this is bbc news. we will have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour as newsday continues straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. around the world, there are signs of deepening worker discontent. inflation is outstripping wages. global corporations stand accused of putting profits before people, while many governments see organised labour as a threat. why then is the union movement seemingly in retreat? have workers lost their faith in collective action?

well, my guest is long time boss of the international trade union confederation, sharan burrow. do workers have problems that unions cannot fix? sharan burrow in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. good evening. good to have you on the show. let's look at what is happening in the world right now. we have a spike in energy costs right around the world. we have rising inflation in many countries and a squeeze on the cost of living. how grim do you think

the prospects for your members, for workers around the world are right now? well, i think you have to take note of workers. they're on strike all around the world. they can't live on the wages that they're being paid. they know that this is a huge injustice when it's profits that are driving inflation. in fact, the union movement has a new term. it's called "pro—flation", because it's a myth to say that wages are driving inflation. even the eu confirmed just this week that there is no feedback loop between wages and inflation, and it's not likely that there will be while real wages remain negative. so we're really headed towards stagflation, if not recession, because of the foolish policies of too many central banks raising interest rates. we are not in a period where we can discount the fact that if you have growth way below profits and inflation, then you are in fact facing

grim economic circumstances. and unless we share prosperity, workers are the victims. but aren't you trying to reinvent economics if you argue that workers pushing for massive pay rises right now is not going to be inflationary? all the evidence over many years suggests that once you get into that wage price spiral, it's very hard to get out of it. well, first of all, look at the wage claims. they're hardly massive demands, given the profits that, as i said, are really driving inflation. that's the key we see. with price rises in energy, with price gouging, with governments who are failing to regulate energy markets, failing to put the windfall tax on profits that we need, and to share that prosperity, then you're creating a low growth future against an inflationary spiral

from prices and profits. and workers and their families are the victims. there is no... but, sharan, i do get your point, but my response is simply that if workers push for wage rises — and i'm going to talk to you about the uk to start with, because the uk has an inflation rate of nine knocking on 10% — but there are key sets of workers, from the rail industry to the health service, doctors, barristers, all pushing for double digit rises in their wages or salaries. and ijust put it to you one more time that if they get what they want — that is above inflation rises — we are going to see that wage price spiral that has become so familiar to us. and they'll be harming their own interests in the long run, won't they? let's look at economicjustice and then economic theory. first of all, there is no evidence to show that wage rises will simply drive up inflation.

the facts are clear — we are in a period of what we call pro—flation, where profits, prices and price gouging and profits are driving inflation. workers in more than 40% of countries actually have wages that are lower than pre—covid levels, while you have 573 new billionaires and more and more people are being pushed into poverty. we know that the risk of inflation with the current ukraine crisis — the abhorrent invasion of ukraine by russia — is indeed risking notjust the price spirals we're seeing everywhere in energy and food, but in fact, it's risking famine in many parts of the world. now, let's go back and have a look at economic theory and see where it has failed repeatedly. we haven't seen these circumstances for stagflation, indeed, potentially recession, because of the collapse

of growth. and in fact, when you look at growth versus wages and inflation, wages are running at about less than a third of inflation right now. so, let's be realistic and say to central banks, "manage the economy for people, not for those continuing to make outrageous profits while other people risk starvation." you talk about the outrageous profits, but then you acknowledge that, actually, part of the inflationary spiral right now is caused by the russia invasion of ukraine, what that's done to food and energy prices. so that's hardly all about profiteering, is it? no, no, i absolutely dispute that, because the governments have failed to regulate the market, failed to do what they claim they don't like, which is indeed monopoly or oligopoly power. we have around four major companies right now controlling both the production

and the distribution of food globally. and i can tell you the top company in this regard, carhill, actually has more than ten billionaires in its family alone. so, you've got to look at the wage gaps. you've got to look at the failure to distribute the profits, the incredible wealth that the world has generated, that workers have generated, and say, "how do we run fairer economies?" what i want you to address is whether workers have some sort of responsibility, too, particularly when it comes to productivity. isn't it incumbent on unions and workers to talk to corporates, to bosses, and ensure that working practices are improved, efficiency is improved, and that will improve global productivity? well, there's a whole range of assumptions there that are simply not true. go back to the 1980s and look forward and see how profits

and productivity have indeed increased wealth, quadrupled or more in those four decades, while labour income share has gone like a giant roller—coaster downwards, repeatedly. why is it that governments have failed to regulate both labour markets for secure work, to promote collective bargaining, to ensure minimum living wages, wages on which people can live with dignity, they're the global standards that have failed to be enforced, and at the same time, stop corporates gathering monopoly power, price gouging at the expense of working people. this has to be turned around. we need to find an economic compass that is indeed married with a moral compass, where people and the planet, i might add, given the absolute example of the heatwave of today, are at the forefront of our work policy considerations, not an economy

for the rich. so you are all for strikes, are you? i mean, again, just looking at the uk, where i'm sitting in london, we have railway workers threatening another round of strikes, which are, of course, deeply damaging to the national economy. in other countries, workers are talking about a wave of strikes. your position representing international labour is strikes are the best weapon we've got. is that right? strikes are a last resort everywhere. but if governments, if employers won't sit at the table, won't bargain with workers, won't share profits equitably in the interests of balanced economies, then workers have no choice. of course we support them. if they're desperate and they can't feed their families, you saw all the appreciation of our incredibly courageous workers who went to work to save our lives during

the pandemic, from health care workers to service workers, to transport and logistic workers, everybody clapped them, but no one has paid them. now, let's really be fair about this and say if unions and governments, if decent employers sit at the table and look to balance an economy, to manage it so that we are sharing prosperity, we are sharing that productivity that you falsely declared wasn't there, and yet all the statistics show that it has risen markedly. we can do better. we can do much better than relying on old economic orthodoxy that sets us up for more failure. all right. yours is a powerful message, sharan burrow, but it sharan burrow, but it doesn't seem like a message which is hitting home with workers across the world. why is it that union membership

is declining and the membership of your own organisation through the affiliates around the world is also in steep decline? people are walking away from trade unions. they don't believe that you can deliver for them. that's not actually true, can i say. if you look at your own country, the uk is growing, the tuc is growing. if you look at the fact that the world's workers... in a 25 year trend, union membership in the uk is significantly down. it's down below 10% in france and in the united states. and if you look at the overall international picture in the oecd nations as a whole, union membership has declined significantly in the last 20 years. well, maybe you should answer the question, because i can tell you if you want to take a time series, fine, but we've also had in that time series massive restructuring of the economy, some incredibly unfair transitions. the manufacturing sector — always very strongly unionised

— has been decimated by a global model of economy that has not worked for working people, that has damaged the climate. what i'm telling you is in the last three years, you will see membership rising in key countries... well, what i'm telling you... ..in the us, in the uk, in europe, but also... you know, you can look at the figures and you can try to be optimistic about them. i'm just asking you to face reality. here's one extraordinary, it was one extraordinary. your reality or my reality? well, here's a reality you're going to have to wrestle with in the future, because it's about the future, it's about young people. in 2021, in the united kingdom, only 4.3% of workers between 16 and 2a were members of a trade union. the next generation of workers... and how many of those young people are in secure jobs? how many of them have to depend on internet mediated jobs,

which are informal work, where the employer takes no responsibility and governments don't regulate? how many are on short term contracts in casualised service areas. when we do justice with the labour market, for young people, for women, for people of colour, then i can tell you unions are the only ones advocating for the laws that are inclusive of all. so, yes, if you want to look at young people and their inclusion in unions, fine. but let's look at what we've dealt to those unions as governments and countries, to those workers who are in insecure work. the damage to young people's security is a scandal, a global scandal. and again... hang on, let me... it's a problem we could address. let me ask you about another aspect of what you do.

you're the confederation of international trade unions. it's not yourjob just to look after what's happening in western europe. of course, you sit in brussels, but your perspective is global. it must worry you that one of your vice presidents in the international tuc, sanjeeva reddy from india, has basically, for years, been saying that your own organisation caters really only for western workers. he says you're more concerned about the problems of developed nations, you don't care about the interests of asia, and africa and poorer countries, and you personally, he says, although you've been in the job that you've got for a dozen years or so, you've never worked closely with ground level industrial workers. you come from a teaching background in australia, hardly have any experience, he says, with, for example, unorganised agricultural workers. are you out of touch? i would actually say to you, if sanjeeva reddy was here right now, he and i would agree 100%, that until governments

regulate the labour market so that 60% of our informal, of our workforce, is not in informal work now, notjust in developing countries but in developed countries, until we actually have a labour market that is inclusive. so tell me who's fought for universal social protection? eho�*s fought for minimum living wages? who's fought for collective bargaining for all workers? i can tell you right now, this morning, we've had discussions about how you drive minimum living incomes and social protection for informal workers. now, sanjeeva is absolutely right about an economy where you have 93% of the workforce, imagine a middle income economy, india, 93% of the workforce in informal work. that is a scandal of incredible proportions. why have governments failed

to regulate the labour market? why has the global corporate power wanted to keep workers without rights? again, we come back to the reality of profits before people. all right, but sanjeeva would probably ask you a very simple question. why are you sitting there in a comfortable office in brussels? why isn't the international tuc based in delhi, or lagos or sao paolo? well... why can't you send that kind of symbolic message to workers around the world that you actually are focused on their needs? well, maybe we ought to have a look at the itc, because we do have an office in delhi, we do have an office in sao paulo and in indeed in uruguay. we do have an office in togo, one of the poorest countries in africa. yeah, but... so we are not sitting in brussels, my friend. you might want to be provocative, but i can tell you our organisers are out in the field.

we have regional secretaries. we have, in fact, an inclusive labour movement. my president is a nigerian man, one of the best union men. he's driven up minimum wages, he fights for social protection. he's now on the front lines of climate and just transition, like many of our leaders. i know, sharan. sharan burrow, i... ..not arguing that his workers would not be subject to poverty ..out there arguing that his workers would not be subject to poverty wages, and i'll tell you how that would have come about, through union dialogue. i don't want to be provocative, but i do want to be rigorous. and one way in which i want to be rigorous is to ask you about a particular example of a stand you took in which you then modified. you made a very strong stand suggesting that qatar's record on worker rights back in the early 2010's, 2011, 2012 was so poor that they didn't deserve to have the football world cup.

by 2017, you'd completely changed your mind. you hailed their reforms in their indentured worker system. you said, and i'm quoting directly, "i stand with qatar." and yet in the years since then, we've still seen hundreds, hundreds of construction workers die in the process of building those stadia for the forthcoming world cup. why did you change your position so completely? because we did what the union movement does, we fought qatar to a standstill. we took them, the highest level of complaint, to the ilo. and then when they agreed, we negotiated. the laws have changed. that kafala system, or indentured worker system you just described is dead. workers are free now. i tell you what's dead, there's still hundreds and hundreds of workers who are dead.

excuse me. do you want to know the truth or not? there are laws in qatar now that guarantee migrant workers justice. there are labour courts in qatar. they were not there. there are not hundreds of workers dying in qatar now. because i can tell you. you don't want to know! do you want to know the work the union movement does or not? this is something the movement is very proud of. yes, there are still issues of implementation, for sure. but then look in the uk, you've found pockets of slavery in the uk. you have an anti slavery law. we've changed the laws in qatar. we'll continue to fight for implementation, just as we will everywhere. but rather than just complaining, we've actually set out to campaign to have the dialogue with a country. we're now demanding change

in the uae because it still hides behind laws that people don't have access. show me a movement, any movement, that actually does that work on behalf of migrant workers, notjust complains about it, that's good, we have many allies who raise exploitation. who raise exploitation, who actually sit at the table and make sure the laws and the justice system is in place. i'm very proud of the union movement around qatar. are you proud of the union movements in australia and south africa who are staunchly defending the coal industry in both of those countries? cos it seems to me you've got a problem. you deliver messages at davos and all those other summits you go to saying workers of the world are committed to a green future. and then some of your key members in your own home country, australia, and in countries like south africa, where the coal industry is a huge employer, a massive economic factor, they actually defend the right to establish new coal mines. well, that's not true

either, you know. yes, you have people who are frightened for theirjobs, but you understand that better than anybody. you've seen the devastation of unjust transitions in the uk. but if you have a look at the south african labour movement, cosatu, along with ourselves and indeed the european union, the us government, the european regional development bank, we raise the money, indeed the seed money, 8.5 billion just last year, to allow south africa to transition its energy source to renewable energy. there's a joint dialogue table. this is serious business. and what about the australian mining and energy union, which supported the massive controversial adani mine project back in 2019, saying it was vital for the jobs of australian workers? were you with them on that? they had no offer

of a just transition. if you have workers who are frightened because nobody takes responsibility for theirfamilies, their children, for the jobs that they are worried about not having, of course they'll fight. but why have we spent more than a decade fighting forjust transition, setting upjust transition measures? now, you can be anti—union, you can take some understandable examples and ramp them up as the whole, but let me tell you, no one, no one has fought more than the union movement, led internationally and nationally forjust transition to transition to a net zero economy with the measures that protect and growjobs. a final thought, sharan. we're almost out of time.

you can be anti union, fine way you do it but let's look at who has some prescriptions for making sure our communities don't die a quick that there arejobs good jobs. a quick final thought. this conversation has talked about whether the union movement has a future. lots of things have changed and you've acknowledged it. and young people particularly are at the forefront of change in the labour market. we see much more now atomisation of the workforce, partly post—covid working from home, partly different rules of engagement between workers and their employers. do you think collective worker action through trade unions has a future? i absolutely do. and look at the starbucks workers in the us, more than 200 us elections in a system that is stacked against workers and their unions. look at the workers in deliveroo, in uber, in all those so—called gig economy areas where

the employer — allowed by the government — simply denied an employment relationship and they're winning the battles in court. look at the young people standing up for climate and transition, wanting the jobs of the future. i'm very confident that the union movement has a very healthy future. all right. and to be honest, if we weren't on the front lines of fighting for workers, for theirjobs, for rights, for decent work, but if we weren't also fighting for our democracies, for climate action and just transition, who would be, who would be? sharan burrow, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk, but we've run out of time. thank you very much indeed. thank you.

hello. after that exceptional heat to start the week, for many of you, it was significantly cooler on wednesday compared with tuesday. tuesday, of course, we saw temperatures approach around a0 celsius in a number of spots. for some, it was actually 10—17 degrees cooler, but to put it into a bit of perspective, those temperatures still well above where we should be for ajuly afternoon. the exceptional heat had pushed a bit further eastwards, record—breaking heat in denmark. all that heat over the next couple of days pushes its way southwards and eastwards, and then into the weekend, we start to see it build once more in across parts of the uk. not, though, at the levels we've seen this week. as for thursday, as we start the day, it's going to be largely dry day for many. there will be some rain around, and it's a bit cooler still compared with what we've experienced on wednesday. now, the drier weather comes courtesy of an area of high pressure trying to push in from the west. we've still got the legacy of a front sitting across eastern areas.

we saw a lot of humid air, temperatures still sitting in the mid if not high teens for one or two first thing thursday morning. fresher conditions in the west, but this is where we'll start with the best of the sunshine. northern ireland, wales, southwest england having a pretty decent day, just one or two showers around. sunny spells across scotland, a few showers for the mainland, but for the bulk of england, away from the southwest, lots of cloud, some outbreaks of rain and drizzle here and there, many will be dry. around the coast, it may be quite sunny. sunny too towards the channel islands, but a bit of a breeze blowing down through the likes of east anglia, and here, temperatures dropping back to normal. still a little bit above normal across the south, 211—25 celsius. now, into thursday evening and through into friday, we'll start to see that cloud sit in place, but then a few more showers push their way northwards, the winds shifting direction slightly.

it does mean temperatures still won't drop a huge amount, a cooler day — a cooler night — i should say, across eastern parts of the country, but still with temperatures in the mid—teens across the south. so, for friday, showers at a greater chance of seeing, particularly heavy ones across parts of wales, the midlands, maybe rumbling up into northern england, could see some flashes of lightning, rumbles of thunder as well. some through the english channel, which could get close to the south coast and affect the channel islands for a time. only a few showers for scotland and northern ireland. all of us will see temperatures closer to thejuly norm, for one or two, a little bit below. as i said, heat builds back in this weekend,

welcome to newsday. reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: a clear and present danger — president biden pledges to make the biggest ever investment to combat climate change, but stops short of declaring an emergency. i will do everything in my power to clean our air and water, protect our people's health, to win the clean energy future. his warning comes as wildfires continue to rage across europe. firefighters struggle in the heatwave to tackle flames in greece, spain and italy. the former chancellor, rishi sunak, and foreign secretary, liz truss, will go head to head in the race to become the next british prime minister.

and feeling their way through shanghai's lockdown —