this is bbc news, the headlines: the first flight due to deport asylum seekers from britain to rwanda has been grounded, after a series of legal challenges. the government says it's disappointed but undeterred. it came as hundreds of migrants arrived in the uk, after crossing the english channel in small boats. the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court has visited ukraine's second largest city, kharkiv, which has been badly damaged by russian shelling. on his first visit to the eastern front of the conflict, karim khan announced an investigation into possible war crimes, during russia's invasion. in beijing, thousands of people are being locked down, and millions face compulsory testing, after a surge in coronavirus cases, in the chinese capital.

the outbreaks have raised concerns about a city—wide shutdown just as china's second—largest city shanghai re—emerged from a two—month lockdown. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm steven sackur. russia's invasion of ukraine has raised anxiety levels across eastern europe, nowhere more so than moldova. this former outpost of the soviet empire shares a border with ukraine. it also hosts a pro—moscow breakaway territory. it is poor, beset with corruption, and it could ultimately be in vladimir putin's sights. my guest is nicu popescu, moldova's foreign minister and deputy pm. how can moldova best

protect itself? nicu popescu, in chisinau, welcome to hardtalk. it's good talking to you, stephen, hello. it's a pleasure to have you on the show. now, mr deputy prime minister, you've had more than 100 days of observing vladimir putin's invasion strategy in ukraine. right now, do you fear that putin represents a threat to moldova, too? i think this war is making every single person living on the european continent not only feel the insecurity generated by this war, generated by this blatant breach of international law. and of course we, as all other people living on the european continent, feel the impact of this insecurity. of course, given our geography,

our history, this insecurity in moldova is indeed felt quite strongly. at the same time, we are, of course, ready for all possible developments, for all possible contingencies. but in our assessment — and this assessment is shared by our partners throughout the european union and the united states and canada — is that, at this stage, there is no imminent or immediate military threat to moldova. we feel the impact of this war in multiple ways, but when it comes to our military security, at this stage, the situation remains calm. yeah, you phrased that very carefully — "no imminent or immediate threat," you said. but i'm sure you, just like me, heard vladimir putin's words

the other day, where he appeared to be comparing himself to peter the great — of course, once russia's imperial leader — and he said, "it is also our destiny, like his, peter the great, to return what is russia's and strengthen our nation." did you find that chilling, thinking about the longer term and your security with regard to russia? moldova belongs to the citizens of moldova. we have a very strong mandate to do what we do. very strong support, absolute support for our independence. and that's what we plan to do. of course, we have seen statements coming from the russian federation about our region, about our country, which were not always framed in the best positive manner. but we don't take this statement that you just evoked in any way being attributable to the republic of moldova. we're an independent... but i guess, if i may,

here's the question — you are a neutral country, you know, you're not in nato. you've chosen very deliberately to pursue a neutral path. you cannot be neutral, can you, in the current circumstances? the constitution of moldova was adopted in 1994, and according to that constitution, moldova has been a neutral state since 1994. so, this is the framework in which all moldovan governments have been implementing our security policies, defence policies. so, this is what we work with. at the same time, we're very clear about the fact that our neutrality does not mean indifference to breaches of international law. and from the first hours of the outbreak of the war, we have very clearly condemned the russian aggression against ukraine. our neutrality does not mean demilitarisation. so, we're speaking very clearly about our need

to strengthen our security and defence capacity to defend our neutrality. and our neutrality does not mean self—isolation in international relations. we have very good partnerships in the security and defence sphere with partners that support moldova, and we've always been very clear and transparent about this... right, but in terms of defending yourselves and your country's stability, you've got a big problem, and that is a swathe of your territory is in the hands of a breakaway group who are loyal to moscow. they call their territory transnistria. between 1,500—2,000 russian troops are permanently stationed in that territory. that is an in—built instability for you, isn't it? we do have a separatist conflict for, roughly, 30 years. there is indeed a russian illegal military presence on the territory, and we have always insisted on the fact that russia should withdraw its troops from our territory. at the same time, the way

we have structured and have developed our approach to conflict resolution in the transnistrian region and in our attempts to persuade russia to withdraw its troops, our approach has always been based on dialogue and diplomacy. we are talking to the de facto authorities of the transnistrian region about conflict settlement. we have a dialogue that, more or less, is allowing us to keep stability and peace on the entire territory of moldova, which includes the transnistrian region. we've also been very clear about... but you know much better than i do that, actually, in april there was instability, there was violence. there were grenade attacks on buildings in the transnistrian de facto capital. you, at the time, talked about worrying signs. you suggested that perhaps some outside actors were involved. now you've had time to reflect on it, what do you think was going on and who

was responsible? so, there were indeed several explosions in the tra nsnistrian region. of course, the situation in the region, as a whole — again, on the entire continent — is tense. of course, these tensions are felt in moldova, in the transnistrian region of moldova. now, when it comes to these explosions, they have not had, you know, any type of continuity. there were several of them. there were no victims. we are in touch with the de facto transnistrian authorities on a regular basis. i have a colleague in the government, the deputy prime minister for integration, who speaks regularly, meets regularly with our counterparts in the transnistrian region. and there's a desire to keep peace here. when it comes to assessing what happens in transnistria, of course, our law enforcement agencies do not have the capacity to do the full forensic analysis of

what happens on the territory not controlled by the government in chisinau. we have our own assessments. but what we said is that we do see... the thing is... yes? well, you're trying to assess a situation which looks to some people, worryingly, like there's a parallel with ukraine, in that russia is suggesting that there are real problems of discrimination and persecution of russians and russian speakers in your country. to quote a june 6th statement from the russian foreign ministry, "with regret," they say, "we have to state that russian compatriots living in moldova and russian speaking people, in general, are often experiencing difficulties in guaranteeing their rights inside moldova." that is reminiscent to many of what the russians say about what's happened to the russian—speaking population in the donbas, for example. that is clearly not the case. all citizens of moldova, all residents of moldova — including speakers who have russian or ukrainian, or gagauz or bulgarian

as their mother tongue — have their rights respected. that's very clear, and what's also felt by our citizens, irrespective of what their native language is. so, the statements of the russian foreign ministry are manifestly untrue. we've been... have you spoken to your counterpart — lavrov, sergei lavrov — about this? the last time we spoke with sergei lavrov was in mid—november, when i had a bilateral visit to moscow. since then, we have not talked about that. but our colleagues at the level of our ambassador in moscow and the russian ambassador in chisinau, we do pass on messages to the russian federation, and vice versa. and we have indeed very clearly stated our disagreement with this assessment, and we find it untrue and unconstructive, and unuseful. right, but like i say, the tensions are clearly there, and your biggest problem of all, maybe, is that you've got a very feeble, a very weak military. your military spending is — if i may say so — in regional

terms, very, very low. you only have about 5,000 full—time soldiers, hardly any more than they have in transnistria. and it's obvious that if the russians were, at some point in the future, to launch an attack inside your territory, you would have no capacity at all. unlike the ukrainians, you would have no capacity, really, to defy them and resist them. so, your weakness is there for all to see. i will only agree with you in the fact that for almost 30 years, moldova's defence sector has not been very well ta ken care of. it has not... not enough things have been done to modernise and equip our military. at the same time, of course, given the new regional context, with threats, the russian aggression against ukraine, we are in the process of revising and accelerating

our modernisation of our military. at the same time, we're not just looking at the numbers. what is very clear is, virtually, all moldovan citizens want to live in an independent country, in a sovereign country, in a european country. and i would notjust count military. what is clear is, our society is firmly committed, and, of course, our military is always ready to do what they swear to do, and that is to defend moldova. and we are looking into the best ways to modernise and give everyone the capacity to ensure that moldova stays sovereign, independent and european. we'll get to modernisation and your relationship with nato ina minute. butjust one more question on your reading of russia's intentions. i'm sure you saw the statement from general rustam minnekayev, a senior russian general, who talked about the russian long—term strategy of occupying a huge area of southern ukraine, taking 0desa and, as he put it, opening up an access route to transnistria. now, if all of that

were to happen, moldova's territorial integrity would be destroyed. and i'm just wondering, when you tell me that your assessment is, for the moment, you're safe, how long you think you're safe for? we cannot predict how this situation will evolve. at the same time, we are obliged as a government to be preparing for the full spectrum of threats and scenarios, including negative military scenarios. and we have been doing that since november. so, from before the war, we started preparing for the full spectrum of threats. this is what we're doing. so now we're not in a position to allocate different probabilities to this or that scenario. it's very clear that the situation in the region is dangerous. it's very clear that the russian aggression against ukraine is a major problem for all the countries on the european continent. it's also a problem for moldova. breaches of international law like that are a major problem, and what we have to do,

without being able to predict how things will evolve is to prepare for the full spectrum of contingencies, and this is what we are doing. at the same time, i cannot predict what will happen in the future. no, well, none of us can. but ijust wonder if it's a sign of your nervousness that you, as a government and as a judicial authority, have arrested former president, former leader of the pro—russian party, igor dodon, who very recently was your president, but now, it seems, is under suspicion of widespread corruption and even some reports suggest treason as well. he says it's absolutely untrue and that this is all politics. are you moving against him because he's pro—russian? well, that's the justice system, and that's an ongoing investigation on which, of course, i cannot comment. at the same time, three years ago, roughly, these days, some videos were put on youtube showing former president dodon taking a bag from an oligarch. and they talk about the fact that in this bag there is cash for the party. so there are serious suspicions and allegations of significant

corruption in which former president dodon engaged. and this is normalfor any country with a functional justice system to investigate these kinds of things. and you and our bbc watchers can all check this on youtube, this is easily available. and the right thing to do with such allegations is for them to be investigated. and these things are completely unrelated to the geopolitical and security context. well, you're right, it has to be tested in a court. and of course, he says, dodon says that this is a complete fabrication. i just wonder whether you worry, again, about the rising tension with moscow, because mr peskov, putin's spokesman, and others have talked about the way they're watching this case, and they clearly feel that there's rising anti—russian sentiment in your country.

this case is unrelated to the regional context, the geopolitical context, our society wants the political class to be cleaner. this government, president maia sandu and this government were elected to clean up corruption, to improve governance, to reform the justice system, and a true clean—up of the of corruption in any country starts from decisive action against corrupt politicians. and this is what is happening, this is what should happen, and it is unrelated to foreign policy. now, yes, russia is watching, ukraine is watching, romania is watching. everyone are welcome to watch our domestic processes, our domestic politics, ourjustice system. we are also watching the politics and judiciary processes in other countries. at the same time, this is our business. we are an independent country, and our society wants our politics to be clean. i'll tell you what else moscow is watching, and that's the relationship you're

developing with nato. as you've said to me, constitutionally, you're neutral, and that's not going to change any time soon. but the british foreign secretary said just a few weeks ago that moldova should be, quote, "equipped to nato�*s standard and the uk, for one, intends to help moldova do that." we've also got the americans talking about helping the moldovan army become more capable, more effective. are you, in a sense, trying to enter a partnership with nato by the back door? we have a strong, and good and very transparent partnership with nato. we have had a so—called individual partnership action plan renewed every two years since 2006. all the parameters and the framework of our cooperation with nato is very transparent, all of it is found online, including our cooperation with nato at this stage. so yes, we do cooperate with nato, we do cooperate with european union,

with eu member states, with our neighbours. we participate in un peacekeeping missions. so we do a lot to be present in international cooperative efforts to ensure security. right, but this is delicate. all of this is transparent. yeah, this is very delicate for you, isn't it? the latest polling on nato and your country's relationship with it from within inside your own country suggest that three quarters of moldovans do not support the idea of moldova's membership in nato. you have to tread very carefully here. you are right about our public opinion. that indeed is the case. at the same time, as i said, moldova has had a very good cooperation with nato in partnership, which is transparent, that helped moldova in multiple ways, and our society knows that. so when you quote such opinion polls, the answers are related to nato accession prospects.

but at the same time, our cooperation with nato, we also have a strong bilateral defence cooperation with the united states that is also supported widely by our population. and as i said, our neutrality does not mean self—isolation. 0ur neutrality means that we still need a functional, and strong and modern security and defence sector, and we are doing it through dialogue and through partnership with our partners. and all of that is very transparent, and all of that is widely supported by our society. it's notjust about nato, it's about the eu, cos in the end, moldova has to make choices about how it orientates its strategy going forward. are you going to look to brussels, or are you going to look more to the regional space that putin wants to create, if you want to call it that, a greater russia? you, it seems, are intent onjoining the eu, and in the next few weeks, the eu is going to give you a broad principle decision about whether they're interested in having you as a member state. are you sure, in the current climate, that's a wise move?

what a wise move in a democracy is to do what the people want and to modernise the country and our society for many decades already, want us to be in the european union, and that's what we're doing. for example, the ministry that i have the honour of representing here is called the ministry of foreign affairs and european integration, and it has been having this name for over 15 years. that's a widely supported foreign policy priority. 0ur society and, of course, my government is an expression of that, is that we are a european country with a european language, our language is romanian, it's already an official language of the eu, we have a european history. our economy is deeply integrated with that of the european union, and we want to bring our country into the european union. this is what we're doing. we just applied on the 3rd of march for eu membership,

and in the next days and weeks, we are looking forward to making several significant steps, receiving an eu accession perspective and positioning ourselves to a situation where we soon would become a potential candidate country for eu membership. right, but isn't that a fantasy, given the levels of corruption in your country, given the failings of your judicial system, and given the terrible situation of your economy and the fact that you are so much poorer than the average eu standard of living? it's going to be decades, it's almost unimaginable to imagine a scenario where moldova meets the threshold for membership. well, it's imaginable because multiple, you know, about two dozen, not dozen, but around 20 members — countries of the european continent did that before us. the european communities started with the schuman declaration in 1950, right?

so that was five years after the second world war, at a time when europe was destroyed, democracies were far from being consolidated. so, the route we are taking has been taken before by italy, by germany, by spain, by portugal, by greece, by romania, by hungary, by poland... and you know as well as i do, the political perspective has changed since then. and if you look at what the french government, led by emmanuel macron, is saying, look at what the dutch government is saying. there is no appetite for a further expansion to include countries like moldova. well, i would not say that, of course, in a few days, in a couple of weeks, we'll see the exact line and signal that will come from the eu member states regarding our european aspirations. at the same time, the signals we get is that all the countries throughout the eu understand we're

a european country, and they take our aspirations tojoin the eu as being legitimate, fair, correct, and now the eu, and the european commission and the eu member states are doing their best to help us and we are doing that together. right, but it comes back to where we began, your relationship with russia. the fact is you have a chunk of your territory that is de facto controlled by pro—moscow forces. you're still entirely dependent on russia for your gas supplies and most of your electricity. there are reasons to believe that, in the end, you need a relationship with moscow as much as you need a relationship with brussels. and in that context, i'm struggling to see why the eu would want to take moldova on right now. it's because the way of assessing our european prospects is notjust by taking snapshots, and you are talking to our degree of corruption. but let me give you a few other things. if you look at things into in a perspective and in a dynamic.

so just in the last few weeks, we have been upgraded in the moneyval system when it comes to our systems in place, when it comes to combating money laundering, we've improved, as we speak, in recent weeks, wejumped 49 places on the reporters without borders freedom of the media index. we've been moving very fast to reform ourjustice system. we've adopted pre—vetting, our economy is very connected to that of the eu. some two thirds of our exports go to the eu market. we are talking as we speak with investors about actually developing our infrastructure, modernising railways, building bridges, building windmills and renewable power plants and photovoltaics. so as we speak, there is a very positive dynamic, despite the stress that affects everyone on the european continent. just a few days ago, i went on my — you mentioned president macron, and president macron is visiting kitchener these days.

i was on my bilateral visit to meet with the french foreign minister a few days ago. but among these things, we're also talking concrete projects, concrete investments. there are investors willing to come and invest in moldova because they see moldova being on the right path, improving our governance. and it's a good moment to come into moldova because we have a good future in the eu. well, on that note, deputy prime minister, we must leave it. but i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk, thank you. thank you. hello. rarely do we see weather conditions across the uk uniform,

and certainly this week, some big contrasts being played out, and we'll continue to see them through the rest of the week. scotland, northern ireland always more in the way of cloud here. some brighter breaks, but also some wetter weather at times. as for england and wales, sunshine dominates and increasingly hot and humid — that heat peaking as we head the week out on friday, temperatures widely high—20s, low—30s, into the 90s in fahrenheit for some. and just to put that in context, we're a good 10—12 degrees higher than we'd normally be for this stage in june. so, why? well, it's all down to the fact we've got high pressure to the south and east, which will eventually tap in to building heat across france and spain. but to north and west, close to areas of low pressure, we'll see weather fronts push in, bring in some damper weather at times — and that's exactly how we start wednesday morning across the north and west of scotland. here, though, temperatures higher than they will be for some in england and wales — 11—5 celsius for some after clear skies through the night, but lots of sunshine to begin with. a bit of cloud building up across wales and northern england through the day. couldn't rule out a shower over the hills. most will be dry. greatest chance of some rain coming and going in the breeze across

the north and west of scotland. and a bit more compared with tuesday across northern ireland, though not as windy as it has been. temperatures still lifting here at a degree or so above normal for this stage in june, but up to around 27 celsius in the greater london area. pollen levels also a problem for some of you as we go through wednesday. starting to lift up across scotland and northern ireland. and we'll finish here with some outbreaks of rain or drizzle, but most places become dry through the night and into thursday. so, we have some clear skies around into thursday, 1—2 spots down to single figures, but what you'll notice through the nights and the end of the week — temperatures by night lifting up. the nights getting muggier and more humid. and quite a humid day to come on thursday — most start dry, but some wetter weather developing for northern ireland, west and southwest scotland later on. to the south and east, though, it'll be a pretty hot one — temperatures more widely into the mid—20s for england and wales. but the big surge in heat really will come into friday, but this is where the biggest contrast will be, as far as weather's concerned. scotland and northern ireland, a lot of cloud, outbreaks of rain more extensively maybe pushing into the far north of england

by the end of the day. temperatures, high—teens, maybe low—20s here. but this is where we could see temperatures into the high—20s, low—30s, especially across central and eastern areas of england. and if that's too much for you, the heat breaks down this weekend, but of course, with some thunderstorms. bye for now.

hello. this is bbc news. i'm sally bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the uk government refuses to back down as the first flight to deport asylum seekers from britain to rwanda is grounded after a series of legal challenges. it comes as more than 10,000 migrants have crossed the english channel in small boats this year alone. the head of nato says the alliance is stepping up its supply of heavy weaponry to ukraine after repeated requests from president zelensky. murals and statues in tribute to the ukrainian grandmother, who's become the unlikely face of kremlin propaganda.

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