this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues — straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the united states is a secular republic. there is no state religion, but many americans have nonetheless come to see their country as a beacon of muscular christian values. my guest today is franklin graham, a christian evangelist with a nationwide following and influence to match. his father, billy, was perhaps the most famous evangelist of them all, but franklin has

taken the family ministry in a more political direction — why? and from abortion to gay marriage, is he deepening america's divisions? franklin graham, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. yourfamily name is synonymous with preaching, with evangelism. you've been at it for, what, four decades and more. as you look at your own country, america, today. how do you feel about its moral and spiritual health? i think morally, no question,

our nation is in great decline. the world is, morally. and it's one of these things that we see. but we don't we don't get discouraged. we keep preaching the truth. and the truth is that god loves us, that he cares for us, that he's sent his son from heaven to this earth to take our sins. he didn't come to condemn us, he came to save us. and this is a message that we preach to every generation. why are you so convinced that you are living through an era of moral decline? just watch the news, and you see the moral decline all around us. of course, church attendance is down, but that's one thing. but we see things, issues, like abortion in our country, which is for 49 years, 63 million children have been aborted. and this is a moral issue.

it's not a political issue, it's a moral issue. and so i speak out on it, because it's... i believe this is what god would have us to do. because god made us and created, stephen. he loves every one of us, and a child and a mother's womb needs to be protected. well, i do want to get into your views on the abortion issue and how that fits with the american public�*s view on abortion in just a moment. but just to stick with the overview of you as a preacher, you say it is your duty to preach the word of god. is it also your duty to fight? because you've used that word fight not so long ago, you said this. you said, "we think that we can fight by smiling and being real nice and loving, but we have to understand who the enemy is and what he wants to devour in our homes. he wants to devour this nation." you make it sound like you're in some sort of life—and—death struggle. well, there is a war between good and evil, stephen, no question about it. and so you're a warrior. you're notjust a preacher,

you're a warrior. no, but i want to stand for god's truth and for what he says in his word. i believe the bible, stephen, to be the god's word from cover to cover. i don't understand it all, but i certainly believe it all. it's all truth? cover to cover, the literal truth — every word of it true. absolutely, no question. that's what i believe in. in this fight that you posit between good and evil with an enemy — and i guess you mean satan, the devil, who wants to devour people in their homes — would it be fair to say that yours is a fairly dark view of humanity and the struggle? well, when i say... when you say "devour people in their homes", he wants to destroy the home, he wants to destroy marriage. he wants to destroy the children, he wants to destroy the family. and he's been very successful at that. and we see this throughout western society. i mean, again, i don't want to put words in your mouth, but yours is a message of fear, right? no, no, it's a message of truth, stephen. i want people to know

the truth, that god loves us. he created us. but we have a problem in this world now. problem is called sin, and sin separates us from god. and we see evidence of sin all around us. and i want people to know that they can be forgiven of their sin. and that's why christ came, he took our sins on the cross. you just said to me that the numbers coming to your services, the numbers going to church generally across america are in decline. why is it, do you think, that you are losing support, losing affiliation? i don't think i'm losing support. the church in decline would be mainstream churches that have turned their back on the word of god and have compromised. well, to be to be absolutely fair, looking at the data and it's been drilled into by various different groups, according to the data, white evangelical christians as a share of the american population are in steep decline. well, i don't agree that's in steep decline. i think because of the pandemic for the last couple of years,

those numbers have been skewed because churches were closed. people quit going to church. but here's the thing — during the pandemic, the financial giving to the churches went up as people were watching services online. i'm not talking about money, i'm talking about numbers. i'm talking also about demographics. again, according to the same data analysis, the ageing of the white evangelical population is extremely pronounced, while 22% of americans, 65 and over describe themselves as evangelicals — this is the white population they've studied — the same number amongst 18—29—year—olds is just 7%. you're not winning over young people. no, it's a problem. and is it because your message, as we just discussed at the beginning of this conversation, is, frankly, one that's based on the notion of decline, of being scared and fearful of what satan might be doing to the country? is this a message young people really want to hear? well, again,

stephen, it's truth. i'm trying to share with people what god sees and what god says, and what he demands. and the bible says we've all sinned and we've come short of god's standards. and the penalty of sin is death, and death is separation from god for eternity. butjesus christ, god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, jesus christ, that whosoever believed in him shouldn't perish but have everlasting life. your father took one decision which you have not taken. he took a decision — as he became more and more successful, i guess you could call him a preacher superstar — he took a decision to tread very, very warily when it came to politics. he decided that that was not conducive to winning hearts and minds. you've taken a very different decision. well, i would disagree. he was friends with, i think it was 13 presidents. well, he was particularly friends with richard nixon. and he came to regret that. he talked publicly about how that had actually harmed him and his ministry. but he was he was friends

with all of them, all the way up to trump. well, i'm quoting his own words here. he said, "if i get on to these other political subjects, it divides the audience on issues that i'm not promoting." this is in 2005, he said, "i just focus on promoting the gospel." and as he got older, that was that was his focus, no question. yeah, well, you're not going in that direction. i'm looking at you and your career trajectory, and the decision that you took. hang on, let mejust finish. the decision you took to ally yourself very closely to donald trump back in 2016. why did you do that? first of all, i didn't campaignfor him. he asked me to campaign for it, and i wouldn't do it. he asked me for an endorsement — i didn't do it. but when he became president, he was now our president. and i supported him wherever i could. after the election in 2016, you said, "i believe this about the election — god showed up." indicating that trump was god's candidate. no, but president trump in 2016 was losing the election on election night.

he and the vice president, when vice president mike pence called, just to say, "franklin, thank you for your prayers, we appreciate it." and you could tell that they knew they had lost the election. hillary had already had a big party planned. they already had newsweek magazine... so god showed up and put trump over the top. but something happened that night. and i believe i went to all 50 state capitals in 2016, and we had prayer rallies on the on the steps of the state capitals. nobody�*s ever done that before. and i saw the turnout of people that came to pray. they didn't come to pray for trump, they came to pray for their country. and now that you've seen the four years of the trump presidency, you saw what happened onjanuary 6th with the assault on the capital after trump had told his supporters to "fight like hell". do you still feel that in 2016, with trump's victory, god really showed up? idid, yes.

haven't changed your mind at all? no. see, it's interesting, going back to billy, your dad, and his decision to tread carefully in politics. it's interesting that even current members of your own family think that you got far too close to trump. jerusha armfield, i believe i'm right in saying she's your niece, isn't she? she's a niece. yeah, she says this — after you said what you said about god showing up for trump, she said to suggest the president—elect, ie trump, is an ambassador to further the kingdom of god in the world, diminishes not only myjesus, but all he stood for and came to earth to fight against." that's your own niece. well, she has her opinions. how upset were you that even within the family there is clearly a disquiet about your alliance with donald trump? people have their own opinions, and i don't i don't fault her. i love her, she's my niece, she's my family. and i was not mad at her or angry, just that she has her opinions. let's get to the issues,

cos you already alluded to abortion being absolutely front and centre of what you see to be a symbol of the moral decline in america. are you determined, as america stands on the brink of a new fight, it seems, about abortion — because we've seen the leaks from what appears to have been a supreme court draft ruling overturning the �*73 roe versus wade decision which legalised abortion across the country — are you preparing to be a key player in that fight? no — but there's one thing i appreciate about president trump. the judges that he nominated to the bench were conservative judges, pro—lifejudges. and he said, as he was running in 2016, that he was going to be a pro—life president. and that's exactly what we have. and now the supreme court of the united states looks as though they're going to overturn... they're not going to overturn roe versus wade as it was 49 years ago. what it does, it goes back to the states and now the states

can make those decisions. yeah, we know that 20 and more states are absolutely determined... and there'll be more. so the majority of states, in your view, in the union, will criminalise abortion? to a certain point, yes. yeah, see, you're very straightforward. i'mjust, again, looking at what you've said in the past. "i believe abortion is murder," you say. no question. "in scripture, in the bible, i believe the bible to be god's word." it's quite straightforward. ijust have to push you a little bit on this because it's not altogether simple. are you saying that abortion is murder, even if the woman conceived as the result of rape? that's a very difficult question, steve. i'm not god, i can't answer. god isn't going to play a role in this. it's human beings who are going to settle this. no, god will. god's going to settle it, one day we'll have to stand before him and give an account. but i do believe that

abortion is murder, that... "in all cases" — that's such a bold blanket statement. give me... again, imagine a woman who is told that she will die if she gives birth. no, i think there's exceptions. i think there are exceptions, like a mother's health. and i think those are decisions that should be made by the medical community and should have an opportunity to make those decisions. i'm not saying you don't take those decisions away, but ijust believe that using abortion for birth control is murder, no question. you are losing the argument, aren't you? i mean, consistently polls show two thirds of americans, if not more, support a woman's right to an abortion, a woman's right to have control over her own body. well, the supreme court is going to rule on this shortly, and it will change the law of the land. and so, you know, again, i'm not going to be going out advocating and working toward abolishing abortion. that's not what i'm here to do.

well, it sort of is. i mean, your message is very clear — "i believe abortion is murder." and you know that those sorts of quotes that you give will be used by conservative anti—abortion politicians up and down the country. i answer questions from reporters like yourself. and i want to answer those questions honestly. and so, see, i believe abortion is a moral issue. it's not a political issue, it's a moral issue. well, to many people, and i'm just going to quote to you the un special rapporteur on the right to health, dr tlaleng—mofokeng, the quote is this. "morality" — which you've just acknowledged — "and theological reasoning should not be allowed to undermine fundamental human rights and the right of a woman to control her body, to have an abortion in controlled circumstances is a fundamental human right." how about the fundamental human right of the child, stephen, that she's carrying? how about his right

or her right, the child? see, you're a man and you're essentially saying to me that you don't acknowledge that a woman has a right to control — a pregnant woman has a right to control of her body, even in the first trimester of a of a pregnancy. do you feel entirely comfortable making that declaration? not to terminate a life. i believe all life is precious to god. how far would you go? because state legislatures, some of them, are now looking to make abortion in the future a legal homicide. you would support that? would i support the state? yeah, states defining abortion in the future, were it to happen, as a criminal homicide. those will be something that the courts in the states will have to decide. i'm not a politician. and that's something they will have to decide. and what about criminalising certain forms of contraception and even ivf treatments? where do you stand on that?

because according to you, this is all a moral issue and you are, in the end, a moral voice. i don't think contraception is a moral issue like terminating a life. can we talk about lgbt issues again? you've been very strong on twitter. you have a big following on twitter and on facebook, and you've made it very plain that you see same—sex marriage. . . well, once you said — you later deleted the words, but you once said it was "orchestrated by satan". i think anything that that alters god's plan for life, i believe there's no question. i believe this is the work of evil. and to take marriage and to define it as something separate of what god designed as marriage between a man and a woman i think is wrong. and your message to gay people in america and beyond is what, that they are sinners? by definition of their gay identity, they are sinners.

well, let me put it this way — yes, but all of us are sinners. franklin graham is a sinner, you're a sinner. yeah, we may have our own reasons that make us sinners, but just to say to all gay people, by definition, "because you're gay, you are a sinner" — i just wonder if you have any empathy for the gay people watching and listening to this who might feel angered and deeply resentful that you sit here and tell me that? no, what i'm saying is all of us are guilty of breaking god's standards. the bible says all of us have broken god's laws, and therefore we are therefore sinners. and when god created man and woman... but it's only gay people that you're pointing to their sexuality and saying, "that's a sin". you're pointing it out. i'm not here preaching against gay people. excuse me, you said same sex marriage was "orchestrated by satan". you've indicated that as far as you are concerned, the bible says that it is absolutely wrong to indulge in same sex relations.

no question, it's wrong. and lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, pride is a sin. all of us have broken god's standards and his laws, and the entire human race is under a death sentence from god, stephen. all the human race, the entire human race, is under a death sentence from god. and that's why it's so important that we understand why he sent his son, jesus christ. he didn't come down here just to walk around and say "hi" to everybody. he came down here to give his life for our sins. he died for your sins and my sins, and he took our sins to the cross. and when he hung on that cross, and when he was nailed on that cross, god poured on him the sins of past, present and future, you and me. and if we're willing to repent and turn from those sins and by faith, believe on the name of his son, jesus christ, god will forgive our sins. this is my message. but isn't empathy a core christian quality and value? and i'm just wondering, have you ever imagined that a close member of yourfamily, perhaps a child or a

grandchild, were gay and how they would feel about your message to them that gay sexual relationships are sinful? i'm going to tell all of my children, which i have my grandchildren, i have 12. are any of them gay? no. do you think they would dare tell you if they were? probably. i love my family and we're honest with one another. but, no question, all of my family, i would warn them about sin. if they were living in sin, i would tell them and warn them because they're going to have to answer to god. they don't answer to me — gay people don't answer to me, they have to stand before god just like i do. and i love them enough to warn them to be truthful with them, to tell them the consequences of sin and the consequences for anybody. if we rejectjesus christ and turn our back on what he's done, we have to stand before god and give an account for our life.

i talk about christian values and — there is no question that you, with your samaritan�*s purse charitable organisation, have done some amazing and wonderful humanitarian work, notjust in the united states, but across the world. but does it feel right to you that samaritan�*s purse, for example, when it set up a field hospital in new york to help with the covid crisis back in the spring of 2020, insisted that every member of medical staff who worked in that clinic had to agree to the statement that marriage should only be between a biological man and a biological woman? we do this with staff that we deploy in field hospitals like that, because these are people that work in many different hospitals and clinics across the country. and we just want to make sure that everybody is on the same page. but this is about doctors — what does it matter what doctors think about the validity of gay marriage? it's having a team of people that is united and a team of people that are going the same direction. and so, yes, and we still do this.

see, as we go through all of these different issues and they play out internationally, notjust in the united states, it is clear that that your reputation has been damaged somewhat in some circles because of the things you say. you're on a tour of the uk, you'vejust appeared in liverpool, the mayor of merseyside, the region which liverpool sits in, has said this about your presence in his city. "to say that i'm angry that views of a known hate preacher who has an appalling track record of homophobic and islamophobic views has come to liverpool is an understatement." he is furious that you're in his city. how do you feel about that? well, first of all, i did not preach any message of hate. i didn't preach against anybody. against gay people. i didn't preach against muslim people, never brought them up. so have you toned down the franklin graham message? i've never been on that message. well, but we've just discussed a whole heap of quotations from you in the past where you were...

answering questions of people like yourself. but that's not my message. i don't go out and preach against gay people. i don't preach against muslim people. no, but people know that's what you think. because from time to time, you've said that's what you think. well, i'm honest with people. i want people to know what sin is. you are, as i said, big in facebook and you have a big presence on twitter and you talk about all sorts of things in the us sort of political world, from gun control to critical race theory. you hit those buttons which social conservatives like to hit in the united states. but i just wonder whether you think social media is helping you and your message today? i think so. cos there's an awful lot of disinformation and conspiracy theory on social media. and there are people who analyse the beliefs of christians, the kinds of people who turn up at your services. and it seems that up to 49% of them in one survey were hearing conspiracy theories being peddled

by members of the church. i don't know about that, i'm not peddling conspiracy theories. no, well, i'm not suggesting you are. but, for example, qanon theories were heard coming from the mouths of members of congregations. we know the qanon theories which some on the far—right in america have peddled are absolute nonsense. does it worry you that some god fearing christians appear to be believing this stuff? if anybody, god—fearing and not god—fearing, got involved in that crazy stuff, yes, that worries me. there are always people on the fringe of the left or the right. there's always people out there. and, yes, those things worry me very much. just a final thought, and it comes back to something we discussed early on — do you think it is important that yours is perceived to be a message that is positive and hopeful rather than fearful and full of anxiety? well, the message is hope, and the point is that there's

hope for each and every one of us before god. and if we confess our sins and repent and repent means to turn — and believe on the name of the lord jesus christ, god will forgive our sins. that's hope, knowing that we can have eternal life, that we can be forgiven by putting our faith and trust injesus christ. that's not by giving money, it's not by any works that you do. the bible says we're saved by god's grace through faith, not of works. lest any man should boast, if we could work for our salvation, we'd brag about it, we'd boast about it. but it's free. it's by god's grace. and there we must leave it, but franklin graham, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you, stephen.

hello there. the weather is certainly a bit up and down at the moment. we had a pretty good day on thursday with sunshine across much of the country, temperatures into the low 20s. but after a much quieter night, things will change again on friday with more cloud, it's going to be cooler and breezy, and there will be some rain around at times. now, we've got a weather front approaching the northwest of the uk to bring some rain. we are also seeing more cloud moving up from the south across england and wales, starting to bring some rain by the morning. we will get wetter in the morning across the southeast of england, then into east anglia, some thunderstorms just across the channel. as it gets wetter here, we will start to see some sharp showers breaking out elsewhere, a spell of rain moves across northern ireland into western scotland and northwest england in the afternoon, by which time, we should see that more persistent rain clearing to the southeast, some sunshine and even a few showers here. so it will be a cooler day,

could make 19 celsius after the rain in the southeast, 1a celsius in the central belt of scotland. and we've got a spell of rain in the evening running eastwards across scotland, northern england, once that moves away, we will have some clearer skies overnight with a few showers left over in western parts of scotland by saturday morning. by then, temperatures will be around 9—11 celsius. this is the pattern that we've got as we head into the weekend. higher pressure to the south of the uk with a west—south—westerly airflow and some weather fronts approaching northern areas. so expect a lot of cloud for northern ireland. we may well see a little bit of rain here. a bight start, i think, in scotland, those showers in the west being replaced by thicker cloud and some outbreaks of rain in the afternoon. england and wales, a good chance of staying dry, some good spells of sunshine coming through, and those temperatures reaching 21 celsius in the southeast, still only around 1a celsisus in the central belt of scotland. second half of the weekend, got to keep an eye on this weatherfront here, could bring some showers into the english channel, but otherwise, it's towards the northwest again that these weather fronts will bring in some more outbreaks of rain, particularly into scotland

and northern ireland. a bit of damp and drizzly weather coming over the irish sea into western parts of england and wales, but thorugh the midlands towards east anglia and the southeast, here it should be dry. this is where we've got the best of the sunshine and the highest temperatures, up to 23 celsius, but it should be a little bit warmer for many of us on sunday. things will change, though, into the beginning of next week, because lowering pressure means that is going to get much wetter once again, and those temperatures will be dropping away as well. goodbye.

welcome to newsday, i'm mariko 0i live from singapore. and i'm karishma vaswani coming to you live from sydney, australia. it's the day before australians decide who will be their next prime minister — incubent scott morisson or his rival labor leader anthony albanese. australia was once nicknamed the lucky country but is the rising cost of living and climate change making australia unliveable? also coming up in the programme: presidentjoe biden is on his way to south korea and japan on his first asian trip as us leader.