this is bbc news. the headlines: a further 50 civilians have been evacuated from the azovstal steelworks, in the besieged ukrainian city of mariupol. the figure was confirmed separately by the ukrainian deputy prime minister, and russia's ministry of defence — which said women, the elderly and 11 children were among those rescued. an explosion at a luxury hotel in the cuban capital, havana has killed at least 22 people and left more than 60 injured. the blast ripped through several floors of the hotel saratoga. the police believe the blast was the result of a gas accident. the conservative party has lost almost 500 seats in local elections across the uk. in england the liberal democrats make big gains.

the prime minister, borisjohnson, admitted that his party experienced a "tough night" in some areas. now on bbc news...dateline london with shaun ley. welcome to the programme which brings together leading uk columnists with a foreign correspondence who broadcast to audiences back home from the dateline london. joining us at the end of this week in the

united kingdom. as a baroness she is in the house of lords but she does not set for any political party. isabel hilton is the founder of china dialogue which seeks to promote understanding of china's environmental challenges as well as being a foreign correspondent and is a regular correspondent and is a regular correspondent in british newspapers. penny is the london based editor of the la times. whilst the us west coast sleeps he had stayed at newspaper. thank you for being with us. in a democracy, here is thejudge? what sort of verdict has been delivered on borisjohnson? the united states is a democracy, too but one with the supreme court justices too but one with the supreme courtjustices get too but one with the supreme court justices get to too but one with the supreme courtjustices get to decide whether or not a law is constitutional. are they about to declare that the nationwide right to abortion is not? and monday's victory day in russia. a country where vladimir putin is thejudge. what

a country where vladimir putin is the judge. what will his speech to crowds in moscow tell us about the war in ukraine? let's start there if we can. how do you think this year's victory parade is likely to be? one of their difficulties about this year is that there is not a fresh victory which i am sure was the ambition when this whole terrible war started. what has actually been celebrated as their victory over germany and the nazis in world war ii in which tens of millions of russians died so it is a bit of a holy day for russia. that enormous sacrifice, that victory. it seems to me that the dangerous thing for us in what putin might do if this is that, in the absence of a victory, and he has lost 11 generals, 10,000 troops, a lot of kit, that he will seek to link up his claim that he is dean that's a fine ukraine with a victory over the

nazis in world war ii and that is a further escalation, i think. a further mobilisation of russian society and perhaps an escalation into adjacent geographies. he has to come up with something from his perspective, positive and that only means, i think he is not a man who backs down. that means going further and that is why it is a very worrying moment. kamala. it it is a very worrying moment. kamala. , , ., ., kamala. it seems to me that it is the ultimate _ kamala. it seems to me that it is the ultimate irony, - kamala. it seems to me that it is the ultimate irony, isn't - is the ultimate irony, isn't it? — is the ultimate irony, isn't it? that _ is the ultimate irony, isn't it? that you are celebrating victory _ it? that you are celebrating victory over a natty aggressor where _ victory over a natty aggressor where he — victory over a natty aggressor where he himself visually behaving in exactly the same way and _ behaving in exactly the same way and this is to be a tragedy of the — way and this is to be a tragedy of the situation. but i wonder her from _ of the situation. but i wonder her from over is how many russians_ her from over is how many russians actually see it like that? — russians actually see it like that? we know about telegram and some of the underground media — and some of the underground media but what is the general view— media but what is the general view of— media but what is the general view of the russian public? do they— view of the russian public? do they stitt— view of the russian public? do they still believe in him and in this— they still believe in him and in this war that he is promoting? | in this war that he is promoting?- in this war that he is promoting? in this war that he is ”romotin ? ~ ., promoting? i think we have known that _ promoting? i think we have known that most _ promoting? i think we have known that most russians, | promoting? i think we have i known that most russians, it seems, — known that most russians, it seems, stitt— known that most russians, it seems, still the _ known that most russians, it seems, still the majority- known that most russians, it seems, still the majority get| seems, still the majority get their— seems, still the majority get their view— seems, still the majority get their view from _ seems, still the majority get their view from television . seems, still the majority get| their view from television and that— their view from television and that is— their view from television and that is controlled _ their view from television and that is controlled by- their view from television and that is controlled by the - that is controlled by the

russian _ that is controlled by the russian state _ that is controlled by the russian state at - that is controlled by the russian state at this - that is controlled by the . russian state at this point that is controlled by the - russian state at this point was that the — russian state at this point was that the independent - russian state at this point was that the independent outlets l that the independent outlets are all— that the independent outlets are all gone _ that the independent outlets are all gone. they— that the independent outlets are all gone. they have - that the independent outlets are all gone. they have fledl that the independent outlets l are all gone. they have fled to other— are all gone. they have fled to other pieces _ are all gone. they have fled to other places or— are all gone. they have fled to other places or have _ are all gone. they have fled to. other places or have completely shut down — other places or have completely shutdown altogether _ other places or have completely shutdown altogether and - shutdown altogether and therefore _ shutdown altogether and therefore alternate - shutdown altogether and - therefore alternate messages are hot— therefore alternate messages are not getting _ therefore alternate messages are not getting through - therefore alternate messages are not getting through and l therefore alternate messages l are not getting through and has isairet— are not getting through and has isabei saying. _ are not getting through and has isabel saying, too, _ are not getting through and has isabel saying, too, in— are not getting through and has isabel saying, too, in terms - are not getting through and has isabel saying, too, in terms ofl isabel saying, too, in terms of the message _ isabel saying, too, in terms of the message to _ isabel saying, too, in terms of the message to put _ isabel saying, too, in terms of the message to put out - isabel saying, too, in terms of the message to put out there, j the message to put out there, perhaps— the message to put out there, perhaps there _ the message to put out there, perhaps there might _ the message to put out there, perhaps there might be - the message to put out there, perhaps there might be a - perhaps there might be a victory— perhaps there might be a victory to— perhaps there might be a victory to celebrate - perhaps there might be a victory to celebrate if- perhaps there might be a victory to celebrate if the j victory to celebrate if the russian _ victory to celebrate if the russian forces _ victory to celebrate if the russian forces can - victory to celebrate if the russian forces can finally match _ russian forces can finally match those _ russian forces can finally match those held - russian forces can finally match those held at - russian forces can finally- match those held at defenders in match those held at defenders ih mariupoi— match those held at defenders in mariupol but _ match those held at defenders in mariupol but absent - match those held at defenders in mariupol but absent that. match those held at defenders in mariupol but absent that it i in mariupol but absent that it has been _ in mariupol but absent that it has been almost _ in mariupol but absent that it has been almost a _ in mariupol but absent that it has been almost a disaster. in mariupol but absent that iti has been almost a disaster for russia — has been almost a disaster for russia irr— has been almost a disaster for russia in many— has been almost a disaster for russia in many ways - has been almost a disaster for russia in many ways but - has been almost a disaster fori russia in many ways but you're not going — russia in many ways but you're not going to _ russia in many ways but you're not going to see _ russia in many ways but you're not going to see that, - russia in many ways but you're not going to see that, i - russia in many ways but you're not going to see that, i don't . not going to see that, i don't think. — not going to see that, i don't think. irr— not going to see that, i don't think. ihany— not going to see that, i don't think, in any other _ not going to see that, i don't think, in any other russian . think, in any other russian propaganda _ think, in any other russian propaganda. will— think, in any other russian propaganda. will there - think, in any other russian propaganda. will there bel think, in any other russian . propaganda. will there be an actual— propaganda. will there be an actual escalation _ propaganda. will there be an actual escalation of- actual escalation of hostilities? - actual escalation of hostilities? that, . actual escalation of hostilities? that, i| actual escalation of- hostilities? that, ithink, also, _ hostilities? that, ithink, also, is _ hostilities? that, ithink, also, is unclear. - hostilities? that, ithink, also, is unclear. i- hostilities? that, ithink, also, is unclear. i think. also, is unclear. i think putin. _ also, is unclear. i think putin. as _ also, is unclear. i thinkj putin, as unpredictable also, is unclear. i think. putin, as unpredictable as also, is unclear. i think- putin, as unpredictable as you might— putin, as unpredictable as you might be, _ putin, as unpredictable as you might be, is— putin, as unpredictable as you might be, is not— putin, as unpredictable as you might be, is not completely. might be, is not completely mad~ — might be, is not completely mad~ he _ might be, is not completely mad. he knows— might be, is not completely mad. he knows that - might be, is not completely. mad. he knows that continued tosses— mad. he knows that continued tosses which _ mad. he knows that continued losses which will— mad. he knows that continued losses which will be _ mad. he knows that continued losses which will be harder - mad. he knows that continuedl losses which will be harder and harder— losses which will be harder and harder to — losses which will be harder and harder to hide _ losses which will be harder and harder to hide would _ losses which will be harder and harder to hide would be - harder to hide would be difficult _ harder to hide would be difficult to— harder to hide would be difficult to sustain - harder to hide would be difficult to sustain and i harder to hide would be. difficult to sustain and so harder to hide would be i difficult to sustain and sol think— difficult to sustain and sol think we _ difficult to sustain and sol think we will— difficult to sustain and sol think we will certainly- difficult to sustain and sol think we will certainly see | difficult to sustain and so i i think we will certainly see a lot of— think we will certainly see a lot ofjingoism _ think we will certainly see a lot ofjingoism and - think we will certainly see a i lot ofjingoism and nationalism and dispiay_ lot ofjingoism and nationalism and display entities, _ lot ofjingoism and nationalism and display entities, as - lot ofjingoism and nationalism and display entities, as you - and display entities, as you say, — and display entities, as you say, a _ and display entities, as you say, a central— and display entities, as you say, a central point - and display entities, as you say, a central point of- and display entities, as you i say, a central point of russian identity— say, a central point of russian identity in _ say, a central point of russian identity in terms _ say, a central point of russian identity in terms of _

say, a central point of russianl identity in terms of overcoming nazism — identity in terms of overcoming nazism but— identity in terms of overcoming nazism but whether— identity in terms of overcoming nazism but whether it - identity in terms of overcoming nazism but whether it really. nazism but whether it really means — nazism but whether it really means that _ nazism but whether it really means that we _ nazism but whether it really means that we will - nazism but whether it really means that we will be - nazism but whether it reallyl means that we will be seeing nazism but whether it really. means that we will be seeing a greater— means that we will be seeing a greater escalation _ means that we will be seeing a greater escalation of— means that we will be seeing a greater escalation of armed . greater escalation of armed hostilities, _ greater escalation of armed hostilities, i— greater escalation of armed hostilities, i am _ greater escalation of armed hostilities, i am not - greater escalation of armed hostilities, i am not sure. l greater escalation of armed . hostilities, i am not sure. find hostilities, i am not sure. and on the question _ hostilities, i am not sure. and on the question of— hostilities, i am not sure.- on the question of overcoming nazis, or three of you now mention the analogy with the 30s and 40s. have we learned the lessons, do you think, from the lessons, do you think, from the 30s? to detect in the response to putting's actions towards ukraine a sense of that history and of not allowing the mistakes of the past to be repeated?— mistakes of the past to be repeated? obviously it has taken a while, _ repeated? obviously it has taken a while, hasn't - repeated? obviously it has taken a while, hasn't it? i repeated? obviously it has l taken a while, hasn't it? and they're — taken a while, hasn't it? and they're now feeling that the end of— they're now feeling that the end of history has not arrived and _ end of history has not arrived and that— end of history has not arrived and that particularly for germany, his position has been fascinating in this period. there's— fascinating in this period. there's been a big wake—up call and i_ there's been a big wake—up call and i do — there's been a big wake—up call and i do actually think that although the germans have been quite _ although the germans have been quite sluggish on oil and gas where — quite sluggish on oil and gas where there will expose because they spent 20 years, unfortunately, ignoring the possibility of this debate, actually the chancellor has reversed a lot of the previous

chancellor's policy quite quickly. and there we can all comptaih _ quickly. and there we can all complain i think the eu and europe _ complain i think the eu and europe have galvanised themselves in a way that they should — themselves in a way that they should have done after crimea. welt, _ should have done after crimea. well, indeed, the tragedy was we don't learn those lessons in 2014 and had bv might not be in this position.— this position. now common sense, this position. now common sense. this _ this position. now common sense, this takes _ this position. now common sense, this takes us - this position. now common| sense, this takes us further neatly into domestic politics because energy is one aspect of the cost of living and everybody now seems to be using that term. we have inflation running and the premise is that it could be 10% in due course. interest rates going up both in the united states dramatically, the united states dramatically, the first time in 22 years they have gone up that much in one go. similarly, we had an interest rate rise in the week just gone from the bank of england. this is the issue now, isn't it? for domestic politics. regardless of election results. this is what will shape politics in the next couple of years, is that fair, do you think? i couple of years, is that fair, do you think?—

do you think? i think it is sliuhtl do you think? i think it is slightly more _ do you think? i think it is| slightly more complicated do you think? i think it is - slightly more complicated than that _ slightly more complicated than that i— slightly more complicated than that. i think clearly this is the — that. i think clearly this is the issue _ that. i think clearly this is the issue of the moment. people are really— the issue of the moment. people are really worried about the cost — are really worried about the cost of _ are really worried about the cost of living. we don't know how — cost of living. we don't know how temporary this inflation spike — how temporary this inflation spike will be in a lot of economies until now have been saying — economies until now have been saying this is really only about— saying this is really only about energy. it is a huge supply— about energy. it is a huge supply shock but it is very transitory. a supply shock but it is very transitory-— supply shock but it is very transitory. a lot of it was to do with covariate. - transitory. a lot of it was to do with covariate. and - transitory. a lot of it was to do with covariate. and the i do with covariate. and the covid recovery, _ do with covariate. and the covid recovery, exactly. . do with covariate. and the l covid recovery, exactly. and the bank— covid recovery, exactly. and the bank of england's actions and other polity executives suggest then i worry this is not suggest then i worry this is hot as— suggest then i worry this is not as transitory and inflation couid — not as transitory and inflation could really take hold but in terms — could really take hold but in terms of— could really take hold but in terms of the political landscape of the uk, i mean, and— landscape of the uk, i mean, and having just had local elections i think what we have seen — elections i think what we have seen is — elections i think what we have seen is not a big backlash against _ seen is not a big backlash against this government. and we have _ against this government. and we have not— against this government. and we have not seen labour doing as wett— have not seen labour doing as well as— have not seen labour doing as well as it _ have not seen labour doing as well as it ought to have done for that— well as it ought to have done for that the liberal democrats have — for that the liberal democrats have done a bit better but the truth — have done a bit better but the truth is — have done a bit better but the truth is that actually, kier starmer— truth is that actually, kier starmer has not broken through. the labour— starmer has not broken through. the labour leader. find starmer has not broken through. the labour leader.— the labour leader. and the way we would have _

the labour leader. and the way we would have expected - the labour leader. and the way we would have expected and i the labour leader. and the way i we would have expected and that raises _ we would have expected and that raises questions now about personality and conviction. it is not — personality and conviction. it is noti'ust_ personality and conviction. it is notjust about policy. is is notjust about policy. is interesting you use the word conviction because he faces a police investigation into a lockdown event exactly what he criticised the prime minister far. that doesn't help him, does it? you'll be a distraction whatever message labour was hoping to get out this week. labour was hoping to get out this week-— labour was hoping to get out this week. . , ., ., ., this week. and d thanks of that an ument this week. and d thanks of that argument they _ this week. and d thanks of that argument they would _ this week. and d thanks of that argument they would make - this week. and d thanks of that l argument they would make about party— argument they would make about party gait — argument they would make about party gait about _ argument they would make about party gait about government - party gait about government does — party gait about government does not _ party gait about government does not obey— party gait about government does not obey its _ party gait about government does not obey its own - party gait about government does not obey its own rulesl party gait about government. does not obey its own rules and with— does not obey its own rules and with it _ does not obey its own rules and with it try— does not obey its own rules and with it by sleaze _ does not obey its own rules and with it by sleaze now _ does not obey its own rules and with it by sleaze now as - does not obey its own rules and with it by sleaze now as well. i with it by sleaze now as well. in with it by sleaze now as well. in terms _ with it by sleaze now as well. in terms of— with it by sleaze now as well. in terms of the _ with it by sleaze now as well. in terms of the cost - with it by sleaze now as well. in terms of the cost of- with it by sleaze now as well. in terms of the cost of living. j in terms of the cost of living. if in terms of the cost of living. it it _ in terms of the cost of living. it it is — in terms of the cost of living. it it is a — in terms of the cost of living. if it is a durable _ in terms of the cost of living. if it is a durable issue, - in terms of the cost of living. if it is a durable issue, as - if it is a durable issue, as we've _ if it is a durable issue, as we've seen— if it is a durable issue, as we've seen in— if it is a durable issue, as we've seen in the - if it is a durable issue, as we've seen in the us - if it is a durable issue, as we've seen in the us and| we've seen in the us and britain _ we've seen in the us and britain and— we've seen in the us and britain and in— we've seen in the us and britain and in all- we've seen in the us and - britain and in all democracies, it hits — britain and in all democracies, it hits the _ britain and in all democracies, it hits the pocket _ britain and in all democracies, it hits the pocket book, - britain and in all democracies, it hits the pocket book, that. it hits the pocket book, that is what _ it hits the pocket book, that is what really _ it hits the pocket book, that is what really matters. - it hits the pocket book, that| is what really matters. party gait, — is what really matters. party gait, that _ is what really matters. party gait, that can— is what really matters. party gait, that can be _ is what really matters. partyj gait, that can be weathered, and — gait, that can be weathered, and a — gait, that can be weathered, and a couple _ gait, that can be weathered, and a couple of— gait, that can be weathered, and a couple of years' - gait, that can be weathered, and a couple of years' time i and a couple of years' time when — and a couple of years' time when the _ and a couple of years' time when the general- and a couple of years' time when the general electionl and a couple of years' time - when the general election rolls around — when the general election rolls around that— when the general election rolls around that will— when the general election rolls around that will be _ when the general election rolls around that will be nothing - when the general election rolls around that will be nothing if. around that will be nothing if people — around that will be nothing if people find _ around that will be nothing if people find that _ around that will be nothing if people find that they- around that will be nothing if people find that they cannotl people find that they cannot heat — people find that they cannot heat their— people find that they cannot heat their homes _ people find that they cannot heat their homes or - people find that they cannot heat their homes or they. people find that they cannot - heat their homes or they cannot put food — heat their homes or they cannot put food on _ heat their homes or they cannot put food on the _ heat their homes or they cannot put food on the table _ heat their homes or they cannot put food on the table as - heat their homes or they cannot put food on the table as they i put food on the table as they have — put food on the table as they have done _ put food on the table as they have done before. _ put food on the table as they have done before. the- put food on the table as they have done before.— put food on the table as they have done before. the foot on the table _ have done before. the foot on the table are _ have done before. the foot on the table are something - have done before. the foot on the table are something that i the table are something that apps they will need to remember because other big issue around ukraine nobody is planting.

staples have already gone up significantly anyway of the past couple of years. you'll make a huge supply of wheat to the world but also india who is another major wheat grower has had 45 degrees temperatures already this year so the spring planting in india has gone extremely poorly. we are going to have a real crunch on grain supplies which will last at least a year and that is going to destabilise a lot of poorer countries and it is going to hit people in this country who are already rather marginal on affordability of food and energy. just in domestic politics, camilla, absolutely hear what you're saying about kier starmer. labour will be disappointed not to be further ahead than they are clearly with what can be no more than two years into the general election. is there a risk for the government in that strong performance from the liberal democrats because the 97 result was terrific for labour, even kier starmer�*s closest allies would not claim he is the tony blair, he does not have the

star quality but part of that story was how well the lib dems did in the combination that absolutely devastated, decimated as may be a better word, conservatives.- word, conservatives. there is clearly a _ word, conservatives. there is clearly a possibility _ word, conservatives. there is clearly a possibility of - word, conservatives. there is clearly a possibility of a - clearly a possibility of a paci

johnson. there is a more profound _ johnson. there is a more profound lack _ johnson. there is a more profound lack of - johnson. there is a more i profound lack of confidence johnson. there is a more - profound lack of confidence in the british constitution and democracy. i think people really, really fed up. the possibility of a packed brings back the idea that finally this dogs breakfast of a british constitution and electoral system might get some serious attention. because if you look across the election that we have just had it is only in england that first past the post system operates. in local elections. in every level of government except westminster outside of england people use one proportional system or another. ~ one proportional system or another-— one proportional system or another. ~ f , another. when they're sending them to the — another. when they're sending them to the scottish _ another. when they're sending l them to the scottish parliament it is proportional representation. it is proportional re - resentation. . , ., representation. and the same with councillors. _ representation. and the same with councillors. so _ representation. and the same i with councillors. so everywhere exce -t with councillors. so everywhere except from _ with councillors. so everywhere except from england. _ with councillors. so everywhere except from england. since - with councillors. so everywhere | except from england. since 1922 we have had two governments in this country elected with the

majority of the popular vote. when in 1931 and 1935. every other government has been has held power to despite the fact most people who voted did not want it. ~ ., ., want it. when the howard referendum _ want it. when the howard referendum on _ want it. when the howard referendum on the - want it. when the howard l referendum on the question want it. when the howard - referendum on the question the publicly— referendum on the question the publicly was totally uninterested.- publicly was totally uninterested. . ., uninterested. that was more recent history. _ uninterested. that was more recent history. you - uninterested. that was more recent history. you might. uninterested. that was more recent history. you might be j recent history. you might be less— recent history. you might be less now— recent history. you might be less now that _ recent history. you might be less now that was _ recent history. you might be less now that was don't - recent history. you might be less now that was don't hold j recent history. you might be i less now that was don't hold a referendum _ less now that was don't hold a referendum on— less now that was don't hold a referendum on constitutional. referendum on constitutional issues — referendum on constitutional issues there _ referendum on constitutional issues. there are _ referendum on constitutional issues. there are mirror- referendum on constitutional. issues. there are mirror recent examples — issues. there are mirror recent examples of— issues. there are mirror recent examples of how— issues. there are mirror recent examples of how that - issues. there are mirror recent examples of how that can - issues. there are mirror recent examples of how that can go i examples of how that can go wrong — examples of how that can go wrong i— examples of how that can go wronu. ., ., wrong. i wonder if a referendum miaht be wrong. i wonder if a referendum might be the — wrong. i wonder if a referendum might be the way _ wrong. i wonder if a referendum might be the way out _ wrong. i wonder if a referendum might be the way out of- wrong. i wonder if a referendum might be the way out of the - might be the way out of the current crisis potentially engulfing the us supreme court. tell us what week and why it is so significant. fill tell us what week and why it is so significant.— so significant. of course we have a written _ so significant. of course we have a written constitutionl so significant. of course we i have a written constitution and that what — have a written constitution and that what you _ have a written constitution and that what you have _ have a written constitution and that what you have in - have a written constitution and that what you have in this - that what you have in this country. _ that what you have in this country. an— that what you have in this country, an unwritten - that what you have in thisl country, an unwritten one. that what you have in this - country, an unwritten one. that gives _ country, an unwritten one. that gives paris— country, an unwritten one. that gives paris to _ country, an unwritten one. that gives paris to three _ country, an unwritten one. that gives paris to three branches i gives paris to three branches of government— gives paris to three branches of government and _ gives paris to three branches of government and we - gives paris to three branches of government and we have i gives paris to three branches. of government and we have at the top — of government and we have at the top of— of government and we have at the top of the _ of government and we have at the top of the judicial- of government and we have at the top of the judicial branch, i the top of the judicial branch, the top of the judicial branch, the supreme _ the top of the judicial branch, the supreme court. _ the top of the judicial branch, the supreme court. now, i the top of the judicial branch, | the supreme court. now, they are presented _ the supreme court. now, they are presented with _ the supreme court. now, they are presented with a - the supreme court. now, they are presented with a case i the supreme court. now, they are presented with a case that would — are presented with a case that would allow— are presented with a case that would allow them _ are presented with a case that would allow them to _ are presented with a case that would allow them to reverse l are presented with a case that would allow them to reverse a ruling — would allow them to reverse a

ruling that _ would allow them to reverse a ruling that tested _ would allow them to reverse a ruling that tested for- would allow them to reverse a ruling that tested for nearly i ruling that tested for nearly 50 years _ ruling that tested for nearly 50 years that _ ruling that tested for nearly 50 years that has _ ruling that tested for nearly 50 years that has allowed . ruling that tested for nearly - 50 years that has allowed women to have _ 50 years that has allowed women to have abortions _ 50 years that has allowed women to have abortions legally- to have abortions legally throughout _ to have abortions legally throughout the - to have abortions legally throughout the country, | to have abortions legally. throughout the country, not just— throughout the country, not just their— throughout the country, not just their particular- throughout the country, not just their particular state i throughout the country, noti just their particular state but nationwide _ just their particular state but nationwide. the _ just their particular state but nationwide. the arguments. just their particular state but . nationwide. the arguments for this actually— nationwide. the arguments for this actually came _ nationwide. the arguments for this actually came before - nationwide. the arguments for this actually came before the l this actually came before the court — this actually came before the courti'ust_ this actually came before the courti'ust a _ this actually came before the court just a couple _ this actually came before the courtjust a couple of, - this actually came before the courtjust a couple of, about| courtjust a couple of, about five — courtjust a couple of, about five months _ courtjust a couple of, about five months ago _ courtjust a couple of, about five months ago and - courtjust a couple of, about five months ago and it - courtjust a couple of, about five months ago and it was i five months ago and it was already— five months ago and it was already apparent— five months ago and it was already apparent then i five months ago and it was already apparent then thatj five months ago and it was i already apparent then that this conservative _ already apparent then that this conservative court, _ already apparent then that this conservative court, because i already apparent then that this conservative court, because it| conservative court, because it is now — conservative court, because it is now 6- _ conservative court, because it is now 6- to _ conservative court, because it is now 6- to be _ conservative court, because it is now 6— to be in— conservative court, because it is now 6— to be in favour- conservative court, because it is now 6— to be in favour of. is now 6— to be in favour of conservative _ is now 6— to be in favour of conservative justices, i is now 6— to be in favour of conservativejustices, is. is now 6— to be in favour of. conservative justices, is going to strike — conservative justices, is going to strike it _ conservative justices, is going to strike it down _ conservative justices, is going to strike it down but - conservative justices, is going to strike it down but once i conservative justices, is goingj to strike it down but once that draft — to strike it down but once that draft opinion _ to strike it down but once that draft opinion got _ to strike it down but once that draft opinion got leaked - to strike it down but once that draft opinion got leaked last l draft opinion got leaked last week— draft opinion got leaked last week which— draft opinion got leaked last week which is _ draft opinion got leaked last week which is actually- draft opinion got leaked last week which is actually quite | draft opinion got leaked last. week which is actually quite a major— week which is actually quite a major event _ week which is actually quite a major event in _ week which is actually quite a major event in the _ week which is actually quite a major event in the history- major event in the history because _ major event in the history because it _ major event in the history because it is _ major event in the history because it is rarely- major event in the history because it is rarely ever. because it is rarely ever happened _ because it is rarely ever happened. it— because it is rarely ever happened. it was - because it is rarely ever happened. it was like . because it is rarely ever. happened. it was like the difference _ happened. it was like the difference between - happened. it was like the i difference between knowing something _ difference between knowing something is _ difference between knowing something is going - difference between knowing something is going to- difference between knowing i something is going to happen in the emotional— something is going to happen in the emotional impact— something is going to happen in the emotional impact of- something is going to happen in the emotional impact of it - the emotional impact of it actually— the emotional impact of it actually becoming - the emotional impact of iti actually becoming seeming reaiity _ actually becoming seeming reality and _ actually becoming seeming reality and it _ actually becoming seeming reality and it has _ actually becoming seeming reality and it has now- actually becoming seeming reality and it has nowjust i reality and it has nowjust expose _ reality and it has nowjust expose this _ reality and it has nowjust expose this incredible i reality and it has nowjust i expose this incredible divide that— expose this incredible divide that we _ expose this incredible divide that we have _ expose this incredible divide that we have in _ expose this incredible divide that we have in the - expose this incredible divide that we have in the us- expose this incredible divide that we have in the us on. that we have in the us on abortion _ that we have in the us on abortion. and _ that we have in the us on abortion. and i— that we have in the us on abortion. and i think- that we have in the us on abortion. and i think it. that we have in the us on abortion. and i think it is| abortion. and i think it is also _ abortion. and i think it is also beginning _ abortion. and i think it is also beginning to - abortion. and i think it is also beginning to call- abortion. and i think it isi also beginning to call into abortion. and i think it is- also beginning to call into the legitimacy— also beginning to call into the legitimacy of— also beginning to call into the legitimacy of this _ also beginning to call into the legitimacy of this high - also beginning to call into the legitimacy of this high court i legitimacy of this high court because _ legitimacy of this high court because it _ legitimacy of this high court because it is _ legitimacy of this high court because it is so _ legitimacy of this high court because it is so stacked i legitimacy of this high court because it is so stacked in. legitimacy of this high court . because it is so stacked in one direction — because it is so stacked in one direction three _ because it is so stacked in one direction three of— because it is so stacked in one direction three of his - because it is so stacked in one direction three of his justices i direction three of hisjustices were — direction three of hisjustices were appointed _ direction three of hisjustices were appointed by— direction three of hisjustices were appointed by a - direction three of his justices. were appointed by a president who did — were appointed by a president who did not _ were appointed by a president who did not win— were appointed by a president who did not win the _

were appointed by a president who did not win the popular. who did not win the popular vote, — who did not win the popular vote, who _ who did not win the popular vote, who were _ who did not win the popular vote, who were confirmed i who did not win the popular. vote, who were confirmed by senate — vote, who were confirmed by senate to— vote, who were confirmed by senate to represent - vote, who were confirmed by senate to represent a - vote, who were confirmed by senate to represent a party. senate to represent a party that _ senate to represent a party that also — senate to represent a party that also have, _ senate to represent a party that also have, a _ senate to represent a party that also have, a minority. that also have, a minority support— that also have, a minority support in— that also have, a minority support in the _ that also have, a minority support in the country. i that also have, a minority. support in the country. this that also have, a minority- support in the country. this is realty— support in the country. this is really bringing _ support in the country. this is really bringing up— support in the country. this isi really bringing up fundamental questions _ really bringing up fundamental questions of _ really bringing up fundamental questions of democracy - really bringing up fundamental questions of democracy put i really bringing up fundamental questions of democracy put up changing — questions of democracy put up changing it. _ questions of democracy put up changing it, however, - questions of democracy put up changing it, however, that i questions of democracy put up changing it, however, that thej changing it, however, that the referenda _ changing it, however, that the referenda are _ changing it, however, that the referenda are trying _ changing it, however, that the referenda are trying to - changing it, however, that the referenda are trying to amend| referenda are trying to amend the constitution _ referenda are trying to amend the constitution is _ referenda are trying to amend the constitution is incredibly. the constitution is incredibly difficult _ the constitution is incredibly difficult. it— the constitution is incredibly difficult. , . the constitution is incredibly difficult. , difficult. it is a very difficult _ difficult. it is a very difficult situation. i difficult. it is a very i difficult situation. the judges, the five of the judges on the supreme court, in their confirmation hearings, were asked about precedent and about roe v wade and none of them, none of them gave any indication that they would do this. they said we respect precedent and roe v wade is settled precedent. hang on a minute. this is the supreme and thejudges were not minute. this is the supreme and the judges were not prepared to be honest in advance i think discrediting the supreme court is a serious possibility. fascinating. ifeel is a serious possibility. fascinating. i feel incredibly strong — fascinating. i feel incredibly strong and i've been on marches in washington and the person i feel lucky— in washington and the person i feel lucky to live in a country where —

feel lucky to live in a country where this is not politicised but the _ where this is not politicised but the judgment which is the thing — but the judgment which is the thing that has been that it is actually— thing that has been that it is actually legally very sound. so this makes it much harder. i mean. — this makes it much harder. i mean, think of the sort of, if you — mean, think of the sort of, if you just _ mean, think of the sort of, if you just take a technical, dry technical— you just take a technical, dry technical view of this the right— technical view of this the right to _ technical view of this the right to abortion is not in the constitution. but this is how they're _ constitution. but this is how they're going to win this. that is what — they're going to win this. that is what i'm _ they're going to win this. that is what i'm trying to stay put at they're _ is what i'm trying to stay put at they're able to say this is at they're able to say this is a legal— at they're able to say this is a legal argument, this is not poiiticai~ _ a legal argument, this is not political. nothing is quite important to look at it because as i remember roe v wade was brought— as i remember roe v wade was brought in— as i remember roe v wade was brought in under sort of, there is not — brought in under sort of, there is not even _ brought in under sort of, there is not even a right to privacy and — is not even a right to privacy and the _ is not even a right to privacy and the constitution. it was stitched _ and the constitution. it was stitched together under various headings and actually what should _ headings and actually what should have happened as it should _ should have happened as it should have happened as it should have been legislation in the tragedy for america as you won't — the tragedy for america as you won't be — the tragedy for america as you won't be able to get legislation through the senate on this— legislation through the senate on this issue but of course that— on this issue but of course that is— on this issue but of course that is where i think the conservative right will take this — conservative right will take this to— conservative right will take this. to say that if you never have — this. to say that if you never have come _ this. to say that if you never have come to the court. there was a question _ have come to the court. there was a question to _ have come to the court. there was a question to legislate i was a question to legislate after the roe v wade judgment because it was a woman senator

and it didn't get through. it and it didn't get through. it is not practically possible but ithink— is not practically possible but i think the question provided now— i think the question provided now we _ i think the question provided now we know there are 22 states which _ now we know there are 22 states which are — now we know there are 22 states which are they going to ban or restrict— which are they going to ban or restrict abortion as a result of this— restrict abortion as a result of this ruling is the question for the — of this ruling is the question for the white house as what can they do— for the white house as what can they do to — for the white house as what can they do to help those 27 million _ they do to help those 27 million women?- they do to help those 27 million women? �* , million women? biden never used the word abortion _ million women? biden never used the word abortion since _ million women? biden never used the word abortion since he - the word abortion since he became _ the word abortion since he became president. - the word abortion since he became president. it- the word abortion since he became president. it is i the word abortion since he became president. it is a i the word abortion since he i became president. it is a vexed issue _ became president. it is a vexed issue for— became president. it is a vexed issue for him _ became president. it is a vexed issue for him as _ became president. it is a vexed issue for him as a _ became president. it is a vexed issue for him as a roman- issue for him as a roman catholic _ issue for him as a roman catholic. and _ issue for him as a roman catholic. and the - issue for him as a romanl catholic. and the majority issue for him as a roman. catholic. and the majority of those — catholic. and the majority of those in _ catholic. and the majority of those in the _ catholic. and the majority of those in the supreme - catholic. and the majority of those in the supreme court. j those in the supreme court. that— those in the supreme court. that is— those in the supreme court. that is not— those in the supreme court. that is not a _ those in the supreme court. that is not a problem - those in the supreme court. that is not a problem for. those in the supreme court. | that is not a problem for the people — that is not a problem for the people to _ that is not a problem for the people to have _ that is not a problem for the people to have their - that is not a problem for thel people to have their religious viewpoints _ people to have their religious viewpoints i— people to have their religious viewpoints. i would _ people to have their religious viewpoints. i would differ- people to have their religiousl viewpoints. i would differ with you. _ viewpoints. i would differ with you. camiita, _ viewpoints. i would differ with you, camilla, on— viewpoints. i would differ with you, camilla, on whether- viewpoints. i would differ with you, camilla, on whether it i viewpoints. i would differ with you, camilla, on whether it is| you, camilla, on whether it is duress— you, camilla, on whether it is duress potentially— you, camilla, on whether it is duress potentially correct, i duress potentially correct, this— duress potentially correct, this ruling _ duress potentially correct, this ruling. because - duress potentially correct, this ruling. because he i duress potentially correct, i this ruling. because he says that— this ruling. because he says that this _ this ruling. because he says that this is _ this ruling. because he says that this is not _ this ruling. because he says that this is not going - this ruling. because he says that this is not going to i that this is not going to affect— that this is not going to affect any— that this is not going to affect any other- that this is not going to i affect any other president. it is really— affect any other president. it is really only— affect any other president. it is really only about - affect any other president. it is really only about the - affect any other president. it is really only about the right| is really only about the right to abortion. _ is really only about the right to abortion. but _ is really only about the right to abortion. but if— is really only about the right to abortion. but if you're i to abortion. but if you're going _ to abortion. but if you're going to _ to abortion. but if you're going to knock _ to abortion. but if you're going to knock down i to abortion. but if you're - going to knock down something that itself— going to knock down something that itself sets _ going to knock down something that itself sets a _ going to knock down something that itself sets a precedent. i that itself sets a precedent. kiiiing — that itself sets a precedent. killing presidents _ that itself sets a precedent. killing presidents is - that itself sets a precedent. killing presidents is not i killing presidents is not necessarily— killing presidents is not necessarily a _ killing presidents is not necessarily a bad - killing presidents is not necessarily a bad idea. i killing presidents is not i necessarily a bad idea. but if it did —

necessarily a bad idea. but if it did not _ necessarily a bad idea. but if it did not do _ necessarily a bad idea. but if it did not do that _ necessarily a bad idea. but if it did not do that we - necessarily a bad idea. but if it did not do that we have i it did not do that we have still— it did not do that we have still had _ it did not do that we have still had segregation i it did not do that we have still had segregation in i it did not do that we have i still had segregation in the us — still had segregation in the us. however, _ still had segregation in the us. however, when- still had segregation in the i us. however, when presidents have _ us. however, when presidents have been_ us. however, when presidents have been overturned - us. however, when presidents have been overturned in - us. however, when presidents have been overturned in the i have been overturned in the past — have been overturned in the past mostly— have been overturned in the past mostly it _ have been overturned in the past mostly it has _ have been overturned in the past mostly it has been - have been overturned in the past mostly it has been to. past mostly it has been to expand _ past mostly it has been to expand rights, _ past mostly it has been to expand rights, restore - past mostly it has been to- expand rights, restore rights, not revoke _ expand rights, restore rights, not revoke them. _ expand rights, restore rights, not revoke them. which- expand rights, restore rights, not revoke them. which is- expand rights, restore rights, | not revoke them. which is the case _ not revoke them. which is the case in — not revoke them. which is the case in this_ not revoke them. which is the case in this case _ not revoke them. which is the case in this case and - not revoke them. which is the case in this case and also, - case in this case and also, when _ case in this case and also, when you _ case in this case and also, when you get— case in this case and also, when you get popular- case in this case and also, - when you get popular opinion, public— when you get popular opinion, public opinion— when you get popular opinion, public opinion still— when you get popular opinion, public opinion still supports i when you get popular opinion, public opinion still supports a i public opinion still supports a legal— public opinion still supports a legal right— public opinion still supports a legal right to _ public opinion still supports a legal right to abortion. - public opinion still supports a legal right to abortion. the . public opinion still supports a legal right to abortion. the us if itjudges _ legal right to abortion. the us if it judges does _ legal right to abortion. the us if it judges does this _ legal right to abortion. the us if it judges does this would - if it judges does this would join — if it judges does this would join countries like does make this is— join countries like does make this is no— join countries like does make this is no country in the world _ this is no country in the world. �* . . . this is no country in the world. �* , , world. because this is a vigorously _ world. because this is a vigorously prosecuted, | world. because this is a i vigorously prosecuted, the question is what will he come after next, what about gay marriage, that was not in the constitution. there are many other rights which were not in the constitution so that argument to be deployed this is argument to be deployed this is a disasterfor american argument to be deployed this is a disaster for american life. but there are lots of people who would dispute that, wouldn't they? it would take a different view. open it would quantify the numbers but accept that even if you think it is a

minority is a significant minority is a significant minority otherwise would not be in the kind of debate we are now. you make but when people start dying and if this passes people will die then... women have more resources by the ability to travel elsewhere to seek an abortion. but ability to travel elsewhere to seek an abortion.— ability to travel elsewhere to seek an abortion. but a lot of states will— seek an abortion. but a lot of states will enact. _ seek an abortion. but a lot of states will enact. in - seek an abortion. but a lot of states will enact. in poland i states will enact. in poland whether party _ states will enact. in poland whether party has - states will enact. in poland whether party has done - whether party has done something similar we've two women _ something similar we've two women die. so you are completely right and that will become... completely right and that will become- - -— become... what about the argument _ become... what about the argument may _ become... what about the argument may open - become... what about the argument may open this i argument may open this programme by saying, you know, who is thejudge programme by saying, you know, who is the judge and in a democracy it is usually elected people which the justice of the supreme court are not elected. that presumably could become a problem if you have the unelected organ of the state determining fundamental issues like this. is that not less of the peak of the justices like this. is that not less of the peak of thejustices rather than of the elected arms of governments in the united

states that have not grasped this and established the kind of framework in which those individual rights could be? it was the political side which appointed thejudges but was the political side which appointed the judges but the judges are there to protect people from the abuses of politics and this is their failure. i politics and this is their failure. ~ politics and this is their failure. ,, , ., politics and this is their failure. ,, ,, ., failure. i think, you know, we talk about— failure. i think, you know, we talk about democracy - failure. i think, you know, we talk about democracy and - talk about democracy and majorities _ talk about democracy and majorities and _ talk about democracy and | majorities and minorities. talk about democracy and - majorities and minorities. they should — majorities and minorities. they should neither— majorities and minorities. they should neither be _ majorities and minorities. they should neither be too - majorities and minorities. they should neither be too many - majorities and minorities. they should neither be too many ofl should neither be too many of the majority— should neither be too many of the majority nor— should neither be too many of the majority nor a _ should neither be too many of the majority nor a tyranny - should neither be too many of the majority nor a tyranny of i the majority nor a tyranny of the majority nor a tyranny of the minority— the majority nor a tyranny of the minority and _ the majority nor a tyranny of l the minority and unfortunately were _ the minority and unfortunately were tending _ the minority and unfortunately were tending towards - the minority and unfortunately were tending towards the - the minority and unfortunatelyl were tending towards the latter 'ust were tending towards the latter just in— were tending towards the latter just in terms— were tending towards the latter just in terms of— were tending towards the latter just in terms of the _ were tending towards the latter just in terms of the way- were tending towards the latter just in terms of the way the - just in terms of the way the electoral— just in terms of the way the electoral system _ just in terms of the way the electoral system and - just in terms of the way the electoral system and legali electoral system and legal system _ electoral system and legal system in _ electoral system and legal system in the _ electoral system and legal system in the us- electoral system and legal system in the us are - electoral system and legal system in the us are set l electoral system and legal. system in the us are set up electoral system and legal- system in the us are set up and so that— system in the us are set up and so that is— system in the us are set up and so that is put— system in the us are set up and so that is put up— system in the us are set up and so that is put up this _ so that is put up this incredible _ so that is put up this incredible dilemma i so that is put up this i incredible dilemma that so that is put up this - incredible dilemma that we so that is put up this _ incredible dilemma that we have now that — incredible dilemma that we have now that is — incredible dilemma that we have now that is really _ incredible dilemma that we have now that is really only— incredible dilemma that we have now that is really only a - incredible dilemma that we have now that is really only a game i now that is really only a game polarising _ now that is really only a game polarising the _ now that is really only a game polarising the country- now that is really only a game polarising the country still- polarising the country still further _ polarising the country still further. ~ ., polarising the country still further. ~ . ., . ., further. what of the danger of the court itself, _ further. what of the danger of the court itself, do _ further. what of the danger of the court itself, do think, - further. what of the danger of the court itself, do think, if. the court itself, do think, if it goes through this judge requires fewer it it goes through this 'udge requires fewerfi it goes through this 'udge requires fewe it goes through this 'udge reuuires fewe , , ., requires fewer it seems to me that one abiding _ requires fewer it seems to me that one abiding cosmic- requires fewer it seems to me that one abiding cosmic only | that one abiding cosmic only options _ that one abiding cosmic only options and the situation may be to— options and the situation may be to pack the court with his

own— be to pack the court with his own people. essentially if you think— own people. essentially if you think that trump is packed the court — think that trump is packed the court with— think that trump is packed the court with his people, this was never— court with his people, this was never supposed to happen because as isabel said this is what — because as isabel said this is what people were space to put a check _ what people were space to put a check on — what people were space to put a check on executive power but one bid — check on executive power but one bid to— check on executive power but one bid to expand the court, packed — one bid to expand the court, packed with people of a different hue, possibly bring in, because it is an permit for life _ in, because it is an permit for life that— in, because it is an permit for life. that then relegates it to a different status, doesn't it? and _ a different status, doesn't it? and you — a different status, doesn't it? and you lose that whole independence that it is supposed to guarantee. fdr was auoin to supposed to guarantee. fdr was going to do — supposed to guarantee. fdr was going to do that _ supposed to guarantee. fdr was going to do that in _ supposed to guarantee. fdr was going to do that in the _ supposed to guarantee. fdr was going to do that in the 30s, - going to do that in the 305, wasn't he, when he kept getting new deal things kept out by the court but he never actually did it. we make the number was nine but it was not always nine. this is actually changed over time so there is nothing sacrosanct about this particular number but as i was just saying, the more you expand it and will become unwieldy and then itjust becomes a political instrument and is no longer serve in the function that eventually the founders had expected a word. think it means the mid—term elections _ think it means the mid—term elections this— think it means the mid—term elections this year? -

think it means the mid—term elections this year? of- think it means the mid—termi elections this year? of course the democrats _ elections this year? of course the democrats who _ elections this year? of course the democrats who are - elections this year? of course the democrats who are by - elections this year? of course| the democrats who are by and large — the democrats who are by and large in — the democrats who are by and large in favour— the democrats who are by and large in favour of _ the democrats who are by and large in favour of preserving . large in favour of preserving abortion— large in favour of preserving abortion rights— large in favour of preserving abortion rights are - large in favour of preserving abortion rights are going - large in favour of preserving abortion rights are going to| abortion rights are going to make — abortion rights are going to make hay— abortion rights are going to make hay with _ abortion rights are going to make hay with this. - abortion rights are going to make hay with this. there i abortion rights are going to i make hay with this. there are already— make hay with this. there are already campaigning - make hay with this. there are already campaigning missivesi already campaigning missives going — already campaigning missives going out— already campaigning missives going out saying _ already campaigning missives going out saying if— already campaigning missives going out saying if you - already campaigning missives going out saying if you want l already campaigning missivesl going out saying if you want to find a — going out saying if you want to find a way _ going out saying if you want to find a way to _ going out saying if you want to find a way to preserve - going out saying if you want to find a way to preserve a - find a way to preserve a women's _ find a way to preserve a women's right- find a way to preserve a women's right to - find a way to preserve a women's right to have i find a way to preserve a - women's right to have power over— women's right to have power over her— women's right to have power over her own _ women's right to have power over her own body _ women's right to have power over her own body you - women's right to have power over her own body you needi women's right to have power. over her own body you need to turn _ over her own body you need to turn out — over her own body you need to turn out for _ over her own body you need to turn out for the _ over her own body you need to turn out for the election - turn out for the election because _ turn out for the election because all— turn out for the election because all indications i turn out for the election - because all indications were and — because all indications were and still— because all indications were and still are _ because all indications were and still are that _ because all indications were and still are that the - and still are that the republicans - and still are that the republicans will- and still are that the | republicans will take and still are that the - republicans will take over the house. — republicans will take over the house, possibly _ republicans will take over the house, possibly the _ republicans will take over the house, possibly the senate i republicans will take over the i house, possibly the senate and the election— house, possibly the senate and the election so _ house, possibly the senate and the election so this _ house, possibly the senate and the election so this could - house, possibly the senate and the election so this could be i house, possibly the senate and the election so this could be a i the election so this could be a motivating _ the election so this could be a motivating factor— the election so this could be a motivating factor and - the election so this could be a motivating factor and even i motivating factor and even biden— motivating factor and even biden himself— motivating factor and even biden himself has - motivating factor and even biden himself has alreadyi motivating factor and even i biden himself has already gone on television _ biden himself has already gone on television to _ biden himself has already gone on television to say— biden himself has already gone on television to say we - biden himself has already gone on television to say we are i biden himself has already gone on television to say we are now looking — on television to say we are now looking at— on television to say we are now looking at a _ on television to say we are now looking at a radical— on television to say we are now looking at a radical movementi looking at a radical movement trying — looking at a radical movement trying to— looking at a radical movement trying to reshape _ looking at a radical movement trying to reshape the - looking at a radical movement trying to reshape the us- looking at a radical movement trying to reshape the us so. looking at a radical movement trying to reshape the us so i. trying to reshape the us so i think— trying to reshape the us so i think definitely— trying to reshape the us so i think definitely it _ trying to reshape the us so i think definitely it is - trying to reshape the us so i think definitely it is going i trying to reshape the us so i think definitely it is going to| think definitely it is going to be part— think definitely it is going to be part of— think definitely it is going to be part of the _ think definitely it is going to be part of the political- be part of the political conversation. - be part of the political conversation. it- be part of the political conversation. it is- be part of the political. conversation. it is going be part of the political- conversation. it is going to be the number— conversation. it is going to be the number one— conversation. it is going to be the number one issue - conversation. it is going to be the number one issue for- conversation. it is going to be the number one issue for a i conversation. it is going to be| the number one issue for a lot people? — the number one issue for a lot people? not— the number one issue for a lot people? not when _ the number one issue for a lot people? not when inflation i the number one issue for a lot people? not when inflation is| people? not when inflation is at 10% — people? not when inflation is at 10% or— people? not when inflation is at 10% or higher. _ people? not when inflation is at 10% or higher.— at 10% or higher. you raise that question _ at 10% or higher. you raise that question of _ at 10% or higher. you raise that question of inflation . that question of inflation again and that takes us back to again and that takes us back to a few moments ago. i wonder how big a deal as this potentially forjoe biden because some people have blamed it on the

stimulus, the money injected to the economy to help them bounce back from covid. is the economy to help them bounce back from covid.— back from covid. is caught between _ back from covid. is caught between a _ back from covid. is caught between a rock— back from covid. is caught between a rock and - back from covid. is caught between a rock and hard l back from covid. is caught i between a rock and hard place because — between a rock and hard place because also _ between a rock and hard place because also the _ between a rock and hard place because also the same - between a rock and hard place because also the same time . between a rock and hard placei because also the same time we have, _ because also the same time we have, for— because also the same time we have, for example, _ because also the same time we have, for example, oil- because also the same time we have, for example, oil prices i have, for example, oil prices going — have, for example, oil prices going up— have, for example, oil prices going up with _ have, for example, oil prices going up with what _ have, for example, oil prices going up with what is - have, for example, oil prices i going up with what is happening in ukraine — going up with what is happening in ukraine and _ going up with what is happening in ukraine and yet— going up with what is happening in ukraine and yet the _ going up with what is happening in ukraine and yet the public- in ukraine and yet the public is in— in ukraine and yet the public is in favour— in ukraine and yet the public is in favour of _ in ukraine and yet the public is in favour of what - in ukraine and yet the public is in favour of what he - in ukraine and yet the public is in favour of what he is i is in favour of what he is doing _ is in favour of what he is doing for— is in favour of what he is doing for ukraine - is in favour of what he is doing for ukraine and i is in favour of what he isi doing for ukraine and yet really— doing for ukraine and yet really upset _ doing for ukraine and yet really upset about - doing for ukraine and yet really upset about what l doing for ukraine and yet| really upset about what is happening _ really upset about what is happening to _ really upset about what is happening to their- really upset about what is i happening to their pocketbook so it— happening to their pocketbook so it is— happening to their pocketbook so it is very— happening to their pocketbook so it is very hard _ happening to their pocketbook so it is very hard to— happening to their pocketbook so it is very hard to square i so it is very hard to square the — so it is very hard to square the circle _ so it is very hard to square the circle. please - so it is very hard to square the circle. please don't i so it is very hard to square i the circle. please don't have to really— the circle. please don't have to really confront _ the circle. please don't have to really confront that - the circle. please don't have to really confront that in i the circle. please don't have to really confront that in thei to really confront that in the midterms~ _ to really confront that in the midterms. he _ to really confront that in the midterms. he tries- to really confront that in the midterms. he tries but- to really confront that in the midterms. he tries but it i to really confront that in the midterms. he tries but it is| to really confront that in the l midterms. he tries but it is a tough — midterms. he tries but it is a tough defence _ midterms. he tries but it is a tough defence to _ midterms. he tries but it is a tough defence to make - midterms. he tries but it is a tough defence to make wheni tough defence to make when somebody— tough defence to make when somebody is— tough defence to make when somebody is opening - tough defence to make when somebody is opening your. tough defence to make when i somebody is opening your wallet and just— somebody is opening your wallet and just discovering _ somebody is opening your wallet and just discovering they- and just discovering they cannot— and just discovering they cannot pay— and just discovering they cannot pay for— and just discovering they cannot pay for staple i and just discovering they. cannot pay for staple goods and just discovering they- cannot pay for staple goods or even _ cannot pay for staple goods or even find _ cannot pay for staple goods or even find them _ cannot pay for staple goods or even find them on _ cannot pay for staple goods or even find them on the - cannot pay for staple goods or even find them on the shelves any more _ even find them on the shelves any more-— any more. the stimulus is wrong-headed, _ any more. the stimulus is wrong-headed, wasn't i any more. the stimulus is wrong-headed, wasn't it? any more. the stimulus is i wrong-headed, wasn't it? there wrong—headed, wasn't it? there was other— wrong—headed, wasn't it? there was other voices like larry summers, doesn't sting you took such— summers, doesn't sting you took such a _ summers, doesn't sting you took such a strong position early on — such a strong position early on a — such a strong position early on. a former treasury secretary and very— on. a former treasury secretary and very much a prominent member— and very much a prominent member of the democratic party willing _ member of the democratic party willing to — member of the democratic party willing to get out there and say this— willing to get out there and say this is going to risk inflation and that is what has

happened. i'm afraid i do think it is impossible to say that this— it is impossible to say that this was— it is impossible to say that this was not part of that. the other question _ this was not part of that. the other question is _ this was not part of that. fie: other question is this question of how far people are going to be willing to accept all the things they have talked about backin things they have talked about back in glasgow at the summit debate on climate change and the idea will have to take some hits, expensive hits in the short term in order to get to this a less carbon dependent future and a future in which the planet is able to survive. how difficult is that question now going to get us things like basic cost of energy become so much more expensive?- basic cost of energy become so much more expensive? there are coule of much more expensive? there are couple of problems _ much more expensive? there are couple of problems there. - much more expensive? there are couple of problems there. it - couple of problems there. it does depend where you look. if you look in europe it is actually reinforced the venice and european green plan and they have drawn the conclusion that if you want energy

security, build renewables. you don't have to import the sunshine. and you kill several birds with one stone. in the states there is an added complication that there is at the moment trade embargo on solar panels which means lots of... a lot of them are imported from southeast asia but the argument is whether they originate in china so we have got a complete problem there. and in this country, you have an extreme wedge within the tory party which includes the tory party which includes the delightful mr farage he may not be in the tory party, they are mobilising around opposing climate action. and although they have stopped denying the climate change is real there are going on the o, climate change is real there are going on the 0, but we can't afford it. literally too expensive, as though this whole argument rests on the fallacy that if you change nothing nothing changes. if you change

nothing changes. if you change nothing life gets very dangerous, very expensive people die. so it is not a sound argument but it is an argument that plays into the current political anxieties and we will see what this government makes of it. difficult for a prime minister who has been under the kind of pressure years who has taken the stance, this kind of green stands come and try to defend a position and then found they were put a lot of pressure within the party.— were put a lot of pressure within the party. yes, funnily enou~h, within the party. yes, funnily enough, boris _ within the party. yes, funnily enough, boris johnson - within the party. yes, funnily enough, boris johnson is, i within the party. yes, funnilyl enough, boris johnson is, you enough, borisjohnson is, you know, _ enough, borisjohnson is, you know, pretty solid on green issues _ know, pretty solid on green issues. zac goldsmith, ben goldsmith, very, very influential members of the conservative party, strongly colleges. i'm not usually terribly— colleges. i'm not usually terribly positive about these things — terribly positive about these things but it was a boris johnson _ things but it was a boris johnson proudly won't see us sliding — johnson proudly won't see us sliding back. ithink johnson proudly won't see us sliding back. i think they have made — sliding back. i think they have made unbelievable mistakes as for example to close down the biggest — for example to close down the biggest gas storage facility we had _ biggest gas storage facility we had i— biggest gas storage facility we had. i mean, the lack of even medium—term planning is really

extraordinary. we do have to be honest. — extraordinary. we do have to be honest, though, someone who is, i honest, though, someone who is, i have _ honest, though, someone who is, i have been— honest, though, someone who is, i have been campaigning on these — i have been campaigning on these for a 25 years. we are to be honest— these for a 25 years. we are to be honest we've sold the public, _ be honest we've sold the public, we have been too glib about— public, we have been too glib about telling the public you can have net zero really easily _ can have net zero really easily l _ can have net zero really easil . . can have net zero really easil . , _, , easily. i wish i could give us more time. _ easily. i wish i could give us more time, i _ easily. i wish i could give us more time, i wish _ easily. i wish i could give us more time, i wish i - easily. i wish i could give us more time, i wish i could i easily. i wish i could give us i more time, i wish i could give us more renewable energy. there we are. thank very much and thank you for being with us. goodbye. hello there. rain has continued to push southwards through the night, dampening for the ground, watering for the gardens. behind it, though, some mist and some fog has been forming, and quite a chilly start this

morning across the glens of scotland. quite a murky grey one that rain around initially, drizzly rain, and then the cloud breaks up to give a few showers through the day. so, it's not entirely dry. best of the sunshine, i think, will be in western areas. there'll be rather more cloud also in eastern areas and making it feel a little bit cooler here. and temperatures generally won't be as high as they have in the south the last couple of days because there's a little bit more cloud and also one or two showers around. also some mist and fog first thing sunday morning, then england and wales look to be drier, brighter, bit more sunshine around. a little less cool for the east coast, but instead we pick up more cloud and perhaps a little bit of patchy rain for northern ireland and scotland, western scotland that is, later in the day. the outlook is a little bit more unsettled into next week, and the best of the dry weather, the warm weather further south. weather, the warm

welcome to bbc news. i'm tim willcox — our top stories... in ukraine — a further 50 civilians are evacuated from the mariupol steelworks — that's been under attack by russian forces. a huge explosion rips through an upmarket hotel in the colonial district of havana. at least 22 people are dead. a state of emergency is declared in sri lanka, as thousands of protestors demand the resignation of both the president and prime minister. and — why some controversial members of the british royalfamily won't be getting a place on the balcony at the queen's jubilee.