this is bbc news. the headlines... polls are open in australia's general election, with the opposition labor party hoping to end nine years of conservative rule. voters will choose between the incumbent scott morrison and his rival, the labor leader, anthony albanese. whoever wins has tough challenges ahead, including the cost of living and climate change. the commander of ukraine's azov regiment says his soldiers have finally ended their defence of the devastated port city of mariupol. the russian defence ministry says its forces are in complete control of the vast steelworks there. fighters from the azov regiment were holed up inside the plant for weeks, while the city suffered constant bombardment. the united states has told the uk and the european union to "lower the temperature" in their dispute over

the post—brexit trading rules in northern ireland. the senior state department official, derek chollet, warned that the row risked undermining western unity over ukraine. now on bbc news... the media show. hello. on the show today we have gotjohn micklethwait, editor in chief at bloomberg, we are taking a look at a new podcast, that charts the rise of reality tv with one of the co—hosts, pandora sykes and, wagatha christie, how can we not talk about it? and we have got one of the key players here in the whole drama, simon boyle, who is the executive editor of the sun and their bizarre column which is a0 this weekend. he faced significant pressure to stand as a witness. simon, i have got to ask, who would play you in the movie? it is funny, we actually

had this conversation in the office... what is the answer? well, my hairline is going rather quickly, probably from the stress of thisjob, so ross kemp was mooted. that is harsh. martin compston would suit me. great. and the other person we have got here isjim watterson, the guardian's media editor and you have been at the royal court ofjustice every day since the trial began, i believe. there is a whole lot of interest in this case, how long is the queue for the press each morning? it is quite extraordinary. there is a sort of queueing system and people have to get there very early, there are 20 or 30 photographers outside and it has been so popular they have had to open up another courtroom just to try and make space for the journalist that want to cover it. what that says about our industry and all the other court cases going on, well, you can make up your own mind on that. absolutely. well, more from both of you in a moment and indeed from pandora, but let us start the show with john

micklethwait, editor in chief of bloomberg, because bloomberg, famous for its financial coverage, is on a mission to become a major presence in uk news. it has launched a new subscription website and wants to rival the likes of the sunday times and the ft for business stories. john micklethwait, welcome to the media show. what have you launched then, exactly? how much does it cost and what do we get for our money? well, two things, to some extent, we are just using i what we have, we have been hiding in plain sight, - there is a newsroom behind me, somewhere, 500 people, - it is one of the biggest - newsrooms in london already. we cover 400 british - companies, we have long been a massive sort of force in the city of london. i we have got a television station, radio station, i podcast, everything - and what we are doing now is we are targeting that| at a consumer audience and our aim is to become - the main business and finance destination for people in britain and we have started our consumer- subscription business four years ago and we have already got 400,000 subscribers, - which is quite big by british standards. i we are now targeting .

the uk, because it is our second—biggest market. and who are the target audience, sorry for interrupting, but is it more than just financial news and who are you aiming it at? it is finance and business and broader in politics. l we do global news more - than anyone else, we have 2700 journalists write the way around the world, in 120 countries, we cover the globe. we also are pushing things deliberately in the british i market, westminister podcasts tomorrow, we have got some l individual things aimed - at british business and we have events here, a big office right in the middle of the city, - in an iconic building i and we think there are a lot of things that i we can do from here. we can add to british media. why now? your boss, michael bloomberg, has been claiming that the uk media is following the us path to becoming what he termed hyper partisan and hyper sensationalise, so are you saying that there is a gap in the market for essentially more impartial, fact —based news?

we think there is a bit, yes, i i think what he actually wrote was, he said that he feared that it was going in- the same direction. in america, we prospered by being absolutely- in the middle and the things that we do, you need - to be very factual. you need to be on the ground and when you do analysis - in a country, you need to really back it up - with numbers, and with facts and we look at britain - and i think there are divisions over things like brexit. - one of the first reasons why i thought this could work, i i came from being at _ the economist before, was that i sat and when we launched a brexit newsletter, - what was interesting _ was people, both from one side of the brexit debate and thenl from the other, or subscribing to it really very quickly and i think that abilityl at the moment to be able to cut through and say- what really matters, - there was a piece a couple of days ago about levelling up and we looked at all - the constituencies of britain

and went around adding upl all the places that i gone forward and sadly, therej were not very many of them. many accused us of bias in that, whilst i think. in many cases in britain, almost automatically, i when people read things, they imagine which side i they are coming from, and we are not in that category. - interesting. jim watterson, media editor at the guardian, let mejust bring you in, what do you make of the bloomberg proposition question mark well, there is just this enormous amount of competition for high end news readers who will pay a lot of money for sort of quality news. you have got the ft, you have got ben smith, my former boss at buzzfeed launching a new project, you have got the economist and you have obviously got this bloomberg offering now among many others in the real challenges, is there enough interest to sustain all of these places, because advertisers love these readers, but are there enough people, with enough time in the world, to read all of this news being produced for them and what does it mean for all the people who cannot afford to pay, because they are just left with stuff that is made on the cheap. john, just picking up on that, is the idea that people would give up their digital subscriptions, and switch to bloomberg or are you

proposing this as yet another subscription for people to pay for? i think we would make - the argument that we should be the main one, we do more coverage than anyone else when you are looking . at business and finance around the world. that is what we do and i think within britain we should be i able to get into that position . and make the same argument. even then, i think there - is a large market for people who have, i suppose, . more money than time. if you are in business, - the amount of money that subscribers, the different. competitors that you talked about, it is not that much- compared with the advantage you get from knowing things ahead of other people - and that is why i think— there is more room and what has happened and i remember back at the economist - when we were only about 400,000 people, people talked _ about there being a limit then. |the economist i think it is now| 1.6 million under a much better editor now and you look at bloomberg, we havel reached 400,000 people, i 400,000 people are paying for us in only four years on a consumer basis . and we think that has a lotl

to grow and i don't think all the evidence at the moment... jim, i am sorry to interrupt up michael sorry. i was just going to say, jim, quickly you wanted to come back in on that. i just want to say, this is what we are trying to solve at the guardian by having that model, which is outside, but still doing quality journalism, because the rest of the market is really going into different directions, either behind a pay wall orfree and done on a tight budget. 0k, both of you, please stay with us, as we do very much change direction. i mentioned at the top of the programme that we were going to take a look at the new podcast for bbc sounds about the history of reality tv, have a listen. big brother house, this is davina. reality tv created an entirely new category of celebrity and revolutionised our viewing habits — it created a genre predicated on a single, shiny modern imperative, the authentic above all else. all the problems that would plague the genre where they're from the start, confront attainment,

the effects of surveillance and the spectre of the producer, as puppet master. that was a clip from unreal, a critical history of reality tv. pandora sykes is the podcast co—presenter, pandora, welcome to the media show, it is ten parts, your show, you have got 60 interviews, i understand, in it. what did you find? that is a big question. it is indeed, i am asking for an answer and it is tough. we found that what people have been looking for since the start really, because we chart it from big brother to love ireland with 14 other shows in between in the states in the uk and what people are looking for now is what they loved about big brother then which is authenticity.

what was the answer? it depends who you are asking, one producer who was the director of big brother he pointed out that the only people who say they have been edited badly are the unpopular ones. the ones who come across well, never have any problem with the editing. you could say it is only ever an issue... that count of makes _ say it is only ever an issue... that count of makes sense. _ say it is only ever an issue... that count of makes sense. does the unpopularity come after the editing or before. we are going to take a look at wagatha christie. do you

think reality tv invented the normal person celebrity? jade think reality tv invented the normal person celebrity?— think reality tv invented the normal person celebrity? jade goody is seen as the first celebrity, _ person celebrity? jade goody is seen as the first celebrity, celebrity - as the first celebrity, celebrity famous forjust being themselves. there has been a lot of controversy about how reality has changed the nature of fame, the person without talent becoming famous, but it goes back to candid camera in the 1950s and in the 1970s she had american family and in the 1990s, the real world, it is not as new as we like to think it is, but what we do have now is a surfeit of reality stars, an entire ecosystem, he started something like love island, you want to celebrities go dating, then you go to strictly, possibly i am a celebrity get me out of here and if you are lucky, you could be a presenter like alison hammond who was on big brother and many people do not know she came from big

brother. the really successful can graduate out of it but most of them stay in the same end. [30 graduate out of it but most of them stay in the same end.— stay in the same end. do you think the uenre stay in the same end. do you think the genre has _ stay in the same end. do you think the genre has exploited _ stay in the same end. do you think the genre has exploited the - stay in the same end. do you think| the genre has exploited the desires of normal people to be famous? that is a aood of normal people to be famous? twat is a good question and it is not one that i think i could answer completely either way,, the problem is that people who want to go on reality tv are those who do not fare well on it, because the people who would fare well on reality tv are people who have a solid sense of self and are not bothered by attention. those are not the people who want to go on reality television and certainly there has been a lot around the duty of care recently, not least the four suicides that are connected to love island, including the presenter and a lot of reality stars have come forward and said, i made a deal with the devil or the producers did not look after me and iface these problems producers did not look after me and i face these problems and then you could argue, is that the fault of

the producers or is it that it is really hard to imagine how being on reality television will impact your life and the ramifications of everyone thinking you are public property? everyone thinking you are public ro.e ? ,, ., everyone thinking you are public ”roe ? ,, ., �* everyone thinking you are public ”roe ? ,, ., ., “ property? simon boyle, iwould like ou to property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come — property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come in _ property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come in on _ property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come in on this. _ property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come in on this. do - property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come in on this. do you - property? simon boyle, iwould like you to come in on this. do you treat them differently from other celebrities?— them differently from other celebrities? ., �* ., celebrities? you're right, we have covered huge _ celebrities? you're right, we have covered huge numbers _ celebrities? you're right, we have covered huge numbers of - celebrities? you're right, we have covered huge numbers of reality l covered huge numbers of reality stars _ covered huge numbers of reality stars and — covered huge numbers of reality stars and some of the really successful ones, they started life as reality — successful ones, they started life as reality stars and that is true, both_ as reality stars and that is true, both in— as reality stars and that is true, both in music and love island and bil both in music and love island and big brother and things like that. there _ big brother and things like that. there is, — big brother and things like that. there is, i— big brother and things like that. there is, ithink big brother and things like that. there is, i think people who come through— there is, i think people who come through the reality route, generally speaking, _ through the reality route, generally speaking, are seeking out fame and fortune _ speaking, are seeking out fame and fortune ideally on the back of it at every— fortune ideally on the back of it at every possible opportunity and generally speaking they are quite prepared to bear their soul, usually 'ust prepared to bear their soul, usually just for— prepared to bear their soul, usually

just for the — prepared to bear their soul, usually just for the sake of the more famous are more _ just for the sake of the more famous are more popular and potentially making _ are more popular and potentially making a — are more popular and potentially making a few quid along the way. does _ making a few quid along the way. does that— making a few quid along the way. does that make them fair game? are they people, i don't like to use the word hound, but you know what i mean? film word hound, but you know what i mean? ., ., , . word hound, but you know what i mean? ., .,, . ., ., mean? oh i would ob'ect to that, the s mbiotic mean? oh i would object to that, the symbiotic relationship _ mean? oh i would object to that, the symbiotic relationship that _ mean? oh i would object to that, the symbiotic relationship that we - mean? oh i would object to that, the symbiotic relationship that we have l symbiotic relationship that we have developed over the last ten years, it has— developed over the last ten years, it has been— developed over the last ten years, it has been a golden age for reality television. — it has been a golden age for reality television, probably started as big brother— television, probably started as big brother and the only way is essex is another— brother and the only way is essex is another show that moved the dial as well. another show that moved the dial as welt it— another show that moved the dial as welt it has— another show that moved the dial as well. it has been completely relationship —based and a lot of what _ relationship —based and a lot of what i _ relationship —based and a lot of what i do — relationship —based and a lot of what i do and a lot of my career both— what i do and a lot of my career both at— what i do and a lot of my career both at the _ what i do and a lot of my career both at the sun and in journalism has been — both at the sun and in journalism has been based on that. a lot of these _ has been based on that. a lot of these people i have come to know well, _ these people i have come to know well, you — these people i have come to know well, you become friendly, you are in fairly— well, you become friendly, you are in fairly regular contact and i guarantee, the phone rings more frequently from them asking to have something written about them, a lot of people _ something written about them, a lot of people seek attention and

publicity and sometimes that works well and _ publicity and sometimes that works well and other times i can be more dismissive — well and other times i can be more dismissive but it definitely goes both ways. dismissive but it definitely goes both wa s. ., ., ., ., both ways. pandora e were nodding about what simon _ both ways. pandora e were nodding about what simon was _ both ways. pandora e were nodding about what simon was saying. - both ways. pandora e were nodding about what simon was saying. it. about what simon was saying. it reminded me of a contestant from love island called rachel finney and i cannot remember if it made the final episode, but she said that when you come out of love island, it is very normal to call the paparazzi and anyone who says otherwise is lying. i don't know whether i think thatis lying. i don't know whether i think that is true, but certainly if you look at tabloid website there is a lot of the paps and i would agree unlike with an a—list celebrity, who i would have thought is very rarely calling the paparazzi, i think the reality stars there is more synergy. your show is called unreal and it is out now on the bbc sounds apt but i will bring simon back in, you were

talking about the relationship you have with these people, how do you maintain the relationship or are you effectively saying you do not need to, because they call you prime minister's questions it is easier with the likes of the love island stars and the proper reality stars than with the a—list stars. i stars and the proper reality stars than with the a-list stars. i would like to think _ than with the a-list stars. i would like to think we _ than with the a-list stars. i would like to think we could _ than with the a-list stars. i would like to think we could do - than with the a-list stars. i would like to think we could do it - than with the a-list stars. i would like to think we could do it across| like to think we could do it across the board, — like to think we could do it across the board, there are examples i could _ the board, there are examples i could point to and say that the way that we _ could point to and say that the way that we do— could point to and say that the way that we do things is we try and get ourselves— that we do things is we try and get ourselves into the mix of people at all levels — ourselves into the mix of people at all levels. if our readers are interested, we are interested and if something — interested, we are interested and if something like love island has a real successful series, absolutely i want _ real successful series, absolutely i want to _ real successful series, absolutely i want to get to know them and some of them come _ want to get to know them and some of them come varying degrees of success have maintained a long career. a friend _ have maintained a long career. a friend of— have maintained a long career. a friend of mine who won love island a number— friend of mine who won love island a number of— friend of mine who won love island a number of years ago, has gone on to be number of years ago, has gone on to he very— number of years ago, has gone on to be very successful on the west end, she was— be very successful on the west end, she was a _ be very successful on the west end, she was a genuinely talented woman who is— she was a genuinely talented woman who is now— she was a genuinely talented woman who is now the lead into shows and has another— who is now the lead into shows and has another one coming up and i have

stayed _ has another one coming up and i have stayed friendly with her. others less so — stayed friendly with her. others less so and there have been occasions _ less so and there have been occasions where people continue to call long _ occasions where people continue to call long after their expiry has rather— call long after their expiry has rather run _ call long after their expiry has rather run out. if you can be polite about _ rather run out. if you can be polite about it. _ rather run out. if you can be polite about it. i— rather run out. if you can be polite about it. i am _ rather run out. if you can be polite about it, i am really sorry, we are no longer— about it, i am really sorry, we are no longer interested in that story, but thank— no longer interested in that story, but thank you for calling. let no longer interested in that story, but thank you for calling.- but thank you for calling. let us brina it but thank you for calling. let us bring it onto — but thank you for calling. let us bring it onto the _ but thank you for calling. let us bring it onto the wagatha - but thank you for calling. let us i bring it onto the wagatha christie trial because maybe not everyone listening realises how heavily implicated you and your paper are in the case and for people listening, this is the big libel case in the high court between two famous footballers wives, rebekah vardy says coleen rooney libelled her accusing her of passing stories to the sun and one of those stories was under your byline about the basement flooding and coleen rooney said she planted that fake story is part of operation to catch the person making the lakes. the obvious question will be, who gave you that story? and the lakes. the obvious question will be, who gave you that story? and the answer,

be, who gave you that story? and the answer. the — be, who gave you that story? and the answer. the only _ be, who gave you that story? and the answer, the only answer— be, who gave you that story? and the answer, the only answer i _ be, who gave you that story? and the answer, the only answer i can - be, who gave you that story? and the answer, the only answer i can give . answer, the only answer i can give is the _ answer, the only answer i can give is the same — answer, the only answer i can give is the same one that we gave in the hi-h is the same one that we gave in the high court — is the same one that we gave in the high court. as you alluded to, we have _ high court. as you alluded to, we have been— high court. as you alluded to, we have been at the centre of this, certainly— have been at the centre of this, certainly we were at the beginning, the case _ certainly we were at the beginning, the case between them relates to stories— the case between them relates to stories that we carried, that is certainly— stories that we carried, that is certainly true. stories that were presented as fact online, as you say, _ presented as fact online, as you say, they— presented as fact online, as you say, they were presented as fact, directly— say, they were presented as fact, directly from coleen rooney, online, and in _ directly from coleen rooney, online, and in each _ directly from coleen rooney, online, and in each case, as it played out in court. — and in each case, as it played out in court. in — and in each case, as it played out in court, in each cage we contacted the representatives of the rooney is, and _ the representatives of the rooney is, and said it was not a problem and and — is, and said it was not a problem and and they were happy to run it. i think— and and they were happy to run it. i thinkjournalistically, we went to the proper levels of checking it out, _ the proper levels of checking it out, we — the proper levels of checking it out, we operated with integrity and there _ out, we operated with integrity and there is— out, we operated with integrity and there is no— out, we operated with integrity and there is no great secret, i do not apologise. — there is no great secret, i do not apologise, my face is in the newspaper with a byline that says if

you have _ newspaper with a byline that says if you have got a story, give me a shout — you have got a story, give me a shout i— you have got a story, give me a shout. i cannot apologise for that. that is— shout. i cannot apologise for that. that is the — shout. i cannot apologise for that. that is the business i am in. in terms — that is the business i am in. in terms of— that is the business i am in. in terms of who gave us the story, that is a direct— terms of who gave us the story, that is a direct question, we would never reveal— is a direct question, we would never reveal it. _ is a direct question, we would never reveal it. i_ is a direct question, we would never reveal it, i never would and we went to extraordinary lengths and extraordinary expense in the high court _ extraordinary expense in the high court after being pushed by both sides— court after being pushed by both sides to — court after being pushed by both sides to come to court and hand over documents _ sides to come to court and hand over documents and take the witness stand _ documents and take the witness stand. that is not something we would do — stand. that is not something we would do and actually, on a wider basis, _ would do and actually, on a wider basis, it— would do and actually, on a wider basis, it would have set a dreadful precedent — basis, it would have set a dreadful recedent. ., ., , , precedent. how did it feel to be put in opposition. _ precedent. how did it feel to be put in opposition. to — precedent. how did it feel to be put in opposition, to be _ precedent. how did it feel to be put in opposition, to be to _ precedent. how did it feel to be put in opposition, to be to reveal - precedent. how did it feel to be put in opposition, to be to reveal your. in opposition, to be to reveal your sources? presumably they were asking, they wanted to search your phone, what was that like as a journalist? my phone, what was that like as a journalist?— phone, what was that like as a 'ournalist? g , ., ., journalist? my first thought, what is on my phone- _ journalist? my first thought, what is on my phone. i— journalist? my first thought, what is on my phone. iwas— journalist? my first thought, what is on my phone. i was quite - journalist? my first thought, what j is on my phone. i was quite happy journalist? my first thought, what i is on my phone. i was quite happy to take advice _ is on my phone. i was quite happy to take advice and i knew it was not something — take advice and i knew it was not something we were going to back down on. something we were going to back down on we _ something we were going to back down on we have _ something we were going to back down on. we have always taken that stance and it _ on. we have always taken that stance

and it is— on. we have always taken that stance and it is important. notjust for us but for— and it is important. notjust for us but forjournalism as a whole. if we had but forjournalism as a whole. if we bad back— but forjournalism as a whole. if we had back down, it would have been catastrophic across the industry. it was uncomfortable and i was lucky that as _ was uncomfortable and i was lucky that as an— was uncomfortable and i was lucky that as an organisation and this is important. — that as an organisation and this is important, we are large and well funded _ important, we are large and well funded and we are in a position to take legal— funded and we are in a position to take legal advice. i was given some le-al take legal advice. i was given some legal representation and we were able to— legal representation and we were able to go to court and present an argument — able to go to court and present an argument as to why we should not and the judge _ argument as to why we should not and the judge agreed. i worry that if i had been — the judge agreed. i worry that if i had been put in that position as a freelance — had been put in that position as a freelance journalist who feared the potential _ freelance journalist who feared the potential expense of losing that money, — potential expense of losing that money, perhaps i would not have been able to— money, perhaps i would not have been able to go _ money, perhaps i would not have been able to no. ., . able to go. how much did it cost? into able to go. how much did it cost? into many — able to go. how much did it cost? into many tens— able to go. how much did it cost? into many tens of— able to go. how much did it cost? into many tens of thousands. - able to go. how much did it cost? i into many tens of thousands. people might think if rebekah vardy was not your source, why not go to court, say that and protect your actual source. ~ ., ., ., source. we get into a 'igsaw sort of rocess source. we get into a 'igsaw sort of pess and — source. we get into a 'igsaw sort of process and once _ source. we get into a jigsaw sort of process and once you're _ source. we get into a jigsaw sort of process and once you're on - source. we get into a jigsaw sort of process and once you're on the - process and once you're on the stand, _ process and once you're on the stand, there is no getting away from it, a barrister in court, they will be using —

it, a barrister in court, they will be using the most expensive barristers, is going to push hard and i_ barristers, is going to push hard and i would like to think, i have a lot of— and i would like to think, i have a lot ofjournalistic experience, i hope _ lot ofjournalistic experience, i hope i— lot ofjournalistic experience, i hope i am _ lot ofjournalistic experience, i hope i am a reasonably intelligent man, _ hope i am a reasonably intelligent man. but— hope i am a reasonably intelligent man, but the speed at which you can be tripped _ man, but the speed at which you can be tripped up by a barrister on the stand _ be tripped up by a barrister on the stand and — be tripped up by a barrister on the stand and anyone who has been in a court _ stand and anyone who has been in a court room — stand and anyone who has been in a court room knows it is not pleasant, i did court room knows it is not pleasant, i did not— court room knows it is not pleasant, i did not want to be there. as i did not want to be there. s presumably i did not want to be there. is presumably as coleen rooney says, she did not want to be there either and rebekah vardy may not want to be there either and lives have been dragged through the dirt, in this trial, and i guess you could have ended up before it even began? i ended up before it even began? i have not got a horse in this race, there _ have not got a horse in this race, there was— have not got a horse in this race, there was no— have not got a horse in this race, there was no doubt in my mind that these _ there was no doubt in my mind that these women do not like each other, they did _ these women do not like each other, they did not — these women do not like each other, they did not before, won't it now and want — they did not before, won't it now and want in _ they did not before, won't it now and want in the future. the genesis of this— and want in the future. the genesis of this case, — and want in the future. the genesis of this case, perhaps we were used as a tool— of this case, perhaps we were used as a tool in— of this case, perhaps we were used as a tool in part, our involvement for me _ as a tool in part, our involvement for me really stop there, we behaved

with integrity as journalist for me really stop there, we behaved with integrity asjournalist by protecting everyone we have spoken to and _ protecting everyone we have spoken to and we _ protecting everyone we have spoken to and we will continue to do that. the on _ to and we will continue to do that. the on that, — to and we will continue to do that. the on that, if they want to tear strips _ the on that, if they want to tear strips from _ the on that, if they want to tear strips from each other in some ungodly— strips from each other in some ungodly soap opera, who am i to stop them? _ ungodly soap opera, who am i to stop them? i_ ungodly soap opera, who am i to stop them? ifeel— ungodly soap opera, who am i to stop them? i feel they have both had any number— them? i feel they have both had any number of— them? i feel they have both had any number of opportunities and i do mean _ number of opportunities and i do mean both— number of opportunities and i do mean both of them, to come to the table. _ mean both of them, to come to the table, discussed this and the money on the _ table, discussed this and the money on the table, we are talking in excess — on the table, we are talking in excess of— on the table, we are talking in excess of £2 million and it has been suggested _ excess of £2 million and it has been suggested by onlookers, perhaps that money— suggested by onlookers, perhaps that money would have been better spent — money would have been better spent it_ money would have been better sent... . ., money would have been better sent... �* ., ., money would have been better sent... . ., ., ., , money would have been better sent... ., ., ., , ., spent... a lot of the details that came out _ spent... a lot of the details that came out have _ spent... a lot of the details that came out have revealed, - spent... a lot of the details that came out have revealed, pretty| came out have revealed, pretty unseemly relationship between celebrities, agents, newspapers, do you see what this is as damaging to your profession? let you see what this is as damaging to your profession?— your profession? let us start with the basics, _ your profession? let us start with the basics, absolutely, _ your profession? let us start with the basics, absolutely, it- your profession? let us start with the basics, absolutely, it is- your profession? let us start with the basics, absolutely, it is not. the basics, absolutely, it is not something i would ever have tried to

orchestrate — something i would ever have tried to orchestrate myself. it demonstrates that any— orchestrate myself. it demonstrates that any notion that what appears in tabloid _ that any notion that what appears in tabloid newspapers is not very often well sourced or well put together and if— well sourced or well put together and if the — well sourced or well put together and if the suggestion is and i and if the _ and if the suggestion is and i and if the suggestion is that we are talking — if the suggestion is that we are talking directly to people who are intimately involved in football, music, — intimately involved in football, music, all— intimately involved in football, music, all the sports, intimately involved in football, music, allthe sports, in intimately involved in football, music, all the sports, in film and whatever— music, all the sports, in film and whatever else, i think that we are. i whatever else, i think that we are. i don't _ whatever else, i think that we are. i don't feel— whatever else, i think that we are. i don't feel that the suggestion that we — i don't feel that the suggestion that we speak to people intimately involved _ that we speak to people intimately involved in any of the creative arts or sports _ involved in any of the creative arts or sports that readers are interested in, again, i make no secret— interested in, again, i make no secret about howl interested in, again, i make no secret about how i feel, i am a showbiz— secret about how i feel, i am a showbizjournalist, i go out frequently, i go to parties, events and concerts, like to meet people and concerts, like to meet people and if— and concerts, like to meet people and if i _ and concerts, like to meet people and if i can— and concerts, like to meet people and if i can form a relationship, i always— and if i can form a relationship, i always will, _ and if i can form a relationship, i always will, it is nice to stay in touch— always will, it is nice to stay in touch with _ always will, it is nice to stay in touch with people and i hope the vast majority of ourjournalism is positive, — vast majority of ourjournalism is positive, it — vast majority of ourjournalism is positive, it is engaging with our readers — positive, it is engaging with our readers and engaging with the

industry— readers and engaging with the industry and i don't think there is any thing — industry and i don't think there is any thing wrong with having relationships.— any thing wrong with having relationshi s. g ., , , ., relationships. jim, what is your reaction? _ on what is your reaction? simon found himself _ on what is your reaction? simon found himself in _ on what is your reaction? simon found himself in that _ on what is your reaction? simon found himself in that position i on what is your reaction? simon | found himself in that position and no journalist wants to be where you are the story. it has been an extraordinary exposure of how journalism works. it is rare that you never want to see how a sausage is made, it is not particularly pleasant. one thing to take away from the trial, there has been a lot of details, this is millions of pounds being spent on something that i don't think anyone could argue is a particularly good use of anyone's

time and in the same ways that libel laws can be used by rich people to fight on small things, they can also be used to keep the secrets of russian oligarchs out of places and be used, in the case ofjohn, more a privacy case, but our courts are making it harderforjournalists. making it harder for journalists. this making it harderforjournalists. this is true. courts favour the rich and powerful and it is important journalistically, any of us as journalistically, any of us as journalist could find ourselves in a position to challenge some of that status quo, to challenge both pressure from wealthy people to reveal a source or pressure in the case ofjohn and others, to keep their identity anonymous, about something unpleasant, we need to take those opportunities. the great shame and the _ take those opportunities. the great shame and the problem _ take those opportunities. the great shame and the problem is - take those opportunities. the great shame and the problem is the - take those opportunities. the great shame and the problem is the huge expense _ shame and the problem is the huge expense involved and i spent one day

in court _ expense involved and i spent one day in court and _ expense involved and i spent one day in court and a couple of days beforehand speaking with lawyers and it would _ beforehand speaking with lawyers and it would not surprise me at all if our bill— it would not surprise me at all if our bill ran— it would not surprise me at all if our bill ran into tens of thousands of pounds — our bill ran into tens of thousands of pounds. that is the sort of market — of pounds. that is the sort of market you are in with this and it is really— market you are in with this and it is really dangerous. ifjustice is not available to most people and of openjustice is not available, we are getting ourselves into murky territory — are getting ourselves into murky territory and the mp case is an example. _ territory and the mp case is an example, constituents have no idea that their— example, constituents have no idea that their mp is not accessible to them _ that their mp is not accessible to them and — that their mp is not accessible to them and it is not in a position to help— them and it is not in a position to help them — them and it is not in a position to help them if they have a problem and they could _ help them if they have a problem and they could still be engaging with them, _ they could still be engaging with them, expecting something to be done and whether or not they will be told that they _ and whether or not they will be told that they cannot help, that is a murky— that they cannot help, that is a murky position and as a journalistic industry. _ murky position and as a journalistic industry. it— murky position and as a journalistic industry, it is when we need to club together— industry, it is when we need to club together on— industry, it is when we need to club together on and stick with. jim, industry, it is when we need to club together on and stick with.- together on and stick with. jim, do ou aeree together on and stick with. jim, do you agree that _ together on and stick with. jim, do you agree that libel _ together on and stick with. jim, do you agree that libel laws _ together on and stick with. jim, do you agree that libel laws have - together on and stick with. jim, do | you agree that libel laws have been made for the celebrities? it is you agree that libel laws have been made for the celebrities?— made for the celebrities? it is a stran . e made for the celebrities? it is a strange situation _ made for the celebrities? it is a strange situation where - made for the celebrities? it is a strange situation where we - made for the celebrities? it is a| strange situation where we have made for the celebrities? it is a - strange situation where we have got that effect the sun can affect

bloomberg and also the instagram account of coleen rooney. we all have to deal with the same issues and we all end up being held to the same standards. i think libel law in the uk is in need of another look, the uk is in need of another look, the extent to which can be used to bully people around the edges, were people might not want to take the story on because of the risk. that is it for today. thank you to my guess.

goodbye. the weather has been drying out after the earlier rain and it really was quite heavy on friday across some parts of the country. you can see through early saturday there's hardly any rain around, just in the west of scotland, a few showers and clear skies for many of us, however some mist and murk here around the coast of wales and south west england. sunshine right from the word go for many of us, but through the morning into the afternoon, it will cloud over across ireland and scotland and perhaps turning quite hazy in the west. a weather front approaches and that does spell occasional rain for northern ireland and scotland and hear the

temperatures will be disappointing, only 14 in glasgow and in sunny london and norwich, temperatures close to around 20 degrees. how about sunday, the best of the weather in the east and south and in the north west, at times.

this is bbc news — i'm rich preston. our top stories. polls are open in australia's general election, with voters choosing between the incumbent scott morrison and his rival, the labor leader anthony albanese. voting is under way, between scott morrison and the labour party leader. the commander of ukraine's azov regiment says his soldiers have finally ended their defence of the devastated port city of mariupol. the world health organization convenes a meeting to discuss the global rise in monkeypox infections — more than 100 cases are reported across 11 countries outside africa.