now on bbc news, political thinking with nick robinson. hello, welcome to political thinking. a relaxed conversation, not a news interrogation with someone who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. now not since the creation of what used to be called the ministry of fun, rather more boringly these days, it's called the department of digital, culture, media and sport. not since then have we had a secretary of state who is actually claimed to be able to contribute to the culture. not any more, nadine dorries has written 15 novels. she sold more than 2.5 million copies of them. you might think that means that the people in the world of the arts and the media have

welcomed her appointment. not a bit of it. many have reacted as if she is a threat to all they stand for. i doubt that's caused her much of a worry, though, because nadine dorries seems to be up for the fight. sometimes with those outside her party, sometimes with those inside it. she says she's someone who owes absolute undying loyalty to her boss, borisjohnson. and she often, as we may discover, wades in to defend him. nadine dorries, welcome to political thinking. hi, nick. was that a fair introduction? it's fair. ijust wonder, when you hear the things people say about you, and they say quite a lot, don't they? do you recognise yourself or do you find, like many people in public life, who was that they are talking about? no, it's really weird, i don't recognise myself at all.

my family don't and my friends don't recognise it. it's bizarre, i am a gemini so i sometimes think i have this split personality — the public facing one that people see and the one that all my mates and my family see. so it is, it is a bit of an odd one, yeah. what's the difference between what people see in private and what we see in public? i don't really know. i am a politician now, 17 years i'm a politician and so i don't think from the day i became a politician that i've actually acted like one. because i came into politics really at the end of my career. i'd been a nurse for ten years in the nhs, i set up my own business, sold my business and found myself in the fortunate position of being able to do what i wanted to do and politics was kind of like my hobby. so i became a politician and was very fortunate to have been elected as an mp. and i think because, if you look back 17 years ago when i arrived in westminster, it started from the day i arrived.

it, being what? people thinking i'm having a go again. and that was before social media. and i think it was because ijust didn't fit into that stereotype, that this is what politicians should be like. and back in 2005, that just wasn't acceptable. it's even less acceptable now, i think. is it you didn't fit the model of a politician or that you didn't fit the model of a tory? there were some people in your party who thought who, forgive me, who is this scouse, working—class girl? i got a lot of... and on the other hand there are people on the left thinking, who does she think she is, she should be on our side? so i've got a clip of tony blair the very first time i asked a question in the house of commons. and as i stood up to ask the question, he lent to jack straw and he went, who's that? because it was... ..and i've got that clip still, because it was so unusual for someone of my accent and a female standing up on the tory benches to ask a question. and so it was all of those things. there was a hell of a lot of snobbery in there as well.

you know, working class, like proper working class from liverpool, a tory, you know, it was kind of like just unheard of. but i got it from the other side. it came from the opposition, like, how dare you be a tory, you and your background, you're supposed to be on this side of the house. so i was in a lose—lose situation from the day i arrived. proper working class, it's been a long road, doesn't it, from breck road in liverpool to where you are today? your dad was a bus driver originally, your mum was a typist. was it a home in which you were talking politics? were you having arguments, were you having rows there? so everyone in liverpool talks about three things the football, religion... we don't mention that now. ..religion or politics and you know, i'm talking about back in the days of, this is like pre derek hatton it was, and all that went on liverpool. i mean, liverpool was a troubled city, you know, when i was growing up. we had the orange lodge marches.

we had, you know, there wasjust so much that was politically volatile happening in liverpool that everyone... i rememberfalling asleep on our floor with arguments raging over my head about politics. so it's imbued on you in liverpool from the day you're born. and it's a very unusual city as well because liverpool doesn't face westminster. liverpool faces out across the atlantic towards america, bypassing ireland. so it's a really kind of heady mix of politics. now, what sort of life was it? this was clearly not a rich life, you said it was an ordinary working class life. tough? it was, we were very poor. so my poor dad was ill and, you know, the benefit system wasn't what it is today. he was very poorly, didn't work. and my poor mum, i remember having to try and get work and it was, it was, i've got some very in fact i was actually thinking one of the memories came

back to me last night, some very vivid memories, particular moments during my childhood which were, i realise actually feed into the other bit of me, which is the author bit when i'm writing my books. like you know, hiding from the rent man under the sink, and i actually remembered another memory last night which... hiding under the sink? so where we lived in our block of flats, there was like a window, the kitchen window was on the landing and there was no cupboard under the sink. we had a wooden box for the dog to sleep in. and i remember the rent man knocking on our door and my mum was at the sink and she grabbed me by the hand and we were just on the floor so he couldn't see us through the window, if he looked through the window. and also, you know, going to the rent office with my mum and holding my brother's hand and watching, stood head high with this wooden counter while she was a pleading with the rent man not to evict us and telling him she was going to get work and that we would be able to pay the rent arrears. and i remember the tension. i remember feeling the tightness

in my chest as a six—year—old that we were in a really serious situation, something awful was happening. now, you mentioned your writing, you mentioned your books, there'll be plenty of people listening to this, watching it who don't know your books, don't know that james daunt, the man who runs waterstones books, told us that you're one of the queens of saga writing. you sell a lot of books, ebooks, not that many in bookshops, as it turns out. but i think we sell quite a few. quite a few, yeah, probably a lot more than i ever sold, by the way. it feels to me like your writing, particularly that first one, the four streets, and you've written a follow up just now that's been published recently, contains a kind of nostalgia for that world that you grew up in in liverpool. is that right? well, so there was another side to the story. and by the way, just on the book shops bit, so the major supermarkets are probably my biggest sellers and thank you to james daunt. so yeah, i wouldn't say it's a nostalgia, but we were all poor, we were dirt poor.

and in those and those that kind of environment, communities do tend to pull together. so, you know, in our street particularly, there was someone who had a pan that fell off the back of a ship. and on a wednesday night, which was a poor night, everybody would contribute something into that pan and it would just be a scouse of sorts. and as kids, we would all go down to that house to to have our tea. and that's where we'd eat, because it was cooked in one kitchen and one big pan. so, i mean, people did really, really struggle. you did have quite a lot of tragedy in your life. i mean, yourfather died, and in tragic circumstances when you were working as a nurse? yeah, yeah. it was actually pretty awful, to be honest. so my parents divorced... yeah, my parents divorced, my father and i, we were very close and he was a2. and i went to, i started my nurse training and i went to work. and i used to do, i was doing my nights, seven nights

on and seven nights off. and so i went to work and my father put the milk bottles out and went to bed. and then i got back seven days later, i couldn't get in through the front door. the safety chain was on and as i was opening the front door it was banging against the chain and the police came out to help me in and i could see his jacket was on the back of the chair where it always was and his shoes. and the police went to the kitchen and i ran into the bedroom and ifound him dead. and he'd died just after i left work seven days earlier. so... he'd been there all that time? all that time on his own, yeah. you still feel that loss, don't you? i do, actually. i can't really talk about it. it's it's tough, but it obviously influences the way you write what you experienced as a child. yeah. the hardship you experienced? so i think when you have

unexpected loss in your life because my brother then died, my only brother, my only sibling died in a road accident not long after. and so there were four of us growing up and my cousin also took his own life. so i had three unexpected losses in rapid succession, which i think they do impact on you. and i think they make you defensive, and i don't know why. and and i think they make you... yeah, always wary, always looking over your shoulder, always wondering, you know, even after the passage of time, you're always wondering what is going to come along and punch you in the face next. and even though you know nothing is because actually, you know, you touch wood, you had your really awful times back then, you're still always waiting for life to come around and just smack you in the face. defensive is an interesting word. yeah, and i've often thought that there are a number of things that happened you know, in my younger years,

i think i had a pretty rough time and there are a number of things that happened, and i think they've made me slightly. ..and i know thatand i'm apologizing for it all the time. i know it's made me slightly defensive, and i do try very hard. there are plenty of people listening who think you're aggressive rather than defensive. we'll come on to that. i am aggressive, so if you're talking about politically, you know, don't forget, i spent five years in opposition and i spent my politically active years in opposition while labour were in power. now, we've heard this story. i think it will surprise a lot of people listening and watching and you know, there will be people watching, listening, not all let me stress, but there'll be someone going, how on earth is she a tory? what's the answer? well, so i think one of the big opportunities for us when i was growing up and for all you know, i'm still friends with the people i grew up on, on the council estate that i grew up as a kid, that i will still say they're my closest, you know, heart to heart friends. and i think the one thing that changed for all of us was something

that margaret thatcher did. and she put a hand down into our council estates and she lifted us all up onto a ladder out of poverty. she allowed people like my mum, who and my dad, who had been paying council tax, sorry not council tax, rents to the council for many years to just literally convert that from that day onwards into and to continue paying what was to the council their rent and to be able to do that. and that became, in effect, a mortgage payment. they were given the right to buy their council houses. i know the impact and the effect of that was was amazing. now, let's go back to you and what motivates you and what makes you the person you are. because i thought you rather powerfully explained why, in your words, you can sometimes be defensive. and i said, you're are aggressive sometimes. and i think the place that people saw that is when you had a row with your own leader, with david cameron a few years ago. i didn't have a row with him.

well, hold on, you described him as... i'll have one with you if you carry on! well, i was waiting for that. you described him and george osborne as two arrogant public schoolboys who don't know the price of milk. well, they didn't! is that not having a row? why were you so cross with him? it became a row, it became a row. also, you know, because they were a world apart from me and... you once said that david cameron represented everything you've been taught to be suspicious of, what did you mean? i think that was true. you know, so they were the ultimate posh boys. and actually, you know what? i wish i hadn't used the word posh, i wish i'd use the word privileged, because ijust kind of became really frustrated with the fact that they weren't listening. they weren't listening to what even their own backbenchers wanted to say. and there was just stuff, you know, i didn't agree with that they were doing at the time. and ijust, i think my frustration just boiled over and i actually at the time, you know, you might say what i said

was aggressive, but, you know, some of your colleagues, you might have even been one of them said to me, you've actually said something that's put a finger on the pulse of the nation. i was just interested to know why you wanted to boil over. and i think other people are interested. they go, she's that woman who had a go at the posh boys, and yet she's boris johnson's biggest fan. isn't borisjohnson a posh boy who doesn't know the price of milk? so boris is completely different. i think boris had his own tough times actually growing up. and when i arrived in westminster... tough times at home, you mean? yeah, when he arrived in westminster he was, he couldn't be more welcoming to all of us, to the new intake in 2005. couldn't have been more open, couldn't have been more friendly or helpful. i couldn't say that about david cameron or george osborne. i felt like i was expected to feel as though i was talking to greatness. i felt as though i should feel lucky to be in their company. this isn't about posh male privilege is it? i think what you're telling me,

i think your words, though, is they patronised you and he didn't? yeah, yeah, actually, you know what, i've never thought of it like that, but yeah, you're right. it was patronising. and he treated me as though as an equal, he treated all of my intake in 2005 as though we were... he didn't patronise us one little bit. and i think right from then i was kind of like, yeah, you're a decent bloke. and is that why you talk about having undying loyalty? because i think somebody asked you if there's anything he could do that would break that loyalty. kick a dog and i'd probably, yeah, that would be it. there aren't many things though? i'm a dog lover. yeah, yeah, but there aren't many. there are things of course there are things he could do that would, you know? but, but because i know him, i couldn't see him ever, ever doing anything that would make me, would sever my loyalty because fundamentally, you know, i know the prime minister well and and carrie and the kids.

and he's a kind, sometimes, ithink, too kind, a kind person. i think kind to a fault, actually, sometimes. is that why in an image that many of us can't get out of our minds, that when boris johnson withdrew from a leadership election to replace david cameron in 2016 you were in the front room? i was. yeah, but i cry all the time. i know, i cry all the time because i actually thought i knew he would be a great leader. and i know there are people listening to this who probably about to throw stuff at the radio, you know? but, you know, he is the person who took us through brexit. he's taken us through covid, he gave us the first vaccine. he's taken us out the pandemic. he's in the... thank you for the party political broadcast for boris johnson. well, it's not, it's not, it actually underpins the reasons why i am such a loyal supporter of the prime minister. we have the right leaderfor some very troubled times. and i would not like to think if we had other people

in place through brexit, through covid, in a war in ukraine where we would be today. let's talk about the job we asked you to do. he asked you to be culture secretary, which you are now. now you've got amazingly broad agenda reform of the bbc, privatisation of channel 4, data protection, cyber security. haven't possibly got time to ask you about all of those, but the one i'm always told is your passion, the one everybody says is the one that really motivates you is the 0nline harms bill. just for people for whom that just sounds like a piece of impenetrable jargon, what is it that happens now that you are claiming that you were secretary of state with a new law can stop happening in the future? i was in health before i got to this job, and one of the my roles as a health minister was to receive the prevention of future death reports from coroners, which broke my heart. i would read reports from coroners about young people who had

taken their own life because harmful algorithms on a social media platform had taken them down some very dark pathways. and so i spoke to young people, i heard constantly stories about how bullying no longer is left at the school gate, how bullying follows young people and young children home into their homes, into their bedrooms, on their mobile phones. and is there. and 2a hours a day pervasive and terrible influence on young people's lives. that abuse that you want to stop. a personal stake you've had attacks. well, i get the stats, but that doesn't even come into it. i'm not talking nadine dorries i'm not talking about people saying, you know, i don't like or things

that are rooted than that. i'm talking about death threats that you've faced. you are facing many women in politics, i'm sorry to remind you, of grotesque things, but in a sense it gives us a sense of what you're trying to stop. someone said they wanted to see you locked in a burning car and watch as the flesh melted from my face. yeah. that's why you feel passionate. not the only reason, but no, actually, to be honest, i'm absolutely honest with you. none of that has even come into my consciousness. so there were two things, really. it's always been about kids for me, you know, even as a nurse, even in my business, it's not my business, which was childcare has always been about kids, my role in mental health here, about the impact on children. and as soon as i got into this bill and realised that we could do stuff. i think everybody listening and watching is cheering you on. but they'll probably also ask you a question saying, well, i'm sure the previous secretary of state thought it was a very good idea as well, and they probably thought it was a good idea in all parties as well. why hasn't it happened? and the reason many people say it hasn't happened is that they don't want government ministers or regulators appointed by government ministers to censor what can and can't be said.

and some people in your own party, you all know this, say it should be called the online safety bill. it should be called the online censorship bill, because that's what you're bringing about. and that's a load of nonsense. so the reason why it didn't happen, nick, was because it needed a fighter to make it happen, but it also needed someone to be able to push through what was essential reform. because what happens online now cannot continue to happen to our children and young people. now, when you talk about people in my party, there are a handful of libertarians in my party who i don't think have even read the bill, who have taken the bill and made incorrect some assumptions about it. they say that it impedes free speech, it actually enhances free speech. they make comments like i'm giving online platforms the power to take down content online arbitrarily. they do that now. what they say is that billionaires

who live abroad can already censor, and you're going to make them more likely to censor things because they're nervous of facing huge british government fines. they say that david davis got censored when he dared to question something about vaccines. well, he makes my point. you're making my point for me. well, no, david got censored. not at all. more of that because when they're faced with a fine by nadine dorries, appointed censor they say the regulator they'll say, well, why don't we, we don't care about all that political stuff. let's get rid of the far left. we'll get rid of some libertarians on the right. we'll get rid of a bit of free speech here because then we avoid the fines. we make even more money. so what would you say was the the right approach we should take then just do nothing and let children take their lives every day? you know, the suicide rate during the pandemic actually didn't go up at all. it went down slightly. but there was one group where it rose and it rose significantly, and that was in the age band was something like 14 to 2a that was in young people. and the influence of what happens

online plays into that one thing one thing that people are asking, i think, is why you keep going? you're a very successful author. you don't need the money. you don't need the profile. we saw that in the celebrityjungle. ijust quoted to you, james daunt, a great book—seller, saying, you're the queen or one of the queens of saga writing. why bother? you know, ispent i7, 16 years of 15 years as a backbench mp never thinking that i wanted to be a secretary of state. interestingly, now i've got here, i've realised what a privilege and what a valuable position i have. and the reason why i'm doing it right now is if i can leave myjob and i get something like the online safety bill through and i can prevent those harmful algorithms directing children towards those awful suicide chat rooms and other other things that i don't want to mention. if i can stop children

being bullied 2a hours a day, if i can do something myself to stop all the racism and the hatred and the bullying that happens online, i'll keep going until i can do that. in the promotion, do i get commission, by the way? in the promotion... you could just mention coming home to the full story. 0h, out there in the promotion for i don't by the way, for example in the promotion for the next novel. which you're producing or you've already written. oh, that's already written. sorry. 0n the eve of her wedding, love at first sight threatens to sweep beatrice away. caught in a war between two powerfulfamilies. here's the crucial question will beatrice follow her heart or follow her head ? it sounds cheesy when you read it. i never wrote that, by the way. i would ask you the question i was going to ask, you do get a lot of people sneering at your books, don't you? just by the fact a lot of...

i think it's nearly three million now. no, no, that was my question. i mean, the telegraph, when you wrote the first one and said it's the worst novel i've read in ten years. but the person who wrote that review was a member, a catholic member of opus dei. and my first book had a child abusing catholic priest in it. so follow the money. was he patronizing you, too? yeah. you've got a lot of that. a great favour, sold bomb after that. the question i was going to ask you is. your character has to choose to follow her heart or follow her head. which do you generally follow? oh, gosh, nick, don't. so to my detriment to my huge fault. i follow my heart probably too often. and you know, that makes me not a clever politician because most politicians follow their head. and if i haven't learned to change and to alter that balance after 17 years, i don't think i'm ever going to.

so i may as well give up trying. do you think for all those people and there are quite a lot on there who pick on a phrase here in an interview and a tweet there, and they think you're incredibly aggressive on twitter. what you're saying is... i'm not, i'm the opposite. i'm following my heart. i am the opposite to aggressive. so let's not get into why, right? because this isn't the time or the place. you called keir starmer a liar repeatedly. i mean, nobody would call it kind or gentle, would they? political campaigning is very different to real life. so, you know, as i've said, i spent the first i spent many years in opposition. i'm a political street fighter. i fought to get the conservatives back into power. you'll see some of that on occasion, you know? and, you know, my party wants me to go out and do that on occasion. so, you know, that tweet to keir starmer had eight million views. so, of course, the party

want me to keep doing it. and i do. and i put out whatever it is that i'm asked to put out. nadine dorries, thank you very much for coming on political thinking. love her or hate, her, i think you're closer to understanding what makes nadine doris think, and that is what this series is about. a conversation trying to understand what forms the values, what forms the beliefs of the people who shape our political thinking. thanks very much for watching. hello, we have a real mix of weather types today, some heavy showers and thunderstorms but equally spells of warm sunshine. that's how it's looking for the rest of the day, some of us will catch the heavy downpours but for other areas the warm spring sunshine will break through. high pressure not far away,

sitting out towards the north—east. this feature brought heavy showers this morning. fizzling out into the afternoon but still a lot of cloud and a few showers across parts of central england, wales into northern england, south—west scotland and northern ireland. either side of the showers, a return to sunshine. dry for the north of scotland, warm sunshine for southern england and wales, temperatures reaching 22 or 23 degrees. colder under the cloud for newcastle, with the breeze from the north sea. into this evening, the showery rain clears away but more heavy rain from the south could bring lightning and thunder across central parts of england, wales into northern ireland through the early hours. warm and humid in the south. you might catch a glimpse of the full lunar eclipse tonight in the north of scotland, far south—west england

with clearest skies. into monday, this rash of showers continues, slow progress across northern ireland. heading into central scotland in the afternoon, quite persistent and there could be thunder and lightning as well. return to sunny and dry conditions in the south, still one or two showers in the afternoon. there could be an isolated thunderstorm and temperatures from 11 in aberdeen, towards 22 in the london region. low pressure from the west on tuesday. it will feel breezy for western fringes of britain and northern ireland, outbreaks of rain. central and eastern areas remain dry through the day and the southerly wind could be the warmest day of the year, potentially 25 or 26 degrees down towards the south—east. 16 for the remainder in belfast. for the middle of the week, some rain on wednesday, into thursday high pressure will build in. showers still in the forecast on wednesday, drier for thursday with temperatures through this week in the warmer spots in the mid—20s.

goodbye.

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