welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur. uruguay is a beacon of prosperity and democratic stability and sometimes turbulent south america. a decade ago under left—wing leadership, it was also a pioneer of progressive social policies. the

legalisation of cannabis and abortion rights. my guest today is president luis lacalle pou. he is a fan of unfettered free market economics. does that swim against the tide of public opinion in latin america? president luis lacalle pou. welcome to hardtalk. mr president, what is it like being as centre—right politician on the continent thatis politician on the continent that is quite clearly moving to the centre left? you are swimming against the political tide. a, swimming against the political tide. �* ., ., tide. a coalition of five parties _ tide. a coalition of five parties that _ tide. a coalition of five parties that supported | tide. a coalition of five - parties that supported this government. you have the for

the right, centre—right and centreleft. and i have the bonds between these five parties. this party to the citizens and if you read the programme, you will not be able to find centre right. the question _ to find centre right. the question is _ to find centre right. the question is important i to find centre right. the question is important because your relatively small country which depends upon strong alliances with its neighbours. not least in the trading block with argentina, paraguay and brazil. and if one looks at the wider region, you have a problem because the people you need to work with a very different politics from yours. my different politics from yours. my great—grandfather used to speak about this. stepping here and i took a picture and palmer always said, countries don't have permanent enemies or permanent friends. they have

permanent friends. they have permanent interests. i have to be chief of state for all of my country and my country has lots of opinions. if i do international politics thinking about ideology, i want go forward. i, perhaps it is getting into some trouble with their whole continent when you see some elections and i'm not a political analyst and perhaps when i go out of office, i can give much more opinions. argentina, fernandez who does not see economics and trade relationships in the same way that you do. in london, you desperately want to open up trade with uruguay, you want trade with uruguay, you want trade deals and you may want with post—brexit britain. the problem for you is you sit in

the middle of the trade block which has high protectionist tariffs can only operate with unanimity and you and uruguay are out of step with your neighbours in argentina. does the exact example _ neighbours in argentina. does the exact example of - neighbours in argentina. does the exact example of what - the exact example of what happens to us and just what you said, braziland happens to us and just what you said, brazil and argentina are not willing to open as fast as we want and as fast as we need. what he went to do about it? we, we do not accept the argument that we have to be altogether. stop by but that is the rules. the rules, you can interpret them in different ways. a few months ago, brazil and argentina took a measure that did not meet our approval and they took the measure. so,

we are trying to convince both argentina, braziland paraguay argentina, brazil and paraguay and argentina, braziland paraguay and paraguay has more than 33% of our efforts and so, they are not a partner in this journey. but the trouble is, you do not have partners for your journey and i'm looking at a quote from your colleague in argentina and he said quite plainly, if you don't like the south american trading block, you are welcome to leave. if you feel we are a burden to you, take another boat. ~ . , boat. we are in the boat. you're not _ boat. we are in the boat. you're not in _ boat. we are in the boat. you're not in the - boat. we are in the boat. you're not in the same i boat. we are in the boat. . you're not in the same boat. boat. we are in the boat. - you're not in the same boat. we have to move — you're not in the same boat. - have to move on. and we will move on and we are trying to deal with china, turkey, the invitation of the prime ministerfor invitation of the prime minister for us invitation of the prime ministerfor us was a invitation of the prime minister for us was a very good moment with great britain, uk

and we stepped forward. you are determined _ and we stepped forward. you are determined to _ and we stepped forward. you are determined to strike _ and we stepped forward. you are determined to strike a _ and we stepped forward. you are determined to strike a free - determined to strike a free trade deal with china because they feel that one third of all your experts by value right now goes to beijing. the problem is, argentina doesn't want the same deal with china that you want and same deal with china that you wantand again, same deal with china that you want and again, i'm going to quote an argentinian official thatis quote an argentinian official that is the minister of development who said, uruguay can make a bilateral agreement with china outside of the area or it can choose to be in the area, it cannot do both. we are t in: to area, it cannot do both. we are trying to move _ area, it cannot do both. we are trying to move on _ area, it cannot do both. we are trying to move on and - area, it cannot do both. we are trying to move on and we - area, it cannot do both. we are trying to move on and we are l trying to move on and we are just now talking with brazilian government and foreign minister in our country and we will step

forward for 37% of exports go to china and we are willing to extend and expand our markets. right now and in here. population three and a half million but also economically dependent on a superpower economy like china's population well over i economy like china's population well overi billion. it is an asymmetric relationship and it could be dangerous to you. let's take it this way. if the only option is selling those products for a good price to china or not selling them, what will you do? i would sell them. if we open more markets in the united states had more markets for us, united kingdom, the rest of europe, turkey, whatever, we would sell them. if i can choose, i won't put

all of my exports in one country stop by but that's increasingly what is happening. if you look at should beef and timber exports, china is becoming so important to you that you are becoming dependent on beijing. it’s that you are becoming dependent on bei'inu. v . that you are becoming dependent on bei'in. �*, ., ., on beijing. it's all about economics. _ on beijing. it's all about economics. not - on beijing. it's all about| economics. not politics. economics. _ economics. not politics. economics, yes. - economics. not politics. | economics, yes. politics, economics. not politics. - economics, yes. politics, no. how can you be sure that there's going to be consistent separation?— there's going to be consistent separation? because that's the wa the separation? because that's the way they have _ separation? because that's the way they have acted _ separation? because that's the way they have acted years - separation? because that's the way they have acted years ago | way they have acted years ago and will act the same way. looked around your region. the deals that some other latin american countries have done, costa rica, a project to modernise refineries that went horribly wrong with allegations of corruption, led to arrests and hydroelectric investments that the chinese to come for ecuador. billions of dollar projects. b, ecuador. billions of dollar projecte— ecuador. billions of dollar

ro'ects. �* , ' . projects. a slight difference and we don't _ projects. a slight difference and we don't have - projects. a slight difference and we don't have chinese. and we don't have chinese investments in our country. will you take them? we investments in our country. will you take them?- investments in our country. will you take them? we do not need infrastructure? _ will you take them? we do not need infrastructure? we - will you take them? we do not need infrastructure? we have i need infrastructure? we have our own investments and we do not need something separates china can offer. i'm sure if we go on 5g, they will want to compete in 5g. but our trade is exports. we trade our commodities mainly to china. fin commodities mainly to china. on this developing relationship between your country and the chinese. i between your country and the chinese. ., �* ., ., chinese. i don't want to call my country _ chinese. i don't want to call my country small _ chinese. i don't want to call my country small but - chinese. i don't want to call my country small but i - chinese. i don't want to call my country small but i will. my country small but i will accept it. it my country small but i will accept it— my country small but i will accept it. it comes down to this. accept it. it comes down to this- the — accept it. it comes down to this. the president, - accept it. it comes down to this. the president, when. accept it. it comes down to i this. the president, when you it with chinese officials you take by deepening the trade relationships and signing a free trade deal, do you, at any point mentioned to them or care about china's human rights record what they are doing to

the uighur muslim minority in the uighur muslim minority in the province. do you ever mention that?— the province. do you ever mention that? ., mention that? not in the same meetinu. mention that? not in the same meeting- but _ mention that? not in the same meeting. but we _ mention that? not in the same meeting. but we have - mention that? not in the same | meeting. but we have meetings about different things and what we are going to say and the un, for example. you have meetings and obviously, we don't align in some places with china. but there is geopolitics, very important geopolitics for a country like yours. you know that the way the world is working right now, the united states and china are becoming much more obvious and deeper geopolitical rivals. it seems to me that you are taking a strategic decision to deepen your relationship with china. you don't see the prospect of getting the same kind of preferential trade treatment of the united states and so, you're putting your ex, your

geopolitical eggs in the basket with china. i geopolitical eggs in the basket with china. , , geopolitical eggs in the basket with china-— with china. i put my eggs in the baskets _ with china. i put my eggs in the baskets they _ with china. i put my eggs in the baskets they can. - with china. i put my eggs in | the baskets they can. that's with china. i put my eggs in i the baskets they can. that's i have to do with my country to open my country. we have the government that is not looking south. that is a problem for us. we would love to be balanced with europe and the uk. the uk for us is an excellent partner stop ipo values to mount you? you are a democratically elected. now, your singular deepening your key strategic alliance of the country which, i'm sure you would not describe as a genuine democracy. of course not. one thing is commerce and the other is human rights, ideology or whatever. is human rights, ideology or whatever-— is human rights, ideology or whatever. ~ ., whatever. was your message to the united — whatever. was your message to the united states _ whatever. was your message to the united states right - whatever. was your message to the united states right now? i the united states right now? are they losing power and

influence across latin america because they will not offer you the same preferential trading arrangements, the same closeness and economic ties to china will? i closeness and economic ties to china will?— china will? i don't think they don't have — china will? i don't think they don't have a _ china will? i don't think they don't have a view— china will? i don't think they don't have a view on - china will? i don't think they don't have a view on latin i don't have a view on latin america. orthey don't have a view on latin america. or they think they have a view of latin america. we exports software, our first client is united states, our second is the uk. but the thing from the border in mexico, to the other areas, we have the same problems on the same needs. we are talking with us officials and will be meeting with one on thursday my country. and i think we are trying to open and be much more open—minded with them and we are not willing to go fast forward to the area, the free

trade agreement. the forward to the area, the free trade agreement.— forward to the area, the free trade agreement. the free trade agreement- _ trade agreement. the free trade agreement. i'm _ trade agreement. the free trade agreement. i'm not— trade agreement. the free trade agreement. i'm not in _ trade agreement. the free trade agreement. i'm not in love - trade agreement. the free trade agreement. i'm not in love with| agreement. i'm not in love with that. we want _ agreement. i'm not in love with that. we want to _ agreement. i'm not in love with that. we want to solar- agreement. i'm not in love with that. we want to solar projects | that. we want to solar projects in her intellectual creations. that is what we want and until now, this might administration doesn't look to our country. i feel that the tide is turning. we have a meeting of the americas in the 8th ofjune. they'll be a good moment to express herself and here we are. ., ., ., ., are. one more thought on that in geopolitics _ are. one more thought on that in geopolitics and _ are. one more thought on that in geopolitics and will - are. one more thought on that in geopolitics and will go - are. one more thought on that in geopolitics and will go to i in geopolitics and will go to your domestic agenda and will go to venezuela. the effort among you and your neighbouring countries in latin america, most of them, not all of them but most of them has been to isolate the venezuelan government in the hope that president maduro could be removed from office. well, it hasn't happened in the people of venezuela are still

suffering terrible economic and humanitarian conditions. are you not prepared to open up to venezuela was smacked in the isolation say, you know what? maduro is still there and we have to work with him. i don't think maduro _ have to work with him. i don't think maduro is _ have to work with him. i don't think maduro is willing - have to work with him. i don't think maduro is willing to - have to work with him. i don't think maduro is willing to call| think maduro is willing to call free elections are willing to have a democracy in venezuela. you see him as a dictator? flit you see him as a dictator? of course. he is. you see him as a dictator? (zii course. he is. and he you see him as a dictator? (ii course. he is. and he came here because ourformer course. he is. and he came here because our former government had strong relations with chavez and maduro and they had a fight and he went out and it wasn't logical to have them in our story. a few weeks ago, the biting administration got close to maduro because of things and we do not understand that move

that the united states is done in this stage and so, if we can really sit down at the table and hope that maduro and his regime have prepared to call to free elections with the opposition and the same terms that they have, will be happy to sit down. to that they have, will be happy to sit down.— that they have, will be happy to sit down. to see any sign of that today? — to sit down. to see any sign of that today? no, _ to sit down. to see any sign of that today? no, |_ to sit down. to see any sign of that today? no, i don't. - to sit down. to see any sign of that today? no, | don't. it's. that today? no, i don't. it's like i happening _ that today? no, i don't. it's like i happening inside - that today? no, i don't. it's like i happening inside your| like i happening inside your country in uruguay. you perhaps put it at the centre of your campaign for the presidency getting tough on crime and security issues.— getting tough on crime and security issues. you looked at the rising _ security issues. you looked at the rising number— security issues. you looked at the rising number of- security issues. you looked at l the rising number of homicides, gang crime, the insecurity in uruguay and said you're going to fix it. and you had a of different laws under this law offers and consideration. much tougher policing, tougher sentencing in your courts.

tighter drug trafficking laws. it doesn't seem to work. i look at the latest homicide figures for the first quarter of 2022 and they are going up. you should look— and they are going up. you should look at _ and they are going up. you should look at the - and they are going up. ym. should look at the percentage of other crimes. all the other crimes except homicide, went down. ~ ., , ., ., crimes except homicide, went down. ., ., , , down. with abdominal sites which i didn't _ down. with abdominal sites which i didn't want - down. with abdominal sites which i didn't want to - down. with abdominal sites which i didn't want to do i down. with abdominal sites l which i didn't want to do what i criticise the former governments of the gangs killing each other. because, ou killing each other. because, you have — killing each other. because, you have typed _ killing each other. because, you have typed a _ killing each other. because, you have typed a and - killing each other. because, you have typed a and type l killing each other. because, j you have typed a and type b killing each other. because, - you have typed a and type b and they do not want that. we're getting lots of pressure from the drug smuggling pressure. in the drug smuggling pressure. in the violence has risen and in this month, may, before mid may, we had more homicides than last may. we were getting down homicide and if you see a long story of five or six years ago, the results were ok until,

these last three months. the problem is, the measures that you've taken with tougher policing, tougher prison sentences, giving more power to steer intelligence agencies, your opponents in uruguay say you're revealing yourself as the authoritarian. did you're revealing yourself as the authoritarian.— you're revealing yourself as the authoritarian. did you not see the special— the authoritarian. did you not see the special report - the authoritarian. did you not see the special report from i the authoritarian. did you not i see the special report from the un that concluded some of the measures you wanted to take were not compliant with international human rights standards and specifically was worried about the new powers given to the police and the way in which you were putting new limits on uruguay and people's right of assembly? ila. that is right of assembly? no. that is with the right of assembly? iii. that is with the reporter said. right of assembly? no. that is with the reporter said. that i right of assembly? no. that is with the reporter said. that is | with the reporter said. that is not true- _ with the reporter said. that is not true. that _ with the reporter said. that is not true. that is _ with the reporter said. that is not true. that is not - with the reporter said. that is not true. that is not an - not true. that is not an argument to say that people cannot go to international assembly. the past is that you cannot but a street. you can go

on strike into assemblies, but you cannot plug a street style bites he cannot have a mass protest because of course, that plus the street. only if you asked the mayor, last week, they blocked five blocks and i'm telling you about illegal blockades or, you cannot go into an industry and not let the other workers in.- into an industry and not let the other workers in. you also launched _ the other workers in. you also launched an — the other workers in. you also launched an attack _ the other workers in. you also launched an attack on - the other workers in. you also launched an attack on trade i launched an attack on trade unions. ~ , ., ., . launched an attack on trade - unions._ because unions. why in attack? because ou've unions. why in attack? because you've curbed — unions. why in attack? because you've curbed the _ unions. why in attack? because you've curbed the powers - unions. why in attack? because you've curbed the powers and i you've curbed the powers and the rights the trade unions have inside workplaces in uruguay. have inside workplaces in uruguay-— have inside workplaces in uru~ua. ., uruguay. perhaps what we did, i believe it is _ uruguay. perhaps what we did, i believe it isjustice. _ uruguay. perhaps what we did, i believe it isjustice. yes. - uruguay. perhaps what we did, i believe it isjustice. yes. in - believe it isjustice. yes. in between people that did not want to work in people in the same place that wanted to work. people can go on strike and

people can give their opinion, but the other people were not able to come into the job and for me, that'sjustice. ii able to come into the “ob and for me, that's justice._ for me, that's 'ustice. if you don't for me, that's 'ustice. if you dont mind. _ for me, that'sjustice. if you don't mind, independent i for me, that'sjustice. if you . don't mind, independent civil society organisations, you will know the much better than me. the access of information public in your country. annual report says that there is a backsliding of freedom of expression in this country with an increase in violations of the right to freedom of expression under your presidency. expression under your presidency-— expression under your presidency. expression under your residen . ., , ., presidency. that is not true. why are _ presidency. that is not true. why are people _ presidency. that is not true. why are people saying - presidency. that is not true. | why are people saying these things? of the lying about you? some, maybe. we have a different view. but you have to prove those things. we are one of the strongest democracies in the world. it’s of the strongest democracies in the world. �* , ., of the strongest democracies in the world-— the world. it's not 'ust the locals, the world. it's not 'ust the locals. its h

the world. it's not 'ust the locals, it's also h the world. it's not 'ust the locals, it's also an_ locals, it's also an independent international analysts, reporters the borders, a highly respected institution. i borders, a highly respected institution.— institution. i do not respect that institution. _ institution. i do not respect that institution. i— institution. i do not respect that institution. i heard - institution. i do not respect| that institution. i heard they have demoted _ that institution. i heard they have demoted you _ that institution. i heard they have demoted you from - that institution. i heard they have demoted you from 18th place to a0 fourth place as freedom index. place to 40 fourth place as freedom index.— place to 40 fourth place as freedom index. free reporters, criticise that _ freedom index. free reporters, criticise that exact _ freedom index. free reporters, criticise that exact informer. i criticise that exact informer. i don't respect that. that is strictly a lie.— i don't respect that. that is strictly a lie. before we end, ou strictly a lie. before we end, you inherited _ strictly a lie. before we end, you inherited something - strictly a lie. before we end, | you inherited something from your predecessor. and he took decisions with some supplies you have not reversed. one was on the legalisation of cannabis. uruguay took the lead across the world and the complete legalisation of the entire supply chain for cannabis, production through to sale. in the state is actually involved in the sale of

cannabis. you came to power as a right—wing politician you declared yourself back in 2014 saying, i am against the state producing and selling of drugs and earning money like this and yet, you have done nothing to stop it. why? yet, you have done nothing to stop it- why?— stop it. why? november, the first law that _ stop it. why? november, the first law that tried _ stop it. why? november, the first law that tried to - stop it. why? november, the first law that tried to pass - stop it. why? november, the first law that tried to pass in l first law that tried to pass in our country and i think latin america for legal use of marijuana was myself. i america for legal use of marijuana was myself. mari'uana was myself. i know that marijuana was myself. i know that but a _ marijuana was myself. i know that but a specific— marijuana was myself. i know that but a specific point, - marijuana was myself. i know that but a specific point, but. that but a specific point, but that but a specific point, but that time, your specifically saying that there should be a legalisation of the grow in limited amounts of marijuana. i'm mari'uana. no, not limited. i'm 'ust marijuana. no, not limited. i'm just talking _ marijuana. no, not limited. i'm just talking about _ marijuana. no, not limited. i'm just talking about the _ marijuana. no, not limited. i'm just talking about the entire - just talking about the entire supply chain and the state profiting from marijuana and use it as the president of the state which does profit from marijuana sales and you tell me that you're trying to conquer drug crime in your country and the drugs related violence is a

big problem. you see a connection there? i big problem. you see a connection there? i see a connection _ connection there? i see a connection and _ connection there? i see a connection and i - connection there? i see a connection and i will- connection there? i see a i connection and i will explain to you. part of this law, i've who it because if i think that i have to be able to have marijuana legally and not illegally, i voted that and. second, i think that the state has to be an implementation and selling drugs, we're putting money because we have to put some money monthly, yearly because the production is not sustainable.— sustainable. are you going to chan . e sustainable. are you going to change the — sustainable. are you going to change the law? _ sustainable. are you going to change the law? i— sustainable. are you going to change the law? i will- sustainable. are you going toj change the law? i will change some things. _ change the law? i will change some things. i— change the law? i will change some things. i don't - change the law? i will change some things. i don't believe i change the law? i will change| some things. i don't believe in the states growing and selling marijuana. but i believe people that we have, that they can produce their own and they can have their own circles

marijuana and not in the states. a , . marijuana and not in the states. , . , ., , states. basic question this. many around _ states. basic question this. many around the _ states. basic question this. many around the un - states. basic question this. many around the un which | states. basic question this. i many around the un which say that uruguay has betrayed the international fight against illegal drugs by going so far down the track notjust legalising but also in the state involved in selling marijuana. do you respect that they made a mistake which ally do not vote in that part of the law stop i did uruguay make a mistake? i law stop i did uruguay make a mistake? ., , mistake? i will answer. i will to mistake? i will answer. i will go there- — mistake? i will answer. i will go there- we _ mistake? i will answer. i will go there. we made - mistake? i will answer. i will go there. we made a - mistake? i will answer. i will i go there. we made a mistake. that's why i didn't vote for it at that time. now, we have the system going and so, we can change it but one day, we can change it but one day, we can change it but one day, we can change it at a time. i don't agree, i read today in the morning that we betrayed the system. we have cooperation with other countries we are working together, we exchange

information in the drug smuggling is an international crime and we work with different agencies and no, we have four longerfor the have four longer for the international policies. uruguay ends do not — international policies. uruguay ends do not allow _ international policies. uruguay ends do not allow excesses i international policies. uruguay ends do not allow excesses in | ends do not allow excesses in their politicians. 0ur ends do not allow excesses in their politicians. our people are very hard in first full electorally when it comes to criticising those in power. you cannot run for a second time the constitution, but do you believe you found the right balance between your right wing politics when uruguay actually wants? , ., ~ politics when uruguay actually wants? , .,~ , wants? every day i wake up, it's not easy. _ wants? every day i wake up, it's not easy. but _ wants? every day i wake up, it's not easy. but i _ wants? every day i wake up, it's not easy. but i try - wants? every day i wake up, it's not easy. but i try to - wants? every day i wake up, it's not easy. but i try to do| it's not easy. but i try to do it. , , ., . ., ., it. president luis lacalle pou. thank you _ it. president luis lacalle pou. thank you very _ it. president luis lacalle pou. thank you very much - it. president luis lacalle pou. thank you very much for - it. president luis lacalle pou. | thank you very much for being on hardtalk.— on hardtalk. thank you, a pleasure- _

hello there. we'll be developing a north—south split across the country into friday but that's because we've got higher pressure building in across southern areas. so, that will bring in quite a long sunshine, far more sunshine than we had on thursday but we maintain the windy, blustery theme across the north with further showers. that's because closer to this area of low pressure. but this area of high pressure will continue to push its way northwards dominating the weather scene across much of the midlands, southwards and in towards wales. there will be some sunshine for northern ireland, southern scotland too. it will be windier times could see a few light showers.

but most of the showers will be across the north and west of scotland, some will be quite heavy and they will be blustery as the winds will be quite a feature here once again. the winds will be lighter further south with more sunshine, could see 21 degrees again. otherwise, it's the low to mid teens across the north. through friday night, the showers continue for a while across scotland. the winds begin to back more northerly as we head through the night. that will feed in a few more showers across the far north of scotland but much of the country will be dry. it will be a cooler air mass, temperatures in the single digits for most places. so, it's a coolerfeel into the weekend, it will be turning cooler still thanks to these northerly winds. and by sunday, we could even see a few showers around with limited spells of sunshine. saturday probably looking like the brightest day of the weekend. but even then, there will be quite a bit of cloud being pushed down on this northerly wind across central,

northern and eastern areas. i think the best of the sunshine, southwest england and wales, northern ireland, it's here where we'll see the best temperatures, perhaps 20 degrees in cardiff. otherwise, it's cooler across more northern and eastern areas where we will have more cloud. as we move into sunday you could see the blue hue trickling further southwards across the country, will be turning cooler as our area of high pressure begins to drift in towards iceland. so, northerly winds, quite a lot of cloud around on sunday, that wind will be quite stiff across northern and eastern areas and the cloud thick enough for some scattered showers. so, sunshine will be pretty limited. probably the best will be at the southwest we could see 16 or 17 degrees. distinctly chilly for this time of year across more northern and eastern areas where we hold onto the cloud, as well. into next week, i think we will have a very weak area of low pressure nearby. that will bring further sunshine but also the risk of some showers, some of which will be on the heavy side.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm arunoday mukharji. the headlines: slow to react or caution in a siege situation? police criticised over the texas school mass shooting. give us more heavy weapons — ukraine's plea to the west as russian attacks intensify on more than 40 towns in the donbas region. the us insists china remains a bigger challenge to the world order than russia. the actor kevin spacey is facing charges on five counts of sexual assault against three men. the allegations date back to when he was in the uk.