this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues — straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. russia's war on ukraine has turned culture into a battleground in countries supportive of ukraine's resistant to put in his invasion, some russian artists, musicians and dancers have been stripped of their platforms or

they've been asked to denounce russia's military aggression. when does solidarity turn into censorship? my guess is the world renowned soviet born conductor semyon bychkov. it is our the loser when politics takes centre stage? —— my guest is semyon bychkov. semyon bychkov, a very warm welcome to hardtalk. thank you. you are like all the great musical mic stressors, you are peripatetic, your critics are all around the world, you are constantly travelling put up is

there one place you can point to and say, "that has done the most to define you as a person and an artist?.— and an artist?. no, i don't think s0- _ and an artist?. no, i don't think so. maybe _ and an artist?. no, i don't think so. maybe because l and an artist?. no, i don't l think so. maybe because my destiny made it so that i was born in russia. i lived there 22 years before emigrating to america. . ., , ., . , america. leningrad was a city, when it was — america. leningrad was a city, when it was called _ america. leningrad was a city, when it was called leningrad. l when it was called leningrad. today, st. petersburg. the dna, the roots are there, i've always been, always will be. but then what happens is i come to america, i live five years by first five years in new york and then i conduct granddaughters deputy michigan and buffalo and altogether i think 13, 14 years and buffalo and altogether i think 13, 1a years of life in america, becoming a us citizen, having been stripped of my soviet citizenship when i played for immigration. and in a way, i suppose one could call the being born for the second

time. in certain ways. and then life directly to france and it was a change that happened both professionally as well as personally because i took the direction of the orchestral party at the same time, my life with the back has begun. ever since and now 33 years, i've been living in france. i couldn't really define, the experience enriches your roots, and enriches your identity and of course, the privilege of being able to not only travel as a tourist but actually work with orchestras so upper houses in germany, austria, in this country, in london specifically and elsewhere.— and elsewhere. there you go, there is the _ and elsewhere. there you go, there is the life _ and elsewhere. there you go, there is the life of _ and elsewhere. there you go, there is the life of a _ and elsewhere. there you go, there is the life of a maestro. | there is the life of a maestro. but you didn't use that word root, and if one takes the metaphor of a tree, a tree does have read somewhere for the would be fair to say, if i

pushed you that you are in a sense a musician of russia? 140. sense a musician of russia? no, i don't think— sense a musician of russia? no, i don't think so. _ sense a musician of russia? no, i don't think so. you _ sense a musician of russia? iifr, i don't think so. you see, this is the question that i'm being asked for ever. who are you? i asked for ever. who are you? i suppose that is what i'm saying. suppose that is what i'm sa inc. �* , , suppose that is what i'm sa inc. , , ., , saying. and the best answer i could come — saying. and the best answer i could come up _ saying. and the best answer i could come up with _ saying. and the best answer i could come up with is - saying. and the best answer i could come up with is i - saying. and the best answer i could come up with is i am i saying. and the best answer i could come up with is i am a l could come up with is i am a mixed salad.— could come up with is i am a mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi ma , mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi may. focus — mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi may. focus a _ mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi may, focus a bit _ mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi may, focus a bit more - mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi may, focus a bit more on - mixed salad. mixed salad. ifi may, focus a bit more on the| may, focus a bit more on the soviet experience you stayed up until your early 20s and then it seems you were pretty much forced to leave because it became clear to you that your feelings about the soviet union, your doubts about the system and the party were going to make it impossible for you to make it impossible for you to develop your musical career inside the soviet union. but in a funny sort of way, i'm amazed they let you go. what did they let you go? i’m they let you go. what did they let you go?—

let you go? i'm asking myself back question at _ let you go? i'm asking myself back question at the - let you go? i'm asking myself back question at the time - let you go? i'm asking myselfi back question at the time and we are talking about 1975. this is the period of cold war. this is the period of cold war. this is the period of cold war. this is the period of bright enough. —— fresh enough. it is ideologically very strict and with me of course, who needs a musician? i was completely unknown outside of leningrad because i was still studying in the conservatory. so i don't think i represented any value to the establishment. however, my father was an important scientist who worked for many years in the sciences that were classified. and the danger was always that it often happened that if one member of the family would be dealing with classified information, the others wouldn't be allowed to

leave. there was that danger and that's why when i asked for permission to leave my parents decided to wait until i would be given an answer before applying for the exit visit themselves was up so i was lucky, 30 days later i received the permission. lucky, 30 days iater i received the permission.— lucky, 30 days later i received the permission. one thing that amazes me — the permission. one thing that amazes me about _ the permission. one thing that amazes me about you - the permission. one thing that amazes me about you is - the permission. one thing that amazes me about you is the i amazes me about you is the degree to which you over the years working in these different countries and working with different orchestras from the united states to france to germany to the czech republic, you say that you have an attitude almost like an actor who immerses themselves in a culture before they feel able to tell a story and interpret. what do you mean by this emerging? to literally mean you to speak the language, you have to speak the language, you have to go deep into culture before you prepared to conduct the music? ., ~' ., you prepared to conduct the music? ., ~ ., �* , you prepared to conduct the music? ., ~ ., �*, ., , music? you know, it's really fascinating _ music? you know, it's really fascinating what _ music? you know, it's really fascinating what the - music? you know, it's really fascinating what the nature l music? you know, it's really. fascinating what the nature of artistic creations is. imagine that in this country, let's a

shakespeare, the managing's will have borchard, the russians will have a check on skis to rovinsky, etc, everybody will have their own that represent notjust their culture, they make the culture which is born from the nation itself, from its character, from its way of expressing itself because... from its way of expressing itself because. . ._ from its way of expressing itself because... the question is, are outsiders _ itself because... the question is, are outsiders qualified - itself because... the question is, are outsiders qualified in l is, are outsiders qualified in your view to interpret? yes, but one has _ your view to interpret? yes, but one has to _ your view to interpret? yes, but one has to make - your view to interpret? yes, but one has to make that i but one has to make that effort. that is the important thing. effort. that is the important thin. �* ., . effort. that is the important thin. ., ., ., effort. that is the important thin. �* ., ., ., effort. that is the important thin. ., ., ., thing. and how far do you go in that effort? | _ thing. and how far do you go in that effort? | think _ thing. and how far do you go in that effort? | think them - thing. and how far do you go in that effort? i think them right i that effort? i think them right in saying you speak five languages, is language an important part? languages, is language an imortant art? ., ., , ., important part? languages and art two important part? languages and part two important _ important part? languages and part two important for - part two important for communication. into case of music, music is a, if one is not able to verbally formulate

of what whaen thinks about is specific expression here or there, you will sing it and your colleagues will understand what you mean. of course you can speak the language if you can, then you have this whole array of verbal expression because words are important. i know of writers sometimes pondering on the question of which specific word to choose that will best describe what they want to be described. and musicians do exactly the same thing by other means.— thing by other means. let's take a specific— thing by other means. let's take a specific example - thing by other means. let's take a specific example for| thing by other means. let's i take a specific example for are in london and marla is very important to you, he was born in what we now call the czech republic, he spent much of his life in vienna making music. are you saying that you couldn't properly understand and interpret marla without knowing a great deal about the way checks think, the way they behave, their humour, their

culture and you have to bring that to the music.— that to the music. you know, it's a hard — that to the music. you know, it's a hard question _ that to the music. you know, it's a hard question because. it's a hard question because it's a hard question because it's complex. there are people who are not able to speak the language of the country, music the work of art has originated. and yet they have an instinct that will enable them to interpret it in a way that the natives of that country will feel being authentic in spirit was plenty of that in music. when i think and play the kofi symphony in moscow and leningrad at the time, the russians went crazy, they couldn't imagine anything like it. he was one of them. and it. he was one of them. and et. .. it. he was one of them. and yet- -- he — it. he was one of them. and yet... he captured - it. he was one of them. and yet... he captured the i it. he was one of them. and | yet... he captured the spirit. he captured _ yet... he captured the spirit. he captured the _ yet... he captured the spirit. he captured the spirit - yet... he captured the spirit. he captured the spirit even l he captured the spirit even though he did not speak the language was that what i do know is he said if he were a composer he would've wanted to composer he would've wanted to

compose ——. it helps if you do, it does help. i'm thinking of daniel day lewis was up that's real immersion for or you could call it method acting to an extreme. it's not acting any more because he becomes the person who he has to incarnate either onstage or in the film. he's also some would say, almost impossibly demanding in terms of what he expects from those around him in the film business was up are you impossibly demanding? i have read that at times you have been refused to play a symphony even though it's been scheduled and the audience is expecting you to arrive in the city and play it because you say, i don't feel ready, my spirit isn't there, i'm not gonna do it. ,, ., ., ., it. still more demanding of m self it. still more demanding of myself than _ it. still more demanding of myself than anybody i it. still more demanding of myself than anybody else. | it. still more demanding of- myself than anybody else. and daniel is the same way. but myself than anybody else. and daniel is the same way.- daniel is the same way. but it does make — daniel is the same way. but it does make life _ daniel is the same way. but it does make life a _ daniel is the same way. but it does make life a little - does make life a little difficult if you only are ready

to perform if you absolutely feel it on the day for the you know, i have to have the right to stand on that podium and lead my colleagues, first in rehearsals and then in the performance and convey, which means in a way to serve the music that i interpret and share it with my audience. if i'm not ready it means i don't have the conviction of the kind thatis have the conviction of the kind that is necessary to do it. which means i don't have the right either to be there or to do that, which means i have to do that, which means i have to do something else. let do that, which means i have to do something else.— do something else. let us now talk about _ do something else. let us now talk about russia _ do something else. let us now talk about russia and - do something else. let us now talk about russia and ukrainel talk about russia and ukraine for the days after putin took that decision to send his forces as ukraine use stood before an audience in london and express your pain and you are discussed at what was happening. you made a statement before a concert i think you also got the orchestra to play the ukrainian national anthem. why does this feel so direct

and personal to you? you why does this feel so direct and personal to you? and personalto you? you know, once again. _ and personalto you? you know, once again, it's _ and personalto you? you know, once again, it's a _ and personalto you? you know, once again, it's a very _ once again, it's a very complex, complicated subject. we all know there is in opinion very widespread that artists are to confine themselves to their art and leave politics to their art and leave politics to the politicians. that's very well known. i don't see this specific case of war, whether it's ukraine or any warfor that matter as a question of politics was up for me, politics was up for me, politics is a natural political process that exists in any society everything a day. here we are talking about life and death. what does art deal with if not back? any works of art, what do they deal with if not to reveal the human condition, to reveal the human condition, to reveal the human condition, to reveal human nature and we know how complex it is, is not black and white. there is lots of in between which is great.

we also know that there is such thing as the good in human nature and there is such thing as evil in human nature. and the whole balance that one tries to establish is that the evil can never win.- evil can never win. where thou:h evil can never win. where though do _ evil can never win. where though do you _ evil can never win. where though do you draw i evil can never win. where though do you draw the i evil can never win. where l though do you draw the line between expression of solidarity, where people in the west including cultural institutions want to express their support for ukraine and that teetering over a bring and becoming censorship of art and beauty? becausejust becoming censorship of art and beauty? because just to finish a thought, there are institutions of the royal opera housein institutions of the royal opera house in london scrapping a season from the bolshoi ballet. another orchestra in wales actually pulling a performance of a czajkowski piece. that too many feels wrong, it feels like associating current politics —— tchaikovsky. in a rage against valium or put in his actions

with the censorship of an entire culture. i with the censorship of an entire culture.— with the censorship of an entire culture. i totally agree with that position. _ entire culture. i totally agree with that position. i - entire culture. i totally agree with that position. i could i entire culture. i totally agree| with that position. i could add to these examples the fact that when the war started up house in warsaw cancelled performances of moves us key. first of all, it has been composed in 19 century. for two secondly, it is about the tsar, which is about the absolute power of a monarch and the price he has to pay for that and his people. if those people who cancelled this performance to do with the upper was about, they would decide to perform at ten times a day.— ten times a day. because it would be — ten times a day. because it would be actually _ ten times a day. because it. would be actually illustrative of the very problem. it is would be actually illustrative of the very problem.- of the very problem. it is so relevant _ of the very problem. it is so relevant to _ of the very problem. it is so relevant to what _ of the very problem. it is so relevant to what we - of the very problem. it is so relevant to what we live i relevant to what we live through today.— relevant to what we live through today. relevant to what we live throu~h toda . �*, ., ~ ., through today. let's make it a bit harder— through today. let's make it a bit harder for _ through today. let's make it a bit harder for you _ through today. let's make it a bit harder for you then, i through today. let's make it a bit harder for you then, let's l bit harder for you then, let's talk about perhaps less black

and white but more grey areas. there are some individual artists who have been, you could put it this way, cancelled.— could put it this way, cancelled.- one| could put it this way, i cancelled.- one of the cancelled. yes. one of the treat cancelled. yes. one of the great russian _ cancelled. yes. one of the great russian conductors, | cancelled. jazz one of the great russian conductors, he was sacked, fired from his position in munich, many chair that decision. 0thers wondered, evenif that decision. 0thers wondered, even if they didn't like him because he's been a loyalist to put in, there's great evidence to suggest that he's been favoured with great wealth because of his association with putin. some still felt that cancelling an artist wasn't right. what about you? the call reaction outside _ right. what about you? the call reaction outside of _ right. what about you? the call reaction outside of russia i right. what about you? the call reaction outside of russia when the war started in cancelling what we call, cancel culture, cancel orders, cancel performances it's in a rational reaction which is absolutely

understandable because it simply signifies the revulsion of humanity against this murderous regime. well, if ou're murderous regime. well, if you're describing _ murderous regime. well, if you're describing it - murderous regime. well, if you're describing it as i murderous regime. well, if you're describing it as both | you're describing it as both irrational but also understandable... �* , �*, understandable... because it's rational in _ understandable... because it's rational in a _ understandable... because it's rational in a sense _ understandable... because it's rational in a sense that - understandable... because it's rational in a sense that this i rational in a sense that this is a reaction of the heart. but then in these _ is a reaction of the heart. but then in these complex individual cases, what would you do, again to take the example, because he so closely allied to putin competency is the right to perform or not in the right to perform or not in the west were common feeling is... ? the west were common feeling is... ., , , the west were common feeling is... ? people in the west do not wish _ is... ? people in the west do not wish to _ is... ? people in the west do not wish to hear _ is... ? people in the west do not wish to hear him - is... ? people in the west do | not wish to hear him perform. it is absolutely their right to do so. because they don't wish that. for me the problem is in the fact that we pile everything into the same, put everything into the same, put everything into the same, put everything into the same pile and that is actually should be viewed individual case—by—case.

0k. viewed individual case—by—case. ok. i will give you one case of a young pianist, i don't know, maybe his 22,.— maybe his 22,. that's a very case has _ maybe his 22,. that's a very case has been _ maybe his 22,. that's a very case has been raised - maybe his 22,. that's a very case has been raised with i maybe his 22,. that's a very i case has been raised with you. he's a guy the very beginning appears to be a brilliant musical career, his young russian and he has seen concerts cancelled in canada, for example twice.— concerts cancelled in canada, for example twice. and i read his ost for example twice. and i read his post on — for example twice. and i read his post on the _ for example twice. and i read his post on the facebook i for example twice. and i read i his post on the facebook page, it broke my heart. this kid had lived a very short time until now, had absolutely nothing to do with any of the actions or decisions of his government. and he said i don't have the quote exactly in my mind now. i quote exactly in my mind now. i actually have a goal in front of me, he said "every russian will feel guilty for decades because of the terrible and bloodied decision that none of us could influence or predict.

" for me, cancelling performances of this young man i think is extremely unjustified and in fact, what it does, we have to look at the north sea germany burning books, of those a disapproved of. �* , . so books, of those a disapproved of-_ so your - books, of those a disapproved of-_ so your a i of. it's cancelling. so your a passionate _ of. it's cancelling. so your a passionate anti-putin i of. it's cancelling. so your a passionate anti-putin figure passionate anti—putin figure who is saying that cancelling russian artists in the way you just described represents something i can to north sea censorship?— something i can to north sea censorship? not to north sea a- roach censorship? not to north sea approach because _ censorship? not to north sea approach because we - censorship? not to north sea approach because we don't i censorship? not to north sea i approach because we don't burn people, we don't kill people in that way. but what is the difference between them cancelling culture in their way and us? is we do it on a case—by—case basis and it has to do with those figures that have consistently associated themselves with the regime, had all the benefits from the regime, the titles, the money,

the opportunities, the wealth accumulated as far as i'm concerned, it's not a question of the being artist because i view artists or something else. this is being a willful collaborator for whatever reasons, opportunistic. it collaborator for whatever reasons, opportunistic. it so difficult. _ reasons, opportunistic. it so difficult. i'm _ reasons, opportunistic. it so difficult, i'm getting - reasons, opportunistic. it so difficult, i'm getting at i reasons, opportunistic. it so difficult, i'm getting at one. difficult, i'm getting at one more example to you. a fairly young, talented conductor, he does a lot of work in the west but he also at the time of putin and his invasion was music director of the bolshoi life as well as heavily involved with an orchestra in toulouse france. he claims that he was required in france to issue a public statement can damon putin is invasion. he didn't feel he wanted to do that. he took a radical decision and resigned both post. decision and resigned both ost. , , �* decision and resigned both nost. , , �* , post. yes, but he didn't say, and i post. yes, but he didn't say, and i would _ post. yes, but he didn't say, and i would like _ post. yes, but he didn't say, and i would like to _ post. yes, but he didn't say, and i would like to know i post. yes, but he didn't say, and i would like to know it i post. yes, but he didn't say, i and i would like to know it and i cannot claim anything because i cannot claim anything because i don't know, was he under pressure from the putin regime?

to pronounce himself in favour of the so—called special military operation, which is anything but. that i don't know. but i wouldn't be surprised if he were to be pressured to show his approval of that action because most prominent figures in russia have been under pressure. fine have been under pressure. one fundamental _ have been under pressure. 0ne fundamental principle is, do artists have the right to remain silent? yes. 0r artists have the right to remain silent? yes. or can silence be complicity? it’s remain silent? yes. or can silence be complicity? it's an individual — silence be complicity? it's an individual choice. _ silence be complicity? it's an individual choice. what i i silence be complicity? it's an i individual choice. what i wrote individual choice. what i wrote in my statement when the war started is that once again, of course i have the quote but you might have it here, there are moments when silence in life, where silence is an acquiescence of evil and therefore becomes, which were to use? ally, if you will. but

that's an individual choice to make. and i made mine because i am free. and there are others who are not free. i absolutely recognise their right to do decide that they wish to remain silent, it'sjust not decide that they wish to remain silent, it's just not my choice. but i do understand that they may have circumstances that are very complex that have to do it not only with them alone but with their families. only with them alone but with theirfamilies. but only with them alone but with their families.— their families. but with their families- — their families. but with their families. and _ their families. but with their families. and choices i their families. but with their families. and choices have i families. and choices have consequences. and you face consequences. and you face consequences because it after 1989 you went back to russia and you performed and you clearly enjoyed that experience of return. absolutely. you will not be returning any more as long as vladimir putin is a powerful type doesn't matter to you? powerful type doesn't matter to ou? ., ., , �* ., �* you? know, it doesn't and i'll tell ou you? know, it doesn't and i'll tell you why- _ you? know, it doesn't and i'll tell you why. even _ you? know, it doesn't and i'll tell you why. even if - you? know, it doesn't and i'll tell you why. even if he i tell you why. even if he invited me i wouldn't do it, not under these circumstances. because we think of russia, we come of the world thinks of russia as one entity. what people don't realise is there

are many different rushers. there is the russia of putin and those like him and these are dogs. i know the streets, a lot of them from leningrad and the driveways from which they came from and i know their language and their ways, it's based on group, physicalforce, who is stronger? i'm stronger, i proved it and that's how it is. without thinking that tomorrow someone will come who will be stronger than you. and that's why they always end up very badly for the every single one of them. for me, that russia is the russia that noble russia, you name them all, it's the russia that they kicked out, it still exists. aha, the russia that they kicked out, it still exists.- out, it still exists. a final thought. _ out, it still exists. a final thought. it _ out, it still exists. a final thought, it springs i out, it still exists. a final thought, it springs out i out, it still exists. a final thought, it springs out of out, it still exists. a final i thought, it springs out of much that we discussed, do you think there is a place for

nationalism and national identity in music? there's a universality music but there is also something national about the way music appears. absolutely. i think the word nationalism is sometimes misunderstood. and turned into something very negative and threatening. i don't believe that. for me nationalism is a reaction. reaction for example, that people in czech republic would have say lets a 19th century, because they were always dominated by somebody bigger and stronger, or reaction baltic republics in two or ukraine during the soviet empire time, they were nationalist. why? because they wanted to preserve their identity. their dna, their language, there way of life and their body language. because we all have a different one. and all have a different one. and their music, _ all have a different one. and their music, their— all have a different one. and their music, their music it became a part of that. their music is _ became a part of that. their music is a — became a part of that. their

music is a mirror— became a part of that. their music is a mirror of- became a part of that. their music is a mirror of life i became a part of that. their music is a mirror of life is i music is a mirror of life is that life is music and music is like because music comes from life. in that sense, nationalism is something that is not only natural it is totally understandable. what is not as a chauvinism, where you believe that what you have is better than anybody else's. and we know plenty of such people who believe that. that is not acceptable. racism is not accessible because it's more or less the same thing. and so it goes. so nationalism is something that makes the world, not nationalism but national expression and differences of national character and its expression, they make the world as rich as it is. it expression, they make the world as rich as it is.— as rich as it is. it is a rich world- — as rich as it is. it is a rich world. you make - as rich as it is. it is a rich world. you make it i as rich as it is. it is a rich i world. you make it richer. semyon bychkov, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you stephen.

hello again. for those of you wondering if the hot sunny spell last week was our summer, don't worry, this week is looking pretty warm as well. the satellite picture picks up an area of cloud we had across southern parts of both england and wales during sunday, that actually produced outbreaks of rain which became a little bit more organised through the evening time. but right now we are seeing this rain band pull away and increasingly, the weather will become drier here over the next few hours. showers fading away from the northeast of scotland so much parts of the use case clear skies to take us into monday morning. but it will be quite a chilly start to the day for june, temperature six or seven in parts of scotland and northern england. might be relatively fresh air we have at the moment however, in the week ahead we are going to draw in north easterly winds, actually

the milder winds dragging in air that originated from north america and at milder air would be pushing in from that warm front, that will be a feature of the weather of the next few days. for monday morning we've got a fresh start to the day, as i say, but for most, clear blue sunny skies with up there won't be much cloud even into the afternoon, the humidity levels low, it will feel warm in the sunshine but there will be some thicker cloud working into northwest scotland, thanks to that warm front and that's going to be bringing some low cloud, a bit of mist and fog around coasts and hills and patchy and drizzle. 11t degrees for stornoway but for most, temperatures into the low 20s, it's good to feel warm and that sunshine. that more humid air will make inroads on tuesday across scotland and northern ireland, that's why turning cloudier here. and again, the cloud thick enough for an occasional spot of light rain or drizzle, particularly in the again, could be a few mist and fog patches. further south across england and wales, another fine and sunny day but we are starting to see those temperatures rise higher, 25 celsius in the best of the sunshine and across

parts of the midlands. wednesday, should be some brighter weather across parts of scotland and northern ireland advertise for the still hanging onto a fair bit of sunshine across england and wales but with that more humid airarriving, temperatures can rise faster and further so wednesday we are looking at highs up to 28 celsius. north and west will stay a little bit cloudier, temperatures were generally into the high teens we could see a few showers threatening the south—east on thursday, otherwise, more hot and sunny weather locally across parts of england and wales. still not 19 in 20 fours scotland and ireland, we might see rain in the west by friday.

welcome to newsday — reporting live from singapore. i'm arunoday mukharji. the headlines: former colombian rebel gustavo petro will become the country's first ever left—wing president after winning the second—round vote. this is the scene live in bogota as his supporters celebrate their historic victory. french president emmanuel macron has lost his parliamentary majority, following a strong performance by rival parties in the legislative elections. we have achieved the political objective we get ourselves to bring down the man is arrogance twisted the whole arm of the country to get elected.

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