with sir paul mccartney as the saturday night headliner. now on bbc news, the media show. hello, welcome to the media show. the uk's media regulator ofcom has published a major review of what the bbc does, particularly focused on three areas, how the bbc deals with complaints, how they approach impartiality, and how they define the services it offers people in the uk. needless to say, how the bbc takes the advice of the regulator, how the regulator shapes the future of the bbc, directly impact on

everyone who consumes its content and also interacts with it as an institution. let's understand first about more about what ofcom wants. let's hear from about more about what ofcom wants. let's hearfrom kevin bakhurst, group director of contact —— content and media policy. you sounded underwhelmed as to how the bbc explains itself, tell us why. i think we feel the bbc should absolutely strive all the time to explain itself to audiences and viewers and also to be transparent to the audiences who pay their licence fee, and also to the rest of the creative industries around the uk about what it his planning and how it is approaching programming, how it is approaching programming, how it is delivering its mission, ofcom's role is to make sure the bbc delivers what parliament has hit out, which is its public purposes,

delivering accurate impartial news, learning content that is creative and distinctive, secondly we have a role which is probably better known, security content standards on af and the bbc, and the third is we have to make sure everything the bbc does is carefully considered in terms of impact on competitors, so we start from that point.— impact on competitors, so we start from that point. before we meet our other guests. _ from that point. before we meet our other guests, let's _ from that point. before we meet our other guests, let's get _ from that point. before we meet our other guests, let's get into - from that point. before we meet our other guests, let's get into some - other guests, let's get into some specifics, so everyone can understand what ofcom is asking of the bbc. you mention impartiality, one of the three points of emphasis, where is the bbc getting it wrong? is itjust not explaining how it is going about impartiality well enough? i going about impartiality well enou~h? ~ �* �* going about impartiality well enou~h? ~' �* �* .,, going about impartiality well enou~h? ~' �* �* ., going about impartiality well enou~h? ~' “ ., ., enough? i think the bbc has got a re enough? i think the bbc has got a pretty good _ enough? i think the bbc has got a pretty good track _ enough? i think the bbc has got a pretty good track record _ enough? i think the bbc has got a pretty good track record of - pretty good track record of complying with the broadcasting code on delivering impartial content. but the director—general has made it

clear that that the bbc needs to do better and we would agree, we did a lot of research as part of this review at audiences rate the bbc highly for trust and accuracy. but they write it considerably lower for delivering impartial content. we feel the bbc needs to focus on ways of delivering that, and critically explaining how it delivers impartial content. fire explaining how it delivers impartial content. �* explaining how it delivers impartial content. �* “ explaining how it delivers impartial content. “ ., content. are you asking the bbc to chan . e content. are you asking the bbc to change the — content. are you asking the bbc to change the content _ content. are you asking the bbc to change the content it _ content. are you asking the bbc to change the content it is _ content. are you asking the bbc to change the content it is making - content. are you asking the bbc to change the content it is making so | change the content it is making so it is more impartial or are you asking the bbc to explain how it is making its content impartial? i think it is more the letter, explaining how it is making its content impartial and also explaining where there are contentious issues around impartiality, how it deals with those and how it has been trying to achieve impartiality. that those and how it has been trying to achieve impartiality.— achieve impartiality. that leads us onto the second _ achieve impartiality. that leads us onto the second point _ achieve impartiality. that leads us onto the second point of - achieve impartiality. that leads us. onto the second point of emphasis, complaints, because people complain about the bbc for a range of reasons

but one of them can be connected to impartiality. help me understand, what is the bbc getting right and what is the bbc getting right and what do you want it to do better? the way audiences complain to the bbc, which was decided by parliament, they need to complain to the bbc first before they come to ofcom, the bbc has an opportunity to deal with that, if oddities are not happy with how the bbc deals with it, they can come to us —— if the audience are not happy. we have intervened already on this over the last years, the bbc is not open and transparent enough and how it deals with complaints, the type of completed gates, and in particular where it is dealing with complaints around due equity and impartiality which are critical to is news provision, it should explain more when it doesn't uphold complaints. let me ask you about the third focus of ofcom, the services that the bbc provides. i understand you are looking for a change to the

operating licence with a more explicit reference to online services provided. can you explain to our listeners what the operating licence is and what you would like the bbc to commit to it in terms of online services?— online services? sure. we are reuuired online services? sure. we are required to — online services? sure. we are required to set _ online services? sure. we are required to set an _ online services? sure. we are required to set an operating l online services? sure. we are - required to set an operating licence for the bbc which is four key areas, how they deliver for audiences, the amount of use for example on various services, current affairs, a range of other programming. across tv and radio, largely so far, our view was that as audience has —— audiences have moved online, the operating licence needs to reflect what the bbc does across all its services. you are looking for a shift in the bbc�*s commitments and a reimagining of how that is measured? these are the three points of emphasis from ofcom today, kevin bakhurst will stay with us, he is group director of content at ofcom, but it's

bringing three guests to evaluate how ofcom is communicating with the bbc today. owen meredith, chief executive of the news media association, representing uk national, regionaland association, representing uk national, regional and local newspapers in print and digital form, we wanted to speak to you because the nma made, you approached ofcom with thoughts on this review, what did you tell them?— what did you tell them? firstly, thank ou what did you tell them? firstly, thank you for— what did you tell them? firstly, thank you for having _ what did you tell them? firstly, thank you for having me - what did you tell them? firstly, thank you for having me on, - what did you tell them? firstly, thank you for having me on, it i what did you tell them? firstly, | thank you for having me on, it is what did you tell them? firstly, i thank you for having me on, it is a pleasure — thank you for having me on, it is a pleasure we _ thank you for having me on, it is a pleasure. we are primarily have concerns — pleasure. we are primarily have concerns around the bbc's digital approach — concerns around the bbc's digital approach to news and the way it publishes — approach to news and the way it publishes in written format news on the bbc_ publishes in written format news on the bbc website and how that interact— the bbc website and how that interact with the commercial sector. clearly _ interact with the commercial sector. clearly there has been many reviews, government— clearly there has been many reviews, government commissioned reviews, primarily— government commissioned reviews, primarily since that look at the sustainability of the press and independent press in this country,

which _ independent press in this country, which is _ independent press in this country, which is vitally important for all of us, _ which is vitally important for all of us, to— which is vitally important for all of us, to society and democracy at the core _ of us, to society and democracy at the core of— of us, to society and democracy at the core of it. clearly having the bbc as— the core of it. clearly having the bbc as a — the core of it. clearly having the bbc as a taxpayer funded organisation competing in the digital— organisation competing in the digital space with commercial publishers is presenting a serious challenge — publishers is presenting a serious challenge to the ability of commercial publishers to monetise commercialised and therefore sustain their business models in that environment. we presented ofcom as part of— environment. we presented ofcom as part of this _ environment. we presented ofcom as part of this review a number of issues — part of this review a number of issues around that and how we think the bbc_ issues around that and how we think the bbc could be a better partner to help sustain the commercial new sector— help sustain the commercial new sector which i think is in all of our interest in the long run. let's consider this _ our interest in the long run. let's consider this issue _ our interest in the long run. let's consider this issue of _ our interest in the long run. let�*s consider this issue of services, isn't it the case that the nma was concerned about the bbc having any news product in the digital arena if you years back? do you fundamentally see and issue with the bbc operating in this space? the see and issue with the bbc operating in this space?— see and issue with the bbc operating in this space?— in this space? the bbc is perfectly entitled to have _ in this space? the bbc is perfectly entitled to have a _ in this space? the bbc is perfectly entitled to have a digital— in this space? the bbc is perfectly entitled to have a digital presence| entitled to have a digital presence and a _ entitled to have a digital presence

and a digital presence in news, i think— and a digital presence in news, i think where the parameters need to be discussed and negotiated between the commercial sector and bbc is exactly— the commercial sector and bbc is exactly the scope and scale of that. currently _ exactly the scope and scale of that. currently the bbc is the largest news _ currently the bbc is the largest news website in the uk, that is not what _ news website in the uk, that is not what the _ news website in the uk, that is not what the bbc was set up to be and of course _ what the bbc was set up to be and of course as— what the bbc was set up to be and of course as consumer habits have changed — course as consumer habits have changed and the way that we all discover— changed and the way that we all discover news, the bbc plays a role in that _ discover news, the bbc plays a role in that new — discover news, the bbc plays a role in that new ecosystem. a need to make _ in that new ecosystem. a need to make sure — in that new ecosystem. a need to make sure it doesn't crowd out the commercial— make sure it doesn't crowd out the commercial sector. —— eight needs to. commercial sector. -- eight needs to. ., , commercial sector. -- eight needs to. ., _ commercial sector. -- eight needs to. ., ~.,_ ., commercial sector. -- eight needs to. ., ., ,, , to. roger mosey, master of selwyn colle . e, to. roger mosey, master of selwyn college, former _ to. roger mosey, master of selwyn college, former head _ to. roger mosey, master of selwyn college, former head of _ to. roger mosey, master of selwyn college, former head of tv - to. roger mosey, master of selwyn college, former head of tv news i to. roger mosey, master of selwyn college, former head of tv news atj college, former head of tv news at the bbc, former director of bbc sport, and alice enders, director of research at enders analysis carrying out independent research on the media. roger, isn't it inevitable that the bbc�*s remit has to change, it has to evolve the counter products that it offers? not something to criticise is it? ida. products that it offers? not something to criticise is it? no, i think it is good _ something to criticise is it? no, i think it is good that _ something to criticise is it? no, i think it is good that the - something to criticise is it? no, i

think it is good that the bbc- something to criticise is it? no, i think it is good that the bbc so | think it is good that the bbc so many— think it is good that the bbc so many digital— think it is good that the bbc so many digital platforms - think it is good that the bbc so many digital platforms becausej think it is good that the bbc so | many digital platforms because it gives— many digital platforms because it gives you — many digital platforms because it gives you good _ many digital platforms because it gives you good strong _ many digital platforms because it gives you good strong impartial. many digital platforms because it - gives you good strong impartial news that. gives you good strong impartial news that it _ gives you good strong impartial news that it is _ gives you good strong impartial news that it is a _ gives you good strong impartial news that it is a hit — gives you good strong impartial news that. it is a bit of— gives you good strong impartial news that. it is a bit of a _ gives you good strong impartial news that. it is a bit of a red _ gives you good strong impartial news that. it is a bit of a red herring - that. it is a bit of a red herring to say— that. it is a bit of a red herring to say that _ that. it is a bit of a red herring to say that the _ that. it is a bit of a red herring to say that the bbc _ that. it is a bit of a red herring to say that the bbc is - that. it is a bit of a red herring. to say that the bbc is responsible for the _ to say that the bbc is responsible for the troubles— to say that the bbc is responsible for the troubles of— to say that the bbc is responsible for the troubles of the _ to say that the bbc is responsiblel for the troubles of the commercial sector— for the troubles of the commercial sector which— for the troubles of the commercial sector which are _ for the troubles of the commercial sector which are actually _ for the troubles of the commercial sector which are actually true - sector which are actually true worldwide. _ sector which are actually true worldwide, the _ sector which are actually true worldwide, the bbc- sector which are actually true worldwide, the bbc doesn't l sector which are actually true - worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america _ worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america and — worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america and yet _ worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america and yet there _ worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america and yet there is _ worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america and yet there is all - worldwide, the bbc doesn't exist in america and yet there is all that. america and yet there is all that pressure — america and yet there is all that pressure on _ america and yet there is all that pressure on local— america and yet there is all that pressure on local media. - america and yet there is all that pressure on local media. i- america and yet there is all that. pressure on local media. i certainly find looking — pressure on local media. i certainly find looking at _ pressure on local media. i certainly find looking at some _ pressure on local media. i certainly find looking at some of _ pressure on local media. i certainly find looking at some of the - pressure on local media. i certainly find looking at some of the local. find looking at some of the local media _ find looking at some of the local media websites _ find looking at some of the local media websites are _ find looking at some of the local media websites are used - find looking at some of the local media websites are used to - find looking at some of the local media websites are used to on, | find looking at some of the local- media websites are used to on, they are really— media websites are used to on, they are really thin — media websites are used to on, they are really thin and _ media websites are used to on, they are really thin and not _ media websites are used to on, they are really thin and not really - media websites are used to on, they are really thin and not really there . are really thin and not really there any proper— are really thin and not really there any proper form _ are really thin and not really there any proper form these _ are really thin and not really there any proper form these days, - are really thin and not really there any proper form these days, so. are really thin and not really there l any proper form these days, so the bbc, _ any proper form these days, so the bbc, i_ any proper form these days, so the bbc, ithink— any proper form these days, so the bbc, i think it _ any proper form these days, so the bbc, ithink it is— any proper form these days, so the bbc, i think it is good _ any proper form these days, so the bbc, i think it is good for— any proper form these days, so the bbc, i think it is good for local- bbc, i think it is good for local democracy— bbc, i think it is good for local democracy and _ bbc, i think it is good for local democracy and national- bbc, i think it is good for local- democracy and national discourse. alice, _ democracy and national discourse. alice as _ democracy and national discourse. alice, as someone _ democracy and national discourse. alice, as someone who _ democracy and national discourse. alice, as someone who analyses . democracy and national discourse. - alice, as someone who analyses these things, how do you assess the bbc�*s impact on newspapers at a local and national level?— national level? here i think i will echo roger. _ national level? here i think i will echo roger, while _ national level? here i think i will echo roger, while i _ national level? here i think i will echo roger, while i will- national level? here i think i will echo roger, while i will also - echo roger, while i will also recognise owen's point about friction with the commercial sector. we see this as not being a zero—sum

game online. we see consumers multi—homing, the view thatjust because the bbc exists that means they will not consult local media sites, that they will not consult mail online, which is a huge presence in the uk, is in our view not quite correct. i agree with roger that the commercial sustainability is also very important but i do not see the bbc as being the cause of the problems there, print has always been more attractive as a commercial product and digital stop digital yields are much lower, it is very difficult for digital media sites to cover the cost of local media, newsgathering,

with online advertising, and that is true all the world. the solution in our view, the presence of the bbc at the heart of news and current affairs supply is extremely important because it is independent of commercial concerns. keein of commercial concerns. kevin bakhurst, _ of commercial concerns. kevin bakhurst. as _ of commercial concerns. kevin bakhurst, as you _ of commercial concerns. kevin bakhurst, as you listen - of commercial concerns. kevin bakhurst, as you listen to - of commercial concerns. kevin l bakhurst, as you listen to these three perspectives, where does ofcom fit into this? how do you view where the limits of the bbc�*s digital activity should be, particularly in the context of news? i think this is one of the toughest areas, it is something we have been talking to something we have been talking tr: colleagues about, there is, as roger says, gaps around the uk in terms of local reporting and regional reporting, and frankly a little political pressure from around the uk for the bbc to step into those gaps and serve audiences around the

uk. on other hand, it is fair to say we are constantly talking to the bbc about how they could have more effective and better partnerships with local media, as there are existing partnerships and how they could build on things like local democracy scheme which they have been successfully running, those are ongoing discussions. it is the hardest conundrum for the bbc but also for the regulator. one of our other duties is about media polarity, criticalfor other duties is about media polarity, critical for all audiences.— polarity, critical for all audiences. polarity, criticalfor all audiences. , ., , �* �* audiences. the question is where bbc fits into that, — audiences. the question is where bbc fits into that, whether _ audiences. the question is where bbc fits into that, whether it _ audiences. the question is where bbc fits into that, whether it is _ fits into that, whether it is supporting clarity and where it is constraining it. on today's show, we are looking to ofcom's suggestions for the bbc, particularly through three points of emphasis. we talked about bbc services and how they should be defied and how they need to be limited in some circumstances, next let's talk about complaints, because ofcom is focused on this and how the bbc deals with complaints. roger, let me bring you in, used to

be seen at the bbc for many years, doesn't lots of complaints come with the territory of running the bbc and it is perhaps not a surprise it should be on the receiving end of quite a few of them?— should be on the receiving end of quite a few of them? yes, the bbc's size and scale _ quite a few of them? yes, the bbc's size and scale music _ quite a few of them? yes, the bbc's size and scale music gets _ quite a few of them? yes, the bbc's size and scale music gets lots - quite a few of them? yes, the bbc's size and scale music gets lots of- size and scale music gets lots of complaints, when i was in use i hated _ complaints, when i was in use i hated regulators and i hated complaints processes and thought on how we _ complaints processes and thought on how we should just get on with the 'ob. how we should 'ust get on with the 'ob. , ., , ., how we should 'ust get on with the 'ob. i. , ., ., , job. kevin, did you use to feel way? yes, a little — job. kevin, did you use to feel way? yes, a little bit, _ job. kevin, did you use to feel way? yes, a little bit, to _ job. kevin, did you use to feel way? yes, a little bit, to be _ job. kevin, did you use to feel way? yes, a little bit, to be fair. - job. kevin, did you use to feel way? yes, a little bit, to be fair. i - yes, a little bit, to be fair. i have switched sides now. hoist yes, a little bit, to be fair. i have switched sides now. now i'm outside the _ have switched sides now. now i'm outside the bbc, _ have switched sides now. now i'm outside the bbc, you _ have switched sides now. now i'm outside the bbc, you see - outside the bbc, you see accountability is really important, it is very— accountability is really important, it is very crucial for the bbc that it is very crucial for the bbc that it is very crucial for the bbc that it is accountable. it is rather battered _ it is accountable. it is rather battered to accountability, the complaints process is complicated, -- rather— complaints process is complicated, —— rather bad at accountability. i made _ —— rather bad at accountability. i made one — —— rather bad at accountability. i made one complete in eight years, you get— made one complete in eight years, you get stuck in this labyrinth of not being — you get stuck in this labyrinth of not being able to work out that you -ot not being able to work out that you got anyone — not being able to work out that you got anyone to acknowledge that there was a _ got anyone to acknowledge that there was a genuine issue. the

got anyone to acknowledge that there was a genuine issue.— was a genuine issue. the bbc would sa there's was a genuine issue. the bbc would say there's a — was a genuine issue. the bbc would say there's a point _ was a genuine issue. the bbc would say there's a point of— was a genuine issue. the bbc would say there's a point of contact - was a genuine issue. the bbc would say there's a point of contact and i say there's a point of contact and the complaint is logged any set out timeframe, you receive a reply, the mar —— vast amount of people do. i think what kevin is getting at is there _ think what kevin is getting at is there is— think what kevin is getting at is there is a — think what kevin is getting at is there is a broader accountability about— there is a broader accountability about the — there is a broader accountability about the bbc about issues like brekit— about the bbc about issues like brexit or— about the bbc about issues like brexit or the it covered a pandemic, and the _ brexit or the it covered a pandemic, and the thinking about some key issues _ and the thinking about some key issues which illuminate that, we never_ issues which illuminate that, we never hear— issues which illuminate that, we never hear from the bbc, so i do not know— never hear from the bbc, so i do not know how— never hear from the bbc, so i do not know how the bbc thinks it covers the pandemic or brexit, there are all those — the pandemic or brexit, there are all those things that can illuminate and on _ all those things that can illuminate and on the — all those things that can illuminate and on the whole they don't. i ithrill and on the whole they don't. i will not take a — and on the whole they don't. i will not take a full— and on the whole they don't. i will not take a full brexit _ and on the whole they don't. i will not take a full brexit data - and on the whole they don't. ito ii. not take a full brexit data but and on the whole they don't. in ii. not take a full brexit data but i have several quotes from various directors of bbc news on exactly how they feel the bbc covers brexit, it has talked about that, but when the broader issue of complaints, use a statement from the bbc, we didn't write the bbc onto the programme but they sent us a statement, part of it read the bbc has transparent complaints process in the uk, we will work with

ofcom to make further improvements. given that the bbc already has commitments in place to deal with complaints, is there a risk that complaints, is there a risk that complaints being made by ofcom and kevin and his colleagues place a further burden or workload on the bbc when perhaps it is better off working out how to take on all its media competitors?— working out how to take on all its media competitors? here i think i auree media competitors? here i think i aaree with media competitors? here i think i agree with kevin _ media competitors? here i think i agree with kevin at _ media competitors? here i think i agree with kevin at ofcom, - media competitors? here i think i agree with kevin at ofcom, which| media competitors? here i think i i agree with kevin at ofcom, which is the research shows that the complaints process is not well—known, that many people in the uk think of complaining but do not complain because they do not know how to complain. and that is really striking, because as kevin will tell you, ofcom has only dealt with two complaints since 2019 and they didn't concern impartiality, media bias and so on. i think the issue is

lack of knowledge. help bias and so on. i think the issue is lack of knowledge.— bias and so on. i think the issue is lack of knowledge. help me dig into the detail here, _ lack of knowledge. help me dig into the detail here, kevin, _ lack of knowledge. help me dig into the detail here, kevin, you - lack of knowledge. help me dig into the detail here, kevin, you are - the detail here, kevin, you are making the request, if i google now, bbc complaints, i will easily end up in a page which says, what would you like to say to us? the problem presumably is not that but what happens after that?— happens after that? yes, our research _ happens after that? yes, our research says _ happens after that? yes, our research says audiences - happens after that? yes, our research says audiences can | happens after that? yes, our- research says audiences can google and found _ research says audiences can google and found their way inadequately and they approve of that, and by the way in general— they approve of that, and by the way in general they approve of bbc as the right— in general they approve of bbc as the right way to deal with complaints. but once they get into that system, they get lost and as roger— that system, they get lost and as roger said, it is labyrinthine for audiences, _ roger said, it is labyrinthine for audiences, they are not quite sure where _ audiences, they are not quite sure where they— audiences, they are not quite sure where they are, they don't like the tone of— where they are, they don't like the tone of land which they get in response _ tone of land which they get in response from the bbc. many of them -- tone _ response from the bbc. many of them -- tone of— response from the bbc. many of them —— tone of language. the bbc said, it is a _ —— tone of language. the bbc said, it is a measure of our success that people _ it is a measure of our success that people do— it is a measure of our success that people do not come through ofcom

that much, — people do not come through ofcom that much, don't come to ofcom because — that much, don't come to ofcom because they give up with the complaints process and don't understand where they are a how to advance _ understand where they are a how to advance. the understand where they are a how to advance. �* �* ., , understand where they are a how to advance. �* �* . , , advance. the bbc has defended its com - laint advance. the bbc has defended its complaint process _ advance. the bbc has defended its complaint process but _ advance. the bbc has defended its complaint process but says - advance. the bbc has defended its complaint process but says it - advance. the bbc has defended its complaint process but says it is - complaint process but says it is willing to work further with you to make... ., , willing to work further with you to make... . _ ., ., willing to work further with you to make... . ., ., , make... can i say, i am not sure it is always— make... can i say, i am not sure it is always that _ make... can i say, i am not sure it is always that the _ make... can i say, i am not sure it is always that the bbc _ make... can i say, i am not sure it is always that the bbc is _ make... can i say, i am not sure it is always that the bbc is more - is always that the bbc is more transparent than other broadcasters, they are _ transparent than other broadcasters, they are the only one who see £5 billion— they are the only one who see £5 billion of— they are the only one who see £5 billion of public money, is not always— billion of public money, is not always really helpful that the kneejerk is we are already doing a billyi'oh. — kneejerk is we are already doing a billyi'oh. it— kneejerk is we are already doing a billyjob, it is better some time to look at _ billyjob, it is better some time to look at the — billyjob, it is better some time to look at the evidence which is what we do _ look at the evidence which is what we do as— look at the evidence which is what we do as an — look at the evidence which is what we do as an independent regulator —— brilliant _ we do as an independent regulator —— hrillianti'oh _ we do as an independent regulator -- brilliant job-— brilliant 'ob. they have said they will brilliant job. they have said they will work with _ brilliant job. they have said they will work with ofcom, _ brilliant job. they have said they will work with ofcom, i - brilliant job. they have said they will work with ofcom, i imagine | brilliant job. they have said they i will work with ofcom, i imagine you will work with ofcom, i imagine you will have further conversations with the bbc. there are three areas we're looking at, services, complete, now let's consider impartiality. we have heard from ofcom's chief executive saying the bbc clearly needs to address widespread perceptions about its impartiality. owen meredith from the news media association, do you

agree there is a perception issue for the bbc?— agree there is a perception issue for the bbc? , , ., , , for the bbc? yes, it is not my place to usually comment _ for the bbc? yes, it is not my place to usually comment on _ for the bbc? yes, it is not my place to usually comment on this - for the bbc? yes, it is not my place to usually comment on this but - for the bbc? yes, it is not my place | to usually comment on this but there is a perception problem. i to usually comment on this but there is a perception problem.— is a perception problem. i wonder if it is aaivin is a perception problem. i wonder if it is giving your _ is a perception problem. i wonder if it is giving your members _ is a perception problem. i wonder if it is giving your members are - it is giving your members are responsible partly for that perception because many newspapers have plenty to say about what the bbc is and isn't doing. flit have plenty to say about what the bbc is and isn't doing.— bbc is and isn't doing. of course, newspapers _ bbc is and isn't doing. of course, newspapers are — bbc is and isn't doing. of course, newspapers are free _ bbc is and isn't doing. of course, newspapers are free to _ bbc is and isn't doing. of course, newspapers are free to take - bbc is and isn't doing. of course, newspapers are free to take their| newspapers are free to take their own editorial line, i represent the publishing industry in businesses that publish those newspapers, not the editorial line they choose to take, which individual editors do. but do you think the way the bbc positions itself, relevant to your industry, is impacted negatively by perceptions it is not as impartial as it ought to be? i perceptions it is not as impartial as it ought to be?— as it ought to be? i think this artl as it ought to be? i think this partly goes — as it ought to be? i think this partly goes back— as it ought to be? i think this partly goes back to _ as it ought to be? i think this partly goes back to our - as it ought to be? i think this partly goes back to our widerj partly goes back to our wider argument, if the bbc focused on a core service delivering news and not overstretching its ambitions into analysis, comment and opinion which i think it often strays into... i am

auoin to i think it often strays into... i am going to enter— i think it often strays into... i am going to enter up. _ i think it often strays into... i am going to enter up, my _ i think it often strays into... i am going to enter up, my job - i think it often strays into... i am going to enter up, myjob title is analysis editorfor bbc going to enter up, myjob title is analysis editor for bbc news, we do analysis editor for bbc news, we do analysis as well as reporting, that is part ofjournalism, notjust saying something has happened but explaining white house consequence. of explaining white house consequence. of course, but that is where the impartiality issues arise. == of course, but that is where the impartiality issues arise. -- why it has consequence. _ impartiality issues arise. -- why it has consequence. i _ impartiality issues arise. -- why it has consequence. i think- impartiality issues arise. -- why it has consequence. i think it - impartiality issues arise. -- why it has consequence. i think it goes l has consequence. i think it goes back in early _ has consequence. i think it goes back in early argument - has consequence. i think it goes back in early argument that - has consequence. i think it goes back in early argument that if i has consequence. i think it goes | back in early argument that if the bbc worked better in partnership with the commercial sector, just to pick up on roger park comment, i do not see the bbc as the full problem by any means in terms of sustainability of the wider sector, but the bbc these to be a better partner to the industry.- but the bbc these to be a better partner to the industry. roger, i am interested in — partner to the industry. roger, i am interested in this _ partner to the industry. roger, i am interested in this idea _ partner to the industry. roger, i am interested in this idea that - partner to the industry. roger, i am interested in this idea that the - partner to the industry. roger, i am interested in this idea that the bbc| interested in this idea that the bbc has a perception problem, that is ofcom saying that, if there is one, who is responsible for that if the bbc is being impartial? does it still need to respond to the fact that it has a perception problem,

whether that is fair or not? yes. that it has a perception problem, whether that is fair or not? yes, i do not think— whether that is fair or not? yes, i do not think there _ whether that is fair or not? yes, i do not think there is _ whether that is fair or not? yes, i do not think there is a _ whether that is fair or not? yes, i do not think there is a crisis - whether that is fair or not? yes, i do not think there is a crisis but l do not think there is a crisis but certainly— do not think there is a crisis but certainly a — do not think there is a crisis but certainly a set of challenges. i have _ certainly a set of challenges. i have literallyjust written a book about _ have literallyjust written a book about this, the whole question of impartiality and how it is tackled any modern digital age is one that tim davie — any modern digital age is one that tim davie has said there is problems, so the bbc does believe there _ problems, so the bbc does believe there is— problems, so the bbc does believe there is a _ problems, so the bbc does believe there is a problem, and when you refer— there is a problem, and when you refer back— there is a problem, and when you refer back to brexit and the bbc making — refer back to brexit and the bbc making statements, i would like some accountability and examination and all we _ accountability and examination and all we see — accountability and examination and all we see in the annual report is brexit— all we see in the annual report is brexit coverage was marvellous answer — brexit coverage was marvellous answer within 2019 general election coverage _ answer within 2019 general election coverage, and my question is, was it? if— coverage, and my question is, was it? if you _ coverage, and my question is, was it? if you believe public service matters, — it? if you believe public service matters, as i do, you have to make it better _ matters, as i do, you have to make it better add — matters, as i do, you have to make it better add the bbc is supposed to be not _ it better add the bbc is supposed to be notjust— it better add the bbc is supposed to be notjust where it better add the bbc is supposed to be not just where the market it better add the bbc is supposed to be notjust where the market is, it is supposed — be notjust where the market is, it is supposed to be better than the market — is supposed to be better than the market. , ., ., is supposed to be better than the market. ., ., , , market. ok, so what does better look like? let's get — market. ok, so what does better look like? let's get into _ market. ok, so what does better look like? let's get into the _ market. ok, so what does better look like? let's get into the detail, - like? let's get into the detail, what does bbcjournalism and content

need to do to demonstrate its impartiality?— need to do to demonstrate its imartiali ? , ., ., , impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons. _ impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons, one _ impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons, one at _ impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons, one at times - impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons, one at times it - impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons, one at times it is - impartiality? there is a whole set of reasons, one at times it is too | of reasons, one at times it is too much _ of reasons, one at times it is too much robotic balance, someone says this, someone says that, what people want is _ this, someone says that, what people want is the _ this, someone says that, what people want is the kind of analysis that you are — want is the kind of analysis that you are doing, picking that apart and saying — you are doing, picking that apart and saying where is the truth? it is also the _ and saying where is the truth? it is also the case that the bbc has had liberal— also the case that the bbc has had liberal tendencies over the years which _ liberal tendencies over the years which makes some audiences sceptical but equally— which makes some audiences sceptical but equally we are in a world where fierce _ but equally we are in a world where fierce partisans are alienated by anything — fierce partisans are alienated by anything that is public service broadcasting. the question is, how does _ broadcasting. the question is, how does public— broadcasting. the question is, how does public service rebuild itself? the idea — does public service rebuild itself? the idea that the bbc leans to the left is one that is often mentioned and yet lots of colleagues have left the bbc to go and work for little parties on the right—hand side of the political spectrum as well as the political spectrum as well as the left. but you mentioned politics, let's bring that end, alice enders, you can help me, nadine dorries has been treated or

ofcom has had to say and she says being open, transparent and impartial is vital to the bbc maintaining trust. the bbc must significantly improve its handling of complaints, ofcom's report will feed into the bbc mid—term review as our national broadcaster, it must deliver for its audiences. is our national broadcaster, it must deliverfor its audiences. is it inevitable with ofcom intended or not that this review becomes instantly political? it is inevitable, _ instantly political? it is inevitable, but - instantly political? it is inevitable, but i - instantly political? it is inevitable, but i would| instantly political? it is - inevitable, but i would like instantly political? it is inevitable, but i would like to add to the _ inevitable, but i would like to add to the comment _ inevitable, but i would like to add to the comment that _ inevitable, but i would like to add to the comment that we - inevitable, but i would like to add to the comment that we are - inevitable, but i would like to add j to the comment that we are living inevitable, but i would like to add i to the comment that we are living in a very— to the comment that we are living in a very opinionated _ to the comment that we are living in a very opinionated and _ to the comment that we are living in a very opinionated and polarised - a very opinionated and polarised environment, _ a very opinionated and polarised environment, that— a very opinionated and polarised environment, that certainly- a very opinionated and polarised environment, that certainly is. environment, that certainly is finding — environment, that certainly is finding -- _ environment, that certainly is finding -- a _ environment, that certainly is finding —— a finding _ environment, that certainly is finding —— a finding that- environment, that certainly is. finding —— a finding that ofcom might— finding —— a finding that ofcom might have _ finding —— a finding that ofcom might have highlighted - finding —— a finding that ofcom might have highlighted more i finding —— a finding that ofcom - might have highlighted more today. in might have highlighted more today. in that _ might have highlighted more today. in that context, _ might have highlighted more today. in that context, if— might have highlighted more today. in that context, if a _ might have highlighted more today. in that context, if a person - might have highlighted more today. in that context, if a person doesn'tl in that context, if a person doesn't see their— in that context, if a person doesn't see their opinion— in that context, if a person doesn't see their opinion reflected, - in that context, if a person doesn't see their opinion reflected, they. see their opinion reflected, they viewed — see their opinion reflected, they viewed that— see their opinion reflected, they viewed that as _ see their opinion reflected, they viewed that as an _ see their opinion reflected, they viewed that as an issue - see their opinion reflected, they viewed that as an issue of - viewed that as an issue of impartiality _ viewed that as an issue of impartiality. sitting - viewed that as an issue of impartiality. sitting on. viewed that as an issue of| impartiality. sitting on the viewed that as an issue of - impartiality. sitting on the fence in a funny—

impartiality. sitting on the fence in a funny way, _ impartiality. sitting on the fence in a funny way, is _ impartiality. sitting on the fence in a funny way, is taking - impartiality. sitting on the fence in a funny way, is taking a - in a funny way, is taking a position. _ in a funny way, is taking a position, that _ in a funny way, is taking a position, that is _ in a funny way, is taking a position, that is what - in a funny way, is taking a i position, that is what many in a funny way, is taking a - position, that is what many people believe _ position, that is what many people believe and — position, that is what many people believe. and you _ position, that is what many people believe. and you see _ position, that is what many people believe. and you see this- position, that is what many people believe. and you see this in- believe. and you see this in commercial— believe. and you see this in commercial radio, - believe. and you see this in commercial radio, which . believe. and you see this in commercial radio, which isl believe. and you see this in. commercial radio, which is far believe. and you see this in- commercial radio, which is far more opinionated — commercial radio, which is far more opinionated when _ commercial radio, which is far more opinionated when they _ commercial radio, which is far more opinionated when they are - commercial radio, which is far more opinionated when they are dealing i opinionated when they are dealing with news— opinionated when they are dealing with news and _ opinionated when they are dealing with news and current _ opinionated when they are dealing with news and current affairs, - opinionated when they are dealing with news and current affairs, i. with news and current affairs, i know _ with news and current affairs, i know because _ with news and current affairs, i know because i_ with news and current affairs, i know because i am _ with news and current affairs, i know because i am supposed l with news and current affairs, i| know because i am supposed to with news and current affairs, i- know because i am supposed to be the person— know because i am supposed to be the person that _ know because i am supposed to be the person that gets — know because i am supposed to be the person that gets beat _ know because i am supposed to be the person that gets beat up _ know because i am supposed to be the person that gets beat up on _ know because i am supposed to be the person that gets beat up on those - person that gets beat up on those media _ person that gets beat up on those media and — person that gets beat up on those media and i_ person that gets beat up on those media. and ijust_ person that gets beat up on those media. and ijust think— person that gets beat up on those media. and ijust think that - person that gets beat up on those media. and ijust think that it - person that gets beat up on those media. and ijust think that it is. media. and ijust think that it is where _ media. and ijust think that it is where we — media. and ijust think that it is where we are _ media. and ijust think that it is where we are as _ media. and ijust think that it is where we are as a _ media. and ijust think that it is where we are as a society- media. and ijust think that it is where we are as a society and l media. and ijust think that it is. where we are as a society and not 'ust where we are as a society and not just in_ where we are as a society and not just in the — where we are as a society and not just in the uk_ where we are as a society and not just in the uk but— where we are as a society and not just in the uk but more _ where we are as a society and not| just in the uk but more generally. this asked — just in the uk but more generally. this asked kevin _ just in the uk but more generally. this asked kevin bakhurst, - just in the uk but more generally. this asked kevin bakhurst, kevinl this asked kevin bakhurst, kevin thatis this asked kevin bakhurst, kevin that is where we are, lots of broadcasters have presenters who express opinions but across their output you deemed them to be balanced, why can't the bbc go that way? i balanced, why can't the bbc go that wa ? ., �* �* ~ , balanced, why can't the bbc go that wa ? «' �* �* ., way? i think the bbc has a unique osition way? i think the bbc has a unique position in — way? i think the bbc has a unique position in british _ way? i think the bbc has a unique position in british life, _ way? i think the bbc has a unique position in british life, a - way? i think the bbc has a unique position in british life, a unique i position in british life, a unique funding system, unique accountability, and actually uniquely has its own set of editorial guidelines which go beyond the ofcom guidelines and rightly so. the bbc in many ways sets the

standards or should set for accuracy and impartiality, and you comeback your point about the politics, part of the function of the mid charter review is to help inform our government's view of the bbc, ofcom is an independent regulator, we are trying to bring the evidence to the discussion, we have a look at it and are trying to present it... did discussion, we have a look at it and are trying to present it. . ._ are trying to present it... did you have interactions _ are trying to present it... did you have interactions with _ are trying to present it... did you have interactions with the - have interactions with the government value by putting review together? hat government value by putting review touether? ., ., government value by putting review touether? ., ,, . ., together? not about the specifics, but about the _ together? not about the specifics, but about the mechanism, - together? not about the specifics, but about the mechanism, not - together? not about the specifics, l but about the mechanism, not about what we put into the review which is wholly own work, and no discussion with the government about it. kevin, ours will with the government about it. kevin, yours will be — with the government about it. kevin, yours will be the _ with the government about it. kevin, yours will be the last _ with the government about it. kevin, yours will be the last word, - with the government about it. kevin, yours will be the last word, we - with the government about it. kevin, yours will be the last word, we are i yours will be the last word, we are out of time. thank you forjoining us, kevin bakhurst from ofcom, owen meredith from news media association, roger mosey from selwyn couege association, roger mosey from selwyn college at cambridge university, alice enders, director of research

at enders analysis. we will be back at enders analysis. we will be back at the usual time, but for the moment, thank you for watching, see you soon, goodbye. hello there. an east—west split across the uk as we head through the rest of the weekend with the best of dry and bright weather for eastern areas of england and scotland, as captured by our weather watcher in cambridgeshire. further west, a scattering of showers, sunny spells in between. low pressure centred across northern ireland, some outbreaks of rain at times, quite blustery throughout. a brisk south—westerly wind. sunny spells emerging for eastern areas of northern ireland later, showers for much of western scotland, down through wales, sunny spells in between, watch out for some thunder and lightning. further east sees the best of the sunshine, low 20s in celsius, fairly warm for

the moray of firth, 22 celsius here. as we head through this evening and overnight, where the front continues to move eastwards slowly, approaches western scotland, western wales by the time we get to the end of the night, temperatures dipping to between eight and 12 celsius, much as this morning. milder underneath the cloud towards the west. tomorrow, our weather front creeps ever so slowly eastwards, making inroads into central southern scotland, outbreaks of rain, some of it persistent and heavy for a while, approaching cornwall by the time we get to the end of the day, quite windy tomorrow wherever you are, gusts of wind to the west 40—50mph, the best of the sunshine and brightness, a small chance of an for east anglia, highs of 23 celsius. further north, yorkshire, the third test, sunny spells, temperatures peaking at 19 celsius, staying dry, but it may not be completely dry for glastonbury —

always the chance of showers blowing through on the south—westerly wind, not feeling too bad, and the best of the sunny spells, temperatures of 18 celsius. at the start of next week, the focus of the showers changing. we will see some towards eastern areas of england, much of scotland throughout the day, moving towards the west by the end of the afternoon, there is another approaching weather front, temperatures generally between the high teens, low 20s for most, starting to improve as we head through the middle of the week.

this is bbc news. i'm frankie mccamley with the headlines at 5pm: borisjohnson defies conservative critics of his leadership by insisting there'll be no psychological transformation of his character in the wake of two by—election defeats. if you're saying you want... you want me to undergo some sort of psychological transformation, you know, i think that...our listeners would know that's... that is not going to happen. ukrainian authorities say russia has taken control of the city of severodonetsk after weeks of fierce fighting. norway cancels this year's oslo pride parade, after a deadly shooting at a gay nightclub, which police are treating as an act of "islamist terrorism". abortion clinics start to close in the us after a supreme court ruling removed american women's

constitutional right to abortion.