this is bbc news, the headlines... anger at the treatment of fans at the champions league final in paris. the match was delayed and some supporters claim they were tear gassed and prevented from entering the ground. real madrid won the match after a 1—0 victory over liverpool. the spanish football side take the title for a record 14th time. france and germany urge president putin to engage in peace talks as russia continues its offensive in the donbas. the russian ambassador to the uk tells the bbc that moscow will not use tactical nuclear weapons in the battle for ukraine. president biden renews his appeal for tighter gun control following the texas

elementary school shooting, as the parents prepare to bury their children. now on bbc news, political thinking with nick robinson. hello, and welcome to political thinking, a conversation with, rather than an interrogation of someone who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. my guest this week has threatened to bring the country to a standstill, which has made him a target of those who accuse union militants of being hell—bent on suicidal madness. others, though, say that he is an example for working people of how they can get a decent deal at a time when their standard of living is constantly being squeezed.

whatever your view is, mick lynch, the general secretary of the rmt, now has the backing of his members for potentially a very major confrontation, notjust with the rail companies but with governments of all political persuasion, with the tories in westminster, the snp in scotland, and also with the labour mayor of london as well. lynch has said all he wants from life is a bit of socialism. mick lynch, general secretary of the rmt, welcome to political thinking. do you enjoy weeks like this? i mean, you're in the limelight, the union is in the limelight, you've got the backing of your members. well, it's more exciting than dealing with some paperwork, i suppose. so there's a lot of appearances like this, it's a lot of stress but if you didn't want to do that, if you didn't want to be involved, you should be doing anotherjob. so it's stimulating, i would say. but stimulation isn't always good. and it certainly makes you think. and you prepared for quite a long time for this

potential confrontation. we have to say potential because it might not end in strikes. absolutely, we've been talking to the employers for a long, long time, since covid started. they brought out their reform package. they had to get stuff in place for covid, to change the services. and this is a follow on from covid, one way or the other, about the changes that happened on the railways. so we've got to deal with it. and i hope we don't go on strike but we have to have that in our top pocket, is my opinion. and you did say that you could bring the country to a standstill. could you? would you? well, there's been a bit of hyperbole. people have been saying that it is the biggest strike since 1926. it's not. it's a straightforward traditional trade union dispute about pay, jobs and conditions. it's not going to be the general strike. i don't think the country will come to a standstill. it will be an inconvenience. i don't indulge in hype but it's a very serious dispute and a lot of our people are very motivated to get behind it, which has been proven in the ballot results. how inconvenient? there was talk when you did an interview with the mirror recently of empty shelves and fuel shortages and blackouts. well, they talk about it. i didn't put those words up.

they say can you discount this or would you deny it? it could, if it escalates, it could get very serious. the difference between this dispute and some that others are familiar with where you might have a train operator that's got a particular group of people in a conflict or a dispute is that this involves network rail�*s infrastructure. network rail�*s infrastructure — all the signallers, the electrical controllers and all the maintenance staff from the top of scotland down to the bottom of cornwall and all points in between. and if they're involved in action, that will stop the railway to a large extent. there will be managers working, no doubt, trying to get it going, which is part of the to and fro. but we will see. it is a national dispute and we haven't done that since privatisation on this level. and as you survey the scene, as a trade unionist for many years, do you think we're going to see many more disputes? because after all, inflation at this sort of level erodes people's incomes, working people who are represented by unions are going to want to fight to make sure they don't see their pay eroded. are we going to see a lot of this? well, i'd like to say i hope so.

i hope that's not too controversial. i use that term, working class because it's gone out of fashion. so many people in my position, including the tuc and the labour party don't like using it. but there is a class. i mean, it's undeniable in this country, or in any society. there are people at this moment who are suffering, and they are not just suffering because they're unemployed and on benefits and have got difficulties, whether they are disabled or what have you. there is a working poor in this country, and the chief source of their problems is outsourcing, i think. subcontracting vulnerable work and work that is in jeopardy. so there are loads of people in this country who are working full—time, and maybe more than full—time, who can't get a decent set of terms and conditions, can't get a pension, cant get holiday pay, are working on gig economies orforms of it, and i think that's where labour has lost some of its ground, actually. lost some of its ground, actually, because they're not reaching out to those people. if you're living in a small town that used to be industrial, used to be heavily unionised, and all the work you can get might be in a care home working

for a second or third party subcontractor, you've got a very, very vulnerable life. the rates are really low and the conditions are really low, and they feel insecure. there's this awful cliche, isn't there, whenever there is an election — people of your and my age, it comes out in every newspaper, in the telly and on the radio every time. "we're heading for a winter of discontent." yeah. well, i know we're not heading for winter, we're heading for summer. but do you think, with inflation at this level, it's the sort of thing we should prepare for? well, the union movement has to respond, and so does the labour party and the labour movement as it used to be called. we have to respond because we can't allow people to just get poorer, and that's what is actually happening. and i view that — some people might say this is a marxist analysis, it's not, it's a simple analysis — working people are getting poorer because their wages aren't keeping up with inflation. they can't find the labour party any more. some of them can't even find the trade union movement any more. they actually can't find a trade union, which is a big problem. i want to come to your views about labour, about the trade unions generally in a second, but i mentioned the winter of discontent.

it takes you back. that was your early days as a worker, your early days as a trade unionist. back in, what, the late �*70s? 1979 particularly. so, i left school in 1978 and i started in a place where there were six apprentices... eight apprentices. and six of them came from my school. and my school was about two miles away from that factory. and we all did craft apprenticeships and we all were looking forward to a life as craftsmen, as we were then. it was all men, apart from the canteen ladies. and that was wiped away later, in the �*80s, by thatcherism. because engineering disappeared. people never believed me that there was engineering in london. it was full of engineering. park royal, near where i lived, was the biggest engineering establishment in western europe. that is in north—west london. yeah. your family were irish catholics. yeah. your dad worked in a factory as you did. yeah, my dad was a proper paddy — as i'm not ashamed of saying. he went down the pub a lot, he was a labourer working on building sites with the original john murphy, the big contractor. he went in factories because it was easier.

he went in the post office because being a shop steward left him a bit vulnerable. when he joined the post office, he came out of his probation and he went on strike for seven weeks. that was tom jackson, if you remember him, with the big handlebar moustache. i certainly do. trade union leader of old. and they lost the dispute. they didn't get what they wanted. so that was my life... so that was my life, that is what we were used to. and what are your memories of that? did you learn from that, stand up for your rights, even if you lose? did you look at that and think, "oh, they got that horribly wrong"? yeah, i mean, my family is from a republican tradition. they weren't active republicans but it's the milieu, i think the posh people call it. so our life was being roman catholic. it wasn't a lifestyle choice like it is for many people now. "i want to get my kid in that school." being roman catholic was an everyday permanent experience. mass every sunday, holy days of obligation, confession saturday night, taking communion sunday morning, stations of the cross, the whole bit. where i lived, it was catholic.

in paddington kilburn, where we had grown up, i thought everyone was a catholic. all the caribbean people near me were catholic. there were italian people, there were polish people. we didn't have very many english people, i've got to say. and you can't believe that with my accent. when i went to school, we had a boy in my class who was an english catholic and we used to call him "the english boy". is that right? in central london. and what about trade unionism? so, you were an electrician working in a factory in your teens, your late teens. 16. do you go straight into a union? did you have a sense that, actually, yourfuture might be running a union, or at least being a shop steward on the way to that? well, when i was a kid, trade union general secretaries vic feather and jackjones and all those people, these were big people. these were national figures, so i never thought i'd be like that. you had to be in a union. when ijoined, a fellow came up to me and said, "you're the apprentice electrician." the other five or six, whatever they were, were mechanical fitters. you had tojoin the union.

we made printing presses and we had a printing establishment, we had all the print unions, and when we went to install presses, they would be closed shop printing houses. so if i went to fleet street to put some machinery in, your card would be inspected. and i would expect it to be inspected, i wanted it to be inspected, because i didn't want a non—union person coming into that setup. all of that was made impossible by margaret thatcher. the laws were changed to do away with the closed shop, the obligation to be the member of a union. are you nostalgic for the pre—thatcher days? i'm nostalgic for the power that we had, and what i more that we had, and more nostalgic for the control and the values that we had. people talk about the winter of discontent and the excesses of the trade union movement as it's styled and as it was caricatured by the press, which was extremely hostile. i'm nostalgic for the balance that we were creating. i think society was becoming rebalanced in the �*70s.

thatcher not only crushed the trade unions, she brought in the big bang. she got rid of paternalism in companies. when you worked at a factory, notjust in bournville, in cadburys, but nestles as we used to call it in west london where i used to work, any of the brewers, any of the factories had football fields, social clubs, some of them had housing. my first house i bought was a railway house, provided by british rail and provided by the great western railway. all of that has gone. people now disregard the workforce as something that's under their shoe in some ways. not if you're an office worker, but if you're doing refuse collection, if you're doing care services, if you're doing manufacturing, in many ways you are an inconvenience and we're waiting to automate you out. that's the problem. before we go back to sort of the disputes you're currently in, you paid a very heavy price for being a trade unionist. yeah. a phrase that will mean a great deal to trade unionists listening and watching but might not mean a lot to other people —

you were blacklisted. what happened ? so, i came out of engineering because it was closing down and went into construction, which was transferable skills, good thing. and i remained a union activist and there was a lot going on. our union was collaborating, the electricians union as you remember, with murdoch and all that, not to be too boring, but we formed another union, which was probably a big mistake, to be loyal to the tuc and loyal to our values. and that made me a big target in london, in the construction industry. so the employers, going back to 1919 and the economic league, used to keep a blacklist. so, in other words, a blacklist is a whole list of workers who are, in inverted commas, trouble. and the word is basically going out to all the employers, don't give them a job, don't take them on. so i was put on that and i couldn't get work. it was obvious to me. so you move to job to job as a contract electrician, it's part of the deal. i couldn't get work, and so i said to my wife, "i'm going to have to change direction here." "i know it's because of a blacklist". you can't prove it. and when you tell people there's a blacklist, they think you are paranoid.

but you didn't know. or sense? everyone knew. it's only the activists that can't get work. so, if you're the shop steward on a big site where you've got some control and you're getting good deals, that you won't get work the next time, you hope that maybe if you take a month out they'll forget and the heat will go off, "i'll get a job." but it never did? and a group of people i know, and they tend to be all the people i know, didn't get work. this was only confirmed in the sense of the blacklist published in 2009. yes, i got a letterfrom the information commissioners office saying i was basically only blacklist. saying i was basically only blacklist-— saying i was basically only blacklist. ., , , blacklist. there was a blacklist u-rou blacklist. there was a blacklist grow) formed- _ blacklist. there was a blacklist group formed. we _ blacklist. there was a blacklist group formed. we entered - blacklist. there was a blacklist group formed. we entered at l blacklist. there was a blacklist i group formed. we entered at the court, all of these big companies had to cough up a load of money. did ou had to cough up a load of money. did you get so many? i— had to cough up a load of money. did you get so many? i got _ had to cough up a load of money. did you get so many? i got £35,000 - had to cough up a load of money. did you get so many? i got £35,000 of l you get so many? i got £35,000 of compensation, — you get so many? i got £35,000 of compensation, the _ you get so many? i got £35,000 of compensation, the cheque - you get so many? i got £35,000 of compensation, the cheque is - you get so many? i got £35,000 of compensation, the cheque is on - you get so many? i got £35,000 of| compensation, the cheque is on my wall in my office.—

wall in my office. quite a lot of mone , wall in my office. quite a lot of money. 35 _ wall in my office. quite a lot of money, 35 grand. _ wall in my office. quite a lot of money, 35 grand. did - wall in my office. quite a lot of money, 35 grand. did you - wall in my office. quite a lot of| money, 35 grand. did you treat ourself money, 35 grand. did you treat yourself to _ money, 35 grand. did you treat yourself to something - money, 35 grand. did you treat i yourself to something something money, 35 grand. did you treat - yourself to something something on my house, no, not very much. i did not compensate for the wages lost. and many people got a very low sums compared to what i got. you will know that your union in particular, it will happen more and more the more you're into a dispute is portrayed as militant. as extreme. assertive. . . portrayed as militant. as extreme. assertive. . , ., assertive. that is what you described _ assertive. that is what you described has _ assertive. that is what you described has instead. - assertive. that is what you described has instead. i'm| assertive. that is what you - described has instead. i'm going to put it to you that there is a little secret going on here that people might have cottoned on to listening to your interview. when we have spoken to trade unionists, people in the labour party, they say revenge is nothing like the west lingers —— mick lynch is nothing like the rest of left—wingers. i mick lynch is nothing like the rest of left-wingers— of left-wingers. i have a set of principles _ of left-wingers. i have a set of principles based _ of left-wingers. i have a set of principles based on _ of left-wingers. i have a set of principles based on traditional| principles based on traditional labour values.— principles based on traditional labour values. you do not take

orders because _ labour values. you do not take orders because there _ labour values. you do not take orders because there are - labour values. you do not take i orders because there are factions labour values. you do not take - orders because there are factions in your union, some day.— your union, some day. some take orders from _ your union, some day. some take orders from bodies _ your union, some day. some take orders from bodies outside - your union, some day. some take orders from bodies outside my . your union, some day. some take - orders from bodies outside my union. i'm not interested in that and i tell them very directly... pare i'm not interested in that and i tell them very directly... are you embarrassed _ tell them very directly... are you embarrassed by _ tell them very directly... are you embarrassed by some _ tell them very directly... are you embarrassed by some of- tell them very directly... are you embarrassed by some of the - tell them very directly... are you i embarrassed by some of the things that your colleagues in the rmt stand for questioning that is up to them what they stand for. then;r stand for questioning that is up to them what they stand for. they get elected the same _ them what they stand for. they get elected the same idea _ them what they stand for. they get elected the same idea and - them what they stand for. they get elected the same idea and people i elected the same idea and people have a mandate. when their it table with me, dealing with trade union matters of the deal with it as trade unionists, some of them have things quoted from years ago as well and some move on from their previous beliefs. . , ., ., ., beliefs. had they moved on from supporting _ beliefs. had they moved on from supporting vladimir _ beliefs. had they moved on from supporting vladimir putin? - beliefs. had they moved on from supporting vladimir putin? you | beliefs. had they moved on from - supporting vladimir putin? you know the daily mail has made a great deal in recent days about the fact eddie dempsey, one of your senior assistant general secretary, izzy put an apologist who visited the donbas region and posed for the picture with a pro—russian separatist commander —— is a putin apologist. separatist commander -- is a putin a olouist. separatist commander -- is a putin aolouist. , ,, , ., , separatist commander -- is a putin aolouist. , ., apologist. eddie dempsey does not su ort apologist. eddie dempsey does not support putin. _ apologist. eddie dempsey does not support putin, does _ apologist. eddie dempsey does not support putin, does not _ apologist. eddie dempsey does not support putin, does not support - apologist. eddie dempsey does not| support putin, does not support the russian invasion and aggression against ukraine. we support ukraine's self—determination and we support ukrainian trade unions and

ukrainian people. but support ukrainian trade unions and ukrainian people.— support ukrainian trade unions and ukrainian people. but dempsey signed a sto the ukrainian people. but dempsey signed a stop they war _ ukrainian people. but dempsey signed a stop they war coalition _ ukrainian people. but dempsey signed a stop they war coalition statement i a stop they war coalition statement only a week or so ago, i think. stop the were only a week or so ago, i think. stop they were coalition _ only a week or so ago, i think. strip. they were coalition started different, i think. they were coalition started different, ithink.— they were coalition started different, ithink. nato's quotes, disdain for— different, ithink. nato's quotes, disdain for russian _ different, ithink. nato's quotes, disdain for russian concerns. - different, i think. nato's quotes, i disdain for russian concerns. there is a sli . ht disdain for russian concerns. there is a slight stain. _ disdain for russian concerns. there is a slight stain. there _ disdain for russian concerns. there is a slight stain. there are - disdain for russian concerns. there is a slight stain. there are two - is a slight stain. there are two sides anywhere in some of the stuff happening in ukraine has not been very pleasant. under a different regime than zelensky, there was a burning down of the trade union law and many people were killed. some people have been put in prison in ukraine because of their beliefs. that does not counterbalance anything that putin has done, and put in's repression is far more severe than anyone that he is opposing at the minute. we are totally opposed to the invasion. the resident totally opposed to the invasion. the president of the union declared ukraine a failed state held to ransom by neo—nazis. ukraine a failed state held to ransom by neo-nazis.- ukraine a failed state held to ransom by neo-nazis. there are a lot of neo-nazis — ransom by neo-nazis. there are a lot of neo-nazis in _ ransom by neo-nazis. there are a lot of neo-nazis in ukraine, _ ransom by neo-nazis. there are a lot of neo-nazis in ukraine, and - ransom by neo-nazis. there are a lot of neo-nazis in ukraine, and it - of neo—nazis in ukraine, and it can't be avoided. in my union, speak for the union officially as general secretary, eddie does as well and i don't do it, he supports union's

position, which is to oppose putting's aggression and invasion of ukraine. —— putin. putting's aggression and invasion of ukraine. -- putin.— ukraine. -- putin. what do you say to --eole ukraine. -- putin. what do you say to people who _ ukraine. -- putin. what do you say to people who will— ukraine. -- putin. what do you say to people who will say, _ ukraine. -- putin. what do you say to people who will say, look, - to people who will say, look, teatime like this, however good the argument you make, you just can't risk adding to the woes of ordinary working people who depend on the trade, chip, for example and earn their living? i trade, chip, for example and earn their living?— their living? i recognise that completely- _ their living? i recognise that completely- l _ their living? i recognise that completely. i live _ their living? i recognise that completely. i live in - their living? i recognise that completely. i live in my - their living? i recognise that - completely. i live in my community. people use a train, my family as if they train, my son works on the railway. i recognise all that inconvenience and i do not want it to happen. i note... i do inconvenience and i do not want it to happen. i note...— to happen. i note... i do believe that. do to happen. i note... i do believe that- do they — to happen. i note... i do believe that. do they shout _ to happen. i note... i do believe that. do they shout at _ to happen. i note... i do believe that. do they shout at you - to happen. i note... i do believe that. do they shout at you overl that. do they shout at you over these? ., , , . . that. do they shout at you over these? ., , , ., ., ., ~ these? people stare at me and think, is not not the — these? people stare at me and think, is not not the luck _ these? people stare at me and think, is not not the luck in _ these? people stare at me and think, is not not the luck in bringing - these? people stare at me and think, is not not the luck in bringing the - is not not the luck in bringing the country to its knees, the paper says? i don't want members to be on strike or bring the country to its

knees i want to have a contented worklife balance and get on with living their lives as happily as contentedly as they can. but the timing is because the employers and the government have a plan to slash thousands ofjobs. they do not want to give us a pay rise, some of our members into the third year of that. and inflation is rampant, as we all know. i don't want to bang on about that, but we all know that. the conditions of that we enjoy and have negotiated are under threat. find negotiated are under threat. and et, negotiated are under threat. and yet. people _ negotiated are under threat. and yet. people say. _ negotiated are under threat. and yet, people say, you're not bad paid, a lot of your people. {line yet, people say, you're not bad paid, a lot of your people. one of the reasons _ paid, a lot of your people. one of the reasons for _ paid, a lot of your people. one of the reasons for that _ paid, a lot of your people. one of the reasons for that is _ paid, a lot of your people. one of the reasons for that is because i the reasons for that is because everybody else is lost. we have never lost our ability to bargain, going back to privatise —— before privatisation we have not lost a pet salary scheme terms and conditions. so where we were, we have done well in some negotiations, tube, rail, and bass, we have maintained their position, is relatively, the rest of the working class has been relegated

to league i, a bit where man united are heading at the moment. to league 1, a bit where man united are heading at the moment. enough of that, thank are heading at the moment. enough of that. thank you! _ are heading at the moment. enough of that, thank you! so _ are heading at the moment. enough of that, thank you! so that _ are heading at the moment. enough of that, thank you! so that his _ are heading at the moment. enough of that, thank you! so that his eddie - that, thank you! so that his eddie relativities. _ that, thank you! so that his eddie relativities. if— that, thank you! so that his eddie relativities. if you _ that, thank you! so that his eddie relativities. if you look _ that, thank you! so that his eddie relativities. if you look at - that, thank you! so that his eddie relativities. if you look at the - relativities. if you look at the relativities, a tuba driver who used to be on the same wages as a bus driver, the bus driver, traditionally before the 60s was on more money often than a tube driver. a tube driver because of rmt membership, unions that are prepared to campaign and go to the wall on these issues, is now only much higher wage. these issues, is now only much higherwage. but these issues, is now only much higher wage. but relatively, against inflation, their wages may not be much different. but bus drivers have been subcontracted and relegated right down the league table for wages. right down the league table for wa . es. . . , right down the league table for wa . es. , , , , wages. this is very interesting, make, because _ wages. this is very interesting, make, because what _ wages. this is very interesting, make, because what i - wages. this is very interesting, make, because what i think- wages. this is very interesting, i make, because what i think you're seeing is farfor make, because what i think you're seeing is far for apologising for this, the strikes and disruption in song, this is something you're proud of, that you can say to your members, you have got higher wages, better terms and conditions, a better terms and conditions, a better pension, than a lot of other people, precisely because i come on your behalf, and willing to pick a fight. your behalf, and willing to pick a fiiht. ., .., your behalf, and willing to pick a fiiht. ., . .,, .

fight. you can choose to be in which ou even fight. you can choose to be in which you even in — fight. you can choose to be in which you even in the _ fight. you can choose to be in which you even in the railway, _ fight. you can choose to be in which you even in the railway, or- fight. you can choose to be in which you even in the railway, or not - fight. you can choose to be in which you even in the railway, or not be i you even in the railway, or not be any union, but if i said, do you want to be in this limp, passive union that has omitted to the trends of modern economic and working life, or do you want to be in this assertive, powerful, high—profile union, which are you going to choose? ., �* ., ., ., . choose? you're not going to choose the limp one. _ choose? you're not going to choose the limp one, are _ choose? you're not going to choose the limp one, are you? _ choose? you're not going to choose the limp one, are you? the - choose? you're not going to choose the limp one, are you? the one - choose? you're not going to choose the limp one, are you? the one on | the limp one, are you? the one on its way out and has no profile in this country. such as? i its way out and has no profile in this country. such as?— this country. such as? i will not name one- _ this country. such as? i will not name one. but _ this country. such as? i will not name one. but you _ this country. such as? i will not name one. but you have - this country. such as? i will not name one. but you have one i this country. such as? i will not name one. but you have one in| this country. such as? i will not - name one. but you have one in mind! i would name one. but you have one in mind! i would not — name one. but you have one in mind! i would not dare _ name one. but you have one in mind! i would not dare say _ name one. but you have one in mind! i would not dare say that. _ name one. but you have one in mind! i would not dare say that. but - i would not dare say that. but you're going to choose to goad with the powerful and assertive union. that is where the union movement has to go. and i tell the tuc, frances o'grady and whoever comes in her place, you have to get out of your offices and into the streets and into the working class towns this country and build it up again as if we were victorians.— we were victorians. what is interesting _ we were victorians. what is interesting now _ we were victorians. what is interesting now and - we were victorians. what is interesting now and at - we were victorians. what is interesting now and at the i we were victorians. what is - interesting now and at the beginning of this interview, you criticise the tuc, you're basically criticised labour party, not affiliated as a union to the labour party. if it

comes to strikes this year, will they back you? i comes to strikes this year, will they back you?— comes to strikes this year, will the back ou? ., �* ~ ., ., �* they back you? i don't know. i don't think the labour _ they back you? i don't know. i don't think the labour party _ they back you? i don't know. i don't think the labour party will - they back you? i don't know. i don't think the labour party will back - they back you? i don't know. i don't think the labour party will back us. | think the labour party will back us. i don't think keir starmer or with street england, the new bleed, will go on the telly and say these workers deserve a pay rise and it will be like this —— the new breed. they will say trite words are like there has to be settlement, we encourage both parties to get ready table. what about the the deputy, angela rayner? i table. what about the the deputy, angela rayner?— table. what about the the deputy, angela rayner?_ you angela rayner? i like angela. you 'ust to angela rayner? i like angela. you just to give _ angela rayner? i like angela. you just to give her — angela rayner? i like angela. you just to give her money. _ angela rayner? i like angela. you just to give her money. we - angela rayner? i like angela. you just to give her money. we do - angela rayner? i like angela. you just to give her money. we do notj just to give her money. we do not give any politician many, we give campaign money, we give people that identify with what we identify with, support physical material and financial support —— support, physical material and financial support. she is an ally. i think some of the stuff she believes and personally is the kind of stuff i believe in. she has a very similar background. it is at that kind of background. it is at that kind of background of coming from a council estate and wanting to lift the whole council estate. that is why i don't

like that playwright language about equality of opportunity. i will pick individuals out and select them to do well but they can live that the state. ~ , . ., �* , do well but they can live that the state. ~ , .. �* , ., state. well, why can't they live on the estate. _ state. well, why can't they live on the estate, and _ state. well, why can't they live on the estate, and let _ state. well, why can't they live on the estate, and let all _ state. well, why can't they live on the estate, and let all of - state. well, why can't they live on the estate, and let all of the - the estate, and let all of the people on that estate together questioning not pick them out, which is the grammar school idea and academy idea and all that kind of baloney. have you stayed on the estate? ., , , , baloney. have you stayed on the estate? ., , , ., estate? no, because my mother died in a council — estate? no, because my mother died in a council flat. _ estate? no, because my mother died in a council flat. my _ estate? no, because my mother died in a council flat. my mother- estate? no, because my mother died in a council flat. my mother did, - estate? no, because my mother died in a councilflat. my mother did, i - in a councilflat. my mother did, i but he has because i have always earned a good, decent wage, along with my wife. and we have a home and that we own ourselves. what with my wife. and we have a home and that we own ourselves.— that we own ourselves. what about the tories? — that we own ourselves. what about the tories? they _ that we own ourselves. what about the tories? they will— that we own ourselves. what about the tories? they will say _ that we own ourselves. what about the tories? they will say that - that we own ourselves. what about the tories? they will say that if - that we own ourselves. what about the tories? they will say that if it l the tories? they will say that if it comes to this, they have a manifesto promise of minimum service levels, a sort of guarantee that the most important things will happen on the railway, freight, for example? can make that happen or will you stop and questioning we do not want it to happen,. ii and questioning we do not want it to ha en,. , , happen,. if they bring in legislation _ happen,. if they bring in legislation to _ happen,. if they bring in legislation to stop - happen,. if they bring in legislation to stop whatl happen,. if they bring in i

legislation to stop what you happen,. if they bring in - legislation to stop what you can happen,. if they bring in _ legislation to stop what you can do, and countries that have this, they will take away the right to strike. there is no point in having a strike if it does not have any effect. people may not like that, but that is simply the chemistry of how we dispute works. in industries where you go on strike and it is just a protest, you stand outside the building for a protest, you stand outside the building for an hour or two and have an extra long lunch break, you're not going to get anything, i'm afraid, which is why all greedy unions and sector to the unions look after them are played and a vulnerable —— grade and sector unions. they want on escalators and if they do that, that is going at the fundamentals of living in a free society. each artist, suffragist, and all the reformists fought for the rights to get to this position where, if our members want it, we take this action. it hurts us, it is difficult to be on strike any community, it is difficult to be a trade union leader organising strikes, but it does bring results. there is a better view, i put it to you, that wants to go back to some of the values that you loved and

admired that your parents grew up with, the solidarity, the community. is it something you... iud’ifih with, the solidarity, the community. is it something you. . ._ is it something you... wish to come back questioning _ is it something you. .. wish to come back questioning i _ is it something you... wish to come back questioning i don't _ is it something you... wish to come back questioning i don't have - is it something you... wish to come back questioning i don't have any i back questioning i don't have any problem in that. we have to be it in a modern way because life is different. people do not socialise that way. the caricature of the minor�*s lodge or at the working men's club, people communicate any different way. they do not want to go to boring branch meetings. they do not always want to take part in residence' associations are supporting the church rebuilding fund or whatever, all these things are part of it. some people do not even want to go to the pub any more. i can't understand at all! we even want to go to the pub any more. i can't understand at all!— i can't understand at all! we will be talkin: i can't understand at all! we will be talking about _ i can't understand at all! we will be talking about the _ i can't understand at all! we will be talking about the fact - i can't understand at all! we will be talking about the fact we - i can't understand at all! we will| be talking about the fact we have i can't understand at all! we will. be talking about the fact we have to have ipa rather than better! but our culture is a — have ipa rather than better! but our culture is a that _ have ipa rather than better! but our culture is a that idea _ have ipa rather than better! but our culture is a that idea of— have ipa rather than better! but our culture is a that idea of the - have ipa rather than better! but our culture is a that idea of the crack, i culture is a that idea of the crack, and it involves more than just telling jokes, and it involves more than just tellingjokes, it and it involves more than just telling jokes, it is about the atmosphere, any community and a society. i think we are missing out ten people are coming out, stuck in their beds, —— bedrooms, not helped ljy their beds, —— bedrooms, not helped by covid. but that thing of being obsessed by your phone and laptop,

living your life to a website. we have to turn that around, surely everyone wants that question might get back to doing some sport or camping or whatever you need to do. i was in the camps, i loved it. finally, i asked you how it was to be in the public i know. —— in the third may close up do you want people to know the name of mick lynch, if you miss traded in a famous trading is like arthur scargill, u memberassembly famous trading is like arthur scargill, u member assembly names from the 70s, jackjones, vic feather, do you want to be a big public figure in that way? i feather, do you want to be a big public figure in that way?- public figure in that way? i have some problems _ public figure in that way? i have some problems with _ public figure in that way? i have some problems with that - public figure in that way? i have - some problems with that personally. i don't... i don't seek it. but everybody has an ego. if i was not known to anyone, i wouldn't be doing myjob. and if you are an anonymous trade union leader, i think there is something wrong with the campaigning that your union is doing. so i would love it if there were 30 well known trade union leaders getting interviews, getting air space,

getting the message across, and that is what i want. it is not for me particularly, and i know it sounds of a humble, but i know i have an ego andi of a humble, but i know i have an ego and i enjoy some of it, these conversations, but ultimately, to sew the union movement gets a profile on society. that is why we need high—profile campaigns and high—profile people. mick need high-profile campaigns and high-profile people.— high-profile people. mick lynch, veneral high-profile people. mick lynch, general secretary _ high-profile people. mick lynch, general secretary of _ high-profile people. mick lynch, general secretary of the - high-profile people. mick lynch, general secretary of the rmt, i high-profile people. mick lynch, i general secretary of the rmt, thank you for talking to me on political thinking and also is the general secretary of rmt a man simply doing hisjob, fighting for his members are rights and making sure they get are rights and making sure they get a better deal than those who are not represented? by a strong trading questioning or is he a selfish militant coming and putting his own interest, his members' interests before those of the wider community? that is a debate where you have to come up with the answer. thank you forjoining me on political thinking.

hello. second half of the weekend not quite as optimistic as the first. it's going to be more cloud as we move through sunday, and some nuisance showers. it has been a beautiful start in northamptonshire, as you can see, but the shower cloud threatening, and we've already seen the first signs of those showers across the north norfolk coast. now, the reason being high pressure is drifting away to the north—west and we're seeing a tightening of isobars, the strengthening of the wind, a coolish source as well coming down from the north. that so far has been driving the showers chiefly along that east coast, as you can see. one or two as welljust moving their way down through the irish sea along the cheshire gap as well. so cloudier skies as we go into the afternoon and the showers becoming a little bit more frequent. a cooler afternoon in scotland along that east coast, nine to 11 degrees, maybe a top temperature of 1a. fewer showers potentially into northern ireland and still a high of 1a degrees. cloudier skies for england and wales. a cooler story across

that north sea coast. top temperatures of 16 degrees. not everyone will see the showers, but some of those across cornwall and devon could be heavy and thundery by the end of the afternoon. now, as we go through the evening and overnight, most of the showers will be driven along the far north and we'll see some clearer skies. that's going to allow the temperatures to fall away to single figures, so a chilly start first thing on monday morning. and a subtle change in wind direction means the showers could be in different places as we move into monday across the north and the west. and those showers then will push their way steadily inland, so another cloudy day, another coolish day, and showers hit and miss. not everyone will see them, but if you catch them, they could be slow moving with the odd rumble of thunder. highs of 11 to 17 degrees. the low still with us as we move out of monday into tuesday. we could see some showers or longer spells of rain into the far north—west, maybe starting off dry across central and southern parts of england and wales.

sunshine could trigger off a few sharp showers as we go through the day, but with that sunshine, maybe a degree or so higher — expect temperatures to peak at around 18 degrees. now, as we head to the all—important bank holiday weekend, still some level of uncertainty for the weather story here, but it looks a little bit warmer and generally a little bit drier. there is a risk of a few scattered showers around. please keep abreast of the forecast. bye— bye.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. anger at the treatment of fans at the champions league final in paris. the match is delayed. some supporters claim they were tear gassed and prevented from entering the ground. real madrid win the match, after a 1—0 victory over liverpool. the spanish football side take the title for a record 14th time. legendaryjockey lester piggott, who won the derby nine times, has died at the age of 86. france and germany urge president putin to engage in peace talks as russia continues its offensive in the donbas. the russian ambassador to the uk tells the bbc that moscow will not use tactical nuclear weapons in the battle for ukraine. we have very strict provision on the