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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  July 10, 2022 2:30am-3:00am BST

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this is bbc news, the headlines: sri lanka's president gotabaya rajapaksa will step down after protesters stormed the palace and set fire to the prime minister's house. hundreds of thousands of demonstrators descended on the capital colombo after months of protests over economic mismanagement. sri lanka is suffering high inflation and is struggling to import food, fuel and medicine. as japan grieves for the former prime minister shinzo abe, voting begins in elections for the upper house of parliament, two days after his death. there are suggestions his murder could boost
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support for the governing liberal democratic party, of which mr abe was the leading statesman. the uk chancellor nadhim zahawi has added his name to the conservative leadership contest, joining a field of eight people, including two former health secretaries, sajid javid and jeremy hunt. the current favourite is the former chancellor rishi sunak, who resigned from his post on tuesday. now on bbc news, dateline london with shaun ley. hello and welcome to the programme which brings together leading uk columnists with foreign correspondents who write, blog and broadcast from the dateline: london.
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britain's conservatives like to think of themselves as belonging to the natural party of government. this week, it's looked more like the natural party of farce. two cabinet ministers announced publicly that they'd had enough of boris johnson. mrjohnson had not had enough of himself and for 48 hours, he dug in his heels, refusing to resign as prime minister, even as, one after another, members of his government resigned. in all, five cabinet level and 23junior ministers quit because he wouldn't, along with a couple of dozen parliamentary aides. on wednesday evening, the prime minister sacked one of his oldest allies who'd told him to go. another, who'd accepted promotion from him just the night before, then deserted his cause too. mrjohnson insisted the voters had given him a mandate to govern and he would do just that. some feared he was considering a fresh appeal to the nation by calling a general election. a prime minister who'd dissolved parliament once
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when he couldn't get his way might do so again. in fact, come thursday lunchtime, borisjohnson had decided he had to go. he announced his resignation — blaming not himself, but what he called "the herd instinct" of his party. when time is up for tory leaders, they are visited by "the men in grey suits", political grandees. the verdict in the dateline studio is delivered by men and women with grey hairs — in other words, with decades of experience between them of writing and broadcasting about the uk. janet daley�*s weekly column appears in the sunday telegraph, a source of succour to british conservatives. though he hails from the country which hosts the european union, the belgian economist marc roche — who writes for le point in france — shared borisjohnson�*s enthusiasm for brexit. and thomas kielinger has been explaining the british to his fellow germans for a quarter of a century, although he first lived in this country back in the 1960s. a warm welcome to all of you. you have seen so many british prime ministers come in a blaze
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of optimism and glory or force majeure because they've succeeded somebody else who has gone, and then you've seen them end, sadly, as i think it was suggested, always in tears and always the end of a career in failure. janet daley, was this one written in the stars from long ago? or was it genuinely a surprise in the end, how... it wasn't a surprise to anybody — except for boris johnson, apparently. it was remarkable for one thing, in that it was not to do with policy, it was to do with personality. and the removal of him was being demanded, not because he had made some horrendous mistake in the way he had handled government or dealt with legislation, but because he was considered to be dishonorable, and that puts this in a very different category. and the tragedy is, i suppose, if you would call it — comic tragedy — is that even at the end, as you said,
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he referred to this herd mentality that pushed him out, obviously, he felt unjustly, even at the end, he did not have enough self—knowledge to understand that it was his character. in fact, when he was abroad and interviewed about this, he said, "if you're expecting me to reconstruct my personality or my character, that's not going to happen." and that's absolutely right, that's not going to happen. and he was caught out in a series of what have to be assumed to be deliberate lies and obfuscations. he refused, even to the end, after three or four interviewers asked him whether he had made this extraordinary remark about this predatory man, who was making sexual advances... to other men, yep. to other men. he had... this was a man who was in the government, and he was deputy chief whip, so he was sort of in charge of discipline. he was deputy chief whip at that time. he was... boris made a joke, which is a characteristic boris joke. i have known him for 20 years, this was an absolutely
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characteristic boris joke, when he said, "he's pincher by name" — because that is his name — "and pincher by nature." he was asked in three separate interviews that i saw whether it was true that he'd said that, and he evaded those questions all those times, and that is not acceptable. it was his character and integrity that were in question, not his governing policies, and he obviously thought that was deeply unjust. he obviously thought he got the policy right on covid, on the vaccination programme, on the war, so why wasn't that enough? and he did not see that it was simply unacceptable to have a man who could tell lies of that kind or evade the truth in that way as prime minister. and yet, marc roche, there still seemed to be a significant number — though clearly now a minority in the parliamentary conservative party — who still wanted him to stay as prime minister, still in a sense thought the voters had priced in that element of his character, but would still be willing
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to see him continue because of what they saw as his kind of qualities outweighing his flaws. despite... — we knew he was a serial liar. the partners in europe have suffered that, when he was saying one thing one day in private, and then another thing in public, so we knew that, but they thought, i suppose, that because he had such an extraordinary victory in the polls and he had managed to take all of these labour constituencies for the first time, that he will do that again, that he had the magic touch with the public, but i'm very happy he went because, on the whole, it is a marvellous lesson of democracy — you cannot lie. in other countries on the continent, politicians often
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lie and stay and continue. here, he had to go, so i think it shows that the british political system is still based on this rigorous, slightly protestant, slightly... where your private life and your public life have to stick together, which is a good thing. and yet, thomas, his party tolerated this behaviour or misbehaviour on more than one occasion, and some might say it is not a great reflection on the conservative party or conservative parliamentary party, that many of them were willing to go into tv studios, parroting the line he had given him and, clearly, on more than one occasion, not really believing it themselves or not being convincing in delivering it. is there a danger for the conservatives that they might think, "we have cauterized the wound.
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"he's gone." or he will have gone after the election of his successor. but the voters might not be quite as tolerant of that and quite as willing to forgive past sins? the conservatives fell victim to the mantra, | "there is no alternative to borisjohnson. - "he is the natural winner, l he will get us through every problem, every thick and thin, so let's forgive some - of these delinquicies, - as it were," but it was wrong right from the start. because one issue that helped him come out big was brexit, i and dominic cummings said the other day... _ his former adviser. former chief adviser, i said, "why we got him into downing street- was because we had one issue at the time, not _ because we thought he would be such a political great beast." that is a rather, how shall i say, a tragic. explanation of how this party was a one—trick party-
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at the beginning, brexit over all, forgetting that one - of the reasons he won so big had to do with corbyn, - the opponent, who was pretty unelectable, so it was - to be a massive victory, - but there was just one issue. he was untested and the - forbearance that they showed him was beginning to wane more and more... - does that worry you, janet, that he may damage his party, even if he is no longer its leader? he was never properly a team player. he was never really the sort of person who normally gets elected as party leader. i would not take dominic cummings' words absolutely to heart. i know. dominic cummings now loathes him and is out to get him and is delighted at his fall, so i would not take that too seriously. you have to remember, too, that boris was a fantastically popular and successful mayor in the city of london, in a city which is
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normally solidly labour. that was a perfectjob for him because the mayor of london does not have that much power and cannot pass much legislation, so that was fine, and that kind of popularity, that slightly buffoonish quality that was in a mayor was not so great in a prime minister. even without all the serious lying and misleading, that wasn't going to work. he was an actor on . the stage, of course. yeah. and this is a theatre nation. they like theatrical performances. - and we have had theatrical prime ministers before who have still managed to do a good job. yes. — also, they like eccentricity. much longer will they tolerate it than people in germany- would, with such a colourful character like johnson. - and that's why i thought it was particularly- funny that he complained - about the eccentric colleagues who stopped him in this tracks in the middle - of successful management... but the sad thing about him
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is that, as mayor of london, he was cosmopolitan, he was open to the outside world. it became the seventh city in the world, and then he becomes prime minister and he represents a sort of nationalistic view of england, little england. you know, in europe, they talk, "that is not the boris we know." i think there is a misunderstanding there. i mean, i'm very cosmopolitan — i come from an immigrant family, my father did not speak english before he went to school, and i have no problem at all with cosmopolitan cities and ethnic diversity, but i was for brexit and i was for brexit because i think you should elect the people who make you... the result of brexit is about immigration. but let's talk about, before we re—legislate brexit, re—fight that battle, the interesting thing is the european reaction
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to this, in particular, and then we can talk a bit more about the wider world, but in paris, the elysees palace made not much secret of the fact that it is glad he was gone. notwithstanding... i was at the g7 a couple of weeks ago, and they had those... big bonhomie, arm around the shoulders, stuff between macron and boris, cuddling up to each other and all the rest of it in support of ukraine and against putin, but in the end, there was very poor relationships, particularly with some european leaders. oh, it was. it was the worst... why does that matter for the future of the uk? it is essential the uk has a good partnership, not an antagonistic partnership, with the eu — and especially with france on defence and security, because those are the two main armies on the continent, and they have atomic bomb and a permanent seat on the security council, so it is essential, and boris was antagonistic to a point where there was a crisis not seen since de gaulle
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in the '60s, when he refused — quite rightly, i think — to have the british in the european union. the french could not wait to get rid of him. this being said, on the long term, they do not expect too much from the successor because the problems we have, because of brexit, are bigger than one person. is there a worry for you, janet...? you've been consistently and passionately supportive of brexit, and you make the point you did it on the very straightforward grounds of sovereignty, a very clear argument. lots of people voted for it for all kinds of different things and you could argue people voted for it for what they were particularly annoyed about, and that was the skill of the campaign, in the sense that it could bring in all these different concerns, grumpiness and disaffection with politics, all channelled into brexit. are you worried, though, that what gave him that success might undermine
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the achievements of brexit? in other words, that his great success was to convince people of things that did not turn out to be true, like if we stay in the european union, turkey willjoin and then we won't be able to stop immigrants coming in. there is all this money we painted on the side of a bus that will go to the nhs as soon as we leave the eu, etc, and actually the stuff that was genuine and has been achieved by brexit will be undermined by the sense that we were misled? yes — that is quite a complicated argument. a complicated way of putting it! the thing is, you have to remember the problems we are having now and a lot of the adamant remain and rejoin camp want to blame on brexit, these are in fact universal problems. everybody is suffering from hyperinflation, facing economic decline and lack of growth, everybody�*s encountering problems that follow on a pandemic in which everybody�*s economy was put into an induced coma for two years. in the united states, inflation
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is wildly out of control, and they have a much more serious unemployment problem than we have, so it would be a mistake to think people will look at the eu and think, "maybe we should've stayed in." no. that wasn't my point. whether they will feel they were delivered brexit on a false premise. i think the people who believe that have believed it all along. there were people who were very angry about the slogans on the side of the bus... you don't think any of the brexiteers, people who voted for brexit, will feel, "hang on, we voted for this because we trusted you, boris, and now you've misled us"? they have decided they don't trust him, and i do not actually think that is going to impact much on their feelings about brexit. 18% of the british public think brexit has delivered. 18%, while 52% voted for it. and it has not delivered, economically. nobody is having a good time economically. laughter. there's going to... according to the g7, the worst
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growth and the worst inflation. but... partly because we came out of the pandemic and lockdown sooner. we had our little rise before, and now it is dropping again. europe is coming out of lockdown more slowly, came out later, so their catastrophe is delayed. is delayed, right. in the next year — i am willing to put money on this, if i was a betting person — the euro is going to have a crisis, and it does not... we may have a crisis as well, but ours is not going to be worse than europe. talking of brexit, we don't want to go into the ins- and outs of the decision i itself, but europe has been i looking at britain as a countryl so deeply divided by a mistake, so europeans think, that they inflicted upon themselves. i look at british history, - that all foreign dangers that were a peril for britain saw the society unite behind i their leaders, and now- you have an issue like brexit, which is self—inflicted, which we introduced .
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into the political debate, and you are unable to. unite the country behind this unifying idea... - it was not introduced against the will of the people. you can't introduce a national controversy... 52% is not the people. it's enough to win an election. to win an election, but... you can win a general election with less than that! any political leader who got 52% of a general election vote would think they have died and gone to heaven. but for an issue to master the future of the british . political culture... what would you have wanted, 60%? what would you demand? it's in the past. it is not what i demand, it isjust what i see - before me, that the country is still divided and brexit i is not negotiated to the end. we still have the northern ireland protocol.— that is an interesting question, to get back to the domestic scene, the consequences of borisjohnson going. we don't know how soon
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he is going, but in the next couple of months, probably. what are the consequences for his successor, not so much of the way he went, but more the fact they are following borisjohnson, in terms of within... whoever the next leader is. they are coming after, i see. my personal preference would be for somebody who would be such the antithesis of boris johnson... so, boring? shaun laughs. no. ben wallace, who would be... the real criticism of boris was he was not serious. so, disciplined? and ben wallace is profoundly serious. he's the defence secretary. he's the defence secretary who has been conducting a brilliant campaign over in ukraine, and he would be so different and such a profound contrast that i think that the memory of boris would vanish quite quickly. what you need is, in fact, the same thing that happened when thatcher went
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and was replaced byjohn major, who made the vote and ratified the maastricht treaty. that is what you want, and i think ben wallace might be the sort of person... to bring the arguments with europe to an end? yeah. no—one is talking about finalising brexit, but to finish the deal. the country is not arguing about brexit any more! we are, and people like us are, we are still arguing about it, but it's really gone, it is done, it's past. it's the elephant in the room. northern ireland has yet to see | peace, a return to the regionalj government and so forth. you cannotjust stuff| that under the table. but i am sorry to say this, but northern ireland is not hugely at the top of priorities for most people in this country, and it has been a problem for various tragic reasons for a very long time. agreed. what about the identity of the conservative party? is the public clear about what the conservative
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party stands for? no, no. that is one of the more serious problems. quite apart from boris johnson's personality problems, that has been a very serious problem, partly because of these bizarre circumstances, the covid pandemic, the lockdowns, putting the economy into a coma. the rishi sunak argument, which is you must not get into so much debt that you cannot pay it off, and therefore you must not cut taxes, against the alternative argument, espoused by many people... not least the new chancellor of the exchequer, nadhim zahawi... that you should cut taxes, that has to be addressed, and if you address that, there is an argument that if you reduce the levels of taxation, you get more revenue. you get the laffer curve argument. there is a real argument
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going on about fiscal policy. that is my question of, "where does the conservative party- stand?", cannot be answered. they are fighting - the consequences of a worldwide crisis... yes. but at the same time, the official government has said that the budget deficit is unsustainable, because it is over 100% of gdp at the moment, and so the next prime minister should in fact diminish public spending and increase tax, but who, but which prime minister will do that? yeah. that is very difficult, but it is not unique. this is happening in a great number of western democracies, having the same arguments because of the circumstances, and with the war in ukraine and the cost of actual food going up, the imports of wheat and so on, and cost of energy going up because of what russia is doing, we are all
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faced with this problem. try and find a coherent philosophy in the facel of all the problems you rightly outline. very hard. we are in a fighting mode - at the moment, trying to cope with so many absolutely overwhelming issues, . that parties... germany is the same. the support for- the usual parties... now down to 22%. - they have been smashed. macron has been paralysed. for five years, he is completely paralysed. they are worse off politically than we are! i began this programme with a disrespectful remark about the colour of your hair! which i think is beautiful, all of you... and you have more hair than me, even now! laughter. but on a serious note, janet, you came here from the united states when harold wilson was
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prime minister, marc, you came when harold mcmillan was prime minister... and the young one! you came when margaret thatcher was in her prime. how will borisjohnson rate in the panoply of time? he might have thought he was another benjamin disraeli... l a sort of public intellectual writer and so forth, - and politician to boot, - who has to be taken seriously. disraeli was originally was regarded as a joke. he was, and people then grew to like and respect his talent, i and therefore he falls out of the template of britishj politicians to be measured. he was and continuesl to remain an outsider, an eccentric, intellectual, i of great powers and ability, and i think people will try not to rate him as a politician, i but just as a colourful. person who enriched...
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and just happened to become prime minister? and enriched the political- debate and helped us understand it's not quite that easy to be a politician when you lack. certain other talents. he had other talents... great communicator. . yeah, but he forgot about. the entire political rule book. janet? i think he will be rehabilitated as a personality, but he must get out of the way quickly. i wish he had gone on the day he made that statement. it is unacceptable, as i said, for someone whose party has decided he was dishonorable... and so overwhelmingly... yes. he should've allowed dominic raab to be caretaker. the worst prime minister ever, ithink, because he is a serial liar. and for me, british politics has always been that people are moral.
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of course, blair did lie also with iraq, and he is having that cross to bear. anthony eden lied. well, he didn't stay long after. but in the case ofjohnson, he should have never been prime minister. he did not have any of the qualities of seriousness, partnership, gravitas that you need in a prime minister or french president, and unfortunately, there is no alternative... it is a waste of opportunity, so let's hope the next one is better. marc roche, janet daley, thomas kielinger, thank you very much. one name we have not mentioned in history books is david lloyd george... a great and successful wartime prime minister who split his party and continued to undermine it by leading his own faction. borisjohnson might want to reflect on that. that is it for dateline london this week.
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we are back same time next week. goodbye. hello. very little rain in this forecast — but there is heat to talk about. and in fact, as temperatures head up during sunday, to parts of wales, the wider area of england, begin three consecutive days with temperatures in the mid—to—upper 20s, some spots low 30s, which will qualify it as a heat wave right underneath this area of high pressure. there will be cloud to begin with, though, misty low cloud into northern ireland, western scotland, parts of northwest england, north wales. a lot of that's going to disappear and mayjust linger around some irish sea coasts, far northwest scotland staying cloudy, in the northern isles, rain clearing away from shetland. for many, though, it'sjust a case of plenty of sunshine, mid—to—low 20s, the warmest
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parts of northern ireland through eastern scotland, mid—to—high 20s, much of wales and england, 30 in southeast england, somewhat cooling sea breezes around the coasts. it's going to be a hot one on centre court — and notjust wimbledon players and spectators will need to protect against the strong sunshine with high, or indeed, very high uv levels. sunday evening, well, stays fine, very warm, bit of misty low cloud returning towards northwest scotland and maybe still around some irish sea coasts going into monday morning. overnight temperatures mid—to—low teens, but the nights are getting a bit warmer, as well. then during monday, there will be a bit more cloud filtering into scotland and northern ireland, though it will still feel very warm with some sunny spells. an increasing breeze and some rain, some rain heading into the western isles later in the day. for wales and england the sun will turn hazy, but it will still be there and it'll feel hotter. more places getting to that 30 or above celsius mark. and then, going into tuesday, there's a cold front that's moving its way southwards, but it will have barely any rain once it moves through scotland and northern ireland, and it willjust be
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a band of cloud, really. so behind it for scotland and northern ireland, feeling fresher on tuesday, some sunny spells the chance of a shower. although there will be some cloud filtering through wales and england, it will still feel very warm or indeed hot in places, and in fact could well be a hotter day still on tuesday in southeast england into the low 30s before then. just turns a touch cooler going into wednesday. in fact, for the rest of the week, scotland and northern ireland temperatures in some spots below average for the time of year. it will stay very warm across southern areas, and there is the potential for another burst of heat, maybe extreme heat, into next weekend, which we are watching.
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hello and welcome to bbc news. sri lanka is in the grip of chaos and uncertainty after a dramatic 2a hours which has seen the country's president and prime minister pledge to step down. they were left with little choice after demonstrators stormed or set fire to to their official residences, a howl of anger after months of protests about economic mismanagement. our correspondent anbarasan ethirajan reports from the capital, colombo.
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the barricades were meant to keep the

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