this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories at the top of the hour, straight after this programme. hello, everybody. welcome to talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst.- talking business weekly with me, aaron heslehurst. look at what is on _ me, aaron heslehurst. look at what is on the _ me, aaron heslehurst. look at what is on the show. _ me, aaron heslehurst. look at what is on the show. a - me, aaron heslehurst. look at what is on the show. a call - me, aaron heslehurst. look at what is on the show. a call to i what is on the show. a call to pick up your pickaxes. we will have a look at the metals mining boom driven by record prices and the demands of the green energy transmission. but are these old solutions to new problems? cutting out russian supplies has rocked the market but digging up more of the planet may not be the best way

to save our environment. i will be discussing all of that with these two, the boss of the world's biggest metals trading exchange and the head of the mining investment firm specialising in the minerals to power our future. specialising in the minerals to power ourfuture. plus specialising in the minerals to power our future. plus closing the sustainability gap in electronic waste. i talked to the boss of a firm who uses the latest phone up grade to recycle bales from africa. wherever you are joining recycle bales from africa. wherever you arejoining me from around the world a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. since the start of putin's brutal invasion of ukraine we have all been learning the important part is russia's vast natural resources play in the economy. the effect

of cutting them off has certain prices soaring across the globe. this has a devastating effect on the cost of living with energy and fuel prices skyrocketing. another consequence that will undoubtedly be having less of an immediate impact on your daily lives, nonetheless is important for all our future has been on the prices of minerals and metals. raw materials that are the building blocks of modern life and, in particular, green technology, which is at the heart of our battle against global warming. so what are we talking about here? these are a bunch of metals that are experiencing a huge server in surge in demand even before the war in ukraine as current supplies fall short of what is needed. you may have heard of someone nickel and lithium and others like palladium, cobalt may not be on your radar. prices have all been on a rollercoaster of late but the general direction of travel is up. these, along with a number of other listener materials are key to building

green technology such as wind turbines and solar panels but, in particular, batteries. batteries are essential for energy storage and the biggest driver is coming from the energy car industry. that is an industry that has doubled in size in the last year alone. much of the turbulence is a direct reaction to the war is a major global supplier of many of these raw materials. reducing nearly half of the worlds a metal used in catalytic converters and in cars and fuel cells and over 10% of the global nickel supply. that is a middle and high demand for its ability to increase battery efficiency. in fact, the price of nickel and so crazy at one point in march, spiking over 250% it calls the world's top middle exchange to suspend trading for the first time in 37 years. these shifts and high prices are driving a boom in the supply industry which in most part means mining. it is also focusing minds on where the supplies come from with china currently

the dominant world player. triggering president biden the dominant world player_ triggering president biden to call on a cold war era statute, the defence production act, to jumpstart new mines expand on existing ones in the united states. but there are worries that this drive to supply the green revolution create something of a paradox with the impact mining has on the environment. mining is one of the main drivers of system degradation around the world for its direct and indirect impacts. it also has huge social and health impact. the deforestation and erosion caused by mining especially open pit mining is what we are mostly concerned about. the second thing is the impact on people and indigenous communities rights. in 2020, more environmental and were killed in the mining sector than any other sector. the human rights violations, labour rights violations associated with this industry and the

third point is water use. we already in a water scourged war and mining is intensive on water usage. so to help make sense of this turmoil in the market i went straight to the top. i caught up with the big boss of the london metal exchange, the world's number one marketplace for base metals. matthew, a pleasure to have you on the show and thank you for your time. can you help us out here? we know that the market has been experiencing unprecedented turmoil spurred on by the horrendous war in ukraine. can you explain to us what has been going on? if i take copper as an example, a benchmark or bellwether of this crazy ride, as you say, it began pre— pandemic at about $7,000 a ton. that filter $5,000 a ton during the pandemic because demand was down but then, actually, it has now gone back notjust the 7000

but to 10,000 a ton, an all—time record. but to 10,000 a ton, an all-time record.- but to 10,000 a ton, an all-time record. , ., _ all-time record. why? obviously the recovery _ all-time record. why? obviously the recovery post _ all-time record. why? obviously the recovery post pandemic- the recovery post pandemic growth story and people going back to work. of course there is also been the much greater awareness of environmental factors and i think it has resulted from the pandemic and these metals are hugely important for the transition. so these metals are used in batteries and solar panels and wind turbines?— wind turbines? absolutely ri . ht. wind turbines? absolutely right- cepper. _ wind turbines? absolutely right. copper, for - wind turbines? absolutely i right. copper, for example, wind turbines? absolutely - right. copper, for example, an electric car needs five times more copper in the internal combustion engine. wind term vines need to be coated with zinc due deal with corrosion and these are big pieces of kit. aluminium is slated for light weight elements to reduce fuel consumption. so all of these metals are vital for that green transition. 50

these metals are vital for that green transition.— green transition. so prices were already _ green transition. so prices were already going - green transition. so prices were already going in - green transition. so prices were already going in this| were already going in this direction post pandemic after all the demand but then came a war on european soil.— war on european soil. obviously lookin: war on european soil. obviously looking at— war on european soil. obviously looking at the _ war on european soil. obviously looking at the war _ war on european soil. obviously looking at the war in _ looking at the war in ukraine and obviously the tragic human consequences of that everyone is aware of. but, of course, there are knock—on effect for supply chains, in particular, around sanctions and tariffs. we have seen two things. and individual countries taking action so, for example, the uk has put a very high import tariff on russian copper and so we have said that we cannot bring russian copper into uk warehouses for that reason. but we have also seen corporate self sanctioning. people who perhaps make things out of metal assaying, you know what? even though it is i would rather source my middle from other countries. and that does have upward pressure on prices

because you have more people competing for a smaller pool of metal from other competing for a smaller pool of metalfrom otherjurisdictions. other other sources of supply readily available? fix, other other sources of supply readily available?— other other sources of supply readily available? a very good question- _ readily available? a very good question. obviously _ readily available? a very good question. obviously to - readily available? a very good question. obviously to bring l question. obviously to bring new metals production on stream is a huge undertaking and actually although these metals are important for the green transition there extraction has an environmental cost so it is difficult to sink a new line because of the environmental impact. so to answer your question, no you cannot weekly bring supply on. question, no you cannot weekly bring suoply om— question, no you cannot weekly bring sopply on-_ bring supply on. let's talk nickel. you _ bring supply on. let's talk nickel. you had _ bring supply on. let's talk nickel. you had that - bring supply on. let's talk i nickel. you had that decision backin nickel. you had that decision back in march to suspend trading on the exchange when prices went up to 150% in a matter of days. explained to us why you had to do that? indie matter of days. explained to us why you had to do that? we have a combination _ why you had to do that? we have a combination of— why you had to do that? we have a combination of all— why you had to do that? we have a combination of all of— why you had to do that? we have a combination of all of the - a combination of all of the factors around fundamentals, the fact that supply was scarce, et cetera. but we then

had an additional problem which we only really understood after the fact which was that a very large position had been built up large position had been built up on the so—called over—the—counter market. these are trades that take place away from the exchange and away from the lme, directly between participants. but when they get very big they can have an effect on market price and as you say, the price shot up over 200% over two days. so we did have to take the very difficult decision to suspend trading. we did not bring that trading back for eight days between march eight and march 16. that is obviously a hugely problematic development for us. we need to understand what we could have done better and how we could have performed better in that

situation but it also really emphasises the point ofjust how on edge commodity markets are. how on edge commodity markets are, , ., , how on edge commodity markets are. _ ., how on edge commodity markets are. ., , ., are. some say that it is one thing to _ are. some say that it is one thing to close _ are. some say that it is one thing to close trading - are. some say that it is one thing to close trading but i are. some say that it is one i thing to close trading but you also spend billions of dollars in deals, some people may have made a lot of money and some people would have lost it. but isn't that just the nature of the game? that is what trading is about? it the game? that is what trading is about? , ., ., , is about? it is a really important _ is about? it is a really important question i is about? it is a really. important question and is about? it is a really i important question and i understand that not everybody is going to agree with what we did. personally i believe that it was the right thing to do because if you have a disorderly market the systematic or systemic impact of allowing those traits to stand would have been very, very significant. so i am actually very confident that the decision that narrow decision to suspend trade, suspend trading and counsel the tread — may cancel the trades that took place during the

period of disorder was the right decision. i think there are broader questions about how we change our market structure so we never have to make that decision again because it is not a decision that we would ever want to make. we took the course of action that i believe was most appropriate but we need to make sure we never are in that position again.— in that position again. when other prizes _ in that position again. when other prizes going _ in that position again. when other prizes going to - in that position again. when other prizes going to level l other prizes going to level off? —— when are the prices going to level off? off? -- when are the prices going to level off?- off? -- when are the prices going to level off? over the ast going to level off? over the past coople _ going to level off? over the past couple of _ going to level off? over the past couple of weeks i going to level off? over the past couple of weeks we i going to level off? over the l past couple of weeks we have seen prices start the fall and stabilise a little. not back to the pre— pandemic levels but that has driven, i believe, by the fact that global growth may be cooling somewhat, that the actual policy makers need to tempt down inflation and that may have an impact on demand but if you look over the medium— long—term unless new supply comes on board it is

hard to see the prices are going to stay low for ever. it will take a long supply —— time for new supplies to come on board. can'tjust dig a big hit fast. board. can't 'ust dig a big hit fast. �* , , ., fast. absolutely. there are technological _ fast. absolutely. there are technological solutions, i technological solutions, particularly around recycling, for example, where we can build more into a circular economy. the interesting thing about metals is that they are infinitely recyclable and so we can do more in that respect. but will that fully address demand? 50 but will that fully address demand?— but will that fully address demand? ., , ., , ., demand? so on this group of metals for — demand? so on this group of metals for the _ demand? so on this group of metals for the green - metals for the green revolution, what can you do or what are you doing to make sure that the mining of the metals that the mining of the metals that you trade in a not causing more harm than good? that that you trade in a not causing more harm than good? that is an im ortant more harm than good? that is an important point. _ more harm than good? that is an important point. if _ more harm than good? that is an important point. if we _ more harm than good? that is an important point. if we look i more harm than good? that is an important point. if we look at i important point. if we look at the metals production cycle there are a number of points where you can see, for example, human rights abuses and cobalt is a great example. cobalt is absolutely vital for the batteries and electric vehicles

but much of it comes from jurisdictions where there may not have the same oversight on human rights and nobody wants human rights and nobody wants human rights and nobody wants human rights abuses built into their car battery. so what we have done at the lme is introduce a responsible sourcing requirement. so as of this year if you want to list your metal on the lme and delivered against our contracts you have to pass notjust style chemical tests to make sure that your metal is high quality middle logically but you have to pass our responsible sourcing test to show that your supply chain is clean and free from abuses.— supply chain is clean and free from abuses. and on that note, thank you _ from abuses. and on that note, thank you very _ from abuses. and on that note, thank you very much _ from abuses. and on that note, thank you very much for - from abuses. and on that note, thank you very much for your i thank you very much for your time. much appreciated. let's get more on all of this because i have also been speaking with the boss of a global mining investment firm who specialises investment firm who specialises in those metals needed for

green energy. brian, a pleasure having you on the show and thank you forjoining me. we start with this, just how big of a challenge is it to get from where the world is in terms of supply right now and where we need to be to power the green revolution? it is where we need to be to power the green revolution?- the green revolution? it is an enormous — the green revolution? it is an enormous challenge - the green revolution? it is an enormous challenge and i i the green revolution? it is an | enormous challenge and i will say it is fast moving towards a crisis and an unavoidable cliff of structural undersupply of metals going into the energy transition.— transition. and how much of this has been _ transition. and how much of this has been exposed i transition. and how much of this has been exposed by i transition. and how much of| this has been exposed by the current geopolitical situation with the russian invasion of ukraine? it with the russian invasion of ukraine? . , , with the russian invasion of ukraine?— ukraine? it has surged to further focus _ ukraine? it has surged to further focus attention i ukraine? it has surged toj further focus attention on ukraine? it has surged to i further focus attention on the failure — further focus attention on the failure of— further focus attention on the failure of the supply chains for critical minerals. and the dominani— for critical minerals. and the dominant position of china across— dominant position of china across the global supply chain for all— across the global supply chain for all of— these energy transition inputs.

clemant there certainly is an opportunity to research these are by— opportunity to research these are by change. there is no way that— are by change. there is no way that the — are by change. there is no way that the us can supply the level— that the us can supply the level of— that the us can supply the level of cobalt and nickel that they— level of cobalt and nickel that they need for the battery is, but it— they need for the battery is, but it is— they need for the battery is, but it is limited relative to the — but it is limited relative to the scale of opportunities to expand _ the scale of opportunities to expand production out of south america — expand production out of south america or australia, so localised supply chains are important, little piece of the answer— important, little piece of the answer but not whole piece. and — answer but not whole piece. and just _ answer but not whole piece. and just how dominant is china in the sphere? china has executed an enormously successful 15—20 year — enormously successful 15—20 year programme. in fact, securing _ year programme. in fact, securing control of the global supply— securing control of the global supply general critical minerals going into energy

transition, technologies and electric— transition, technologies and electric mobility. they have done — electric mobility. they have done this globally, they have done — done this globally, they have done this globally, they have done this by securing a dominant position in the countries where primary resource is found and supplied, and even — resource is found and supplied, and even more importantly build up and even more importantly build up a dominant position and processing of these materials into metal chemicals that are used — into metal chemicals that are used in — into metal chemicals that are used in the factory manufacturing and another energy _ manufacturing and another energy transition technologies, so now— energy transition technologies, so now it — energy transition technologies, so now it today they control between _ so now it today they control between 60% and 90% of the entire — between 60% and 90% of the entire global supply chain of these — entire global supply chain of these critical minerals. i'm _ these critical minerals. i'm wondering, can any of this kind of scale that you are talking about, brian, be really reached without serious environmental degradation? correct me if i'm wrong, as a lay we go, a lot of this mining open pit, literally blowing up mountains, and if you live near one, it will have an impact on

your surroundings. mining and metal processing will always have an environmental impact but it can be environmental impact but it can he done — environmental impact but it can he done in _ environmental impact but it can be done in a responsible n1anner~_ be done in a responsible manner. it is an industry that is, in — manner. it is an industry that is, in a — manner. it is an industry that is, in a somewhat, fundamentally high impact from an environmental point of view, high _ an environmental point of view, high carbon footprint. and there _ high carbon footprint. and there are views of the industry's history that are unacceptable, but it can be done — unacceptable, but it can be done right. it is part of what our— done right. it is part of what our industry needs to do to be a responsible participant and energy— a responsible participant and energy transition — transform itself— energy transition — transform itself to— energy transition — transform itself to ensure that all of those standards are upheld at a very high— those standards are upheld at a very high level, and it is doable _ very high level, and it is doable. mining can be responsible, constructive and clean — clean. and how much ceanr — and how much does a part of recycling have to play in this? some will say, isn't a new extraction just the wrong way

to go about this? recycling is a very important part— recycling is a very important part of— recycling is a very important part of the equation, it is an ecosystem and a set of technologies that have to continue to evolve to be part of a — continue to evolve to be part of a solution to this short supply— of a solution to this short supply of critical minerals challenge. even if that recycling ecosystem is fully developed to its maximum extent over the _ developed to its maximum extent over the next ten years, recycling of lithium batteries, whether — recycling of lithium batteries, whether they be damaged, effective, end—of—life, to recover _ effective, end—of—life, to recover metals, will probably only— recover metals, will probably only supply approximately 20% of the — only supply approximately 20% of the battery metal needs for new battery manufacturing. brian. — new battery manufacturing. brian, let me end on this, is that a silver bullet around the corner back would change the game and all of this? something on the horizon that would make a huge difference to the industry? unfortunately nod, they will continue to be a lot of progress made in developing a battery— progress made in developing a battery systems, and they will develop —

battery systems, and they will develop in a direction that will— develop in a direction that will look to some extent mitigate the need to need materials and short supply, for example. — materials and short supply, for example, by the current chemistry and configuration of the batteries that are driving the electric vehicle revenue will persist for at least the next — will persist for at least the next 10—15 years, and therefore we need — next 10—15 years, and therefore we need many multiples of the present— we need many multiples of the present global supplier. brian. _ present global supplier. brian. i_ present global supplier. brian, i really appreciate your time, i would love to talk to you again soon. great, thank you very much. in the first half, we looked at how the cost of precious metals is rocketing because of a supply crisis due to the war in ukraine. and yet, each year we throw away electronics with tens of billion dollars worth of these metals inside them. among the company is tackling this is are closing the gap among i dutch company that works with companies and networks to collect old mobile phones to be collected in africa and brought to europe

for recycling. the dutch, and our customer as is the global consultancy kpmg, so i caught up consultancy kpmg, so i caught up with the boss. thank you for being. how does this work? we invented something new, this very simply says, minor devices are you want, don't change the human process, when you buy a new device, we can make that devise ways to neutral. that means the device that you buy is compensated by the waste that my company collapse, so we are collecting electronic waste in emerging markets on behalf of our customers. as a result we reduce waste, and that waste compensates your new device. and who do you sell to? we have a service of waste compensation, used increasingly

by the industry itself, the tech industry. you will see, for example, if you are a direct customer and user, that you buy a new devices you are really happy about, those grand devices that you love, but those devices are usually not very aligned to your company or reputational values. those organisations use our service so that they can buy the devices that they need, that they like, but now they can buy them in a way that is a little bit more aligned with our values. some may say, why don't you recycle them in africa where you collect the funds from? again, some also, why do we need to fund this collection in africa? why not find it there and do it there? it exactly, the great thing is that this is perfect — it is neat, clean, but you need to implement stuff and things get more difficult, right? and things get more difficult, riuht? , . , and things get more difficult, riuht? , ., , ., ., right? ten years ago when we started this _ right? ten years ago when we started this company, - right? ten years ago when we started this company, our i right? ten years ago when we | started this company, our goal was to make local recycling

possible. then we found out that the whole ecosystem that would normally allow for local recycling is missing. no collection, no legislation, no consumer awareness. we need to start, very simply, let's collect ways. secondly, let's create a business model that funds that waste collection. and then, that is what we are heading towards alcohol we can go towards local recycling but, again, we need ecosystem to support something like that. briefly, how many phones per year are we talking about? the opportunity to collect as good, as you can imagine, do builyan funds are sold across the globe yearly, so unfortunately around 20—25%. .. the opportunity to collect waste as they are, but this is all about funding, a business model to increase and actually do the collection. currently, we have collected some three—four million phones. we will be scaling, especially

altogether with the industry, to produce these devices. it looks promising. you collect these millions of phones from africa, and i am assuming you find back to europe to be recycled. find back to europe to be recycled-— find back to europe to be recycled. find back to europe to be re cled. ., ~' ., find back to europe to be re cled. ., ~ ., ., recycled. you know where i am auoin recycled. you know where i am going with _ recycled. you know where i am going with this. _ recycled. you know where i am going with this. some - recycled. you know where i am going with this. some also, i going with this. some also, this isn't the most environmentally friendly way, is it? the key thing that we have seen is that perfection is does not bear. as a starting point, you cannot do perfection. what we are currently doing as shipping electronic waste out of africa which is better than leaving it on the continent. you can imagine why people often dump or burn electronic ways. the key thing we're looking towards local recycling. it benefits everyone — local communities, is because shipping waste is difficult, but also the concept of waste conversations need to be stronger, and it will be every resume recycling locally. talking of business, is

recycling the answer? some will sa , recycling the answer? some will say. shouldn't — recycling the answer? some will say, shouldn't phone _ recycling the answer? some will say, shouldn't phone makers i say, shouldn't phone makers make longer lasting phones and shouldn't consumers use the longer? the two words we hear often is assured and itjust was not i think it reflects a little how people unfortunately think about sustainability., for the about sustainability. , for the great about sustainability., for the great concept, we are done. the reality is says it is very, very difficult to change anything in the markets, in the production process, in a consumers�* mines. yes, everything should just be a little less difficult, different, but that started something you can actually do today that also makes commercial sense, and then let�*s see what we can go from there. otherwise we get utopian concepts not implemented. what concepts not implemented. what is next? your _ concepts not implemented. what is next? your back— concepts not implemented. what is next? your back the _ concepts not implemented. what is next? your back the next i is next? your back the next conversation is developing a concept. but it has been in the market for a number of years. what we are seeing happening now is that the industry is embracing this because their

customers appreciate this, and the tech brands benefit from it. we team up with some of the biggest names in the industry to apply it waste conversation for sometimes all devices they sell, so this will this waste conversation is a great concept but also a starting point. there is a —— good luck with everything, i�*d like to chat to you soon. that is all for the show this week. i hope you enjoyed it. contact me on twitter, i will treat you back. thank you for watching, by buy.

borrika studied are plenty of heavy showers. the big question is around how many of those showers will remain by the end of the week. for the platinum jubilee. we�*ll talk more about that in a moment but we started to look back on the recent satellite picture. shower class rotating on top of the uk. underneath, an area of low pressure which stays with us through tuesday so they will be further showers, the struggle system bring the risk of more persistent rain into northern ireland. gradually started the morning, there will be spells of sunshine around but some showers from the word go, and those will develop quite widely into the afternoon, some will be heavy, some will be bunbury. that said, parts of wales in the south—west could well try out a little bit towards the end, highs of 70 degrees for cardiff and for plymouth, cooler further north, 12 newcastle, 11 for aberdeen. this band of coders likely to bring rain across northern ireland through the evening, that the moving across the rsc, across the isle of man,

south—west loddon, north—west england, and part of wales as we head into wednesday morning. also, clear spells and one or two showers, and wednesday, again, getting off to a relatively chilly start in some places. no prizes for guessing — wednesday is another sunshine and showers day, but showers will increasingly focus across central and parts of the uk are towards the west — not so many showers. more in the way of sunshine. with more sunshine, generally, temperatures will be a little bit higher, 17, 18, maybe 19. then we get into the start of the long weekend. on thursday, not too bad, plenty of sunshine, one or two roguish hours but this cloud, a wandal system that threatens to bring rain into northern ireland through the afternoon. we do get sunshine, it will be warmer, between 18—21. some headaches around the forecast for the weekend. high pressure trying to take charge but does frontal system pushing down from the north—west brings the

threat of showers on friday. this broad low to the south could throw showers northwards into parts of wales and england as we had to saturday and sunday. the big question is about how many showers we will see. the chart is certainly there. that said it should often be dry and we see some sunshine it will feel fairly warm.

welcome to bbc news, i�*m david eades. our top stories: european union leaders agree further sanctions against russia over its invasion of ukraine, but stop short of imposing a total ban on russian oil. the battle for donbas, we report from the frontline as russian forces close in on ukraine�*s eastern region. this might all simply bejust in case. a contingency plan. but if the russians do blast their way through they are going to need it. justin trudeau proposes new laws to crack down on on the sale, transfer and importation of handguns in canada.