this is bbc news. the headlines: the former colombian rebel, gustavo petro, has become the country's first left—wing president after winning a second—round vote. mr petro won 50.5% of the vote, compared to 47% for his right—wing anti—establishment opponent, rodolfo hernandez. mr hernandez wished the new government good luck. france's president emmanuel macron has suffered a major political setback after his centrist coalition lost its parliamentary majority. his coalition, ensemble, lost around 100 seats, with major gains for both marine le pen�*s far—right party and a new alliance led by far—left leaderjean—luc melenchon. the international swimming

federation, fina, has voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's events. now on bbc news, it's time for political thinking with nick robinson. hello. welcome to political thinking, a conversation with rather than interrogation of someone whose political thinking helps to shape ours. once again, london and brussels are at loggerheads. once again, the row between the uk and the eu is about the status of northern ireland. once again, politics in belfast is deadlocked, with unionists refusing to share power with sinn fein.

my guest this week is someone whose life and career is based on a refusal to take sides in that political battle. it is a decision that has paid dividends for naomi long, who leads the alliance party, which won a record number of seats in the recent elections. brought up in one of the most fiercely loyalist parts of east belfast, she insisted that politics should not be defined by whether you want northern ireland to stay in the uk or instead to be united with the rest of ireland. but does she and her party really represent anything more than simply none of the above? naomi long, from belfast, welcome to political thinking. hi, there. do you, as i read that introduction, everfind yourself ever so slightly weary of the stop—go nature of politics in northern ireland, which, tomany people looking in from outside,

seems defined by one side saying they will not talk to the other. absolutely. i suppose it has two impacts. yes, i get weary. when i was first elected back in 2003, the assembly was suspended, and actually in the time that i have been elected to the assembly, which has had breaks in between when i was elected to other places, but the assembly has actually been suspended as much as it has sat, so to say that i am weary of the stop—go nature of politics is probably putting it quite mildly. but also, i am motivated by it, because of the whole purpose of me getting involved in politics was that i wanted northern ireland to be better. i wanted to heal divisions, bring people together, make northern ireland work as a society and work from there in terms of people's loggerhead aspirations, and i suppose that is the evidence that we have work to do.

it is tiring but it is also motivating. for 100 years, politics in northern ireland has been defined by what side you're on. rua unionist or are you a nationalist? we have a look in the mirror and think, what are you doing thinking you can change that and convince people that politics is about what it is in the rest of the country? sometimes, it feels like an power struggle, but mainly when i'm trying to explain it to a journalist, who maybe don't really understand the dynamics and the changes that have happened in society over the last 2a years of the good friday agreement, or when i am arguing with trolls on twitter, which unfortunately i still do despite all the advice to the contrary, they want to put me into a box and pigeonhole me in politics, and at that time i do feel like it is an uphill struggle, but when i talk to the public, when i'm out meeting people on the doors, which is minister ofjustice, it makes sense. it doesn't feel strange

or weird then at all. it is true what people are telling opinion pollsters that they don't want to be boxed, they don't want to describe themself as either unionist or nationalist? there are of people who will have constitutional aspirations, but it doesn't necessarily define all their politics. the problem is when you sign up to be a unionist on a nationalist there is often a lot of other baggage that comes with that in terms of your wider political prospectus, and i think even people have some aspirations, they don't necessarily want to buy into the whole package, and it does not necessarily need to be the driving force. it isn't what motivates me to get up out of bed and go to work and be involved in politics. i wouldn't been doing that if it was just about a united ireland or remaining in the uk, because that is not to me fundamental. i do it because i love northern ireland, i believe it can be a better place, i believe our society can work together and we can be more optimistic for the future. that is what you say motivates

you, and i want to get a sense as we talk of where that comes from. you now represent east belfast, you have done it in northern ireland assembly, you have done it in the house of commons, you have done it in the european parliament as well. you have talked of east belfast of being the place that formed me and my values. to those of us who are occasional visitors to the city, we will know that the area that you grew up and is one of the most tribal areas in the whole of northern ireland. you still see murals paying tributes to loyalist terrorists in certain houses as you walk down the street. what sort of upbringing was it for you? how tribal was it? that is one side of east belfast, the other side is that i grew up in a very close—knit community, a place where people genuinely had a real sense of community, where families grew up generation after generation together, and there was a sense of pulling together.

at what was a very difficult time. the tribal stuff actually often impacted really negatively in those communities, where you had gatekeepers from paramilitary organisations exercising coercive control over communities rather than giving people that freedom, and that has shaped my politics, because i hate bullying. i just can't stand it. and it felt like bullying, and it felt oppressive. so, for me, my politics is about trying to give people in those working class communities the freedom that people in more affluent communities actually enjoy, to live in mixed areas, to be able to socialise together and be in mixed communities, to be able to send their kids to integrated schools, and all of those things that are starting to happen after the agreement, that is the aspirations that i have. you talk of coercive control, you talk of bullying. is that your memories of being a little girl,

feeling that you had to conform, that you were expected to be something, to behave in a particular way, to say certain things? it wasn't so much as a child, because i think that like all parents, my parents protected me from much of what was going on, but we were aware that there were paramilitaries in the community. were we aware there were certain families that if you crossed it would have consequences? yes, we were, and people still live with that today. speu spell out consequences. there are younger people who listen and watch this, for whom it is frankly a mystery, it is lost in the mists of time. you are talking of living in an area where you risked life and limb if you were to do the opposite of what people in the community thought was the right thing. in some cases, if there was a dispute with a family who had paramilitary links, people's windows would be smashed, their car set on fire, whatever it might be, asa warning. ultimately, people had to leave the community because they were threatened. those things happened

and still do, and i wasn't immune to that. but there was a wider sense that because there was a battle going on in northern ireland at that time, and it did feel a kind of embattled position that people needed to stick together, because there was a sense that if you didn't, that division would be exploited and so on. i suppose that you just grew up with that as kind of awareness. it wasn't. .. we had, as a family, i suppose an experience where, it sounds like a trivial thing, but people were collecting to paint the curbs in our street red, white and blue, for the 12th, and my mum would not pay for that, because she didn't believe we should deface public property. it is fairly basic stuff! but she felt strongly about it, and we woke up the next morning with a massive union flag painted on the road outside our house, with remember 1690 across the top. we got the message, if you didn't conform,

you would conform anyway. in saying that, they didn't paint the curbs outside the house, so it was a phyrric victory, but we managed to at least assert that we didn't want that to happen. that was the kind of stuff that would have happened. that was something i was conscious of growing up. you live with the celebrations of events hundreds of years ago, with the belief that you had to assert your identity by painting flags, by having marches. your dad was a member of the order, as it would be known in east belfast, the orange order, which for him and people like him itjust seems a perfectly natural thing to do, like being a member of the local club. but you became aware, later in life, too many people and nationals communities that seem to be an aggressive organisation that was very hostile to them. and i suppose there are still many people in northern ireland, in ethnic and rural communities, where older men will go to the lodge because their fathers, their brothers, their neighbours were all involved.

and it's kind of their community, and it is how they engage with each other, so my dad was in the lodge, both the orange and black protectory, so he was quite in there. in fact, the 12th, his lodge marched from our house to go to the 12th, and he was master of his lodge. so i was steeped in that sort of culture, and it was really only when i went to university at queens in belfast that i had my first taste of cross community education integration, of meeting people from a completely different backgrounds, of different values, different ideals that i had... you got a glimpse i'm told, at school, from a teacher, who gave you a glimpse that you didn't have to go along. yeah. i mean, i suppose my family were never particularly staunch which sounds odds when my dad is in the orange order, but they were not particularly staunch, and my mum wasn't particularly political. at the kids would scribble on the blackboard when the teacher wasn't there,

and given what was being scribbled on the walls at the time by adults, some of those would be uvf or uva slogans or whatever. the loyalist pa ramilitaries. yeah, that would have been scribbled. i do remember our teacher when we were in primary school, and she came in and she was cleaning this off the board and she said, "these are bad people." "you should not be writing this on the wall." it was quite a brave thing to say given that some of the kids in class, their parents might have been involved in those organisation. she said these were bad people, it will ruin your life if you get involved. we were only about eight or nine at the time, and the conversation very quickly progressed to people saying, "miss, who do you vote for, who do you vote for?" and she said, "the alliance party." and i didn't really know who the alliance party were, but i thought this was fascinating, so i told the story to my mum and dad, and my father, jokingly, said, you should tell her

that she needs to be careful, because you stand in the middle of the road, you will get knocked down. a phrase i have to say i have heard many times since! and he was wrong, was he? he certainly was, but i went back to school and told my teacher this and she said to me, "tell yourfather much "better to be in the middle of the road than in the gutter, "dear." and i thought this was fascinating that this debate was happening. and i told my dad and he just laughed and said, "good for her." it is a brave thing to go against the politics of your father, to go against the politics of own community, to stand up to the threats which there undoubtedly were, of violence. yourfamily, unlike many in northern ireland, had, i think, no direct consequences from the troubles, nobody who was killed,

but you do remember as a young girl the experience of watching other people go through this sort of tragedy. i remember i was very involved with the girl guides, and i was and the gang show in the opera house. there was a big group of us are performing, and we had had a really good run that week, and the saturday night performance was a special performance, because we were going to be joined by lady cecily gibson, who was the chief guide in northern ireland, her husband, lord justice gibson, was a seniorjudge, and they were travelling back from dublin, and there was an explosion and they were killed. and they were murdered in that explosion. and i remember us being brought together before the performance and told what had happened, because she had come and visited us during rehearsals and she had shown great interest, and we were excited for her to come and see the final show. and we were told what had happened, and then we went on with the show.

many people would conclude in your community, in your family, i suspect, the need to fight the ira, we need to fight sinn fein, the party, that supports as well. we need to come in other words, to back the traditional unionist parties. you chose a different path. you say that your school teacher recommended it, you say that you and your husband met at queens university, you had your first exposure to people of a different background and politics. what, though, convinced you that you could defy the convention that you had to choose a site? i think there were a couple of things. i think first about choosing a side had never really served my community well, so, yes, i came from a unionist background, and in many days would say, should it unionist be in a much more positive position, but i grew up in a terraced house, two up, two down, outside toilet,

very little progress in our community. the whole thing was from politicians that they could rely on getting your support, but they didn't really have to do much in return. and my first experience was when i was at university, i approach my then mp peter robertson and i asked for his help with anissue, a financial issue, and i didn't get any response. and ijust thought, what is the point of politics of people out there to help when you need it? we have spoken tojohn allardice, an alliance counsel who went on to be leader of the party. at that meeting, was that assistance crucial to your decision? it was certainly crucial in terms of first of example politics as a pointless exercise, because that had my perception, i guess, growing up in northern ireland wasn'tjust about people picketing on television, and i apologise to people who now see me doing that!

when he resolve the problem, he can actually do politics in a way that will make peoples lives easier. i liked that because i am a problem solver by nature, that is how i approach life. by nature, that is howl approach life.— by nature, that is howl approach life. how good did feel when — approach life. how good did feel when years _ approach life. how good did feel when years later- approach life. how good did feel when years later in - approach life. how good did | feel when years later in 2010 you defeated that man who refused to help you or ignored yorklea, peter robinson, you defeated him you ran against him to take the house of commons a seat and shock people because he was after a whole first minister of northern ireland at this point. yes, he was, he had held the seat for 31 years. he narrowly won it at the expense of one of the party's founder leaders, solver napier, so there was a particular resonance for the party in a winning that seat. for me, i suppose we had had a difficult relationship right from the outset with the dup in east belfast. i never personalise did, it was never

about bringing down peter robinson, it was about winning for black alliance. but they wanted to bring you down because they club together to get you out years later, which successfully did. they did. do they tell you — and you have talked about being late night on twitter when you should be — they think you are traitor, don't they? you have betrayed your roots, but you are actually helping sinn fein to success because you aren't helping them? yes, in northern ireland, this desire that we have to all take aside it is pretty strong, and the local terminology is a lundie which harks back to the seat of derry, so we are going along way back and get that thrown at me occasionally. what i do, i do it for my community because i believe the opportunities that northern ireland can have as a peaceful place, as a place where we have more integrated lives, where we can work together instead pulling apart are so much

greater than the opportunities that we have with division. it isn't to dismiss the past, the past matters and we have to deal with that in a way that has integrity. i don't excuse what the ira did and i certainly don't accept that it was valid. but, i do believe very strongly that we have an opportunity as a result of the good friday agreement to move beyond that conflict and start to look at how do we rekey our society in a way that we can respectfully disagree on the constitutional position but still work together on the health service, on the state of communities, on the cost—of—living crisis, communities, those things that actually impact on so many people? actually impact on so many --eole? , , �* people? this isn't the place, not in news _ people? this isn't the place, not in news interview - people? this isn't the place, not in news interview for - people? this isn't the place, not in news interview for a l not in news interview for a detailed conversation about something that frankly makes a lot of people either yawn with boredom or scratch their heads with bafflement, the northern ireland protocol — important though it is. but, let mejust

put something of the principal to you. what ministers in westminster say is that we have to listen to the unionists' objection, the things that make them feel as british. we need to listen to the fact that businesses in northern ireland, some of them, find it a lot harder to do business with — a minority. with the rest of the uk, ireland before, and that is what we need to do to support the good friday agreement, we can'tjust bat one side and not the other. you think they are wrong, why? elmo festival, i think they are being disingenuous because this stems back to brexit, and nobody listened to the majority of people in northern ireland over brexit. ., ., brexit. not even to the degree where they _ brexit. not even to the degree where they would _ brexit. not even to the degree where they would temper - brexit. not even to the degree where they would temper how| where they would temper how hard brexit we would end up with. the people of scotland and northern ireland said no to brexit. the people of northern ireland, the vast majority, the overwhelming numbers in northern ireland said in the end that we shouldn't have

brexit. and it was clear that what we needed to do, if you look at our politics for example, was that we needed some kind of soft landing zone and we were denied that by the dup and the conservatives. given you like to stress the positive, can you see a way out? . ., , , positive, can you see a way out? _, , , ., positive, can you see a way out? , ,., out? of course there is a way out, festival _ out? of course there is a way out, festival and _ out? of course there is a way out, festival and how - out? of course there is a way out, festival and how we - out? of course there is a wayj out, festival and how we deal with this, there is always away a lack but it is difficult for ireland — this is about respect and trust. but this doesn't need to be about the unionist community who oppose the protocol, or those who do.— those who do. and also the british government, - those who do. and also the british government, so - those who do. and also the british government, so youj those who do. and also the i british government, so you do those who do. and also the - british government, so you do a brussels if they haven't done a deal with the unionists, can a customer they can because international relations is not a devolved issue and the good friday agreement and the requirement for cross community consent only applies to those issues, which are devolved matters, not to those which are. so, for example, brexit was able to happen even though a majority in northern ireland and a majority of nationalists

are posted. look, for example at a different issue, the government dealing with the issue of legacy cases in westminster. legacies from the so—called troubles, legacy of violence. a legacy of violence, looking into inquiries that have never been completed and trying to bring those to a conclusion. they are about to take action there which will have implications for the devolved government. they have no support from any political party. when michelle o'neill was on this programme, the leader of sinn fein in the north, she said she thought they would be a united ireland, quite possibly in her lifetime. do you? i possibly in her lifetime. do ou? ., �* 4' ., possibly in her lifetime. do ou? ., �*

were content with the status quo are less content with the status quo than they previously were. i5 status quo than they previously were. , . , , ., were. is that the best way to describe you, _ were. is that the best way to describe you, a _ were. is that the best way to describe you, a pragmatic i describe you, a pragmatic unionist, content for now but ready to change your mind? mark ella not really, i suppose i don't really define myself in that way. i know you don't define yourself but you must have a view. i define yourself but you must have a view.— have a view. i don't necessarily - have a view. i don't necessarily need i have a view. i don't necessarily need of| have a view. i don't i necessarily need of you have a view. i don't - necessarily need of you right now because it isn't a pressing question. as i've before, i am a pragmatic, politician. everyone else is going around having an argument about something this fundamental and you are susie saying that when you are susie saying that when you are susie saying that when you are home with michael, when you are home with michael, when you are home with michael, when you are pouring a glass of wine you are pouring a glass of wine you aren't saying, you think there's all that, you don't have any opinion? i there's all that, you don't have any opinion?- there's all that, you don't have any opinion? i don't have a stron: have any opinion? i don't have a strong opinion _ have any opinion? i don't have a strong opinion on _ have any opinion? i don't have a strong opinion on what i have any opinion? i don't have a strong opinion on what is i have any opinion? i don't have| a strong opinion on what is the best outcome for northern ireland, i really genuinely don't, but i do see as everyone else does that every time the government intervenes in a that are damaging to northern ireland or upsetting to the political process here that it

makes the argument for northern ireland remaining in the uk more difficult. it ireland remaining in the uk more difficult.— ireland remaining in the uk more difficult. if you woke up in a united — more difficult. if you woke up in a united ireland _ more difficult. if you woke up in a united ireland you - more difficult. if you woke up in a united ireland you would| in a united ireland you would not be in a despair? i recognise that every time unionism reacts in at this kind of over—the—top way it discombobulated nationalists in northern ireland who suddenly feel like, what's the point of giving this a go when we could have unity instead? ijust think that unionism in some ways has dealt itself a real kind of self harming blow with brexit and the reaction to the protocol, but i think is unhelpful.— protocol, but i think is unhelpful. returning to something _ unhelpful. returning to something personal- unhelpful. returning to i something personal before we wind up. you referred to at the beginning of those late nights on twitter, you referred to the fact that it is like a fight in a bar. i imagine that you have a bar. i imagine that you have a lifetime of being abused. yes, i get a lot of abuse. social media particularly but

not exclusively. i mean, just, you know, i had an e—mail recently. i was on rte recently on at the election count and we had just won a lot of seats, i was rushed onto the podium to speak. it was a difficult election campaign for me, my father—in—law passed away from cancer after quite a long battle. he was buried on election day so it was not an easy election for us. i gave my interview and got home, open by e—mail and some gentlemen, i use the term lightly, e—mailed me to tell me that my hair was a mess and that i hadn't seen a stylist in a long time and could do with working on my presentation if i was hoping that people would vote for me. i wrote back to him and told them i was just hoping that people would vote for us, they had in its significant numbers, more significant than ever before, and i said, look, the last number of weeks i have been doing a number of things, i have been running my department, i have been leading my party to unparalleled

success in an election, i have buried my father—in—law, and i thought nothing mattered less to me than my hair, but thank you for reminding me that something does, your opinion of it. but the idea that somebody would bother to send me an e—mail about my would bother to send me an e—mailabout my hair would bother to send me an e—mail about my hair was just... i was incredulous. e—mail about my hair was just... iwas incredulous. but that isn't that unusual. we are constantly getting advice about how we look, i'll wait, the tone of our boys. it is relentless.— tone of our boys. it is relentless. . , ., ., relentless. finally, how do ou... relentless. finally, how do you... there _ relentless. finally, how do you... there will— relentless. finally, how do you... there will be - relentless. finally, how do| you... there will be people listening to this thinking, how do you do it? how do you tolerate that level of abuse and why would you still tell others, as i suspect you would as a party leader, to follow you into politics? i as a party leader, to follow you into politics?— you into politics? i have a stron: you into politics? i have a strong support _ you into politics? i have a strong support network. you into politics? i have a i strong support network and i have a good sense of humour, and i think a lot of the time you just... you have to at some stage put yourself in issues of the people dishing out the

abuse. imagine how sad and empty their lives must be. remind yourself your life is neither. move on.— remind yourself your life is neither. move on. naomi long, leader of— neither. move on. naomi long, leader of the _ neither. move on. naomi long, leader of the alliance _ neither. move on. naomi long, leader of the alliance party i neither. move on. naomi long, leader of the alliance party in l leader of the alliance party in northern ireland, thank you very much forjoining me on political thinking. you, thank you. there is a sense that the plates are moving in northern irish politics, but perhaps in the future politics would simply be defined by which side of the constitutional divide you are on. but, and it is a mighty big but, if there is really going to be a referendum, like what we saw in scotland, on the future constitutional status of northern ireland, if people have to choose simply whether they are in favour of the union, staying in at the uk, all of irish unity it will be very hard for people. in that story naomi long was told by

her father, story naomi long was told by herfather, people in the middle of the road shouldn't get run over. thank you for watching. below i was wondering if the weather last week was our summer, i can assure you we have warm weather we had. on sunday the rain band across the south—west of england and wales brought heavy rain late in the day but it will be pulling away for the next few hours, so eventually the weather becoming dry across all parts of the uk. drive—by chilli forjune. six orseven drive—by chilli forjune. six or seven degrees as we head into the first part of monday morning. monday, dry with plenty of sunshine, not much in the cloud. the air will be fresh, lovely day. the exception is northwest cool and leather cloud will thicken.

mist and fog rolling in and drizzle. temperatures 1a degrees but it was for most of us, warm in the sunshine, temperatures widely reaching the low 20s. warmer still, england and wales have the best of the sunshine, temperatures into the high 20s midweek, a bit of cloud towards the north and west.

welcome to bbc news. i'm david eades. our top stories: former colombian rebel gustavo petro will become the country's first ever left—wing president after winning the second—round vote. french president emmanuel macron loses his majority hold on parliament as rival parties perform strongly in the legislative elections. translation: we have achieved the political _ translation: we have achieved the political objective _ translation: we have achieved the political objective we - translation: we have achieved the political objective we gave i the political objective we gave ourselves to bring down the man, who, with such arrogance, twisted the arm of the whole country to get elected. swimming's world governing body votes to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's events. we have to protect the rights of all athletes to compete. but