under the influence of the high pressure, could see a few patches of mist and fog first thing, but shaping up for a dry day with bright or sunny spells, temperatures potentially up to 20, maybe even 21 degrees here. further north, for scotland and northern ireland, rain clearing northern ireland. should leave us with 17 degrees as a high through the afternoon, 15—16 for scotland, because there will be more

cloud around here and some outbreaks of rain. thursday into friday, a weather front tries to slide south across the uk. running into the high pressure to the south, many parts of england and wales will get off to a dry start. rain into northern england through the morning starts to sink south towards wales through the afternoon, but perhaps not the heaviest of the rain for wales until we get to the evening. 20 degrees to the south of the front. under the front, the cloud, 15 perhaps. behind it, some brighter skies for scotland and northern ireland, and it will turn warmer in the sun. heavy rain overnight for wales, the south—east of england first thing into saturday but, actually, the weekend looking like it will essentially be a dry affair, as high pressure centres up across the uk once again. saturday, a lot of fine weather. a bit more cloud coming in off the north sea, and an onshore breeze could peg the temperatures back here, maybejustii in aberdeen, 13 in newcastle. many areas of the uk, though, looking at the mid to high teens, if not touching close to 20 degrees. sunday — change of wind direction. it should be warmer along

the north sea coasts, it should also be brighter, but i think later in the day, low pressure could start to edge in to the north—west of scotland. but still, temperatures high teens to perhaps the low 20s in some spots. now, the high looks like it's going to drift eastwards into the new week, however, and allow areas of low pressure to start to make stronger inroads from the atlantic, as ourjet stream basically shifts further south and sits across the uk. monday — still largely fine for england and wales, perhaps a few punchy showers around in the east first thing. still warm as well. warm for scotland and northern ireland, but weather fronts making better inroads here, stronger winds and some rain from time to time. so there's the jet stream early next week, running directly across the uk, quite a strong jet, sweeping areas of low pressure through to the north, but later on in the week, notice what that jet tries to do once again. it tries to bump its way north. let's look at that when we put the pressure pattern on and the air mass. here we go, wednesday, quite a deep area of low pressure running through to the north

of the uk, but look to the south, how thatjet, particularly as it pulls north towards the end of next week, hooks into some much warmer air from the near continent. so next week looks like we will have some wetter and windier weather across the northern half of the uk to start. to the south, not that much in the way of rainfall, i suspect, but potentially temperatures towards the mid—20s late next week. stay tuned.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i. the headlines: ukraine's abandoned children, displaced by the war, a bbc investigation finds some of the most vulnerable have been left behind. because of their disabilities they are not treated as human beings, they are only kept alive here. and is not a problem of the institution, is a problem of the system. in the besieged port of mariupol, officials say russia has launched a major assault on the remaining ukrainian forces there. hungary says it will veto a proposed eu—wide ban on imports of russian oil put forward by the european commission.

we'll have the latest reaction from brussels. also in the programme: