hello, this is bbc news. the headlines: the crowds have arrived at buckingham palace as the concert to celebrate the queen's platinum jubilee kicks off. 22,000 people are in the audience, including more than 30 members of the royal family. excited ticket holders lined up earlier to see a series of stars performing tonight. now on bbc news, it's time for political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking. the queen has expressed her hope that the platinum jubilee celebrations will focus on what brings us together

on what unites us, not what divides us. my guest on the programme has had to spend much of her career worrying about exactly the opposite, about extremism and how to counter it. she is dame sara khan. herjob now is the government's independent adviser for social cohesion and resilience. before that, she was the country's first counter—extremism commissioner. born and raised in bradford to pakistani parents, she once said, "there is something going horribly wrong with the muslim communities. we need to have an open and honest debate about that." words which won her praise from some, but criticism from many within her own community, who said that she was fuelling rather than countering some of the prejudices about muslim about muslim people, and in particular the idea that many were somehow hostile to their country and their values. dame sara khan, welcome to political thinking. thank you very much. now, we are all this

week — or are we all? — celebrating the jubilee. is this something you, your family will be celebrating? definitely. i mean, i think it is an incredibly exciting time. my children have been asking me about it and yes, i am incredibly patriotic, i love this country, and to be able to celebrate thisjubilee i think is actually an honour. i was talking about this with my daughter yesterday, this may not happen ever again in our lifetime, so it genuinely feels really, really special. it is interesting that her majesty has talked about the celebrations bringing us all together. now obviously she means after political divisions, after covid, we assume, but can that sort of patriotic celebration bring us together in that way, or do you fear there will be quite a lot of people thinking, "this is not really for me"? no, i think it can and i think one of the best examples of that was actually the london olympics. i mean, the nostalgia for that moment in time seems like a long time ago, but i remember people just feeling so uplifted by the positive sentiment of that time,

and to a certain degree, i think the debate around patriotism has been hijacked by certain elements of the political left, certain elements of the political right, it has been seen as being a divisive issue, but actually for a lot of people, there is an inclusive patriotism in this country. we should absolutely celebrate it. i just do not think we wave the flag enough for that. you say you feel very british. were you brought up by your father, by your mother, as being a very british family? oh, gosh, absolutely. i mean, my father came to this country in the 1960s, my mum came a couple of years later, and i think one of the things he really instilled in us is not onlyjust a sense of working hard and contributing positively to this country, but that britain is your home and you have to contribute positively. yes, our origins are from pakistan and we will always have routes there, but britain is your home, so he instilled in us this love for democracy, britain, and making us feel like we can achieve whatever we want, as long as we work hard.

"ignore the naysayers, ignore those people who say you cannot do it, because you can," and i think that absolutely had a massive impact on my life and my outlook. and do you think that underlies your thinking? i noticed even as you described britain as one of the most successful, diverse democracies, which is essentially positive about our national story, yes, lots of problems you want to address, maybe that puts you in conflict with people who want to say, "no, no, no, britain has a whole lot of problems"? look, i'm not under any doubt that there are not problems. half of my life has been spent countering these problems, so i'm very aware of them. even as a youngster, i grew up going to school, obviously constantly being told the p word, experiencing that racism, experiencing that abuse. i remember seeing girls my age being forced into marriage, sometimes being taken to pakistan, being left there, or girls my age who had been offered a place at oxford university for example, got three as, but their parents said, "no, you're

going to get married and have children and that is it," so i am very aware that there are real problems. i think for me, i have never tried to hide away or deny those problems exist. i think other people have, actually. they have tried to suggest we should not talk about these problems because they may fuel extremism or further fuel racism. that for me is a completely incoherent argument. you have spoken about how your father pointed out extremism to you, alerted you to extremism. what happened ? i remember i must have been about 13, 14, at the time and he had gone to friday prayers, he is not a particularly religious man but he would go to friday prayers, and he came back with a leaflet from the islamist extremist group hizb ut—tahrir and they essentially believe in establishing a theocratic caliphate, an islamic state, and he was very clear to me saying, "sara, this is a dangerous, poisonous organisation. do not go anywhere near them. they are the complete opposite of everything we stand for." and again that was something i came across quite a bit, but also, even though my father was patriotic, he knew that there was far more

extremism in this country, he knew there was racism. i remember when the bosnian war happened, and again this is 1994, similar age to when he brought home the leaflet for me, and the fact that he saw and felt that there were europeans in this country, in our world, who were being in a sense ethnically cleansed, even though they had fair skin, they were europeans, and i think that instilled also a fear in him and a reality that, "look, it may be, sara, that one day we will have to go back to pakistan, because wejust do not know how things will progress." was it an active conversation in your house, that threat, that sense of threat? it was very real. i think as a 14—year—old watching the news, hearing yourfather say things like that, even though he had always said britain is your home and you must contribute to it, and to say we may have to leave and then when you watch things like bnp councillors being elected in northern towns, i think as a child and a teenager, that is pretty daunting

and pretty frightening. of course it has an impact on you. and so yes, you kind of think there are threats out there, but i think in one sense thatjust made me even more committed to saying we have to play our part in defending democracy from those threats. now, you spoke about in the past the fact that in your teens you were quite religiously conservative. yes. was it that idea, that sort of sense that people are not standing up for my people that drew you in, or was it an appeal of religious ideas? what was it? i think it was probably a mix of different things, because as a teenager i was quite interested in spirituality, i was quite interested in god, and i don't know whether to call that a pure thing, but i got involved in muslim activism and to some degree certain aspects of islamist activism, and i think a lot of that then eventuallyjarred, because when i saw for example religious preachers saying women can experience marital rape for example or domestic violence, or they were promoting hatred about gay people or non—muslims

for example, that reallyjarred with my own human rights ethos and background, and so i kind of felt split between having a genuine belief in a humanistic egalitarian interpretation of the faith against certain creatures and organisations who were promoting very much the opposite, and so i think that conflict always jarred with me, but at the same time, i felt i'm going to speak out and defend the values that i feel and i will condemn people who promote those really regressive and negative reviews. —— certain preachers. you have talked about your father and the fact that he guided you through the extremism, if you like. what about your mother? what did she think about those teachings that you began to rail against? i mean, again neither of my parents were particularly religious. i think one thing i really took from my mother was she had huge aspirations. i remember she said she wanted to become a police detective before she got married and had children, but that was not what her parents wanted. she was expected to follow down the usual route of get married, have children, and i think again

that had a really fundamental impact on me. again, this was a woman who could not fulfil her aspirations in life and her dreams. yes, you set up a charity called inspire, which fought for women's rights, as well as fighting against extremism. did you have in your mind a sense of i am going to do what my mother couldn't? i think that's definitely... there was that kind of inspiration, but when i was in inspire, the number of women i came across who again were denied basic freedoms, i mean it actually gave me sleepless nights, and i remember one woman telling me how, i think it was tower hamlets, she could see tower hamlets tube station outside her window but she had never sat on the tube before because her husband did not want her to travel the tube, he just wanted her to be confined to the home. and when you hear those kinds of stories time and again, and i spoke to women up in leeds and places like that, they really have an impact on you, they really make you feel if they are in one sense unfortunately voiceless and i feel

like i had a duty of responsibility to try and fight for their rights. that is not saying that all muslim women are oppressed, which i think some people have accused me of, i'm not about the muslim women who have got phds and are highly successful ceos. good for them. i'm concerned about those women who do not have those same freedoms and rights that we all take for granted. as you say, you have had a lot of criticism. the muslim council of britain, when you are appointed to be the tzar, said this would be seen as a move to placate the small sections of society who see muslims as foreign, alien, rather than as equal citizens in this country. do you feel you are walking a tightrope, which on one hand you want to criticise some of what is happening in your own community, but in the danger is if you criticise too much, you will not be listened to by them, you cannot engage with them? no, i don't, actually,

i do not feel like i walk a tightrope at all, because i think one of the challenges we have is when certain organisations, that includes the mcb, when they tried to promote this method that muslims, they are a single community that all think and believe the same way, that is just categorically not true. it is really important that we try... 0n the one hand we are campaigning for equal rights and no discrimination and british citizens and british muslim citizens to be treated the same, but at the same time that means addressing those inequalities, whether they are coming from our public institutions or whether that level of this commission is taking place within muslim communities, so i think it has to be well be honest about these discussions and we challenge this commission wherever it is coming from. i sense that underlying what you are saying is that is not a thing called the muslim community, it is a patronising phrase, the idea that so many people have the same views. look, there are 3.5 million muslims in this country,

you have turkish muslims, you have yemeni muslims, you have from all backgrounds, socioeconomic backgrounds, class, education, everything, and the idea that everyone thinks the same is just complete nonsense. as a classic example, the mcb as you mentioned, they constantly said that the muslim community has rejected prevent. now, when there was an independent piece of research done by crest, they shared that actually 56% of british muslims had never even heard of prevent, and when there was a neutral aspiration of the programme, 80% of muslims would either give their support to that programme... it is prevent, this anti—extremism, anti—terrorism programme, that has a controversial figure. it took baroness warsi, the former conservative party chair who described you as a creation of mouthpiece for the home office as a strong advocate for the government's

policy of disengagement. i want to get to the essence of this. is this really an argument about who speaks up for the muslim community or communities, plural, or is there a fundamental debate about whether there is, in inverted commas, and i do stress in inverted commas, a muslim problem, as was captured in the title of your book, reclaiming muslim identity from extremism? and i think when she made that comment, to be honest ijust found it really bizarre and strange, because she had never actually met me, but she was doing the media tours going round telling me i was this creation of mouthpiece the home office. i just found that... i actually laugh when you say it, it was ludicrous. i think if they were here, they might argue in reply, look, it is prevent that treats all muslims as potential extremists, as potential terrorists, and they might even raise the recent example of a four—year—old boy who was sent into what is called the channel programme you properly know the case, who had talked about guns and weapons that his

dad had, and infact talking about a video game, no idea. and they go that would not have happened to a christian kid or ajewish kid or a sikh kid. i mean, look, i have criticised prevent lots of times. what my critics will not acknowledge is that i have criticised prevent many times in my writings, in my statements. i, as the only person that has actually reviewed the government's counter extremism strategy, i have the biggest criticism and said the government has to urgently reform the entire approach, it is completely outdated, it is no longer fit for purpose, so i am not somebody who is not going to criticise government policy. i have been at the forefront of doing that, so ijust reject

those arguments and look, prevent is not perfect, i do not think any policy in public life is ever going to be perfect. you always need to have independent reviews, of which we know there is currently one happening at the moment, led by william shawcross, and i think you always need an independent oversight, so it will be very interesting to see what his findings are going to be, but i think... it has been leaked, version of his report was that suggested that he was saying double up on the focus on muslim community rather than as it were, some people arguing that the threat from the far right is just as important. i think, just to be clear on the language, i do not think he is saying focusing on muslim communities, i think he's talking about the islamist threat, which to be very clear my own personal opinion, and having led the commission on counter extremism, is that good policy has to be ideological blind, because if you understand extremism, if you understand that extremism is fundamentally a human and societal ill, it has existed throughout time and it will continue to exist throughout time, it is like crime, you're always going to have and that is counter extremism policies and strategies. you have got to deal with all of those types of problems and only trying to focusing on one at the expense of others

is totally counter—productive. you have talked about prevent not being perfect, about there being problems. it is under review, but what are you thinking of? i mean, there are lots of things that i saw. if people and if the government for example, and they did not do this effectively, they did not go out and explain to muslim communities what prevent is about, and in essence they left a vacuum, which in essence they left a vacuum, which when islamist then dominated and said this is what prevent is about, people who were concerned about prevent, thinking it was a spine operation when it simply wasn't, there have clear been mistakes in the past and the example of the spy cameras in birmingham very early on in prevent�*s stages, there were issues like that that caused detrimental failures and people not respecting and appreciating the programme, so those types of challenges have continued, and i think having that

engagement, continuing to engage with communities, explainign what the pressing concerns are and i think that has got to continue in a much better way than we have seen previously. but are you sure a young sara khan, wearing a headscarf, going to talks by people talking about no doubt sharia, the spread of it, talking about a global caliphate, are you sure that a programme like that now would not have looked at you when you were growing up and said look, we ought to get her in? look, i can only talk about my work. people promoting the idea by the way of islamist theocratic caliphate in complete contrast to our democracy is what would be captured under my definition of extremism, because it is so in contrast to everything that our country stands for. you cannot have a theocratic caliphate and support the rights of gay people, which undermines the rights ofjewish people, which undermines the rights of minority muslims or women in general. that in that case, a tap on the shoulder that young

sara khan saying hello, you realise what these people are all about? if your dad was not there to do it, that would not have been a bad thing and that should not be seen as a threat? no, if it is there to... if we understand what safeguarding... look, i had spoken to people for example 0k, who were radicalised into extremism, by far right activists when they were teenagers, but they are a0 years old now and they tell me the impact it had on them, it continues to have an impact on them. 0r people, young kids who have ended up in prison because of extremism and their whole lives are thrown away. the idea that we should not have a safeguarding programme to save kids, to safeguard kids, i think are terrible, particularly now when we are seeing children as young children as young as 12, as a counterterrorism police are telling us, are increasingly being arrested for terrorism offences. that is a real threat and danger and we need to safeguard vulnerable children from that.

munira mirza used to advise the prime minister, who you know well and is admirer of yours. she once said there is a preoccupation amongst some with an islamophobia, there is a preoccupation with a victim mentality. it sounds a bit like you agree with that? i would not agree with that completely. look, there is genuine anti—muslim hatred in this country, 0k? i have experienced it, the polls and the statistics show there is a problem. trying to deny that i do not think helped anybody at all. we know that there is discrimination against muslims in the workplace and so forth. however, having said that, i am also very aware that there are islamist groups in this country who have adopted the language of islamophobia to use as a cover for islamist extremism, so when for example... almost a tool? yes, absolutely, so for example when islamist groups say if i talk or you talk and condemn islamist extremism, now we are suddenly and what that is trying to do is actually silence dissent, is actually creating a climate of censorship and fear, when you cannot talk about islamist extremism, because they have conflated with islamophobia. that is fascinating,

because in your newjob, and you are having a consultation at the moment about how to perform this role, you have talked about social cohesion in local communities, i cannot help noting that you said some local councils, i do not have the language in front of me, but find it awkward to talk about these issues. are you subtly saying i am going to strengthen your resolve? i as a muslim woman can give you the confidence about how you can talk about islamism if you need to and do not have to run scared of it? to be honest, ifeel like i have been doing that for a lot of my life actually, because i think there is a genuine fear, lack of confidence, lack of understanding. you know, when i was at the commission i remember meeting councillors, a problem of both far—right and islamist extremism and those councils felt very comfortable talking about the threat of the far right, but when i press them on what about pushing back

against the threat of islamist extremism in the area and how it is radicalising young muslims they just cannot talk about it. they felt somehow they were going to be offending muslims, somehow it was being racist and islamophobic, and i thought you were not doing a service to muslims in the country if you think that. 66% of muslims in this country believe that more needs to be done to tackle islamist extremists, where 66% of muslims would refer people to prevent, you not talking about the threat of islamist extremism, which harms muslims first and foremost, is totally u na cce pta ble. in one sense you are actually discriminating against muslims, because you are more concerned about political correctness

and the fear of being labelled racist. now, you are a newish in thejob, in part because you have had some maternity leave, and it is a differentjob, or is it? i think people are not quite clear. there was a sense that ministers wanted to keep you advising them as you move from the home office to deal with countering extremism to promoting social cohesion. an insider we spoke to before this interview said there is a perception that the home office is the bad cop and the communities department is the good cop, but may be the home office was just more prepared to tell hard truths about the approach you have to take to certain problematic groups. the implication is that they have taken sara khan out of the home office and said toughen them up. stop all this wishy—washy community stuff. come on, let's deal with extremism. is that right? look, wishy—washy stuff i would never call that... that was my phrase. 0k, 0k. that kind of really important bringing people together from different communities, research has shown time and again how important that is and the quality of that in breaking down prejudice and intolerance in each of us, so that is really important. you mentioned the far right quite a few times in this discussion. there seems to be a debate even whether we should take that seriously,

with some people saying we must take them more seriously, it is not an islamophobic response, and other people saying do not outlaw traditional conservative opinions. what is the right point from your point of view? i mean, look, we have to tackle all types of extremism. sometimes i do feel there is a bit of political point scoring or kind of driven by ideology rather than actually saying we need to tackle extremism, whether it is far right islamist or any other type of extremism, and by the way there will be new forms of extremism, so the idea that we should only focus on one at the expense of another is totally counter productive, it isjust not the right... yes, we need a speciality, we need to develop the training and understanding within our public bodies and institutions, but the idea that we should focus on one at the expense of another is just not acceptable in my view. i mentioned that analysis that munira mirza had of the victim mentality and it seems to me

what this comment has been trying to do is to try and deal with what they would see as kind of sweeping condemnation of societies institutionally racist, something they think is a mistake. is that in essence why you wind some people up? because they think you are happy and successful as proud of your country and you do not share their anger with it, their sense that there is something fundamentally wrong and fundamentally racist about the structures of the country they are living in? no, i do show that anger. as a human rights activist, any type of discrimination makes me froth at the mouth, i really dislike it. what i do not subscribe to is that this argument that i think islamist groups have made, and i think some on the political left, who stressed that the only type of racism and discrimination is at an institutional level, or who say for example the government is engaged in state—sponsored islamophobia. that type of language, that type of narrative i think is totally destructive for young muslims in this country. you are in effect helping to create a wedge between young muslims and the british estate in effect and i think that is totally u na cce pta ble. so i am very aware of discrimination, i have experienced anti—muslim hatred throughout my life and i suspect i will continue to do so, so it is just how do we challenge that into a much more useful

and much more accurate representation of the picture and come up with useful solutions instead ofjust banging on about the reality and this idea of institutional racism without trying to address problems that do exist in some institutions, clearly, but doing it in a very fruitful and meaningful way. we began this conversation talking about the extent to which we will all be brought together by thejubilee. your role is about the social cohesion. if you had to identify one thing, maybe two, that you think would make a dramatic change, could you identify that or is it by definition full of sort of worthy processes and complex reports? i mean, if i was to put it down to one, i think standing up and defending our democracy, our institutions, and the dependence of our democratic institutions, our values and principles and the quality of human rights laws for example, they are so essential to who we are and once we start seeing the degrading of those institutions, of those institutions, those values, if we do not stand up for them, then i think that is fundamentally what will undermine cohesion, so i think standing up for those things are so important

in our democracy. dame sara khan, thanks for talking to me on political thinking. thank you very much. now, there is no doubt that the reason sara khan was appointed to herjob by this government, the reason perhaps she was given a damehood, is precisely because she is willing to challenge so much of the conventional thinking in her area, and in that sense, she is very like two others that i have interviewed recently, like nimco ali or katharine birbalsingh. incidentally you can hear their interviews on bbc sounds. the question facing her and all of them though is how easy is it to live with, to work with, to cooperate with, let alone to convince people you fundamentally disagree with? thanks for watching. hello there. scotland and northern ireland saw the lion's share of the sunshine and the warmth today. further south — although, northwest

england didn't fare too badly — it was cloudier and breezier with some showers. tonight, the weather really gets going, start to see a rush of showers and thunderstorms moving up from the near continent, initially into southern counties of england and then spreading northwards into parts of wales, the midlands, east anglia. this line of showers and thunderstorms merge together to produce an area of more thundery rain as it pushes into the midlands. to the north of here, largely dry, clear skies, one or two chilly spots, a little bit of mist and fog, cooler along the north sea coasts, but further south, it will be quite muggy and mild. so, we start our sunday morning off on a really wet note across the midlands, northern england, parts of wales. some of the rain may continue to be thundery for a while, then it will start to ease down. scotland and northern ireland, again, another glorious day, plenty of sunshine, feeling warmest in northern scotland, 21 celsius. the sunshine comes out across southern england into the afternoon. that could spark off a shower or thunderstorms too. top temperatures here around 19 celsisus, but disappointingly cool under that cloud through central

areas, 12—14 celsius. now, as we head through sunday night, it stays rather cloudy, outbreaks of rain across the midlands, northern and eastern england, much of scotland and southern parts of england, south wales could see clearer skies. but it will be another mild one in the south versus single digits in the north. now, that area of low pressure will start to pull away from the east coast into the north sea as we head through monday. and then we are in between weather systems for monday afternoon. so, it should be a quieter day generally. but we will start off with that area of cloud through many central, northern and eastern areas. the rain eventually pulling away from the east coast along with a strong breeze. then the winds will be lighter into the afternoon. we should see more sunshine across parts of wales, southern england, and again, some good spells of sunshine in scotland, where we could make 21 celsius, but we could even see 20 celsius in the warmest spots in the south. again, into tuesday, we are in between weather systems, so it's another quiet day, we think, before it starts to turn more unsettled from wednesday onwards, as atlantic low—pressure systems start to move in across the country.

that will bring outbreaks of rain followed by sunshine and showers. so it's a quieter start to the new week. wednesday, one area of low pressure will move through, followed by another one by the end of the week, which will bring some windy weather and sunshine and showers.

this is bbc news, i'm lukwesa burak. the headlines at 9pm: we're live from buckingham palace where more than 20,000 people have gathered to watch any queen's jubilee concert. —— the queen's platinumjubilee jubilee concert. —— the queen's platinum jubilee concert. paddington bear and her majesty opened proceedings with a sketch from the palace. tea ? oh, yes, please. gulping and queen kicked off the musical acts, with brian may appearing on the victoria memorial monument, 20 years after he famously performed on the palace roof.