hello this is bbc news with lukwesa burak. the headlines... celebrations for australia's labor party as it wins the country's general election. it means this man, anthony albanese, is set to form the next government though it's not yet clear whether it will be a majority or minority administration. it says a lot about our great country that a son of a single mum who was a pensioner who grew

up in public housing, can stand before you tonight as australia's prime minister. we'll have the latest on what this means for australia — and for the world. also this hour. opposition parties demand an explaination from borisjohnson, after he met with the senior civil servant, sue gray, ahead of the publication of her report into lockdown parties at downing street. two people have been taken to hospital after a stand collapsed during a trooping the colour rehearsal in central london. pharmacists have been given temporary power to make swaps to women's hormone replacement therapy prescriptions, amid ongoing shortages. now on bbc news, the media show. hello. on the show today we have gotjohn micklethwait, editor in chief at bloomberg,

we are taking a look at a new podcast, that charts the rise of reality tv with one of the co—hosts, pandora sykes and, wagatha christie, how can we not talk about it? and we have got one of the key players here in the whole drama, simon boyle, who is the executive editor of the sun and their bizarre column which is a0 this weekend. he faced significant pressure to stand as a witness. simon, i have got to ask, who would play you in the movie? it is funny, we actually had this conversation in the office... what is the answer? well, my hairline is going rather quickly, probably from the stress of thisjob, so ross kemp was mooted. that is harsh. martin compston would suit me. great. and the other person we have got here isjim watterson, the guardian's media editor and you have been at the royal court ofjustice every day since the trial began, i believe. there is a whole lot of interest in this case, how long is the queue for the press each morning? it is quite extraordinary. there is a sort of queueing system and people have to get there very early, there are 20 or 30

photographers outside and it has been so popular they have had to open up another courtroom just to try and make space for the journalists that want to cover it. what that says about our industry and all the other court cases going on, well, you can make up your own mind on that. absolutely. well, more from both of you in a moment and indeed from pandora, but let us start the show with john micklethwait, editor in chief of bloomberg, because bloomberg, famous for its financial coverage, is on a mission to become a major presence in uk news. it has launched a new subscription website and wants to rival the likes of the sunday times and the ft for business stories. john micklethwait, welcome to the media show. what have you launched then, exactly? how much does it cost and what do we get for our money? well, two things, to some extent, we are just using i what we have, we have been hiding in plain sight, - there is a newsroom behind me, somewhere, 500 people, - it is one of the biggest - newsrooms in london already. we cover 400 british - companies, we have long been a massive sort of force in the city of london. i we have got a television

station, radio station, i podcasts, everything - and what we are doing now is we are targeting that| at a consumer audience and our aim is to become - the main business and finance destination for people in britain. and we have started our consumer- subscription business four years ago and we have already got 400,000 subscribers, - which is quite big by british standards. i we are now targeting . the uk, because it is our second—biggest market. and who are the target audience, sorry for interrupting, but is it more than just financial news and who are you aiming it at? it is finance and business and broader in politics. l we do global news more perhaps than anyone else, we have 2700| journalists write the way around the world, in 120 countries, we cover the globe. we also are pushing things deliberately in the british i market, westminister podcast tomorrow, we have got somel individual things aimed - at british business and we have events here, a big office right

in the middle of the city, - in an iconic building i and we think there are a lot of things that i we can do from here. and add to british media. why now? _ your boss, michael bloomberg, has been claiming that the uk media is following the us path to becoming what he termed hyper partisan and highly sensationalised, so are you saying that there is a gap in the market for essentially more impartial, fact—based news? we think there is a bit, yes, i i think what he actually wrote was, he said that he feared that it was going in- the same direction. in america, we prospered by being absolutely- in the middle and the things that we do, you need - to be very factual. you need to be on the ground and when you do analysis - and commentary, you need to really back it up - with numbers, and with facts and we look at britain - and i think there are divisions over things like brexit. - one of the first reasons why - i thought this could work in the uk, i came from being at _ the economist before, was that

i sat and when we launched a brexit newsletter, - what was interesting _ was people, both from one side of the brexit debate and then . from the other, were subscribing to it really very quickly and i think that abilityl at the moment to be able to cut through and say- what really matters, - there was a piece a couple of days ago about levelling up and we looked at all - the constituencies of britain and went around adding upl all the places that had gone forward and sadly, there . were not very many of them. many accused us of bias in that, whilst i think. in many cases in britain, almost automatically, i when people read things, they imagine which side i they are coming from, and we are not in that category. - interesting. jim watterson, media editor at the guardian, let mejust bring you in, what do you make of the bloomberg proposition? there is just this enormous amount of competition for high end news readers who will pay a lot of money for sort of quality news. you have got the ft, you have got ben smith, my former boss at buzzfeed launching a new project, you have got the economist and you have obviously got this bloomberg offering now among many others.

the real challenge, is there enough interest to sustain all of these places, because advertisers love these readers, but are there enough people, with enough time in the world, to read all of this news being produced for them and what does it mean for all the people who cannot afford a paywall, because they are just left with stuff that is made on the cheap. john, just picking up on that, is the idea that people would give up their digital subscriptions, and switch to bloomberg or are you proposing this as yet another subscription for people to pay for? i think we would make - the argument that we should be the main one, we do more coverage than anyone else when you are looking . at business and finance around the world. that is what we do and i think within britain we should be i able to get into that position . and make the same argument. even then, i think there - is a large market for people who have, i suppose, . more money than time. if you are in business, - the amount of money that subscribers, the different. competitors that you talked about, it is not that much- compared with the advantage you get from knowing things

ahead of other people - and that is why i think there is more room. i and what has happened and i remember back at the economist - when we were only about 400,000 people, people talked _ about there being a limit then. |the economist i think it is now| 1.6 million under a much better editor now and you look at bloomberg, we havel reached 400,000 people, i 400,000 people are paying for us in only four years on a consumer basis . and we think that has a lotl to grow and i don't think all the evidence at the moment... jim, i am sorry to interrupt. i was just going to say, jim, quickly you wanted to come back in on that. i just want to say, this is what we are trying to solve at the guardian by having that model, which is outside, outside a paywall, but still doing qualityjournalism, because the rest of the market is really going into different directions, either behind a pay wall orfree and done on a tight budget.

0k, both of you, please stay with us, as we do very much change direction. i mentioned at the top of the programme that we were going to take a look at the new podcast for bbc sounds about the history of reality tv, have a listen. big brother house, this is davina. reality tv created an entirely new category of celebrity and revolutionised our viewing habits — it created a genre predicated on a single, shiny modern on a single, shining moral imperative, the authentic above all else. all the problems that would plague the genre were they're from the start, confrontainment, the effects of surveillance and the spectre of the producer, as puppet master. that was a clip from unreal, a critical history of reality tv. pandora sykes is the podcast co—presenter, pandora, welcome to the media show, it is ten parts, your show, you have got 60 interviews, i understand, in it. what did you find? that is a big question. it is indeed, i am asking for an answer and it is tough. we found that what people have been looking for since the start really, because we chart it from

big brother to love ireland with 14 other shows in between, in the states in the uk, and what people are looking for now is what they loved about big brother then which is authenticity. the tension reality tv exploits is that who you are, who you think your is not who others often see you to be. a lot of over, the producers edited me badly. and increasing ethical concerns about the format. we want to look at who the responsibility lies with, the people who go on television, a matter of self—regulation or does it lie with the commissioners? find self-regulation or does it lie with the commissioners?— the commissioners? and the producers? _ the commissioners? and the producers? what _ the commissioners? and the producers? what was - the commissioners? and the producers? what was the - the commissioners? and the - producers? what was the answer? it de-ends producers? what was the answer? it depends who — producers? what was the answer? it depends who you — producers? what was the answer? it depends who you are _ producers? what was the answer? it depends who you are asking. - producers? what was the answer? it depends who you are asking. one i depends who you are asking. 0ne producer pointed out to me, phil edgarjones, creative director of big brotherfor ten edgarjones, creative director of big brother for ten years, edgarjones, creative director of big brotherfor ten years, the only people who said they had been edited

but they are the unpopular ones. they ones who come across well never have any problem with the editing. you could say it is only ever an issue that it that kind of makes sense, doesn't it?— sense, doesn't it? does the unpopularity. _ sense, doesn't it? does the unpopularity, after - sense, doesn't it? does the unpopularity, after or - sense, doesn't it? does the | unpopularity, after or before sense, doesn't it? does the - unpopularity, after or before your i suppose? in a bit, what it tells us about celebrities, wagatha christie. jade goody is largely seen as a celebrity famous for simply being themselves. a lot of controversy about how reality tv has changed the nature of celebrity and fame, the ordinary person without talent becoming famous. actually it goes way back to candid camera in the 50s. in the 19705, american way back to candid camera in the 505. in the 19705, american family, in the 19905, the real world. it is

not as new as we like to think it is. what we have now is a surfeit of reality stars, an entire ecosystem. something like love island, celebs go accommodating, strictly, i'm a celebrity get me out of here. if you are lucky, you could be like alison hammond and be a presenter. many don't know she came from big brother now. do don't know she came from big brother now. y ., ~ don't know she came from big brother now. i. ~ .,, now. do you think the genre has exloited now. do you think the genre has exploited ordinary _ now. do you think the genre has exploited ordinary people's - now. do you think the genre has i exploited ordinary people's desires to be famous? that exploited ordinary people's desires to be famous?— to be famous? that is a good question. _ to be famous? that is a good question, not _ to be famous? that is a good question, not one _ to be famous? that is a good question, not one i _ to be famous? that is a good question, not one i think- to be famous? that is a good question, not one i think i . to be famous? that is a good i question, not one i thinki could question, not one i think i could answer completely either way because the problem is, people who want to go on reality tv by and large are people who do not fare well on it. the people who would fare well on reality tv have a solid sense of self, are not really bothered by attention. certainly, there has been

attention. certainly, there has been a lot around the duty of care recently, not least the four suicide is connected to love island, including presenter caroline flack. lots of reality 5tar5 including presenter caroline flack. lots of reality stars have come forward saying i have made a deal with the devil, the producers did not hook up to me. is that the producers' fault for cutting them? it is hard to imagine how being on reality tv would impact your life and the ramifications of everyone thinking you are public property. executive editor of showbiz at the sun, bizarwill executive editor of showbiz at the sun, bizar will have charted the 5un, bizar will have charted the rise of lots of these reality tv stars in the last decade. do you treat them differently? we have covered to _ treat them differently? we have covered to huge _ treat them differently? we have covered to huge amounts - treat them differently? we have covered to huge amounts of - treat them differently? we have i covered to huge amounts of reality start, _ covered to huge amounts of reality start, the — covered to huge amounts of reality start, the successful one started as reality— start, the successful one started as reality stars, it is true. in music

and _ reality stars, it is true. in music and conventionally with kat big brother— and conventionally with kat big brother and love island and things like that — brother and love island and things like that i— brother and love island and things like that. i think people who come through— like that. i think people who come through the reality route generally speaking _ through the reality route generally speaking are seeking out fame and fortune _ speaking are seeking out fame and fortune i_ speaking are seeking out fame and fortune i think on the back of it at every— fortune i think on the back of it at every possible opportunity, generally have been more accessible, prepared _ generally have been more accessible, prepared to _ generally have been more accessible, prepared to bear their soul for the sake _ prepared to bear their soul for the sake of— prepared to bear their soul for the sake of being more famous, potentially making a few quid on the way. potentially making a few quid on the wa . , ., potentially making a few quid on the wa. , ., ., ., way. does that make them fair game in our way. does that make them fair game in your mind. — way. does that make them fair game in your mind, people _ way. does that make them fair game in your mind, people you _ way. does that make them fair game in your mind, people you are - way. does that make them fair game in your mind, people you are more . in your mind, people you are more willing to i do not want to use the word count but you know what i mean? i would object to the word hound, the symbiotic relationship we have developed with these people over the last 10—15 years, a real boom for reality television, probably started with big brother, and the only way is essex. it has been completely

relationship —based. at the son, lots of these people i have come to know really quite well, you become friendly, in fairly regular contact. i guarantee the phone rings more frequently from them asking if you can write something than the other way around, lots of people seek attention and publicity. sometimes it works well for us and our readers, othertimes it works well for us and our readers, other times slightly more dismissive. it readers, other times slightly more dismissive. ., , readers, other times slightly more dismissive-— dismissive. it goes both ways. pandora. _ dismissive. it goes both ways. pandora. you _ dismissive. it goes both ways. pandora, you are _ dismissive. it goes both ways. pandora, you are noting - dismissive. it goes both ways. i pandora, you are noting earlier. dismissive. it goes both ways. - pandora, you are noting earlier. it was reminding me of a contestant from love island who we interviewed, rachel finney, cannot remember if it made the final episode because we had a lot of footage. she was saying when you come out of love island it is normal to call the paparazzi, anyone who says otherwise is lying. i do not know if that is true but if you work on tabloid websites, i

would agree there is much more unlike with an a—list celebrity who i would have thought it's very rarely calling the paparazzi, reality stars, certainly much more of a synergy. reality stars, certainly much more of a synergy-— of a synergy. unreal, critical history of — of a synergy. unreal, critical history of reality _ of a synergy. unreal, critical history of reality tv, - of a synergy. unreal, critical history of reality tv, out - of a synergy. unreal, critical| history of reality tv, out now of a synergy. unreal, critical- history of reality tv, out now on bbc sounds app. how do you maintain the relationship to keep the stories flowing? are you effectively saying you don't need to really because they are always calling you? it is they are always calling you? it is easier with _ they are always calling you? it is easier with the _ they are always calling you? it is easier with the likes of love island and the _ easier with the likes of love island and the proper reality stars than with the — and the proper reality stars than with the aim listed. we'd like to think— with the aim listed. we'd like to think we — with the aim listed. we'd like to think we can do it across the board, i think we can do it across the board, i can— think we can do it across the board, i can think— think we can do it across the board, i can think of— think we can do it across the board, i can think of some examples to point _ i can think of some examples to point to— i can think of some examples to point to to — i can think of some examples to point to to say the way we do things generally— point to to say the way we do things generally speaking is we try to get oursetves— generally speaking is we try to get ourselves into the mix at all levels to stop _ ourselves into the mix at all levels to stop if _ ourselves into the mix at all levels to stop if our readers are interested, we are interested. something like love island, if it is

successful— something like love island, if it is successful i want to know the people on it, _ successful i want to know the people on it. get— successful i want to know the people on it. get to — successful i want to know the people on it, get to know them and stay with them — on it, get to know them and stay with them. some with varying degrees of success— with them. some with varying degrees of success have maintained a career lon- of success have maintained a career long beyond. a friend of mine who won several years ago was successful on the _ won several years ago was successful on the west— won several years ago was successful on the west end twister talented young _ on the west end twister talented young woman, they were leading two shows, _ young woman, they were leading two shows, another one coming. i have stayed _ shows, another one coming. i have stayed friendly with her throughout. others _ stayed friendly with her throughout. 0thers less so. definitely occasions in the _ 0thers less so. definitely occasions in the reality fear were people continue — in the reality fear were people continue to call long after their ekpiry— continue to call long after their expiry has rather run out. if you can be — expiry has rather run out. if you can be polite and general, we are no longer— can be polite and general, we are no longer too _ can be polite and general, we are no longer too interested in that story, thanks— longer too interested in that story, thanks for— longer too interested in that story, thanks for calling. the longer too interested in that story, thanks for calling.— thanks for calling. the wagatha christie trial, _ thanks for calling. the wagatha christie trial, maybe _ thanks for calling. the wagatha christie trial, maybe not - thanks for calling. the wagatha i christie trial, maybe not everyone realises how implicated you and your paper are in that case. the big libel case playing out in the high court, two wives of famous

footballers, accusations for coleen rooney of libel, passing stories to the son. and basement flooding, coleen rooney says she irreverently planted the story. who gave you that story? planted the story. who gave you that sto ? ., , ., story? the same answer we gave in the hiuh story? the same answer we gave in the high court _ story? the same answer we gave in the high court a _ story? the same answer we gave in the high court a week _ story? the same answer we gave in the high court a week or— story? the same answer we gave in the high court a week or so - story? the same answer we gave in the high court a week or so ago. i story? the same answer we gave in l the high court a week or so ago. the case between the two of them were linked _ case between the two of them were linked to— case between the two of them were linked to stories... that case between the two of them were linked to stories. . ._ linked to stories... that turned out not to be true. _ linked to stories... that turned out not to be true. were _ linked to stories... that turned out not to be true. were presented - linked to stories... that turned out not to be true. were presented as| not to be true. were presented as fact online. _ not to be true. were presented as fact online. as _ not to be true. were presented as fact online, as you _ not to be true. were presented as fact online, as you say, _ not to be true. were presented as fact online, as you say, directly i fact online, as you say, directly from _ fact online, as you say, directly from coleen rooney. in each case they play— from coleen rooney. in each case they play out in court. we contacted

they play out in court. we contacted the rooney— they play out in court. we contacted the rooney two representatives, we are not— the rooney two representatives, we are not going to —— rooneys representatives, is generous we went to the _ representatives, is generous we went to the proper levels of checking it out, we _ to the proper levels of checking it out, we operated with integrity. there _ out, we operated with integrity. there is — out, we operated with integrity. there is no _ out, we operated with integrity. there is no great secret, my face is in the _ there is no great secret, my face is in the newspaper six days a week saying. _ in the newspaper six days a week saying, have you got a story? give us a _ saying, have you got a story? give us a shout — saying, have you got a story? give us a shout. that is the business we are in _ us a shout. that is the business we are in in_ us a shout. that is the business we are in. in terms of who gave us the story, _ are in. in terms of who gave us the story, we _ are in. in terms of who gave us the story, we would never reveal it, i never _ story, we would never reveal it, i never will, — story, we would never reveal it, i never will, extraordinary lengths and expense in the high court a week orso and expense in the high court a week or so ago— and expense in the high court a week or so ago after being pushed by both sides to _ or so ago after being pushed by both sides to come to court, had over some _ sides to come to court, had over some documents and take the witness stand, _ some documents and take the witness stand. that _ some documents and take the witness stand, that are simply not something we would _ stand, that are simply not something we would ever do. on a wider basis would _ we would ever do. on a wider basis would set _ we would ever do. on a wider basis would set a — we would ever do. on a wider basis would set a general president for journalism across the board, newspapers and broadcasters. how did

it feel to be asked _ newspapers and broadcasters. how did it feel to be asked to _ newspapers and broadcasters. how did it feel to be asked to review _ newspapers and broadcasters. how did it feel to be asked to review your- it feel to be asked to review your sources? presumably they wanted to set a phone, for example. what was that like as a journalist? i set a phone, for example. what was that like as a journalist?— that like as a “ournalist? i was ruite that like as a “ournalist? i was quite happy — that like as a journalist? i was quite happy to _ that like as a journalist? i was quite happy to take _ that like as a journalist? i was quite happy to take some - that like as a journalist? i was l quite happy to take some advice that like as a journalist? i was quite happy to take some advice at our end. _ quite happy to take some advice at our end. i— quite happy to take some advice at our end, i knew it was not something we were _ our end, i knew it was not something we were going to immediately bite down _ we were going to immediately bite down on _ we were going to immediately bite down on because we have always taken that stance _ down on because we have always taken that stance with a source, not just for us _ that stance with a source, not just for us but — that stance with a source, not just for us but a — that stance with a source, not just for us but a potentially catastrophic precedent for journalism as a whole. as an organisation, we are large and well funded _ organisation, we are large and well funded. we were in a position to take _ funded. we were in a position to take some — funded. we were in a position to take some legal advice. i was given some _ take some legal advice. i was given some legal— take some legal advice. i was given some legal representation, we went to court— some legal representation, we went to court and present that argument as to _ to court and present that argument as to why— to court and present that argument as to why we shouldn't. the judge agreed _ as to why we shouldn't. the judge agreed with us. perhaps us journalist i worry you see the potential— journalist i worry you see the potential expense in losing the money— potential expense in losing the money perhaps i would not have been

ablem _ money perhaps i would not have been able... ., . ., , money perhaps i would not have been able- - -— manyi able... how much does it cost? many tens of thousands, _ able... how much does it cost? many tens of thousands, i _ able... how much does it cost? many tens of thousands, i would _ able... how much does it cost? many tens of thousands, i would have - tens of thousands, i would have thought — tens of thousands, i would have thought. if tens of thousands, i would have thou:ht. , ., , , thought. if rebekah vardy people will be thinking _ thought. if rebekah vardy people will be thinking why _ thought. if rebekah vardy people will be thinking why don't - thought. if rebekah vardy people will be thinking why don't you - thought. if rebekah vardy people will be thinking why don't you say j will be thinking why don't you say that and protect your actual source. it is not as simple as that. 0nce it is not as simple as that. once you are — it is not as simple as that. once you are on — it is not as simple as that. once you are on this time, there is no getting — you are on this time, there is no getting away from it, the most expensive barristers in the business, pushing hard and fast, i would _ business, pushing hard and fast, i would like — business, pushing hard and fast, i would like to thank i hope i am relatively— would like to thank i hope i am relatively articulate and reasonably intelligent. but the speed at which you can _ intelligent. but the speed at which you can be — intelligent. but the speed at which you can be tripped up and tied the knot by— you can be tripped up and tied the knot by a — you can be tripped up and tied the knot by a barrister on the stand, anyone — knot by a barrister on the stand, anyone who has been in court knows it is very— anyone who has been in court knows it is very intimidating. | anyone who has been in court knows it is very intimidating.— it is very intimidating. i simply did not want _ it is very intimidating. i simply did not want to _ it is very intimidating. i simply did not want to be _ it is very intimidating. i simply did not want to be there. - it is very intimidating. i simply did not want to be there. as . did not want to be there. as presumably coleen rooney, and rebekah vardy at the moment. people whose lives have been dragged through the dirt like those two, i am sure you could have ended it

before it began. i am sure you could have ended it before it began.— before it began. i have not got a horse in this _ before it began. i have not got a horse in this race. _ before it began. i have not got a horse in this race. there - before it began. i have not got a horse in this race. there is - before it began. i have not got a horse in this race. there is no i horse in this race. there is no doubt — horse in this race. there is no doubt in — horse in this race. there is no doubt in my— horse in this race. there is no doubt in my mind these are two women who did _ doubt in my mind these are two women who did not _ doubt in my mind these are two women who did not before like each other, don't _ who did not before like each other, don't now— who did not before like each other, don't now and vote in the future. we the journalists, perhaps we were used _ the journalists, perhaps we were used as— the journalists, perhaps we were used as a — the journalists, perhaps we were used as a tool in part. our involvement from me really stops there _ involvement from me really stops there we — involvement from me really stops there. we have behaved with integrity— there. we have behaved with integrity by protecting anyone we have ever — integrity by protecting anyone we have ever spoken to and will continue _ have ever spoken to and will continue to do that and definitely at almost — continue to do that and definitely at almost any cost. beyond that, if they want — at almost any cost. beyond that, if they want to tear strips off each other _ they want to tear strips off each other in— they want to tear strips off each other in a — they want to tear strips off each other in a slightly ungodly soap opera, — other in a slightly ungodly soap opera, who am i to stop them? they have had _ opera, who am i to stop them? they have had any— opera, who am i to stop them? they have had any number of apple opportunities. we are talking about millions— opportunities. we are talking about millions of— opportunities. we are talking about millions of pounds. it has been suggested online by onlookers perhaps— suggested online by onlookers perhaps that money could have been better— perhaps that money could have been better spent. onlyr perhaps that money could have been better spent-— better spent. only rich people can do libel cases, _ better spent. only rich people can do libel cases, i—

better spent. only rich people can do libel cases, ithink. _ better spent. only rich people can do libel cases, i think. a - better spent. only rich people can do libel cases, i think. a lot - better spent. only rich people can do libel cases, i think. a lot of. do libel cases, i think. a lot of the details that came out have revealed pretty unseemly relationship between celebrities, agents, papers like yours. do you see what is coming out as damaging to your profession? loath? see what is coming out as damaging to your profession?— to your profession? why stop with the very basics. — to your profession? why stop with the very basics, i _ to your profession? why stop with the very basics, i wish _ to your profession? why stop with the very basics, i wish it _ to your profession? why stop with the very basics, i wish it had - to your profession? why stop with | the very basics, i wish it had never come _ the very basics, iwish it had never come to— the very basics, i wish it had never come to what it has. it is not something i would ever have tried to orchestrate — something i would ever have tried to orchestrate myself. what it demonstrates is that any notion that what appears in tabloid newspapers is not _ what appears in tabloid newspapers is not very— what appears in tabloid newspapers is not very often very well sourced and very _ is not very often very well sourced and very well put together, if the suggestion is, and i am not, this will play— suggestion is, and i am not, this will play out in court anyway, if the suggestion as we are talking directly— the suggestion as we are talking directly to people intimately involved in football, music, other sports. _ involved in football, music, other sports, film, whatever else, iwould like to— sports, film, whatever else, iwould like to think — sports, film, whatever else, iwould like to think that we are. i do not feel the — like to think that we are. i do not feel the suggestion that we speak to people _ feel the suggestion that we speak to people intimately involved in any of the creative arts or sports that our

readers _ the creative arts or sports that our readers are — the creative arts or sports that our readers are interested in, i make no secret— readers are interested in, i make no secret about — readers are interested in, i make no secret about what i do, i am an entertainment, showbizjournalist, entertainment, showbiz journalist, gathered _ entertainment, showbiz journalist, gathered frequently, entertainment, showbizjournalist, gathered frequently, go to parties, events, _ gathered frequently, go to parties, events, concerts, like to meet people — events, concerts, like to meet people it— events, concerts, like to meet people. if i_ events, concerts, like to meet people. if i can form a relationship i people. if i can form a relationship ialways— people. if i can form a relationship i always will. i have the vast majority _ i always will. i have the vast majority of the journalism review is not tawdry— majority of the journalism review is not tawdry or voyeuristic but positive, _ not tawdry or voyeuristic but positive, engaging with our readers and the _ positive, engaging with our readers and the industry we are talking about — and the industry we are talking about i— and the industry we are talking about. i do not think there is any shame _ about. i do not think there is any shame in— about. i do not think there is any shame in that. jim about. i do not think there is any shame in that.— about. i do not think there is any shame in that. jim waterson, media editor at the — shame in that. jim waterson, media editor at the guardian,, _ shame in that. jim waterson, media editor at the guardian,, may - shame in that. jim waterson, media editor at the guardian,, may be - shame in that. jim waterson, media editor at the guardian,, may be the | editor at the guardian,, may be the sun will offer you a job after your brilliant coverage of the wagatha christie trial. what is your reaction to what simon has been saying. reaction to what simon has been sa inc. ., , saying. found himself in the osition saying. found himself in the position where _ saying. found himself in the

position where he _ saying. found himself in the position where he is - saying. found himself in the position where he is the - saying. found himself in the l position where he is the story. saying. found himself in the - position where he is the story. it is rarely ever want to see how a sausage is made, not particularly pleasant sausage in this case. i think there is one particular thing to take away from the trial, though there have been lots of salacious details, this is an example of millions of pounds being spent on something i do not think anyone could really argue is particularly good use of every one �*s could really argue is particularly good use of every one '5 time. in the same way our libel laws can be used by rich people to fight on small things, who leaked a story or not, they can also be used to keep the secrets of russian oligarchs out of places, used... our courts are increasingly making it harder for journalists to have libel cases... eco system unfortunately favours the rich and powerful, it is important injournalism if anyone is rich and powerful, it is important in journalism if anyone is a generous found ourselves in a

position to challenge the status quo, pressure from wealthy people to reveal a source, pressure injohn's and many other cases to keep identity anonymous among something unpleasant or something the public should be aware of, we need to take those opportunities. the should be aware of, we need to take those opportunities.— should be aware of, we need to take those opportunities. the great shame and problem — those opportunities. the great shame and problem is _ those opportunities. the great shame and problem is the _ those opportunities. the great shame and problem is the huge _ those opportunities. the great shame and problem is the huge expense - those opportunities. the great shame and problem is the huge expense it i and problem is the huge expense it involves _ and problem is the huge expense it involves i— and problem is the huge expense it involves. i spent one day in court and a _ involves. i spent one day in court and a couple of days beforehand speaking — and a couple of days beforehand speaking with lawyers, it will be tens of— speaking with lawyers, it will be tens of thousands of pounds, our bill, that— tens of thousands of pounds, our bill, that is— tens of thousands of pounds, our bill, that is the market you are in with the — bill, that is the market you are in with the sort of stuff. it is dangerous. justice isn't available to most— dangerous. justice isn't available to most people. if openjustice is not available to most people, it is murky— not available to most people, it is murky territory. the case this very week, _ murky territory. the case this very week, constituents have no idea the mp is— week, constituents have no idea the mp is not— week, constituents have no idea the mp is not accessible to them, in a position— mp is not accessible to them, in a position to — mp is not accessible to them, in a position to help. still continue to engage _ position to help. still continue to engage with that very mp expecting something to be done. whether or not

they will— something to be done. whether or not they will be _ something to be done. whether or not they will be told at the time i cannot— they will be told at the time i cannot help them, who knows. very murky— cannot help them, who knows. very murky position and is a journalistic industry. _ murky position and is a journalistic industry, tablets, broadcasters, broadsheets, otherwise, we have to stick with— broadsheets, otherwise, we have to stick with it — broadsheets, otherwise, we have to stick with it. do broadsheets, otherwise, we have to stick with it— stick with it. do you agree libel laws are made _ stick with it. do you agree libel laws are made for— stick with it. do you agree libel laws are made for celebrities? | laws are made for celebrities? slightly strange situation. we have theissues slightly strange situation. we have the issues affecting the sun could also affect bloomberg. ironically could also affect coleen rooney's instagram account when she makes a journalistic allegation. we all have to deal with the same issues and we all end up being held to the same standards. i think libel law in the uk is in need of another work, the extent to which it can be used to bully people around the edges. we might want to not take the story on because of the potential risk. it is important places like bloomberg

thought to the supreme court on that one even though they lost because they at least managed to make a stand on that.— they at least managed to make a stand on that. that is it for today. thanks to john — stand on that. that is it for today. thanks to john nichol _ stand on that. that is it for today. thanks to john nichol fight, - stand on that. that is it for today. | thanks to john nichol fight, editor thanks tojohn nichol fight, editor of chief at limburg, pandora sykes, co—host of unreal podcast on bbc sounds. simon boyle, executive editor of showbiz at the sun. thanks for watching, goodbye. good afternoon. lots of dry and very usable weather but rather a lot of cloud particularly across the western side of england and wales, across northern ireland and western scotland, the weather front bringing patchy rain. warm are generally across england and wales compared to yesterday because we have more sunshine lasting well into the evening. you can see the split with the cloud and weather fronts pester northern and western areas, mild here. chilly, 6—7 in some of the valleys of england and wales, bright sunny

start. that is the lion's share of sunday the remix engine. more cloud again across wales and north—west england, possibly more than today. again the weather fronts footing with northern ireland, much of scotland, cloudy outbreaks of rain. settled into the beginning of next week, and cooler.

this is bbc news. the headlines at 5:00... celebrations for australia's labor party as it wins the country's general election. it means this man, anthony albanese, is set to form the next government though it's not yet clear whether it will be a majority or minority administration. it says a lot about our great country that the son of a single mum who is a disability pensioner, who grew up in public housing down the road, can stand before you tonight as australia's prime minister. we'll have the latest on what this means for australia — and for the world. also this hour... two people have been taken to hospital after a stand collapsed during a trooping the colour rehearsal in central london.