this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues, straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. on the eve of russia's february invasion of ukraine, president xi of china and president putin declared their two countries enjoyed a friendship without limits. is that a strategic partnership that beijing may come to regret? my guest is influential chinese think tank founder and sometime government adviser henry wang. from a draconian covid response, to stalling growth,

to a western alliance reinvigorated by that ukraine war, are china's vulnerabilities suddenly in sharperfocus? henry wang, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, steve. it's a pleasure to have you on our show. i'm mindful that you were the founder, the creator of a think tank, the center for china and globalization. you said you wanted it to be a bridge between east and west. right now, it seems many of

those bridges are being burned. would you agree? well, i think it's... yeah, absolutely. we see things have changed a lot in the last five to six years, basically. and a lot of dialogue has been cut off. there's a lot of communications cut off. and most, of course, on top of that, the covid—19 pandemic has also isolated many countries. and also given the, you know, the trade war, the sanctions, the... ..ideological and tax code decoupling and all those things add up. i think that we really need to strengthen the dialogue, strengthen the communication and bridge—building. absolutely. i hope we will continue to do that. but in the context that you've just laid out, everything from protectionism, economic nationalism to the impact of covid around the world, do you think

it was wise for china to declare such a complete strategic alliance with vladimir putin, as it turned out, right on the eve of his invasion of ukraine? does that put beijing in a good place? i think there's quite a bit of public misunderstanding on that. actually, of course, china enjoys good relations with russia and, of course, also with many other countries, too. but we remember that, you know, before actually the beijing olympics, president xi and president biden had a virtual summit. and in that virtual summit, president biden said, "i'm not going to seek to change china," not to set up alliances against china, and also not seek to support taiwan independence. but the moment president biden went back to washington,

they said, "ok, we're going to go to the beijing olympics?" and so, at that time, president putin said, ok, i'm coming. putin said, "ok, i'm coming. "i'm going to support as a major country. "i'm going to come to show my presence and support." so, in that context, president putin came to beijing and talked about friendship, support. and also, they have actually worked outed a joint statement where they said, of course, they have a friendship. there is no limit. i think china has actually said that with many countries. you know, it's not really particularly mean, it was really, of course, we are we are friendly with most countries. if they come to china, we sign a mutual cooperation joint statement. that's very common. so, i don't think there's a military alliance or any strategic alliance that china has. china never had any alliance with russia as well. so, it turned out to be that this ukraine conflict happened. the crisis happened after the beijing olympics. it's caught china by surprise. but the ukraine conflict

is front and centre of global diplomacy today. and what we've seen in almost four months of war are the most terrible evidences of bombing of civilians, of the destruction of entire cities like mariupol. and of course, the fundamental fact is that russia, with its massive invasion, violated the sovereignty of a neighbouring nation state. given all of that, when your foreign minister in china just the other day says that right now our relations with russia now, our relations with russia are as solid as a rock, i again come back to the question, is that really where china wants to be and should be? well, i think that china is actually trying to maintain good relations with all the countries, all the major powers, including us and eu. i mean, just china was probably more pushed to russia, as i can see. but basically, you know,

if china knew that there was an invasion happening, chinese citizens and chinese nationals was the last to withdraw from ukraine, from kyiv. but actually, if you don't mind me interrupting, you seem to be missing my point. china has time and again at the united nations abstained rather than condemned russia. you've talked about your continued neutrality, but the fact is you've ramped up your economic relationship with russia in the last few months. you're now buying vast amounts of discounted russian oil. you are clearly offering aid and assistance to vladimir putin as he continues with his invasion strategy. and i'm asking you one more time, does that, in a strategic sense, make long=term sense for china? no, i don't think you state that, you know, right according to the facts.

basically, we see that, mr romney, as you said, when war broke out foreign minister romney spoke at when war broke out, foreign minister romney spoke at the munich security conference and stated that any country, sovereignty, territorial integrity is respected. ukraine is no exception. and just recently, china's defence minister, we spoke at the shangri—la dialogue in singapore, basically saying that china does not provide any material military support to russia. but why can't you then, as a seniorfigure in beijing, why can't you simply, with me, outright condemn russia's military invasion of ukraine? just go ahead and do it right now. well, ithink, you know, the chinese governor said very strongly, i mean, the territorial integrity and sovereignty should be respected. that is basically... 0k. so, putin clearly hasn't respected it, so will you go a step further and say

here and now, china, here and now, "china, "i personally, mr wang, but china generally, "condemns vladimir putin's actions and we want to see "russia withdraw from ukrainian territory and respect "ukraine's sovereignty" ? ithink... i think the chinese government and also chinese people really want to see the end of this tragic, you know, very tragic war. and also that i think president xi has talked to president macron, chancellor scholz, and also, of course, president biden and including president putin, who really want to see this war to end. and that's a statement china has made many times. china wants to see a peaceful end to this. also, china wants the un, you know, we see the un secretary general was in moscow and kyiv and the foreign minister actually endorsed this visit and wants to see a peaceful and international mediation and also stop this war.

and so, there is no reason for china to want to see this war to the end. china has... 70% of its energy depends on the international import. this crisis is driving up the international energy costs and driving up the food cost. and we are seeing a danger coming up, actually, in the world. china is the largest economy of 130 countries on trade. so this is absolutely right, china wants to see the war to end. do you think beijing is actually worried that what putin has prompted with his invasion is a reinvigoration of the west's military alliance and the west's determination to stand up to authoritarianism, when it infringes the sovereignty of other countries? you know, we've seen unprecedented military support from the united states, from the europeans, to zelensky and the ukrainian government. i imagine in beijing people are watching that very closely. i imagine in beijing, people are watching that very closely. what chinese people

are very sympathetic with people in ukraine. china has donated humanitarian aid to ukraine and china's ambassador to ukraine said china will never attack ukraine. ukraine is a bilateral country with china. country with china, so we have a very good relationship. so, china has good relations with both ukraine and russia. and so, growth actually passes from ukraine. there's no reason for china to see this war. it's really no good to both ukraine and russia and to the world and particularly to china. so i think that china is really interested to see this crisis being resolved through international coordination. i talked about the reinvigoration of the west as a military alliance. there's also the degree to which western sanctions have proved to be extremely cohesive in some ways, in their attempt to isolate russia from the international financial system and the international economy. we've seen them use the swift banking system to isolate russia. and there's no doubt,

in the long run it's in the long run, it's really going to hurt the russian economy. is there a fear in beijing that, for example, if beijing were to take certain actions toward taiwan, you, too, could face that kind of economic isolation? well, i think this ukraine—russian conflict, actually, this crisis actually serves as a lesson for every country. i mean, we see what happened in europe. you know, a lot countries have been really at risk. you know, a lot of countries have been really at risk. now the military budget is up. the livelihood of the ordinary people has been affected. you know, inflation is running all—time high in four decades in the united states. you know, all the countries are facing crisis. we are facing a famine in africa coming up in the fall. so, this is very dangerous for the world. i mean, also, the military camps has been building up here and there, large and small... this is really driving the world in the wrong direction. we've been seeing the prosperity of globalisation the last seven and a half decades since the second world war.

we don't want to see a return to the, you know, �*30s and �*40s, where countries are really getting in a very dangerous position that we are having a war coming up. so, ithink, you know... no, i understand that. yeah. you're making a very interesting point there, i just wonder, if that's china's position, that you worry about increased tension in the world and you don't want more tension to be filtered into the geopolitics. why are some of your most senior officials, like your defence minister, saying, as he did just a short time ago, that beijing would fight to the very end for taiwan? this at a time when you're sending more fighterjets towards taiwan in a way which threatens the taiwanese government. at least they say it does. why are you doing all of that if china is absolutely

committed to reducing tensions? yeah, you're right. i mean, you see, actually, that's exactly the lesson we have at this moment with what's happening in ukraine and russia. that's. .. territorial integrity and sovereignty should be respected, and china is no exception. so we see what has happened. you know, there's a parade of navy ships, crews, you know, aircraft through the taiwan strait aircraft through the taiwan straitand south china sea. we don't see any chinese military ships in cuba or in hawaii or anywhere, but we see that paraded in front of china on a rapid basis. and then, there's a violation of the taiwan communique between china and the us government. and actually... well... ..there's more official contact, so china was basically responding, was pushed into the position. but china has said very correctly china will have to defend itself for independence... ..for its sovereignty and territorial integrity. if taiwan gets independence,

china will absolutely... there's an anti—secession act passed by the national people's congress. china will actually defend itself, absolutely. crosstalk. be explicit... yeah, be explicit with me. i'm just wondering, with your actions in taiwan, particularly some of the flight paths of your military aircraft, with your actions in, for example, the solomon islands, where you've signed a security pact, obviously, in an island nation right in the pacific ocean, some of your other actions, for example, militarising islands in the south china sea, some of your actions off the coast which the australian government takes as a direct threat to them — is all of this happening because you see america distracted with the ukraine war? what i see, actually, american... you know, their long arm

has been everywhere. i mean, now they're busy with the ukraine war, basically now becoming... ..providing all the heavy equipments and all the artillery and weaponry to ukraine to fight. america said, "till the last person of ukraine," which is unheard of. but then they still have time to build up arcas, build up crop, build up itf, so they still really want to contain china. so there's no logic of that, you know. and also, of course, as i said, all the response, all the chinese self—defence activities, was really triggered and actually pushed by the us in many ways. for example, there was a chinese/us communique that said, you know, there's no official contact, but then there's official contact on a regular basis. also, the military should be gradually reduced. now the military is increased from us side on this part of the world.

so why china cannot defend itself? and also, on the solomon islands, the south pacific, who said, you know, "can only us go there?" australia go there. china cannot. who can divide which part of territories belong to whom? but basically, china isjust going there to do the green and the sustainable development and maintain some local order... well... ..helping other countries on their request. yours is a very benign interpretation of china's intentions. but i think nobody would argue that, over the last five years, president xi has followed a very clear and determined strategy of projecting china's power in the world in a range of diverse ways, from soft power to economic power to sometimes military power. now, ijust wonder if, in the current economic climate in china, xi's strategy is sustainable — cos it costs a lot of money. and right now, there are signs of a serious slow—down

in the chinese economy. well, i think it's actually not... of course, this pandemic hit everybody, but china are probably the least hurt because we still maintained, last year, 8% gdp growth, and this year... well, excuse me, but last year, 8% growth. this year may well be down to 4% or, at best, 5% growth. and if you look at things like retail sales, the sales of new cars in china, the chinese consumer is withdrawing because they are clearly deeply concerned about the economic situation in your country right now. absolutely. i mean, there is concern. you know, i can understand that. but there's no problem, you know, because... china is experimenting a new way of fighting covid, you know, through the massive testing, and that's already maintained the minimum occurrence of the covid—i9. i think this is really...

only china can do that. but of course, the production and the manufacturing and the spending are picking up again. you know, alsojust for the last three months, first three months of this year, the foreign investment in china has hit a new high and they've become the most attractive place in the world now. so, i'm confident after... well... i think you're wearing your rose—tinted spectacles, if i may say so. if you look at a whole lot of corporates, from apple in the united states to a whole bunch of european companies, they are actually withdrawing investments from china because they see a new level of instability, instability because of their fears of a knock on from the of a knock—on from the isolation russia has been put under thanks to the ukraine war, but also fears that your covid policy in china — the draconian restrictions, the locking down of cities, the restriction of travel for weeks and months on end — it makes it impossible to do business in china. well, i think china actually is already getting out of this. shanghai's restoring

and beijing is doing fine. you know, there's caution because... who knows? we may have another big pandemic coming up. if next, there's a big wave of pandemic to come up, china was the best prepared country in the world because we have developed all this technology, green card, you know, passing code and also, of course, massive testing and minimum cases and at least interrupted production... of course, i think there's some price to pay. there's certainly cost. but this kind of learning curve, china is really cutting short. and i think china is now, you know, really bouncing back. so, if there is a next big wave of pandemic coming, you know — who knows what's next? a variant comes up — china would be the best. so, i think there is a... china's done this with a lot of experiment. i think the experiment china so far has done was very successful, first through the massive testing on a regular basis, so we can detect where is the outbreak of this virus and wipe it out immediately.

second, we have trained a large force of, you know, labs, medicalstaff and technology to deal with that. and also, third, technologically. everybody using his mobile phone can travel around... so, we don't really have a very serious situation here. for example, in beijing, there's only one case daily. that's unthinkable for 25 million citizens. so, this kind of technology, i think, works. but of course, we have two months of slowing down, but i'm sure it's going to quickly pick up and china will be doing fine. as i say, you're an optimist. but, henry wang, let me sort of get a bit deeper into what china's strategic vision is and what you think china's message to the world right now is, because one can look at the covid response... and there's no arguing with it, it was more draconian, i think, and it sort of sacrificed individual rights to collective zero tolerance in a way that we didn't see anywhere else in the world. but we also see other ways

in which the chinese vision of how to run a society involves mass surveillance. it involves credit scores being given to people for their obedience to the party line. and it involves locking up thousands of dissidents and political prisoners. in all honesty, as an advocate of an open china, a china that builds bridges to the rest of the world, do you think, right now, china is a model that people look at and want to emulate? well, i think china certainly is not perfect. china still have a lot of a way to go to improve itself. absolutely. but so far... i mean, if you look at the last four decades or five decades, china has been really doing very well, particularly, since it opened up. and china now... for the fourth decade, we've built up china into the second largest economy

and also lifted 800 million people out of poverty, representing 70% of a global poverty reduction, ten years ahead of a sustainable development goal, number one goal of... yeah, no, the economic achievement.... the economic achievement is stunning, stunning. but my question to you, as an advocate of a china open to the world, that is globalised and benefits from multilateral relationships, is that the china we actually see appears to be nationalist, protecting itself and frightened of the outside world. china certainly haven't expected, i think, this recent five, six years of drastic changing of — of course, particularly led by the us — these kind of hostile attitudes towards china. china is always a peace—loving country. china... for the last four decades, china never invaded any other country. china never colonised any places or sent troops anywhere.

china is really a peace—loving country by itself. thousands of years, china never actually go out of its pacific. so i think, you know, this kind of a situation is really...not really helping, not only for china but for the rest of world. china is a strong supporter of the globalisation. china really benefit largely of the globalisation system after the bretton woods system, which the us led that and the western countries actually benefit first and china benefit after that. so, i think we need to really improve that, we need to enhance that. but china now wants to make contributions. china never are saying that they're not really active participants. we are glad to see, recently, the wto ministerial meeting has achieved some great results. so, china, us and eu can work together. you know, we should really revive that spirit of cooperation. we are facing more serious dangers, like a pandemic, climate change and debt and famine and energy crisis. there's much more serious

issue that needs china, us and eu and many other countries to work together, rather than... we are obsessed with, you know, these ideological differences and also this kind of cold war mentality. and we really need some detente, actually, as i was talking to neil ferguson just two days ago. dr kissinger actually said, "we're at the foothill of the cold war." we need to avoid that. we really need to revive the peaceful spirit. henry wang, i thank you so much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much. thank you, stephen.

hello there. over the past few days, we've seen temperatures rising, and on wednesday, temperatures reached 28 celsius in london. and here in aboyne, aberdeenshire, 26 celsius was the warmest day of the year so far in scotland. the next few days will turn cooler, temperatures will be dropping — it's turning more unsettled. we've got more rain in the forecast, as well. now, we still have some cloud in the north and northwest of scotland, but it's the cloud in france that we need to keep a close eye on — that's been producing some thundery downpours, and that will trigger some more showers as we head through thursday. especially early on through the channel islands, in the english channel, and then, we'll see those showers developing and moving further north into england and wales. some of them will be heavy and thundery. there'll still be some warm sunshine around, as well. and scotland and northern ireland may well have a dry day, with some sunny spells and a lighter wind. not quite as warm as it was on wednesday in eastern scotland. a very warm day across england and wales despite those showers

— probably the highest temperatures ahead of those showers across north midlands and northern england. the weather's changing because pressure is falling, and that means we're likely to find more cloud, and we'll find some more rain, as well, particularly on that weather front approaching the southwest. ahead of that, though, there will be some sunshine around, but we're going to find more showers breaking out — and those turning heavy and thundery in the afternoon, especially across northern england, heading into scotland. this band of rain arrives in parts of wales and the southwest of england, and with more cloud around, temperatures will be lower, typically 20—22 celsius. the last of the warm weather probably stuck across east anglia. heading into the weekend, and rather than high pressure dominating the weather, it'll be low pressure swirling around to the west of the uk. so, looking at the details for saturday, and we're looking at most of the wet weather across the western side of the uk with more showers breaking out through the day. there will still be some sunshine, but we may see the cloud thickening, threatening some rain across the southeast of england and east anglia. temperatures are looking

like this, round about 19—21 celsius. cooler i think in northern ireland, could be quite wet here close to that area of low pressure. and again, it'll be northern and western areas that see most of the rain, could be heavy and thundery in places. further east through the midlands and across eastern england, it may well be dry on sunday. that's where we'll find the highest temperatures. it will be cooler in the wetter weather in the west.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm arunoday mukharji. the headlines: a powerful earthquake kills more than 1,000 people in afghanistan. the taliban appeal for international help. the scale of this disaster is hard to comprehend. whole villages have been flattened. this is just the start of this crisis. as russian forces advance on the remaining ukrainian held towns in the donbas, wejoin a group of volunteers trying to evacuate civilians from the area. anotherfamily another family has just been loaded into the truck. another family saying goodbye to their home and their lives.

a stark warning from the head of the international energy