�*s bbc news, we will have all the headlines in the top of the news at the top of the hour after this programme. hello and welcome to the media show. for this week's edition, we've come to paddington in central london, to the newsroom of gb news, because, as i'm sure you may remember, back onjune 13th last year, andrew neil and his programme launched gb news at 8pm on 13june. it was certainly a distinct launch. the studio was quite dark. there were some technical problems. it was widely discussed on social media. within weeks, andrew neil would be on holiday, never to return. within months, nigel farage would have his own primetime show.

and a year on, well, it's still very much on air. just through the window here, there are many people — journalists, producers — working on the output as it goes on. and we're going to consider what's definitely been a tumultuous 12 months. i'm joined by angelos frangopoulos, the ceo of gb news. thanks for being with us. thank you very much for having me, ros, and welcome to gb news. you're still going? we are going strong. in fact, it's been a tumultuous start, but i have to say it's been an exhilarating journey for the entire team and it has been something that really has been very typical of a start—up, i think, particularly in the early days. "tumultuous." there were probably other words being used as well. were there moments in that first week, that first month, where you thought, "maybe this isn't going to hang together"? not at all, not at all. very typical of a start—up that some things go right, some things go wrong, some people come through, some people don't. and the reality is that you almost need to go through some of that pain — although admittedly, i will never launch another news channel again on the 13th

of any month. but the reality is that is where you learn and that is where you really develop the skills and you take that next step up. and, look, the channel is now absolutely unrecognisable that launch on the 13th ofjune last year. but why wouldn't you have done some of that learning away from the public glare? it felt like you were thrashing out things that normally get looked at in piloting, but actually on the tv. yeah, it's a really good question, actually. so to understand that, there's the context of the environment in which gb news launched. we hired and launched during, effectively, a pandemic. we had 120 people hired over zoom. many had not worked together. there were certainly a lot of pressures around new technology, people learning how to work. and some of the training that we had done and the rehearsals that we had done, we were in pretty good shape. a lot of the transmission problems that we had on the night admittedly came because the full transmission chain hadn't been tested all the way through to our broadcast partner. and that's where some of those audio issues and the sync problems came in. isn't that the kind of chain you would check before launching a tv network? you would think so. and if we do it again, we'll definitely be checking that chain. now, we're going to talk more about the launch night, the launch week and what the network's

gone on to become. but i'd like to go back to earlier years in your career, to understand what you've brought from australia to this british news network. i saw one article about you saying you'd been credited with honing the art of cheap but compelling panel—style conservative television because of your time at sky news australia, where you worked for a long time. is that a fair description? is that your expertise? that is not my expertise. i think my expertise goes back to some of the earlier parts of my career, where i started my career in regional television in new south wales, and really it was about connecting with communities. so, ultimately, journalism is not a career as such.

it is actually a craft. it's almost a calling. and a lot of the fundamentals that went into sky news australia were really about connecting with communities, taking programmes on the road, visiting towns and parts of queensland and western new south wales that hadn't been visited by metropolitan media. and that's really very much the skill set and the thought process that exists here at gb news. now, while that might have been your ambition at sky news australia, it's surely not the primary bedrock of the success that that network had at connecting with an audience. in 2014, at a conference in hong kong, you said, "the key thing is audience. we'd identified opinion as a massive driver. opinion—based shows are our biggest shows. they deliver the numbers, and with the numbers comes revenue."

that's what you were doing, wasn't it, placing opinion — and often controversial opinion — at the heart of the schedule? but opinion is not really about being controversial. it's about debating subjects and topics, and not all the opinion that was done on sky news australia was controversial. in fact, one of the first things we invested in was opinion around politics and proper coverage for the first time of australian politics on television. and that meant things like rolling news conferences, having panel debates, shows. and in fact, the first panel debate show on sky news australia was hosted by the former prime minister of australia, tony abbott, and the current prime minister of australia, anthony albanese. so, really, it's notjust about exploring issues for the sake of being controversial, it's about actually having a proper conversation. so you were looking for a point of difference for sky news australia. you're definitely looking for a point of difference for gb news, up against sky news,

bbc news and talktv now. andrew neil has subsequently said of his involvement, his mistake was putting his name on the tin without understanding what would be inside it. what did you want this network to be when you sat down with him, when you sat down with others? what was the plan? the plan has never changed. and in fact, i think that when andrew made that comment, it was more probably around the fact that he found the start—up environment difficult rather than there was... there was no shift or no leap to any direction — left, right, up, down, whatever. what we are delivering today is exactly what we promised right from the start — broad, opinion—based programming where we talk about things that often are not talked about in the broader media landscape. but if i look at the programming that you're putting out and the subjects you're discussing, from the royal family to immigration to cancel culture, this is hardly the only place i can go

to get those things. yeah, i think that they're probably the only place you can get those things in a television environment, certainly. you have a breadth of subject matter and viewpoints that exist in print media here in the united kingdom that really have not been part of the culture of broadcastjournalism. certainly in my experience, journalism generally comes from the left of centre. and you... despite the fact the uk press, for example, has many more newspapers that skew to the right than to the left? well... but i think it's important to remember that we are talking about broadcast here, that i think the distinction between itv or itn, sky and bbc, is very much of a certain viewpoint, whereas we saw an opportunity to broaden out that conversation, to have conversations that really are, if you like, a centre—right perspective, but also including viewpoints from the left. we have nearly got as many labour mps coming on gb news now as we have conservative mps, and that is because we want this to be a town hall where people can come and actually have those conversations. you clearly are being regulated by ofcom and seeking to play by their rules. do you regret the fact that you are being regulated,

in terms of the balance of your programming? not at all, not at all. we have embraced it from day one and that is an important part of our positioning in the landscape. so we could have launched gb news over the top on a connected tv or on youtube or on our own website. we chose to operate in an ofcom—regulated environment because, quite frankly, it gives you kudos. it means that you actually have got credibility in the marketplace. and it also means that we play on the level playing field with the bbc, sky and others. so you're happy to be regulated

by ofcom, you haven't come a cropper with the ofcom regulators, but let's talk away from the ofcom rules and simply about the nature of balanced programming. a little while ago, you were referencing the fact you want to hear all perspectives. in fact, i think the company which is the parent company is called all perspectives. but for example, i was watching dan wootton a few days ago. there was a lengthy segment with nigel farage where dan wootton agreed with everything that nigel farage said on immigration. he then interviewed jim davidson, where he agreed with almost everything jim davidson said about cancel culture. now, the viewers might like that, but it's not a balanced discussion, it's not a impartial discussion, because the presenter is agreeing with the guests a lot of the time. but that is not a news bulletin, as such. and i think you need to understand that, actually, there is a breadth of voices across the schedule on the channel and that is an important part of any rolling news channel. the impartiality exists in its purest form within the news bulletins,

which actually are straight down the middle, impartial, traditional news bulletins. yeah. but the reality is that you do have a variety of voices through the day. and again, if i watched at 6.00, you'll have a panel that actually has got a breadth of viewpoints. dan wootton�*s show does mostly have a breadth of viewpoints. it's got his name on the show, right? so it is dan wootton tonight, so it is important that it is part of his perspective that is weaved through the show. and he has a variety of guests that... they actually do debate the issues of the day. and again, i point back to 0fcom. you know, we're12 months in and we haven't come a cropper, as you say, and that is because we do work very closely within the 0fcom rules. so those are the 0fcom rules. but you set your own rules as well. you've got editorial standards, which people can read on your website. and one of your presenters, guto harri, who's now part of the prime minister's operation but was a presenter for a while, his time on gb news came to an end after he took the knee

as a stance against racism. and in a letter that he sent gb news after that, he said, "how did what i do break the rules?" can you explain how he broke your rules? so i think in that case, you have to draw a distinction between someone who is a guest and someone who is a host. would you take the knee on your show? no. right. but the bbc�*s rules are not necessarily the same as gb news's rules. well, i think if you read our editorial charter, the rules are pretty clear in terms of standards of dealing with things, with making sure that things are not politicised and ensuring that... with respect, i watched nigel farage on dan wootton�*s programme the other day talking about immigration. it couldn't have been more politicised. i've covered nigel farage as a politician. there was no difference between what he was saying on dan wootton�*s show and the things he said when he was involved in ukip and the brexit party. it couldn't be more politicised.

but i think that, you know, actually taking the knee was something that we felt just went too far for a presenter. and the reality is that he was not sacked. in the end, he did resign. and that was actually his choice. we were very happy to have him back. but now we're talking about something that happened a very, very long time ago... yeah, but i suppose what i think people are interested in... in your desire to pursue a new type of broadcasting and to be disruptive, to set your presenters free in a way you say they wouldn't be on other networks, i'm trying to understand where the line is. so, for example, dan wootton tweeted a picture of a couple of people in a park wearing a mask. and the point was, "why on earth are they wearing a mask?" but in your charter, you talk about protecting privacy unless there's a compelling public interest — which that tweet, some would argue, definitely didn't meet. i'm not aware that he was in any way sanctioned for that, so i'm just trying to understand how you draw the line for all of your on—air presenters and reporters. what can they do? what can't they do?

well, it's important, ithink, that we always stick to our editorial charter. and there are things that do slip through the net. i mean, this is the nature of the beast. i mean, the bbc itself has sanctions and there are issues that have happened with sky news over time. but i think in the main, considering we're producing 6,000 hours of television a year, we've done a really good job of ensuring that we stay within the bounds of our editorial charter. and that's something that we do take very seriously. also in your charter, you talk about putting facts first, and we've already discussed where opinion fits into reporting and how those two things interact. would you consider what nigel farage and dan wootton are doing as news journalism? i think i would... i would more appropriately categorise that as opinion. it's not... it is... ultimately, we're a journalism business, but we have to be able to talk about issues in a very free and open way.

and we do that. again, there are facts involved. the facts are checked, and they do go through a process. and if we get something wrong, we say we've got it wrong, just like any good journalism business. well, let's take a couple of examples on that. 0n the 30th of may on michelle dewberry�*s programme, you had a guest talking about climate change who said that sea levels weren't really rising — sea levels are rising, the facts are are out there — and yet you didn't have a scientist on with that guest to correct it. or we could take mark steyn, another of your presenters. he's in the evening. michelle dewberry�*s a little bit earlier on. full fact, the fact checking operation, found that he was wrong to state that a covid booster increases your chances of hospitalisation and death. is it a concern to you that these kind of statements which aren't true are getting through the net? well, i think it's very important to remember that we answer to a regulator,

not to full fact. full fact is not the regulator. sure. and in that case, which i am aware of, there has been, certainly from our perspective and the programme producer's perspective, some contention around the way full fact had actually put together its suggestion that it was wrong. now, the thing is that, ultimately, you have a lot of guests on, you have a lot of content to go through, and that is the nature of a rolling news service. we put a lot of effort into making sure that we get it right. i mentioned one example there to do with climate, and climate has been a particularfocus both of some of the discussions you have on gb news, but it's also been the focus of some concerns that particular perspectives are not just part of reasonable debate but are venturing into something that's potentially less fact—based. jennie king from the institute for strategic dialogue, which is a think tank, says that you've become a central hub

for climate scepticism. are you making a conscious effort to put people on air who are outside of the regular discussions of climate change? i think that that's. .. you've hit the nail on the head, "the regular discussions". so why can't there be broader discussions about all subjects... ? well, they can, so long as they're fact—based. including climate change. there is nothing wrong with actually being able to bring a broader discussion to the population around all issues. and, yes, when it comes to climate change, there is contention and that contention is out there. and we do have multiple sides of the climate change debate. but there aren't multiple sides to whether the sea is rising. the sea is simply rising. and i suppose that's the question some people have, is whether there is an adequate line on gb news between

reasonable discussion across any issue and something that veers into polemic or pure opinion without the necessary facts attached. i mean, the suggestion that there's some sort of agenda is absolutely wrong. so, that is fact. now, let's talk about where you've got to because, as you rightly say, the launch is a while back now, 12 months. from the start, you were always clear that tv ratings were not the only metric of success. you were very open about your digital ambitions. two things i'd like to understand there. one was your definition of success in the digital arena. and then how do you make money off it? those are good questions! so the fundamentals of gb news as a business is that it is a digital business at its core that has a tv station and a radio station attached to it, so it's kind of the opposite to the traditional establishment media landscape. from a digital sense, we have products that... we tell stories in different ways to suit

different demographics. so we have stories that do really well on tiktok that are told in a certain way. we have traditional stories that are on linear television. we treat stories in a slightly different way on facebook. instagram, again, is a different environment. and last time i checked, i think we were well over 5 billion impressions for gb news content online, in a digital sense, and that includes our owned and operated sites as well as social media. so you're pleased with your numbers. but as we look through the window here, all of this tv infrastructure doesn't come cheap. i know you're trying to do it more cheaply than other broadcasters, but nonetheless, you're going to be spending an awful lot of money on your staff, on all the infrastructure that comes with running a tv network. how do you fund that even in part via pre—roll ads on youtube or whatever it might be? you're going to have to do enormous numbers, much bigger than you're doing at the moment, to help run a place like this.

so the business in its early years is skewed towards television revenue and radio revenue, and that is something that will morph more into the digital side of things, which is still a meaningful number over time. that is a big challenge for us, though, in that we are still suffering a boycott by the advertising agencies when it comes to particularly our linear television product. and that is a massive challenge for this business. what can you do about that? well, we have to keep doing what we're doing. we have to ensure that we address the perception issue that exists out there. gb news actually is a mainstream channel. it's not an establishment channel, but it is actually a mainstream channel that reaches mass audiences in the united kingdom across all different platforms, and that does have a value back to advertisers. and it's important that we get that message out there.

now, i'm really interested that you've said that, that you're emphasising this as a mainstream television channel, in part because you want to say to advertisers, "please come back." because it strikes me that what you're becoming is perhaps a bit more establishment than was first advertised when the network was announced. you've joined the royal television society. you've joined the pool which looks after how politics is covered in westminster. you've done a number of other things as well, some of your programming — your breakfast programme with eamonn holmes. nothing wrong with this, of course, but it's not a million miles away from other breakfast programmes that we've seen on tv news. have you realised that to make money, to create a successful business, you've actually got to be a bit less of a rebel than you first thought? you'll never get the rebel out of gb news, i've got to say. look, i think the reality is that programmes like breakfast were never, ever controversial, even in its first iteration, and that we have to have a range of programming.

so during the day, we are politics—heavy. in the evening, we're opinion—heavy and appointment—to—view—heavy. and at breakfast, it is a mass reach breakfast programme. but if you actually look at the overall strategic positioning of it, it's a breakfast show made — importantly — for a radio audience as well, because gb news radio launched on 4january this year. watching gb news a lot in the run up to this interview, a lot of your trails, they use very similar language to the language nigel farage has used. they say things like, "we won't talk down to you. "this is the people's news channel." the tone, the language is familiar to me as someone who's covered nigel farage as a politician. and ijust wonder, the more successful you are at connecting with nigel farage�*s base, do you risk making a channel which is for that section of the uk — nothing wrong with that — but might struggle to reach beyond that section of the uk? well, that language used in the trail that you mentioned is actually gb news language.

and i know it's gb news language because it's language that we've been working on for a very long time... but my point is there's a crossover... ..even before nigel... of course, but my point is that this is familiar for people who have followed nigel farage. the crossover in the language and tone is almost complete. i disagree. i really disagree. and i think that that language applies across... it also applies to eamonn holmes. i mean, you know, our breakfast show is, in every single sense of what gb news is, is really about the people's channel, is really about talking about issues that others don't really raise. and it's done in a very gb news way. you know, nigel is only four hours a week. and he's very successful. he's an extraordinary broadcaster. but then again, so are others that we've got on the channel. we've got great... we've got anne diamond, stephen dixon, isabel webster — these are terrific

broadcasters. and, you know, ithink one of the things that frustrates me the most is that there's this characterisation by others that this is a channel built around one or two people. we know how risky it is — and anyone who runs a tv business. to be successful, you need to have a breadth of talent and a breadth of appointment—to—view. and if you have one single talent that you base an entire media venture over, it's not really going to work out. it's a journalism business. let's focus on the last word, because, of course, in the end, you want this to be a company that makes money. enders analysis, which produces lots of analysis of the media, says that at the moment, a year in, you are a long, long way below where you said you wanted to be after a year.

do you accept that? i think that we're tracking really well. clearly, it's been a tough 12 months. the boycott by the agencies hasn't helped. in terms of audience levels, though, we are really happy where we are right now. i mean, some of our shows rate well over 100,000. and that doesn't sound like much if you're talking itv, bbc one numbers, but particularly where we are... you've got to remember, this business is less than 12 months old as we speak. but when you sit down with the board, as i'm sure you do routinely, and you look through the numbers and you look through your projections and where you are, are they happy to keep backing this? because i'm reliably informed by a number of sources that your budget now is significantly up on your budget when you launched. so you're putting serious money into this, but at the moment, serious money is not flowing in the other direction. so are they comfortable with that? we are tracking to our business plan, in terms of audience. we're tracking on our business

plan, in terms of revenue, where we are right now. yes, costs have increased. there's another competitor that's come on the landscape trying to achieve a similar outcome. and all these things are inflationary. the pandemic went on longer than we had planned, and there are... certainly, there are cost pressures, but that's no different to any media business, ultimately. what do you make of your new competitor, talktv, piers morgan? piers morgan going on to where you used to work, sky news australia. you must have been following this very closely. how are you assessing their efforts? well, gb news runs its own race and i'll leave it to news corp to run its. come on, you haven't been coy for the whole duration of this interview! are you going to go coy on me now? look, i think... well, for starters, i think it's terrific that they launched. i think it is really important that there's more plurality and more choice in the media landscape here. launching these channels is tough — take it from me. building audiences is tough, but we are very different

to what news corp has launched. we are uniquely a british product, we're focused on the united kingdom, whereas... i think you'll find that there's less showbiz on us than there is on that other channel. but ultimately, it's a good thing. choice is good. angelos frangopoulos, thank you very much for joining us on the media show. thank you very much. just as we saw over the weekend, the weather for the week ahead will be a tale of two halves. in the north it was quite unsettled, windy weather showers. not as windy this week but remaining quite cloudy at times with some outbreaks of rain. getting a little warmer potentially later in the week,

but not as warm as it will be for england and wales. northampton — fairly typical of many parts of northern england, temperatures pushing towards 30 degrees by the end of the week because of the high pushing north. say goodbye to the low pressure that has brought the windy weather through the weekend and a lot of showers. we will still have cloud approaching the west towards dawn on a weak weather front. elsewhere, under starry skies, as showers have been fading, a chilly but plenty of sun to start, which tends to ease away as cloud spills across scotland bringing patchy rain particularly to the highlands and islands, perhaps the odd spot elsewhere, and across england and northern ireland too. england and wales will see the best of the sunshine the lion's share, feeling warmer when the sun does come out in northern ireland and scotland, and warmer further south. again in the south, some high levels of pollen are forecast once again.

on monday, as well as strong sunshine levels, of uv, especially this weekend. through the night we will continue to see those weather fronts brushing by the northwest but many skies, light winds in rural spots between six—seven, io—ii. plenty of sunshine follows on tuesday. for northern ireland but particularly western scotland — cloud, patchy rain, but still we are starting to see temperatures picking up further north and building the heat across the bulk of england and pushing to eastern wales. it isn't the heat we are seeing further south it has been intense for one week or so at least 44 forecast, but we will see this high—pressure slipping east, pulling southerly wind, allowing us to tap into some of that heat a little bit, perhaps why temperatures are expected to get across central and eastern areas towards the 30 degree—mark. we will keep you posted,

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