welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur. uruguay is a beacon of prosperity and democratic stability and sometimes turbulent south america. a decade ago under left—wing leadership, it was also a pioneer of progressive social policies. the legalisation of cannabis and abortion rights. my guest today is president luis lacalle pou. he is a fan of unfettered free market economics. does that swim against the tide of public opinion in latin america?

president luis lacalle pou. welcome to hardtalk. mr president, what is it like being as centre—right politician on the continent that is quite clearly moving to the centre left? you are swimming against the political tide. a coalition of five parties that supported this government. you have the for the right, centre—right and centreleft. and i have the bonds between these five parties. this party to the citizens and if you read the programme, you will not be able to find centre right. the question is important because your relatively small country which depends upon strong alliances with its neighbours.

not least in the trading block with argentina, paraguay and brazil. and if one looks at the wider region, you have a problem because the people you need to work with a very different politics from yours. my great—grandfather used to speak about this. stepping here and i took a picture and palmer always said, countries don't have permanent enemies or permanent friends. they have permanent interests. i have to be chief of state for all of my country and my country has lots of opinions. if i do international politics thinking about ideology, i want go forward. i, perhaps it is getting into some trouble with their whole

continent when you see some elections and i'm not a political analyst and perhaps when i go out of office, i can give much more opinions. argentina's president, fernandez, does not see economics and trade relationships in the same way that you do. in london, you desperately want to open up trade with uruguay, you want free trade deals and you may want with post—brexit britain. the problem for you is you sit in the middle of the trade bloc which has high protectionist tariffs can only operate with unanimity and you and uruguay are out of step with your neighbours in argentina. that is an exact example of what happens to us and just what you said, brazil and argentina are not willing to open as fast as we want and as fast as we need. what he went to do about it?

we, we do not accept the argument that we have to be altogether. stop by but that is the rules. the rules, you can interpret them in different ways. a few months ago, brazil and argentina took a measure that did not meet our approval and they took the measure. so, we are trying to convince both argentina, brazil and paraguay and paraguay has more than 33% of our efforts and so, they are not a partner in this journey. but the trouble is, you do not have partners for your journey and i'm looking at a quote from your colleague in argentina and he said quite plainly, if you don't like the south american trading block, you

are welcome to leave. if you feel we are a burden to you, take another boat. we are in the boat. you're not in the same boat. we have to move on. and we will move on and we are trying to deal with china, turkey, the invitation of the prime minister for us was a very good moment with great britain, uk and we stepped forward. you are determined to strike a free trade deal with china because they feel that one third of all your experts by value right now goes to beijing. the problem is, argentina doesn't want the same deal with china that you want and again, i'm going to quote an argentinian official that is the minister of development who said, uruguay can make a bilateral agreement with china outside of the area or it can

choose to be in the area, it cannot do both. let us see. we are just now talking with brazilian government and foreign minister in our country and we will step forward for 37% of exports go to china and we are willing to extend and expand our markets. right now and in here. is there a fear that your population 3.5 million but also economically dependent on a superpower economy like china's population well overi billion. it is an asymmetric relationship and it could be dangerous to you.

let's take it this way. if the only option is selling those products for a good price to china or not selling them, what will you do? i would sell them. if we open more markets in the united states had more markets for us, united kingdom, the rest of europe, turkey, whatever, we would sell them. if i can choose, i won't put all of my exports in one country stop by but that's increasingly what is happening. if you look at should beef and timber exports, china is becoming so important to you that you are becoming dependent on beijing. it's all about economics. not politics. economics, yes. politics, no. how can you be sure that there's going to be consistent separation? because that's the way

they have acted years ago and will act the same way. look around your region. the deals that some other latin american countries have done, costa rica, a project to modernise refineries that went horribly wrong with allegations of corruption, led to arrests and hydroelectric investments that the chinese to come for ecuador. billions of dollar projects. a slight difference and we don't have chinese investments in our country. will you take them ? we do not need infrastructure? we have our own investments and we do not need something separates china can offer. i'm sure if we go on 56, they will want to compete in 56. but our trade is exports. we trade our commodities mainly to china. on this developing relationship between your country and the chinese. i don't want to call my country small but i will accept it. it comes down to this.

the president, when you it with chinese officials you take by deepening the trade relationships and signing a free trade deal, do you, at any point mentioned to them or care about china's human rights record what they are doing to the uighur muslim minority in the province. do you ever mention that? not in the same meeting. but we have meetings about different things and what we are going to say and the un, for example. you have meetings and obviously, we don't align in some places with china. but there is geopolitics, very important geopolitics

for a country like yours. you know that the way the world is working right now, the united states and china are becoming much more obvious and deeper geopolitical rivals. it seems to me that you are taking a strategic decision to deepen your relationship with china. you don't see the prospect of getting the same kind of preferential trade treatment of the united states and so, you're putting your ex, your geopolitical eggs in the basket with china. i put my eggs where i can. that's i have to do with my country to open my country. we have the government that is not looking south. that is a problem for us. we would love to be balanced with europe and the uk. the uk for us is an excellent partner. but values don't matter to you? you are a democratically

elected. now, your singular deepening your key strategic alliance of the country which, i'm sure you would not describe as a genuine democracy. of course not. one thing is commerce and the other is human rights, ideology or whatever. what's your message to the united states right now? are they losing power and influence across latin america because they will not offer you the same preferential trading arrangements, the same closeness of economic ties that china will? i don't think they don't have a view on latin america. or they think they have a view of latin america. we exports software, our first client is united states, our second is the uk. but they think from the border in mexico, to the other areas, we have the same problems

on the same needs. we are talking with us officials and will be meeting with one on thursday in my country. and i think we are trying to be much more open—minded with them and we are not willing to go fast—forward to fta, the free trade agreement. the free trade agreement. i'm not in love with that. we want to sell our projects and out intellectual creations. we want to sell our products and out intellectual creations. that is what we want and until now, this biden administration doesn't look to our country. i feel that the tide is turning. we have a meeting of the americas in the 8th ofjune. that will be a good moment to express ourself and here we are.

one more thought on that in geopolitics and will go to your domestic agenda and we will go to venezuela. the effort among you and your neighbouring countries in latin america, most of them, not all of them, but most of them, has been to isolate the venezuelan government in the hope that president maduro could be removed from office. well, it hasn't happened and the people of venezuela are still suffering terrible economic and humanitarian conditions. are you now prepared to open up to venezuela and end the isolation and say, you know what? maduro is still there and we have to work with him. i don't think maduro is willing to call free elections or willing to have a democracy in venezuela. you see him as a dictator? of course. he is. and he came into mercosur because our former government

had strong relations with chavez and maduro and they had a fight and they went out of the mercosur and it wasn't logical to have venezuela in the mercosur. but that's another story. a few weeks ago, the biden administration got close to maduro because of oil things and we did not understand that move that the united states has done in these days so, if we can really sit down at the table and hope that maduro and his regime are prepared to call to free elections with the opposition in the same terms that they have, we will be happy to sit down. do you see any sign of that today? no, i don't. let's talk about what's happening inside your country in uruguay. you perhaps put it at

the centre of your campaign for the presidency — getting tough on crime and security issues. you looked at the rising number of homicides, gang crime, the insecurity in uruguay and you said, �*i�*m going to fix it.�* and you had a raft of different laws under this law of urgent consideration. much tougher policing, tougher sentencing in your courts. tighter drug trafficking laws. it doesn't seem to have worked. ijust looked at the latest homicide figures. for the first quarter of 2022, they are going up. you should look also the percentage of other crimes. all the other crimes, except homicides, went down. so what's happened to homicide? i don't want to do what i criticised the former governments and say, bueno, these are the gangs killing each other.

because, it's like you have typed a and type b and i don't like that. we're getting lots of pressure from to the drug smuggling pressure. lots of pressure. and the violence have risen, and in this month, this month of may, before mid—may, we had more homicides than last may. we were getting down homicide and if you see the long story of five or six years ago, the results were ok until, until, these last three months. the problem is, the measures that you've taken with tougher policing, tougher prison sentences, giving more power to intelligence agencies, your opponents in uruguay say you're revealing yourself as an authoritarian. did you not see the special rapporteur who concluded that some of the measures you wanted to take were not compliant with international human rights standards and specifically was worried about the new powers given to the police and the way in which you were putting new limits on uruguayan people's right of assembly?

no. i don't agree. that is with the special rapporteur said. no, i don't agree. that is not true. that is not an argument to say that people cannot unite or go to into an assembly. the law that we passed is that you cannot cut a street, for example. people can go on strike, can do assemblies, but they cannot block a street. so you cannot have a mass protest because, of course, that blocks the street. you cannot, only if you asked for, for example, the mayor of montevideo, last week, they blocked five blocks and i'm telling you about illegal blockades or, you cannot go into an industry and don't let other workers in. yes, you've also launched an attack on trade unions.

no, no. that's not an attack. why an attack? because you've curbed the powers and the rights that trade unions have inside workplaces in uruguay. perhaps what we did, is, i believe, isjustice. yes. in between people that did not want to work and people in the same place that wanted to work. people can go on strike and people can give their opinion, but the other people were not able to come into the job. for me, that's justice. does it worry you that independent civil society org — hang on, mr president... an independent civil society organisation, as you will know them much better than me, the centro de archivos y acceso a la informacion publica in your country, and your report, says there is a backsliding of freedom of expression in this country with an increase in violations of the right to freedom of expression. under your presidency.

that is not true. why are these people saying these things? are they lying about you? some, maybe. i do not call lie. we have a different view. but you have to prove those things. we are one of the strongest democracies in the world. again, it's notjust the locals, it's also independent international analysts, reporters without borders, a highly respected institution. no, i don't... they've taken you down... you know what? i don't respect that institution. you don't? no, i heard that... because they have demoted you from 18th place to 44th place in the press freedom index. we are under afghanistan, i don't know, that's — people in our country, free reporters, criticised that exact informer. i don't respect that. that is strictly a lie, that. before we end, you inherited

something from your predecessor, president mujica. he took decisions which i'm surprised you have not reversed. one was on the legalisation of cannabis. uruguay took the lead across the world in the complete legalisation of the entire supply chain for cannabis, production through to sale. and the state is actually involved in the sale of cannabis. you came to power as a right—wing politician, you had declared yourself back in 2014 saying, i am against the state producing and selling drugs and earning money like this and yet, you have done nothing to stop it. why? november 2010, the first law that tried to pass in our country and i think in latin america for legal use of marijuana was myself. i know that but that's a specific point, at that time, you were specifically saying

that there should be a legalisation of the right to grow limited amounts of marijuana. no, not limited. but the point is, i'm not just talking about the growing of marijuana. i'm talking about the entire supply chain and the state profiting from marijuana and you sit there as the president of a state that does profit from marijuana sales and you tell me that you're trying to conquer drug crime in your country and that drugs—related violence is a big problem. don't you see a connection there? i see a connection and i will explain you. first, part of this law, ivoted it, no? because i think that you have to be able to have your marijuana legally and not illegally. i voted that thing. second, i think that the state has not to be in plantation and selling drugs. indeed, we're putting money because we have to put some money monthly, yearly, because the production is not sustainable. are you going

to change the law? i will try to change some things. i don't believe in the states growing and selling marijuana. i believe people that can have his clubs, whatever, that we have, that they produce their own marijuana, and they can have their own circles of marijuana use and not the states. my basic question is this. there are many governments around the world and, inded, the un who say that uruguay has betrayed the international there are many governments around the world and, inded, the un who say that uruguay has betrayed the international fight against illegal drugs by going so far down the track of notjust legalising but also in the state involved in selling marijuana. do you accept that uruguay made a mistake? i did not vote that part of the law. it's a simple question. did uruguay make a mistake? bueno, but i can answer as i want, no? i will answer. you ask and i answer.

no, but i want a straight answer, not a complicated one. it's a pretty simple question. i will go there. we made a mistake. that's why i didn't vote for it at that time. now, we have the system going and so, we can change it but one day, we can change it at a time. i don't agree, i read today in the morning that we betrayed the system. we have cooperation with other countries, we are working together, we exchange information, the drug smuggling is an international crime and we work with different agencies and other countries so no, we are not betraying the international policies. i want to and with something you said. i want to end with something you said. you said uruguayans do not allow excesses in their politicians. our people are very hard and forceful electorally when it comes to criticising those in power. you cannot run for a second term, you're not allowed to in the constitution,

but do you believe you have found the right balance between your right—wing politics when uruguay actually wants? that's what i try to do every day i wake up. it's not easy. but i try to do it. president lacalle pou, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you, a pleasure. hello there. the week has started with plenty of heavy showers. the big question mark is around how many of those heavy showers will remain by the end of week for the platinumjubilee. we will talk more about that at the moment but we start with a look back at the recent

satellite picture and show her satellite picture and shower clouds rotating on top of the uk underneath an area of low pressure which stays with us through tuesday and there will be for the showers in the frontal system being the risk of more persistent drainage northern system being the risk of more persistent rain into northern ireland. what a chilly start of the morning and there will be some spells and sunshine around but some showers from the word go and those were developed quite widely into the afternoon and some will be heavy, some will be thundery and parts of wales in the southwest could try out a little bit towards the end of the day with more than we have sunshine — 17 degrees for cardiff and from plymouth, cooler further north and newcastle, 11 for aberdeen and his band of cloud will bring some ran across northern ireland into the evening and that then moving to the irish sea across the isle of man and southwest scotland as well as england and parts of wales as we head into wednesday morning. elsewhere, some clear spells in one or two showers on wednesday, again, getting off to a relatively chilly start in some places. no prizes for guessing

wednesday is another sunshine and showers day. but the showers increasingly will become focus across central and eastern parts of the uk the west, not as many showers, more in the way of sunshine and with more sunshine generally, temperatures will be a bit higher. 17, 18 may be even 19 degrees and getting into the start of the long weekend, for thursday on the face of it, things to look too bad, plenty of sunshine and showers in this of cloud in the frontal system does threaten to introduce some rain into northern ireland to the afternoon. but we do get sunshine, it will be warmer, temperatures between 18 and 21 degrees. some headaches that are on the forecast for the weekend. try to take charge of this frontal system pushing up to the northwest. the big? it is about how many showers we will see. the chance

is certainly there. that said, it should often be dry will receive some sunshine it will feel fairly warm.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: european union leaders agree further sanctions against russia over its invasion of ukraine, but stop short of imposing a total ban on russian oil. the battle for donbas. we report from the frontline as russian forces close in on ukraine's eastern region. this might all simply bejust in case. a contingency plan. but if the russians do blast their way through they are going to need it. european football's governing body announces a full independent investigation into the chaos that marred the champions league final in paris