welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. 25 years ago, almost 1.5 million christians lived in iraq. now there are around a quarter of a million. and after years of war and sectarian violence, many of them have been displaced from their ancestral homes. can anything be done to reverse this trend toward extinction? well, my guest is archbishop bashar warda of erbil, home to the largest remaining christian community in a country, a region where christianity has deep roots.

does it have a future? archbishop bashar warda, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. welcome, thank you. it's a pleasure to have you here, but i have to ask you, archbishop, how demoralising is it for you as the chaldean archbishop of erbil to see your christian community getting smaller and smaller year after year? yeah, i would say it's dangerously low in number.

challenging, because i'll be honest with you, there is no one reason for our family to stay. i cannot convince them unless we do something for them. yes, we live in a safe environment in kurdistan, in erbil and duhok, but still, challenges, it's everywhere and especially when it comes to the whole region as middle east, christians have lost trust. it's notjust about iraq. speaking about syria, lebanon and the number of the christians declining. so everyone is thinking how to get out safely, while as church leaders, we are trying our best, really, to hold to everyone, especially the needy, the qualified, because over the last 25 years, 30

years also of trafficking and all of these kinds of atrocities also happened. so from one side, it's sad, challenging, frightening, to be honest, that we wake up one day and to be called to serve in another country where my community is there being uprooted from that history. let's talk about security. the so—called islamic state were vanquished in 2017. by then, they had done terrible things to christian communities across the north of iraq. the nineveh plains, communities destroyed, people forced to flee if they were lucky enough to survive. that's over now. but isn't the truth that christians in iraq still feel deeply insecure? yes, the culture, the culture

have not really raised to a level of what we call, we say, yeah, they speak about tolerance, which i hate. i mean, i haven't done anything wrong. when you say they speak of tolerance, you mean one, the authorities, the government? the people, the people, the people. and the muslim community? yeah, they speak about tolerance, tolerance. and i keep telling them, please do not use this word. speak about co—existence, speak about respect, which, luckily, some people in the government is picking up on this and they try really to say, ok, co—existence. as i said, lack of trust. lack of trust. eight months, nine months after the election, there is no government. this is sending really terrifying messages to everyone. and, i mean, there is no government in baghdad.

and this also has its impact on the old people when it comes to poverty, unemployment, security. the difficulties between baghdad and erbil, you could tell, you could tell. it is a country in chaos. it's also a country where it seems christians who even dream of recovering their homes, because tens of thousands were forced to flee and were displaced from their ancestral homes, if they attempt to go back, for many of them, it is impossible to reclaim their properties. it's already been sold three or four times. so with whom you are going to deal? and there are lots of mediators, corruption. and so, yeah, it's, we've lost over 10,000 properties and some people would say more of this. you said in 2019, christians in iraq are, your quote, "close to extinction". is that a trajectory which is now inevitable, extinction? if we do not do something as a government and people, civilsocieties, ngos, it could be, it could be.

as i said, there is no one reason that i could speak to a family to tell them, please stay. yes, it's a historical land. it's the land of our ancestors. blood was shed because our faith, you could tell, but they would say, "ok, bishop, "how am i going to feed my family? "who is going to secure my future "and the future of my children?" so what is it then that motivates your rather extraordinary work in and around erbil? because you, unlike many very senior church people, you've got your hands dirty, not just with matters of faith and theology and the church, you've been involved in founding and operating a university, a hospital,

shops, commercialventures. you seem to have a finger in all sorts of pies. why are you doing that? well, i'm doing that for the whole country. in the �*aos and �*50s and �*60s, we've lost the jewish community. none of the iraqi people have asked themselves what we've lost. nothing. they think it's something older. i mean, they have a land they should go. but we lost qualified people. we lost musicians. until today, the most popular music is being conducted byjewish composers from the �*30s and �*aos and �*50s. we lost the culture and imagine the men dying isjewish, not their medina, not their yazidis, definitely christians. it's all one colour. so what i'm doing is notjust doing it for my people, which i love them, and i do care about them. i do care about them. creating jobs, creating

qualified centres, yes. but i'm doing it for the whole country because the diversity of that part of the country is important. otherwise you could imagine other scenarios. it is unfortunate and i don't wish to sound cynical, but it is, is it not, a drop in the ocean of need in your christian community, but other communities too. i mean, i believe your university has, what, roughly 800 places for students, your hospital has... the capacity is for that number. we are 280 and next year we are expecting... so you're hoping to expand? definitely. and then your hospital has beds, what, for 100 people? no, 50. 57. well, i'm exaggerating then. i mean, let us be honest. it is very small scale and the need is enormous. and again, i'm just wondering

whether it is only faith that keeps you going, because frankly, it seems like you are up against a challenge almost beyond any possible means of reaching it. yeah, but that's what makes life meaningful. a hope that it's there and we, all with the people who are helping me are part of people who are building and strengthening that hope. it's not a hope that comes like a dream. no, we have to work hard, knock doors. not everyone is listening, but those who are listening are really making it much, much easier on me. and i thank god for it. the ventures i mentioned are in a specific neighbourhood, a quarter of a wider erbil called ankawa. and i'm just interested, and this applies not just to your region, but to the fate of all christians across the middle east. is it wise to, in a sense, encourage christians to gather in concentrated communities in one particular place? one could argue and fear that those places might become ghettos and might become easy

targets for those extremists who want to continue with their sectarian violence and persecution. no, that's not my plan. that's not my wish. in fact, i've always said wherever there is... because socially speaking, whenever there is a christian community, yazidi community, people tend to gather to strengthen each other. this is a social fact. what i'm saying, 0k, ankawa is one city of three, four big spots. let's work on strengthening all of this together. not really, i mean, the danger is there, but what i am doing always in my work and when i go out, i'm not talking just about ankawa, i'm encouraging everyone, please, there are certain areas which needs help. please go there.

and that's why i work with my brother bishops and priests always working together to strengthen, otherwise... butjust to be specific, is ankawa, as you envisage it, a fully and completely christian community, or do you want muslims, yazidis, others to be integrated in that community? we do have, we do have christian community of all churches. we have also muslim communities living peacefully with our yazidi community. the university in itself also is open to all, schools, open to all. see, the reason i'm asking this is because you've reflected over years on the nature of relationships between christians and muslims. and at times, as i've been doing some reading about things you've said, you've appeared to reflect that there is something about islam which inevitably leads christians to feel like, even if they are accepted,

even if they're peaceably living side by side with muslims, they have a form of second class status. is that what you believe? we have to be honest. i always being honest with my brothers, muslims and imams and telling them the second article of the constitution. when it's based the constitution on islamic sharia, the logic will take you to those who are not muslims will be second hand. this is not an insult. this is just the fact. if you based the whole constitution on any sharia or any religion, those who are not of the same religion will be... so, my question is, how can christians, in your view, ever feel fully equal and free, in predominantly muslim society... they will never. they will never? no. this is not an insult. this is just a fact to tell every good muslims think this way. you are giving priority to the sharia, to your religion.

the natural, the logic will be those who are not muslims would not be considered as first citizens. see, i'mjust looking at the words of another interesting and influential voice in the middle east christian community, harry hagopian. he's an international lawyer. he was executive secretary of the inter church committee injerusalem, assistant general secretary of the middle east council of churches, based in beirut, in lebanon. harry hagopian says we shouldn't, as christians, be in any way exclusivist in our approach to the work we do. he says, quote, "today, perhaps more than at any other time, "christians and muslims are condemned to solidarity. "it is only in solidarity with each other that we can hope "to vanquish tyranny, barbarity and fanaticism." do you agree? there was never in the history

that christians have been sectarian when it comes to their schools, hospitals, anything like that. i mean, you could go to, i mean, i'm sure you travelled to lebanon and you've seen what the christians institutions has offered to the whole country. yes, we have to unify all the efforts in fighting extremism. but do you work with muslims or do you regard your work as entirely in the christian community? every day. every day, whenever i see any, i meet any imams, i'm addressing these issues friendly and without, really, i mean, attacking just to tell them this is the truth and this is the result of 1,400 years. we have to learn from this history. do you think then, do you agree with mr hagopian, who worries that sometimes the international christian supporters of christians in iraq and in the wider

middle east, they fail to actually embrace the muslim community. they see things, according to mr hagopian, in an exclusively christian prism, focusing on christian persecution, when the fact is, of course, that many other groups, muslims, yazidis, many others, are also facing persecution across the middle east region. he says, "let's remember that." do you remember that? well, speaking of my experience, the people that i've dealt with, like, people like ac and bishop conferences, knights of columbus, all the people who have helped me, they never said and encouraged me to only look at them. whoever comes to the door, looking for help, we are offering that help.

of course, of course, there are some donors, for example, who would be interested, but this will not exclude others. and that's why we made good friendships during a time of crisis and isis with so many people who are in need from all the communities. because i've said it many times, yes. if isis was behind displacement of 125,000 christians, but isis also was behind displacement of three million sunnis from mosul and anbar and salahuddin. i've said that several times. i've said that isis have done damage to islam and to muslims in these governorates more than, but of course, i am a bishop, so i have to speak for my people. understood. and as a bishop, i want to ask you about one very sensitive subject, and that is conversion.

some muslims, particularly islamists and more extreme muslims, accuse christians of actively seeking out converts, undermining the muslim community. what is your view on conversion? do you encourage, welcome, embrace the notion of iraqi muslims converting to christianity? well, i lived with, i mean, my community lived with islam for more than 1,400 years. and according to islamic sharia, if you live under the islamic rulers, you have to respect the sharia. there is no conversion, no evangelisation. once you start this activity, you are waging a war against islam and jihad would bejustified. so we respect this, i mean, all the way. however, however, ifanyone would come to my door, muslim, asking about christ, christianity to tell, i will tell him who we are. see, that's very diplomatically put.

your boss, i guess, that is the chaldean patriarch, louis rafael sako, he said, "muslims are part of our mission. "we must love them. "if christians want to convert to islam, that is fine. "and if muslims want to convert to christianity, "that is also ok, i guess..." but it's not ok with the constitution and with the sharia. he will be killed and i will be... that's what i'm getting to, i suppose. is it responsible to say to the world, if muslims want to convert to christianity, that is also 0k. i understand why he said it. but the truth in iraq, and you know it much better than me, is that any muslims who do convert, they face... death. and i will be endangering my community. i mean, that's the fact. i mean, we have to say as it is, we are not blaming anyone. get rid of, i mean, at least try to go to the constitution, change it, then we could speak with muslims. listen, there is nothing in the constitution that

prevents us from this. but once it's there, i have to respect, otherwise... yeah, i'm just wondering about the reality on the ground. i mean, there you sit in erbil. i don't know if you're aware of all of the cases, but there have been cases, christianity today reported just last month converts to christianity widely being reported as ousted by theirfamilies, removed from their homes, threatened, "to the point of death "where fleeing is their only survival option." that's a fact. why we are surprised with this? this is the islamic sharia, which says, as long as you live under the islamic authority, respecting the principle of sharia, you live in the land of islam and land of peace. once you try to convert to evangelise, you are raging a war against islam and jihad would be justified against you. this is there. i'm not, i'm not making up. this is the fact which our

ancestors have respected in a certain period of history. they were paying jizya. thank god there was nothing of that. it was a condition for isis, but that's what, where we are. so here you are in london at an international conference in defence of religious freedoms around the world, but in particular, in countries where religious freedom is under threat. you, in the past, have seemed quite disappointed by some of the lack of support and assistance you've received from western churches and western governments, and you appear to ascribe that to a fear in the west of upsetting islamic governments and islamic communities, a sort of fear of islam, being accused of islamophobia. do you still think that is present? yeah, still some governments feel it would be showing favouritism if they would help. you don't get the help

you feel you need? from the government? no, no, no. the governments in europe will not deal directly, except hungary. hungary made an example. they said, ok, those are persecuted people. christians and yazidis, we'll go and help them there, where they are, but others have, are reluctant. and i hope and i've said it yesterday, i hope that the government here will follow also the example probably of hungary. us aid there. i mean, they've started dealing with faith—based communities, with churches, condition that they are qualified to receive the help because there are certain bureaucratic issues. that's fine. if we are ready to receive help and be within the mandates... this is difficult, isn't it? i mean, the west has a complex recent relationship with iraq, and we all know what happened with western intervention in iraq. so i'm not sure that many in your own country necessarily want to see reliance

on assistance and help from the united states, the united kingdom and other western countries, do they? but if you check the date, i mean, the numbers of the help, the amount of help that iraq is receiving also from international countries for different areas is huge, it still is there, and still iraq is seeking loans and grants. that's much more about perceived national security interests and geopolitics than it is about a desire to help minority communities like yours. being there and maintaining these cultures, these minorities, is part of the security, part of the building of security of the whole country. it's a large picture that should be, it's a holistic approach that the government should take into consideration. and you are not showing favourites. and if you help a christian school, which has 90% of its students, muslims,

i mean, where are the difficulties? and the same thing when it comes to hospital, clinic, you could tell. interesting, you talk about that holistic approach. and ijust wonder, as we close this interview, why do you feel it matters so much that a christian community, a christian presence is maintained in a country like iraq, where, of course, it has a long, long history, but it may not have a future. does that matter? yes, because first, i do believe in the words that people, muslim people will tell me, we like you, we love you, we want you to stay. ok, i'll take it. they say it, ok, i'll take it. then i come back, 0k, help me in that sense. and i like it when they start listing all the contributions of iraqi christians, qualified doctors, nursing, teachers, professors.

i like it and i like it more because the future of the country depends on the diversity. that's a mosaic. it's wonderful, wonderful. everyone have contributed in making iraq what we know as iraq. the mosaic must be maintained. it should be and we are responsible for it. archbishop bashar warda, i thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk, thank you. thank you. hello there. for most of the country, tuesday was a slightly cooler day. we had much more cloud around.

it was thick enough even to give a bit of rain here and there. but despite the cloud, here in london, it was hot. temperatures over 30 celsius again. much further north, preparing for the open at saint andrews, it's cooler. temperatures were in the low 20s despite the sunshine. that cooler, cleaner, fresher air is moving down from the north following this band of cloud that's still bringing one or two spots of rain. so, for much of the country, it will be a more comfortable night. these are the temperatures by the morning. still, that uncomfortable warmth, though, in the southeast of england. and across southern parts of england, could start quite cloudy in the morning, even one or two spots of rain left over. that's slowly moving away. we will see one or two showers for northern ireland and mainly in scotland, sunny spells too. much more sunshine, though, arriving across england and wales than we had on tuesday.

those temperatures continuing to slide away ever so slightly, but still another hot day in the southeast and east anglia, and in london 30 degrees not out of the question. heading into thursday, we've got this west—northwesterly breeze bringing more cloud and more showers to northern ireland, scotland, perhaps a few into northern england, but further south across england into wales, it is still sunny, it is still dry. but those temperatures continuing to just drop away a little. highs of the more manageable 27 celsius in the southeast of england. this area of high pressure is tending to build in across the uk, where we've got this weak weather front arriving from the atlantic, and that will be responsible for more cloud and maybe a bit of rain for northern ireland pushing across scotland, perhaps northern england, that should move away, skies will brighten. once again across my southern parts of the uk, it is going to be fine and dry with light winds. still pretty warm out there, those temperatures typically into the mid—20s. still only around 19—20 celsius through the central belt of scotland. it's into the weekend that really things start to warm up, not so much for scotland and northern ireland, and the far north it of england, temperatures typically into the mid—20s,

but for many other parts of england and into wales, we are going to find some extremely high temperatures developing over the weekend into the start of next week. we've got that extreme heat warning from the met office. so in the strong sunshine, those temperatures will really be shooting up. 36 celsius there in london. temperatures could even get higher than that.

welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore,

i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines.